Use Of AutoPilot in IMC

[LateFinals]

Interested in folk's thoughts :

I understand that the CAA allow single-crew revenue earning flights as long as there is a functional auto-pilot (ie smaller airlines like Aurigny flying Tri-landers in the Channel).

If the CAA feel that there is a higher margin of safety for a commercial pilot to have the option of using an autopilot when in IMC is is appropriate for PPL pilots with IMC or IR ratings to undertake lengthy flight in IMC in an airplane without a autopilot ?

When I did my IMC it was in a plane without an autopilot, and while handflying is a skill to be practiced and kept current in the event that the autopilot is U/S, I wonder, when thinking about reducing flying risks (apropros the current interesting thread) whether folks are happy to undertake prolonged single pilot IMC flying without an autopilot or would never consider it?

Having said that some people place too much reliance on their autopilot making up for poor decision making and instrument flying practice. We have a chap (with his own aircraft) at our airfield who flies with an apparent disregard for the weather (attempting instrument approaches with the cloudbase below minima when the heavies aren't flying for example) and has had enough close shaves that a number of people won't fly with him, and yes a number of pilots including instructors have repeatedly reminded of the risks he is taking.

LateFinals

[Contacttower]

I seem to remember Fuji posted a thread which essentially asked what equipment people would need to fly single engined in IMC. Some wanted IFR GPS, others wanted deice and all sorts of other things but almost everyone wanted autopilot.

[mm_flynn]

FWIW, my view is that extended single pilot IMC without a functioning autopilot is too much like hard work and reduces my perceived safety margin by enough to be a no go item. This is particularly true if on a route where I am likely to have a lot of re-planning or am going to be approaching at night or in low weather (just don't want to be tired in these situations).

[Contacttower]

I've never used an autopilot but I have flown in some pretty bumpy clouds before (just a little bit of tactical IMC here and there) and I was wondering, how much turbulence can a light aircraft's autopilot actually deal with?

[S-Works]

It's in the POH. Mine is 1.3g. Most modern AP deal pretty well with turbulence, anything that I sit and think oooh this is bumpy in I will disengage and hand fly.

The key thing here is that the AP is really good as an enroute tool and when in the airways mine is on all the time. But it has to be remembered that most of the time the reason I am in the airway is to get clear of cloud.

For the IMC pilot relying on an AP as crutch it opens a whole can of worms for discussion.

[IO540]

An AP is more or less essential for IFR.

One can fly by hand in IMC but the pilot workload is much higher, which reduces safety. In nearly all accidents involving loss of situational awareness, the pilot would not have made the mistake if he had more time to think. The airlines realised decades ago that reducing pilot workload is the key to safety but somehow GA likes to live on in its little rut, to prove it can grow hairs on its chest.

IR checkrides are done without the autopilot to push the pilot to the limit of his ability but one would never fly like that by choice.

Real flying from A to B is done on autopilot the whole time. There is ample opportunity to practice one's manual IMC skills by going up and drilling horizontal holes in some cloud in Class G - not in the airways when under radar control and ATC expect you to fly dead accurately.

Re turbulence, it depends on the AP. Some are good, some not so good. In very bad turbulence I prefer to hand fly because the objective is to keep wings level and maintain constant pitch, not maintain altitude. But very little IFR flight is in IMC.

[A and C]

IO-540 makes some good points, I would not like to do more than 2 hours of "hard" IMC flight without an autopilot, Paris -Madrid without an autopilot in an F-27 was an epic and there was two of us to do the flying!

But hand flying skills are something that are fast disappering in the airlines with young First Officers now unable or unwilling to fly visual approches or hand fly an ILS.

It is all a question of balance Autopilots have there place and they reduce the workload however hand flying is a perishable skill that is easily lost without practice, the bottom line is if you can't hand fly the aircraft in the airspace that you are in you should not be doing so however using the autopilot frees up so much brain capacity it is wise to use it when the workload is high.

I regularly hand fly the aircraft in IFR when the workload allows but five in afternoon at Paris GDG or Detroit Metro is not the place to do it!

[Contacttower]

But hand flying skills are something that are fast disappering in the airlines with young First Officers now unable or unwilling to fly visual approches or hand fly an ILS.



One reads that a lot on this site...but I've always wondered why exactly is that the case?

