AH-64 Hourly Flying Cost

[ORAC]

I thought the AAC was supposed to be able to do things cheaper than the RAF.... :ooh:

Defence of the Realm (http://defenceoftherealm.*************/2007/11/money-down-drain.html)

In response to questions raised by the redoubtable Ann Winterton MP, on the costs of operating military aircraft, we have received from the MoD figures which are truly mind-blowing.

Lady Winterton asked for the hourly operating cost including crew time of the Nimrod MR2, the Chinook, the Apache attack helicopter (operated by the Army Air Corps) and the Tornado GR4 aircraft. (Link to follow).

The reply from defence minister Bob Ainsworth, was that the total cost per funded flying hour for the Nimrod was £30,000 per hour, the Tornado £33,000 and the Chinook a relatively modest (by comparison) £24,000. But the absolute mind-blowing figure is the Apache which costs out at a staggering £46,000 per hour.......

[serf]

They will also quote over £2000 for the mighty gazelle, I would like to know how they get that!

[Tourist]

The people who do the costing do not use a level playing field.
Some aircraft get the cost of the airbase and all its facilities factored into the equation under the ludicrous theory that it would not be there if not for the aircraft, and some do not.
Just look at the cost of the Navy Jetstreams for example relative to the cost of the dominies and 146 etc!

[BluntM8]

As I understand it, from having had the (dis)pleasure of selling into wider markets :yuk:, the quoted hourly cost of the aircraft in these cases include everything from fuel and oils through to the aircrew's time, self-insurance costs (a whole different problem!) and even the depreciation on the asset!

It's quite a big area to work out the actual hourly cost and I never enjoyed doing it!

[charliegolf]

ORAC

Are you planning to hire one!:}

CG

[The Helpful Stacker]

Why does it come as any surprise that an experienced air force can operate complex modern aircraft cheaper than a comparitively inexperienced smaller flying branch?

[airborne_artist]

Pprune does not like blog$pot.com (why?) so here is the link to ORAC's source: http://tinyurl.com/37y4k2

[Bertie Thruster]

could this be the reason that Apache pilots on the 6 months in the UK between operational tours are rumoured to get no flying until just before being posted back out?

[SirToppamHat]

THS

Please let's not turn this thread into yet another inter-Service 'banter' competition.

As Blunt M8 and Tourist point out between them, the figures presented are frequently dependant on which poor sod has been asked to work them out. A few years ago, I was asked to work out how much it cost the RAF to provide one hour's worth of control, but what looked like a relatively simple task was actually a nightmare to get into and I ended up providing about 6 different answers depending what was factored-in to the overall cost.

ISTR the estimates being pushed back up the chain and whoever wanted the info would simply have selected the answer required, but presented it in the context of what was factored-in. The point I am getting round to is that these figures are meaningless unless we know what is and isn't included.

STH

[goudie]

If the cost per hour is based on total support costs i.e. the support cost is there as a constant, then surely the more hours flown will become more cost effective with only maintenance and fuel being the actual cost. If you buy a new car, tax, insure and garage it, then use it only twice a year, cost per mile is more than using it every day'
Or is that an over simplification?

[JackRyan]

Nine tucanos! What a fantastic CAS asset!

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/%7Egarys/images/newspics/fidae5.jpg

[Fortyodd2]

Let's put this into perspective. If you think that the cost of Apache is expensive, what would be the current cost of not having them?
I'm sure that 3 PARA, 2 Mercian, The Royal Anglians and the Royal Marines would be only too pleased to tell you. Let's not forget what they were purchased for in the first place - whether or not it was envisaged that their usage would be so high or so effective.

[Kitoro Kid]

Hi Guys , just to put it into context , the rough hourly cost of running a civ B747-400 is in the region of £10,000 per flying hour , at current exchange rates of course , this includes maint , crew etc... everything. It is based on an aircraft approx 8 to 12 years old and flying 350 to 400 hours per month , less hours the hourly cost would increase , maybe the high cost of military aircraft is low flying hours?

[Roadster280]

If a 744 costs £10k/hr, then a highly bespoke single-purpose machine at £45k an hour isn't so expensive IMHO.

However, this entire debate is meaningless. The AH64 program costs £x. Not £y per use. I'm sure AS90 costs a damn sight less per round, and surely for £46k one could have rather a lot of AS90 rounds on the ground. But then it wouldn't be doing the same job. For £46k, one could have a truckload of grenades, but not doing the same job.

