Oh nuts... revalidation time

[Slopey]

Note to self - never confuse medical expiry date with licence revalidation date!
Anyways - here's the tale - advice required....
PPL(A) Licence issued 16/11/05, so revalidation due on 16/11/07.

Now, from 16/11/06, I've done 13.8 hours P1 with 18 landings - I did 1.9 hours with an instructor including a checkout on a C172, upper air work and circuits in Dec 06, all logged as P1, and he's signed my logbook.

Looking at LASORS, I should have had my revalidation page signed by a JAA examiner 3 months prior to the licence expiry.

Guess what I've not done! :ugh:

So I take it I now need to pass a skills test, and have the examiner sign the revalidation page? Yes?

[Slopey]

Oh, and for a further slump, the time with the instructor should also have been within 3 months of expiry. My bad. :ugh:

(As an aside - has anyone got a link to JAR-FCL 1.240 Appendix 3 - I can't find it anywhere.)

[S-Works]

No the time with an Instructor is any time in the last year. The signing of the licence is the last 3 months which is a UK specific thing.

It never fails to amuse me why pilots leave this to the last minute. I spend my entire life doing last minute flight with an instructor and revalidation examiner stuff for people when they could get a signature anytime in the last 3 months and it still runs from the existing date.

My JAA licence did not expire until January next year, I paid my dosh to the CAA last month and have the new pages sitting and sorted.

[IRRenewal]

Complete JAR-FCL 1 here (http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf). Warning. large file.

You're correct. Getting it signed is one of the revalidation requirements.

[homeguard]

You say 'so validation date is.....'
The date on which your class rating expires is stated on the validation slip incuded with your licence. Check that, don't summise.
If you have gone over the stated date then you have expired and must renew your class rating. The only way by which you can renew a class rating is by a test with an examiner.
To revalidate without a test, you must;
During the 12 months leading up to the SEPL expiry date have;
1) minimum total time of 12 hours as pilot
2)6 must be PIC.
3)1 hours dual flight training (logged P/ut) undertaken in one flight with a JAA Flight Instructor who must endorse your log book to say that the flight has satisfied the class rating revalidation requirement. (any test for any licence rating issue or renewal exempts you from this requirement)
a)You should note that the fact that you have flown with an instructor for whatever reason is not good enough without the instructor statement and signature - make sure that you get both next time you fly for one hour or more dual with an instructor. A simple signature is not enough
3)12 take-offs and 12 landings logged (in most cases this is obvious.)
4) Your class rating can only be re-signed based on experience prior to the expiry (up to 3 months early is allowed)
A club checkout does not count as the one hour dual training. However, more often as not the instructor will consider that the work done during the checkout satisfies the dual training requirement.

[Slopey]

Yep - skills test it is then. Hey ho - it'll doubtless improve my flying, so not all bad!
The thing that got me is that the licence was issued on 31/03/06 (I took a while to get round to getting the medical), but the SEP rating was back dated to the date I passed the skills test - 16/11/05.

I mistakenly thought I had until March and was getting ready to get all revalidated in Jan/Feb.

Whoops! Oh well - how much is a skills test running at these days?

[DFC]

Just to clear up a few slips in some of the above posts.

The 3 month window is not a UK only thing. JAR-FCL provides that for a rating revalidated within the last 3months of validity the next period starts from the expiry date of the rating and not from the date the revalidation was completed on........i.e. do the necessary a bit early and you don't loose out.

The requirements have to be met in the year prior to when the licence is presented for revalidation.

If you fly reguluarly and foresee a period coming when you will not fly ask yourself if it will be worthwhile revalidating now even if it is more than 3months early because you have all the requirements but may not when the 3 month window comes round. Similarly if you are not a regular flier, completing a test can be cheaper than chacing hours and flying with an instructor just to get the paper signed.

The 1 hour with an instructor flight can be for any purpose and the reason why the instructor signs the logbook is to certify that the flight did indeed take place. The CAA's advice is that instructors should not sign a logbook if the standard of flying is below par. Thus doing a clubcheckout where there is 1 hour or more flight time is perfectly acceptable provided that the instructor signed the logbook.

Don't forget that the CAA say the 1 hour with an instructor can be used to try something new eg night flying, IMC, aeros etc.