The IR test is done fully hand flown so everyone proves the skills originally and I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to loose hand flying skills.

[S-Works]

Because most wannabees do the IR as a required test on the road to the RHS, the next time they renew is because they have a job and a current Ir is required for them to do the type rating. After that they only renew a multicrew IR. Most of them struggle to work out which way is up in IMC without an AP.

The old hands who came through the ranks doing it the hard way have no fear of hand flying anything from a Cessna to a 747.

[IRRenewal]

I have seen plenty of crusty old captains who struggled with hand flying an ILS as well.

Lack of currency is not something only young first officers suffer from in an environment where the use of the A/P is actively promoted.

[Contacttower]

Does the multi crew IR allow the use of the autopilot then?

Most of them struggle to work out which way is up in IMC without an AP.

:hmm:...that fills me with so much confidence as a passenger.

[IO540]

I think there is little risk of GA IFR pilots losing their hand flying skills.

If every airfield had an ILS then it might be a problem ;)

The airliner world, from what I know of it, is different. I am sure the vast majority of flights within Europe (not Greece etc) can be flown fully automatic, down to ~ 100ft and actually most of the ones to major airports can be done with autoland.

GA is very different.

I strongly recommend using the AP for all real flight, and then practicing hand flying in IMC when nobody is watching you. A properly planned IFR GA flight will most likely spend so little time in IMC it won't be worth logging the instrument time.

[hobbit1983]

So since club aircraft (well at least my club anyway) don't have an autopilot (well, they do, but IIRC they ALL are marked u/s) what's your opinion on a young, approx 170hr PPL/IMC handflying a 3-hour flight with about 75% or so IMC? (hypothetical situation of course! :) )

I personally didn't see it as a problem, and thought the flight went well. Am I doing something stupid re. safety here?

[SNS3Guppy]

Single pilot IFR in instrument conditions is among the highest workload and most demanding flying you can do. I've flown formation beneath powerlines and run airplanes into burning canyons...and still maintain that single pilot IMC is about as a high a workload, and in my opinion about as hazardous a flying as you an do. Do it single pilot without autopilot, and your workload goes up even more.

Do it in a single engine piston airplane...you're an idiot.

That's my position as a GA pilot and instructor.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Flying under the instrument flight rules is like any other flying activity the more you do it the easier it gets.

What we need to do is look at it as two separate issues though.

Flying the airplane with reference to the flight instruments is easier than flying looking outside because there is less to have to look at and with only the flight instruments you fly far more accurately.

Personally I feel more comfortable flying the panel than flying by outside visual reference.

However flying on instruments and under the IFR rules in high density air space is another matter and the work load goes up, way up. that is why an auto pilot is a must have aid if you are flying single pilot under the instrument flight rules.

By the way I personally quit flying single pilot IFR many decades ago and am a firm believer in the two crew concept and at least two engines.

I do not fly single engine IFR period.

[Contacttower]

3-hour flight with about 75% or so IMC?


I haven't had my IMC rating for that long but 2.25hrs in cloud I think would be very tiring...my experience is that if you get into very bumpy IMC then almost all your concentration goes on controlling the plane with little extra metal capacity for anything else.

I have done more than that under the hood but that was with my instructor doing the nav and radio. In real life I'd say 2.25hrs is too much.

[Flying Farmer]

Bose I have to disagree with your generalisation ref airline flying and loss of skills by continual use of AP. I would love to put you through an Airline sim check or a 4 hour sim session and see how you cope!

Just for your information, we can and have on occasion departed with the auto pilot and the flight director inop and managed to keep the aircraft the right way up :D Our last sim recurrent was a dual generator failure, the flight continues to the nearest suitable on batterys, no autopilot no flight director, all our crews get this scenario and all cope without flying upside down, your comments are based on a lack of knowledge and I find them offensive.

Contacttower you have nothing to fear, all the guys and gals I fly with regularly practice their hand flying skills when conditions allow, even the lower hours FOs.

[Contacttower]

FF I'm curious about this...I read in Pilot a piece by Bob Grimstead, I think it was the 'Can a PPL land a jumbo' one in which he said that at 35,000ft the aircraft is so unstable because of the thin air that it is very difficult to keep straight and level...this may be an exaggeration but if left me with the impression that crews are slightly 'at the mercy of' the plane high up. Having said that though I believe the Quantas 707 was flown all the way from Southend to Australia without an autopilot.