If the country is fighting two wars simultaneously, and failing to learn the lessons of history (see Nazi Germany for a good pointer), one of which is in a country where we got our arses kicked despite having infintely superior kit, and where the Russians got their arses kicked despite having an entire army on task, then least we can do is pay for it!!!!

Edited to add: Or rather, the least YOU can do is pay for it, since my taxes go to Uncle Sam these days, and that's a whole different issue.

[Chaffers]

I'm not sure the flying hour cost is any fault of the AACs. The Apache is supposed to be in a league of its own in terms of maintenance required.

Capable aircraft but bloody expensive to operate.

[timex]

I wonder if they have also taken into consideration the wear and tear on the various weapon systems and other rotatables that are being consumed at a far greater rate than expected?

THS, why go down that line, its b******s and you know it.

[Fortyodd2]

...............and, of course, expensive or not, it's the only tool left in the cupboard capable of doing the job. What else do we have available that could be deployed in it's place??? :uhoh:

[Gnd]

Surprisingly, the figures are wrong and not as note worthy as you all have made out.

The real question is - is the cost of flying a Tornado, Apache, Herc, Lynx, Typhoon, Harrier, Gazelle, Tocanno, Squirrel, Merlin, Chinook or even black hawk worth it when it saves one of your lives?

I suggest it is and that is the true mark of value?

Here endeth the thread!!!!!

[SirToppamHat]

I wrote:

The point I am getting round to is that these figures are meaningless unless we know what is and isn't included.


Then Gnd wrote:

Surprisingly, the figures are wrong and not as note worthy as you all have made out.

How very very dare you ... ;)

STH

[Two's in]

I don't care how many times they go up-diddly-up-up, they're still gits!

Courtesy of Black Adder

[Chicken Leg]

Why does it come as any surprise that an experienced air force can operate complex modern aircraft cheaper than a comparitively inexperienced smaller flying branch?


I suppose we should be grateful that we got four sensible replies in before one of them turned up! :rolleyes:

[foxtrot tango]

For what it's worth on the other side of the pond the quoted figure is $5K per flight hour though that figure does not include the expendables that go bang. My guess is that it is DOC only and does not include a lot of the fixed costs.....Or perhaps the current rate of exchange is to blame.

[vortexadminman]

Where the **** did they get that figure from!!! I may be an Ah driver so therefore thick but that is way out of bounds......... I know what I am paid, the techs are paid, rough cost of most spares but **** me that s a lot!!!! Who does the accounts there, and if they will own up would you be my accountant for tax claims cause I could really use your help.
Does that take in to account buying the frame, fuel,muntions,MT, cleaners, local bobby, Dennis the cleaner (NI for those to young to remember) 200 odd civil servants for paperwork, plus the 21.50 a day JPA claims for Ah drivers going on course or something..........that figure is pure bollocks or rounding up in a wild way. Even my better half knows I round up on money she has spent and round down in beer I have consumed, guess she should have a look at those figures.

[ralphmalph]

If Dennis "AKA Grand Tangerine Master" was included on the wages then the cost would double!.

How else could he fund his regular trips to the orient and his "friendly" girlfriend! ;-)

Ralph

[Chaffers]

I'm sure I've seen a figure of $5k per hour just in spares for the Apache though only getting 150 hours before you might as well buy a new airframe does seem just a bit fishy...

Then again I thought Hellfires were relatively cheap though the last batch seemed to work out at $170k each, 10 times what I thought..... At full load a single Apache could be easily carrying $3mil worth of ordinance.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

That figure does carry a shed load of overheads. An eighth of the value reflects part of the cost of 16 AA Bde. If the machines flew more hours, the cost would be less against the fixed overheads.

For those on the inside: http://defenceintranet.diiweb.r.mil.uk/NR/rdonlyres/E75F161F-1C48-47CD-98B5-DF58EE3C8590/0/AircraftCapitationRates0708.xls

For those on the outside, try:

http://www.defence.mod.uk/dgfm/fmgtdocs/caprates/AirCap.pdf

[Chaffers]

I'm not on the inside but the second link doesn't appear to work...

[foxtrot tango]

The 5K figure is fuel, oil, and spares and not the overhead. Obviously the greater the number of airframes the smaller the impact of overheads on the 'operating cost' of an Apache.

Missiles run from around 30K to 120K based on type.