£75 for the test and you pay for the aircraft time.

Regards,

DFC

[Slopey]

Can the test be completed on a group share aircraft, or does it need to be one with the right type of cert (public transport?) to receive paid flight instruction?

[18greens]

'Can the test be completed on a group share aircraft, or does it need to be one with the right type of cert (public transport?) to receive paid flight instruction?'

I think it needs to be on a CofA aircraft. Hence why people who fly Hunters, JPs and Permit Pitts need to visit the cockpit of a C152 for an hour of punishment to revalidate/renew. I think the group ac works if it has a cofa, not sure about public transport- anyone know.

And why can you fulfill the flying requirement (12 hours flying inc 6 pic inc 1 with an instructor) 11 months 25 days before it runs out yet have to wait another 9 months to remember to have it signed in your licence.:ugh: Whats the reason behind that gem?

[englishal]

The 3 month window is not a UK only thing. JAR-FCL provides that for a rating revalidated within the last 3months of validity the next period starts from the expiry date of the rating and not from the date the revalidation was completed on........i.e. do the necessary a bit early and you don't loose out.

Never used to be like that though. In the past I have had mine revalidated from month 13 for a further 2 years from the original date of expiry. Then it all went to rat sh*t and we're stuck with a stupid system which only seems to be in place to complicate things.

It is ok Bose saying "do it early", well for my last reval although although I had plenty of time logged I wanted to do it in the last 3 months understandably. I had the time logged but not the 1 hr with instructor. And to kill two birds with one stone I did the reval with a FE acting as FI - he then signed my paperwork at the same time, saving me two 80 mile round trips.

For 2 of the last 3 months I was away, and for the remaining 1 the weather was attrocious. I made it with 2 days to spare, only because the PPL student cancelled as it was 30kt winds.

I can't see why if you have the experience, then you can't reval at a) any time in the last 12 months or b) any time AFTER the date of expiry, but from the date of expiry you are not allowed to fly, and if done AFTER expiry then it runs from the original expiry date.

Even better, lets just have a BFR and be done with all this nonsense of mixing FIs and examiners....

[homeguard]

englishal
No it dosn't gey backdated. If your validation expires and therefore you do a Renewal Test then the next validity period starts from the date of the successful Renewal Test.
Yes, you can be tested on a group share aeroplane that is on a private category. You can't train on it though. Whether you can do the dual training 'Revalidation Flight' on a group aeroplane is unclear and open to some interpretation it seems.

[Kengineer-130]

Dunx :( I too need to revalidate, I have done no fixed wing flying since passing my PPL 2 years ago :ugh::(.... Is it just a case of a 1hr flight with an examiner and off you go again for another 2 years? :ok:

[Whopity]

Is it just a case of a 1hr flight with an examiner and off you go again for another 2 years?

NO, the one hour relates to a Dual Flight with an instructor, a Skill Test is as long as it takes, that can be 50 minutes if you are up to speed!

[worldpilot]

DFC,
Just for your information, it is not a prerequisite in JAA-FCL that the instructor signs your logbook. It suffices when the rating validation page of the license is signed by the instructor. The endorsement in the logbook is a practice in the FAA environment. After conducting a BFR, the FAA instructor endorsed the logbook. I guess this is because the FAA license has a credit card format and hence provides no possibilities for extensions.

WP

[Slopey]

Sorry Keng - as Whopity says - you'll need to do the Skills Test again - same as the original one - upper air work, general handling, a few landings in various configs, W&B at the start, and a Nav with a diversion.

[S-Works]

worldpilot, I think you have a mixed understanding of the requirements. An Instructor cannot sign the ratings revalidation page only an examiner can.

It is perfectly acceptble to do the 1hr flight with an Instructor who is also an examiner and they can than sign the revalidation page which is what I do.

To be clear you can do the renewal by experience in 2 ways:

1hr flight with an Instructor, he signs the logbook to say verify the flight has taken place.

You take your licence and logbook to an examiner and he signs the revalidation page.

Or:

You come to someone like me who can conduct the 1hr flight and then sign your licence and logbook in one sitting.