[Flying Farmer]

Contacttower I can't answer that I'm afraid; I'm currently operating the Dash 8 so Bob would be the one to ask, or have a look through Handling the Big Jets, a very informative read.

In normal operations we fly at 20000 or less and have no problems with aircraft controllability, although I understand at high altitudes passenger jets suffer from a lack of damping due the thin air.

Our Minimum Equipment List allows us to depart no Autopilot and no Flight Director, the MEL is set by the manufacturer. I have no idea what the dispatch requirements would be for a Boeing or Airbus type, but bottom line the crew have to be able to cope with a failure of the Autopilot or/and the Flight Director.

[Contacttower]

or have a look through Handling the Big Jets, a very informative read.



I have in fact read a lot of it and I don't remember a mention of hand flying at high altitude being a problem.

[FlyingForFun]

There are a lot of posts on this thread where people are touting their own opinions as being "fact".

Just because a particular pilot does not feel it is safe to fly an IFR trip without an autopilot, that does not mean that it is not safe for another pilot.

It all depends on your experience level, your currency, your knowledge of the route, your knowledge of the aircraft, etc, etc, etc. If a pilot regularly flies IFR without an autopilot, and flies the same route (or small selection of routes) every week (and therefore knows all the reporting points, ATC gotchas, etc), and maybe has a moving map GPS, and the weather is fairly benign (solid IMC is fine, but not so bumpy you have to work hard to fly S+L), then I would guess that this particular pilot could fly those routes incredibly safely. Almost everyone who passes a UK IR is in current practice at doing this (but not quite everyone...), so if a pilot were to get an IR and then continue to hand-fly similar routes to his IR there is no reason he shouldn't be able to do so safely.

On the other hand, as a private pilot, it is up to you to assess your currency and ability, and if you don't feel you can undertake the flight safely, then don't do it.

For me, personally, I'd use the autopilot every time if it was there. But if it wasn't there, it wouldn't be a no-go item.

The original question asked about an IMC rating. I would say that, after a 15 hours course, you are not in a position to be able to carry out flights of this length in solid IMC safely. But if that is what you are planning on doing, then find yourself a good instructor, and do 30-40 hours on the IMC course instead of the 15 hour minimum, then go for it. There's nothing that says that a course can't be extended to cover what the student actually needs to get out of it!

A couple of other misconceptions on this thread. Autopilot has been allowed on single-pilot IR renewal flights for quite some time, and in fact was actively encouraged by the examiner the one time I was lucky enough to renew my IR on an aircraft with a funcational autopilot! But it must be switched off for the approaches.

And, as of recently, it is also allowed on initial IR flights too. Although most schools' aircraft don't have autopilots, those schools with shiny new DA42s teach their students to use the autopilot on their IR. I believe that the requirement is for the student to hand-fly to top of climb, and to hand fly the approaches. For the rest of the flight the autopilot can be used, but the pilot is expected to keep a Plog to commercial airline standards.

FFF
---------------

[mm_flynn]

So since club aircraft (well at least my club anyway) don't have an autopilot (well, they do, but IIRC they ALL are marked u/s) what's your opinion on a young, approx 170hr PPL/IMC handflying a 3-hour flight with about 75% or so IMC? (hypothetical situation of course! :) )

I personally didn't see it as a problem, and thought the flight went well. Am I doing something stupid re. safety here?

For me there are two things to think about. 1 how comfortable are you on the gauges. On a 'nice' IMC day where all I need to do is fly, I am happy to do it without an autopilot. The problem is when ATC have a different plan than you do and all of a sudden your in the 'now where the h*!! is that waypoint? why are they sending me here? Does this still make sense?' situation and you are suddenly wishing for George to just hold it straight and level while you reprogramme the GPS and get a grip on the overall plan.

[Contacttower]

I personally didn't see it as a problem, and thought the flight went well. Am I doing something stupid re. safety here?


hobbit did you say you'd actually flown the 3 hour flight?

I don't think you're doing anything stupid, but it's interesting that our very experienced posters from across the pond are very reluctant to fly single engined IMC:


I do not fly single engine IFR period.


Do it in a single engine piston airplane...you're an idiot.


A lot of people do fly single engined IFR and in fact as someone said on the 'risk assessment' thread there is no statistical basis for thinking it is more dangerous than flying VFR.

[hobbit1983]

Within the last month I've flown 3 flights I would class as IMC flights. Bit of background first-

Got my IMCR in June of this year. Since then have managed to get in some practice approaches/holds etc about once a month, often with another IMCR/IR holder as safety pilot, with screens etc. These went well, so much so that I'd feel confident flying them in real-life (i.e. with a proper cloudbase) but NOT down to bare minimums - my personal minima at the moment would be 1000ft.

However I've not yet flown one "in anger" and I don't intend to just yet, unless I had to. On the flights I'm talking about I carried plates for the relevant approaches, but planned to fly a visual approach as permitted by conditions - the plates were in case I got caught out.

Since I got the rating, I've been trying to 'build up' the level of my IMC flights - first just doing 'on-top' stuff, with good conditions above and below the layer, then moving onto 'in the clag most of the time', and finally (not there yet) doing 'in the clag' & 'real-life approaches'.

The flights I were talking about within the last month have been the second type - good visual conditions at destination & departure, but in between there's enough cloud at height for me to fly in between layers or in cloud the entire way. As I said, I do carry plates & have practiced approaches with a safety pilot & screens just in case it does go tits-up.

On those flights, especially on the most recent, I would estimate I was in cloud about 75-60% of the time. I was handflying it, using DR, with VOR/DME position fixing as a backup (no GPS). This seems to work well - on the earlier flights this month, I was 'unsure' twice in total, but on the most recent, I was never unsure, and overall confident in my nav. It could be improved, but then I guess that's always true.

I always obtained a RIS where possible, and talked to the relevant authorites as much as practible. (This paid off; I got a transit straight through Luton's zone without asking for it!). I don't have a GPS in the club aircraft (none installed) - or an autopilot. The aircraft does have an autopilot, but it's labelled U/S, as is the case with all the club a/c as far as I know.

There seems to be two schools of thought responding to what I posted yesterday; but now there's a (lot) more detail, I would appreciate further comment.

[S-Works]

There is nothing wrong with single engine IFR, just the same as there is nothing wrong with single engine over water or at night. It is a personal risk assessment choice. Some are prepared to do it others are not, the aircraft does not know it is in cloud or night etc.

There is nothing big and clever about flying along in cloud when the conditions do not require it. You will that us IR pilots try to avoid cloud whenever possible, we plan to get on top and back under in the quickest manner possible. There is way to much macho thinking about flying in cloud. The reason I fly airways everywhere is that with the amount of flying I do the big sky shrinks and in the airways I have a RCS from start to finish.

I fly single pilot single engine IFR all over Europe and have my risk assessment criteria which I am happy with.

I have flown very long legs hand flying in IMC 3 or more hours on occasion and it is very very tiring. I would suggest that it is beyond the experience level of the average IMC pilot to fly by hand for this length of time.
I would also question exactly where the average IMC pilot would actually be flying to be able to stay in solid IMC for this length of time as the rating is illegal to use outside of the UK and the there are few places that you can fly between in the UK to be in IMC for three hours. Doing so would indicate a very poor example of pre-fight planning.

An autopilot in busy airspace is a must to have for a serious IFR pilot. Flying around the LTMA under London Control, getting ATIS, preparing plates and approach briefs is not the place to be wandering off heading/height while you are distracted even for a few seconds. You want to play with the big boys you play by there rules and they do not hand fly.

[S-Works]

I don't have a GPS in the club aircraft (none installed) - or an autopilot. The aircraft does have an autopilot, but it's labelled U/S, as is the case with all the club a/c as far as I know.

And you think it perfectly acceptable to go bowling through some of the busiest airspace in the country with the minimal of equipment and experience?

Is the kit you actually have FM immune? How exactly are you navigating?

[hobbit1983]

Quote:
I don't have a GPS in the club aircraft (none installed) - or an autopilot. The aircraft does have an autopilot, but it's labelled U/S, as is the case with all the club a/c as far as I know.

And you think it perfectly acceptable to go bowling through some of the busiest airspace in the country with the minimal of equipment and experience?

Is the kit you actually have FM immune? How exactly are you navigating?