It is accepted policy that an examiner signing a revalidation page will be looking for a signed PUT entry of 1 hour or greater as a single flight with an Instructor. The Instructor signing the logbook is just a way of the examiner seeing that the flight was real and not just an entry made up or entered incorrectly.

[homeguard]

To clear up a few things.
For a dual flight to be counted toward the JAA requirement for revalidation then the instructor must sign and also state that the flight satisfied the requirement for revalidation. A signature on its own is not sufficient. The signature otherwise could be for any purpose such as a routine club check etc. At a later date the examiner assesseing relevant experience will not know what the signature represents without the additional short statement.
Further the revalidation flight is for the purpose of ongoing training, it is not a test. The instructor only anotates the log book to confirm the purpose of the flight has been satisified. Only an authorised examiner may examine.
In a free world the instructor cannot be forced to sign if they do not wish. But it is their choice. However not to sign is rather pointless because the valid pilot remains valid just the same and may still have 11 months and 30 days of flying before his class rating need revalidateing by an examiner. If the pilot has refused to co-operate with the training then indeed do not sign but that would be right because the purpose had not been satisfied.
A further bit of detail correction to a DFC comment. The licence is not revalidated. The class rating held is revaildated/renewed. Licence renewal is a seperate issue.
There is no recommedation that the instructor should refuse to sign if they are unhappy. The instructor is not required to assess ability of the pilot for licencing puposes but only to carry out the training as required. However it is left for the Instructor and the qualified pilot to cover the hour as they best believe is most useful. The CAA at one point did devise a recommended content which has since been withdrawn.

[S-Works]

hoemguard you are wrong with respect to the flight entry.

Any flight of one hour or greater is acceptable for the revalidation of the rating. It does not have to be annotated as being the revalidation flight. A club checkout, tail wheel conversion, differences training etc all count towards the flight requirement.

The fact that the Instructor has signed the flight is sufficient to indicate the flight was OK.

[Slopey]

A point which has come out of the above, but is not made explicit in Lasors:

Does that 1 hour with an FI have to be logged as Pu/t rather than P1 (if the FI is happy with your flying as allows you to log it?)

(For next time I have to do this! In happier news - orf up to Inverness to use their 172 to get reval'd in a week or so :) )

[Brooklands]

Does that 1 hour with an FI have to be logged as Pu/t rather than P1

Slopey, I'd yes it does, because its supposed to be a 1 hour instructional flight. If you're being instructed, then you must be PU/T.

Brooklands

[worldpilot]

right. I actually meant examiner. In my case, the instructor was also the examiner. It was also a similar situation (Flight instructor examiner) when I did the BFR for my FAA license.

WP

[On the Spot]

I fell between several stools on this subject.
Having done my 12 hrs + 1hr instruction I took my certificate to my usual CFI get signed but was told it could not be because it was more than three months prior to expiry
My medical then expired and when I re-presented I was told it could not be signed because the medical was not current.
Then another CFI advised that it could be signed at any time duringthe second year after I had completed the requirements.

The last seems the most logical to me.
So on with the FAA licence in the meanwhile, no such hassles

[DFC]

On the Spot,

The rating can be revalidated at any time during it's validity provided you meet the requirements.

Your CFI was wrong!

If you decide to revalidate outside the last 3 month window the your rating will now run from 2 years from the date it was signed and you will loose the ramaider of your current validity period.

The validity of the medical is a totally separate issue to the rating and is outside the authority of the CFI to comment on unless they are an AME or you are trying to exercise your licence and rating without a valid medical.

Regards,

DFC

[homeguard]

Having a valid medical to revalidate is not stated in the requirements for revalidation nor renewal.
However, the Chief Examiner has said that we should check medical currency when revalidating. That guidance would be in accordance with common sense. What hasn't been stated is what we should do should we discover a medical is expired.
I do not know what authority that I have to refuse a revalidation request when the medical is invalid. Therefore I simply treat the occasion as an opportunity to make sure that the pilot knows that their medical has expired. It is now up to them. They would certainly not be able to hire a club aircraft until they can show a current medical.
The CAA do state that a licence will not be renewed without a current medical. Nothing is formally stated by the CAA that any revalidation or renewal of a rating should be declined.