DR, with VOR/DME position fixing & tracking. In my defence, yes I do - on the basis that one of the club instructors checked my routeplan etc before I went & quizzed me. He seemed okay with it - in fact it was a certain renowed OSFC instructor who suggested I take more challenging routes (rather than go round airspace altogether).

Thanks for your response bose-x - forgive me if the above sounds flippant. I was happy to proceed on the basis of the advice of the club instructors (after all, it's their a/c & their signature on the sign-out sheet). As you say, it's a personal risk assesment - I was aiming to expand my comfort zone by just the right amount, enough to challenge me, but not to put myself into danger.

[Contacttower]

And you think it perfectly acceptable to go bowling through some of the busiest airspace in the country with the minimal of equipment and experience?

Is the kit you actually have FM immune? How exactly are you navigating?

Bose are you saying what hobbit is doing is dangerous? Reading his post I think he has a very sensible attitude to building his experience...although personally I wouldn't use DR in IMC I'd just fly beacon to beacon but maybe I'm just lazy.

[hobbit1983]

CT - when navigating around Heathrow/Luton/Stanstead I did beacon track to an extent, but only to assess my DR & to make sure I didn't infringe :ok:

[Contacttower]

An autopilot in busy airspace is a must to have for a serious IFR pilot. Flying around the LTMA under London Control, getting ATIS, preparing plates and approach briefs is not the place to be wandering off heading/height while you are distracted even for a few seconds. You want to play with the big boys you play by there rules and they do not hand fly.

I flew into Gatwick without an autopilot...although the approach and nav was very straightforward.

[S-Works]

I flew into Gatwick without an autopilot...although the approach and nav was very straightforward.

You flew in VFR. Try going in from the airways, getting ATIS, preparing plates etc.

I am saying that learning the IFR 'trade' in a badly equipped aircraft in busy airspace is not the brightest of moves. Dead reckoning or using unapproved equipment is not very sensible.

IFR is a highly skilled game requiring proper planning and use of all of the tools possible to ensure it is carried out safely.

The average club hack with a single VOR that is not FM immune etc is not an appropriate platform. Not to mention the fact that VOR reliability low down patchy at best. So relying on it in IMC is daft, just imagine bowling along through Luton or Stanstead and the VOR loses lock. What happens? You have to declare an emergency, get a controller to divert resources to sort you out.

[Contacttower]

You flew in VFR. Try going in from the airways, getting ATIS, preparing plates etc.



True...but once inside the zone I was climbed above cloud and put on the ILS.

Certainly G-DOME that resides at Old Sarum has quite a good nav/com fit. OK it doesn't have autopilot or IFR GPS but with dual radios, dual VOR, Loc/Glide, ADF, DME all nicely laid out it's fine for flying 'beginner to intermediate' IMC.

I'm hoping to do the IR next year...perhaps when that's finished I'll come back and think about this again.

[hobbit1983]

I am saying that learning the IFR 'trade' in a badly equipped aircraft in busy airspace is not the brightest of moves. Dead reckoning or using unapproved equipment is not very sensible.
IFR is a highly skilled game requiring proper planning and use of all of the tools possible to ensure it is carried out safely.

Bose; I hear what you're saying, but the instructors at my club were quite happy for me to fly the flight given the equipment I had. Are you saying they were not sensible too?

The average club hack with a single VOR that is not FM immune etc is not an appropriate platform. Not to mention the fact that VOR reliability low down patchy at best. So relying on it in IMC is daft, just imagine bowling along through Luton or Stanstead and the VOR loses lock. What happens? You have to declare an emergency, get a controller to divert resources to sort you out.

If that had happened to me, during the 'busy airspace' phase, I could have descended to safely below cloud & continued visually. I checked the forecast cloudbase before I left; If I really cocked up my IFR nav I wanted to make sure I didn't blunder into somewhere I shouldn't. Having said that, I experienced no problems with it the VORS (both of them) & I wasn't relying on them soley.

Are you saying that if two different VORs or recievers packed up in flight I should declare a pan call?

[IO540]

So since club aircraft (well at least my club anyway) don't have an autopilot (well, they do, but IIRC they ALL are marked u/s) what's your opinion on a young, approx 170hr PPL/IMC handflying a 3-hour flight with about 75% or so IMC? (hypothetical situation of course! :) )

It's OK but if you really did spend 3hrs in IMC you will end up really knackered for the time you don't want to be - the landing. This would be true for the most seasoned professional pilot, too. Personally I wouldn't do it.

Mind you, not many spamcans can stay up for 3hrs with a meaningful reserve...

On a more general note, there is obvious confusion here (from comments about FM Immunity etc) between "UK style IFR" (which is basically flying around in Class G, often without any meaningful ATC service, popping in and out of cloud as necessary, and without any enroute clearance) and IFR/airways flight (which is cleared enroute, under ATC direction i.e. Radar Control Service the whole way, on Eurocontrol routings whose MEAs would usually place you into freezing levels so the strategy is to head for VMC on top ASAP).

I don't think this "3hrs IMC" poster is doing the latter! In Europe, if you spend 3hrs in the airways in IMC (say FL120) you will likely end up carrying more ice than the father xmas sleigh in Spitzbergen.

He's clearly talking about doing this in UK Class G, and as I said it's OK but it's going to be helluva hard work. Also, in the winter, the flight is likely to be below 0C temperature so if really in IMC icing will be an issue, and flying at the low levels which one tends to in the UK (say 2000-3000ft, remaining below CAS) one has limited options for a descent into warmer air.

For me, a duff autopilot is a no-go item for IFR/airways. The workload is normally low, and I have had AP failures where I had to fly manually, but on occassions the workload can shoot up and then you need all the help you can get. I once had an AP failure on the way to Greece and had to fly by hand there and all the way back, but that was at high level (FL100+) and mostly VMC. But then I have a well equipped very stable plane.

Re nav, a decent GPS is a must, backed up by VOR/DME. But I wouldn't want to trust the crap avionics in the average crap rental spamcan which is what I used to fly in. I've had VORs which idented and indicated OK but were way off, and DMEs which idented, showed a reasonable figure but it was miles off. IMC training is done mostly in VMC (under the hood) so the stuff doesn't have to actually work. This is a generalisation but is something to watch.

[S-Works]

True...but once inside the zone I was climbed above cloud and put on the ILS.

illegally as I recall...... :p

But still my point, the controllers were doing the work for you quite probably because you were a novelty and they were paying extra attention to making sure you did not knock an airbus out of the sky.

When I fly into Gatwick I come off the airways with a STAR and then vectors, I have to find the plates for the arrival which is usually given to me by London control, I have to set up the Garmin for the arrival and the approach, write down the ATIS. Read the plates to make sure I know my platform heights and Missed Approach procedure, ensure I have the multitude of frequencies tuned in for approach tower ground etc.

That is not workload you want to be doing while hand flying trust me. I can do it, I have demonstrated to the CAA to a standard to pass and IR and to an examiner each year onwards but not something I want to do on regular trips.

[S-Works]

If that had happened to me, during the 'busy airspace' phase, I could have descended to safely below cloud & continued visually. I checked the forecast cloudbase before I left; If I really cocked up my IFR nav I wanted to make sure I didn't blunder into somewhere I shouldn't. Having said that, I experienced no problems with it the VORS (both of them) & I wasn't relying on them soley.

Then why do the flight in the first place if you could do it visually?

VORS can and will pack up at a moments notice. And let me make this perfectly clear there is NO PLACE in IFR navigation for dead reckoning. That is just a disaster waiting to happen.

[hobbit1983]

He's clearly talking about doing this in UK Class G, and as I said it's OK but it's going to be helluva hard work.

Most certainly yes - nowhere near the airways phase (yet)!

But still my point, the controllers were doing the work for you quite probably because you were a novelty and they were paying extra attention to making sure you did not knock an airbus out of the sky.

How so? I was in Class G, with a RIS, doing my own thing. I didn't even ask for a Luton Zone transit; they offered me a quick shortcut through, which I accepted.

When I fly into Gatwick I come off the airways with a STAR and then vectors, I have to find the plates for the arrival which is usually given to me by London control, I have to set up the Garmin for the arrival and the approach, write down the ATIS. Read the plates to make sure I know my platform heights and Missed Approach procedure, ensure I have the multitude of frequencies tuned in for approach tower ground etc.

If I was doing that kind of IFR flying I certainly accept that I'd probably not cope. Hence not doing it yet & building my experience! :E

That is not workload you want to be doing while hand flying trust me. I wholeheartedly agree; presumably that will come later during my IR - but for now, given what I'm doing - "UK style IFR" in class G, it sounds as though an autopilot is not a necessity.