[On the Spot]

Mmmmmm !
I wish I had had a recording of the conversations with my CFI at the time. We fell out anyway later over other shall we say "management" issues from his somewhat autocratic and also inconsistent style. It seems it extends to application of the rules too and perhaps he needs a "revlaidation exercise" in that area.

I have spoken to a number of other CFI's since and got varying requirements for signing, as well as scope for the revalidation test.

The FAA system really is simplest and generates a minimum of two hours for the instructor (and pilot) too.

[S-Works]

There are a lot of opinions out there usually from the crusty old souls who have not been near the CAA in years.

I had a local CFI of a school refuse to sign a licence revalidation for a student after a flight with me in the days before I could do both bits saying the flight had to be with one of their Instructors to be valid. I have seen other examples of schools insisting that a 'full revalidation' flight be carried out with all of the 'required' skills and the logbook marked as a pass or fail.

What I do have contained in my little examiner pack is guidance notes on what to sign and what is valid and advice that we check the medical so that if it is out of date we can make sure the pilot knows. I do know that any flight as PUT with an Instructor of greater than one hour or an LPC flight of any duration counts towards revalidation. I do know that if I sign the revalidation in the last three months that it runs concurrently. If I sign it before then it runs from the date of signing. I do know I have to complete an SRG1119.

I do know that for an NPPL to be valid they pilot must fly 6hrs a year in the class and have a rolling 24 month flight with an Instructor. I do not send in an SRG1119 or sign the licence.

I do know that as an Instructor I can carry out the review flight and that the content of the flight is up to the pilot. I do have a suggested format for the flight that can be offered to the pilot if they have nothing in particular that they want to do but it is not a requirement just a suggestion. Most people who come for the 2 year flight generally like a bit of guidance and so we cover the usual stuff EFATA, PFL etc. I do know the flight should be a minimum of 1hr. At the end of the flight I will sign the logbook to confirm that an entry with my name as PIC is correct and I will sign the revalidation page to indicate that the requirements for revalidation have been met.

I do know that I will revalidate by experience the licence of anyone who brings me a licence and logbook and has met the experience requirements as outlined by the CAA. I will also ask to look at the medical as requested by the Chief Examiner but I am not in a position to refuse to revalidate if the experience requirements have been met legally. I would recommend to the pilot they get a new medical and point out flight without one would be illegal.

Thats as far as it goes!!!

[worldpilot]

For goodness sake, what will make a pilot who claims to have appropriate "situational awareness":sad: to be PIC of an aircraft, let his/her medical expire and then go for a proficiency test for licence revalidation?

You know what, if I am a CFI or examiner that is confronted with this situation, I will never take that pilot serious.

What do you think will happen if an accident occur under this circumstances and it is determined that the pilot was in the left seat without appropriate medical requirements? :ugh: The result will be a lenghty discussion in this forum about medical requirement.

It is simple. Don't even dream of jumping into an aircraft without current mdecial.:D

[S-Works]

Er! yeah and your point is? I have not seen anywhere in this discussion anyone even suggesting that flight without a medical is OK. Everyone has said the same thing, the reason as examiners we ask to look at the medical is just as a sanity to check to make sure it has not been forgotten. Very easily done I am afraid. I have come close in the past and there is nothing wrong with my 'situational awareness'!!!

'taking the pilot seriously' does to give the examiner the right to refuse revalidation when then the requirements have been legally met. A diligent examiner will make it clear to the pilot their responsibilities for securing a new medical before flight.

It may just be as in a recent case where I had a guy who needed he revalidation signing, his medical expired at the same time as the rating so he was going through the hoops and next stop was a medical.

[Slopey]

and it is determined that the pilot was in the left seat without appropriate medical requirements? The result will be a lenghty discussion in this forum about medical requirement.

I doubt it - the pilot did not have the appropriate medical requirements - end of story. But that's not the examiner's who signed off the revalidation problem. It's the pilot's.

[DFC]

Bose,

While you are spot on about the examiner bits, I wonder about the flight with a PPL where the CFI refused to sign the licence because "the flight had to be with one of their Instructors to be valid"

If the flight was made in their school aircraft and you were not an instructor from that RTF / FTO then there may have been an insurance issue as most clubs prohibit training on their aircraft by instructors not authorosed by the CFI.

Regards,

DFC