[hobbit1983]

Then why do the flight in the first place if you could do it visually?

Because, in the words of an instructor, I need to stretch myself & get useful hourbuilding in. I could have done the visual flight, but I don't feel I would have gotten as much out of it compared to the way I did it.

VORS can and will pack up at a moments notice. And let me make this perfectly clear there is NO PLACE in IFR navigation for dead reckoning. That is just a disaster waiting to happen.

I accept that you're far better placed/qualified/experienced to judge that than me - but if that's the case, if you're relying on VORs over DR, how come a GPS backup isn't mandatory for IFR flight? (If it actually is, I apologise!)

[Contacttower]

illegally as I recall...... :p

To quote Chili Monster from the PM he sent me afterwards:


760 channel radios are a legal requirement for IFR inside CAS (Schedule 5, ANO).


Yes the radio issue was a slight oversight on my part, and yes I know...you can't really be SVFR in the LTMA. :=

[IO540]

for now, given what I'm doing - "UK style IFR" in class G, it sounds as though an autopilot is not a necessity

If you considerably modify the "3hrs" bit then I agree :)

You still want a really good GPS, moving map obviously, to keep the workload down.

The way to fly around the UK is to plan every flight as IFR, fly it as IFR navigationally, and if you end up in VMC then that's a bonus. This is routinely done on the IMC Rating, and this is what I was doing when I got the IMCR, and what I still do with the IR - I don't bother to fly airways for short (say 150nm) hops around the UK. A lot of the time one ends up in VMC but if the flight was planned as IFR from the start, one avoids the "I must remain below the cloud" scud running mentality which really is dangerous.

BTW flying into some place like Gatwick is nothing special. Well, the landing fee is very special, so special you want to make a copy of the logbook entry and frame it. At some airports (not Gatwick) the place is so big you need to do fuel planning for the taxi to the GA apron :)

[Contacttower]

But of course Bose, I wasn't trying to say that landing at Gatwick from the airways was easy...you're completely right...the controllers did make it easy for me; I just turned up at the Midhurst VOR, was told to route to MAY and it was vectors from there.

It wasn't something I did lightly...I'd done ILS approaches (under the hood) into big airports in the US and was aware that the most important thing was to do as I was told and be professional on the radio. Which is more than can be said for some dodgy Russian sounding crew who were in front of me in the sequence :E.

[hobbit1983]

If you considerably modify the "3hrs" bit then I agree

Point taken :ok:

[Contacttower]

But still my point, the controllers were doing the work for you quite probably because you were a novelty and they were paying extra attention to making sure you did not knock an airbus out of the sky.


How so? I was in Class G, with a RIS, doing my own thing. I didn't even ask for a Luton Zone transit; they offered me a quick shortcut through, which I accepted.


I think Bose was refering to my Gatwick trip....

[hobbit1983]

Gotcha - sorry bose! :O

[scooter boy]

"whether folks are happy to undertake prolonged single pilot IMC flying without an autopilot or would never consider it?"

Never. That would just be soooooo unpleasant!
I wouldn't even consider it.
What's more I might spill the G+T!
Non-functional A/P means I do not go IMC.

For me in the rough stuff the A/P does a far better job than I.
IFR - I hand fly 5 mins on departure and 5 mins on approach/landing.
Safer for me to monitor what is happening.

If I want to hand fly I take my R44 instead - and I never take that into IMC.

SB

[SNS3Guppy]

There is nothing wrong with single engine IFR, just the same as there is nothing wrong with single engine over water or at night. It is a personal risk assessment choice. Some are prepared to do it others are not, the aircraft does not know it is in cloud or night etc.


Saying quietly to yourself "That's a risk I'm willing to take" is all wrong. Aviation is not about taking risks; it's about identifying them and eliminating them by leaving yourself an out, changing your course, delaying your flight, taking extra fuel, preflighting better, exercising conservative judgement, etc.

Single engine night work and over water is equally foolish. However, single engine IMC is another matter entirely. Particularly in light piston engine airplanes. Setting aside the obvious issues of engine failure, most light singles have one electrical source, limited instrumentation, a single vacum source, no backup instruments, etc. Many of the vacum powered instruments in use tend to precess, some badly, and are often cheap in nature. Fine for training basic procedures on a good day with a hood; poor choices in the weather. Add to that a lack of radar and weather capability, lack of deice, and yes, one single engine. An exposed alternator or generator, exposed to the elements. Unprotected flying surfaces. Very limited performance.

If you've never hit embedded convective weather, you may be in for a surprise. If you've never suddenly encountered a rapid, severe ice buildup, you may be in for a suprise. If you've never suddenly found yourself on a partial panel, experienced an electrical failure on instruments, had a gyro slowly die on you (insidious, and can lead you into the ground because it looks quite normal), fixated, been distracted, been rolled in wake, or any of the other things that can happen, especially more so in a light single airplane...then you may certainly be in for a surprise. In fact, as a willing self-proclaimed risk-taker, you may be found with that surprised look still on your face.

Don't be that guy.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Some are prepared to do it others are not, the aircraft does not know it is in cloud or night etc.

I agree completely, the airplane does not know but having an IQ above an inanimate machine I know where I am and not wanting to play Russian Roulette with an airplane I don't fly single engine at night, in IMC or over water.

Met another ferry pilot a few years ago in the parking area of the airport in Luxor who was delivering a Cessna 172 from the USA to somewhere in the sand box. We got talking and I asked him how he felt in that thing during the North Atlantic crossing and he said the same thing, he felt no fear because the airplane did not know it was over water.

That mindset is something I can't understand.

[Fuji Abound]

Why are you in IMC?

There might be a good 2,000 feet between the base and the ground. You might be a few hundred feet above the base. You might be there because you want some experience of flying in IMC in relatively carefully chosen conditions - no convective activity what so ever and no risk of icing. If things go wrong there is a readily available out. For a pilot qualified to do so I don’t see that as unreasonable. Moreover I don’t see it matters whether or not there is water below - if the same pilot was also happy to fly over water in VMC.

A wholly different scenario is flying IMC with low bases, embedded activity or icing. I think these are a no go events in the average SEP which is not equipped to deal with these conditions. The minimum equipment in those circumstances is a decent nav fit, storm scope, de-icing and, for low bases, an extra engine.

With any system surely a reasonable starting point is redundancy. We have two VORs so that when the first fails there is a second. We have two fuel pumps or a vac and an electrically driven AI for the same reason.

Having one engine does not seem to fulfill this criteria. However, in fact it does. If it fails we have our eyes and an aircraft that performance in a way that the chances of a successful FL are pretty good. If the engine fails in IMC, with a low base, you are down to one system. Your eyes are useless when you break out at 500 feet - all that remains is luck. With a base of 2,000 feet the second system with a lot less luck has got a reasonable chance of doing a good job.

[S-Works]

Chuck, SN3 - Guys you are entitled to your own opinion about flying night, IMC etc in single engine aircraft, that is your call. But we don't need the judgmental postings to go with it.

All flying is about personal risk assessment and risk mitigation. Every flight has an amount of risk and we do our best to offset those risks through training and preparation.

I am perfectly happy to fly SEP as described, but I am careful to apply my own mitigating factors before I conduct the flight just as many others are.

[drauk]

hobbit1983,

Your posts would suggest that you are trying to take a considered and diligent approach to flying in IMC. On that basis, why not buy yourself a handheld GPS? It's nothing to do with rules, just common sense. Even a crappy old Garmin Pilot III would make a HUGE difference to that kind of flying and is cheap as chips. If you can afford a colour moving map so much the better.

[hobbit1983]

I've on occasion borrowed/used a handheld GPS from friends at the flying club, for backup use, and it's certainly very useful - I have therefore added a small handheld GPS to my Xmas list :ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Chuck, SN3 - Guys you are entitled to your own opinion about flying night, IMC etc in single engine aircraft, that is your call. But we don't need the judgmental postings to go with it.

And I don't need your snotty judgmental opinion about how I make decisions.


All flying is about personal risk assessment and risk mitigation. Every flight has an amount of risk and we do our best to offset those risks through training and preparation.

Exactly, and all the training in the world won't help you if you have an engine failure over very cold water beyond gliding distance from land, or in IMC with a low ceiling.....or at night with no ground reference therefore not exposing ones self to these conditions is in my opinion good airmanship.


I am perfectly happy to fly SEP as described, but I am careful to apply my own mitigating factors before I conduct the flight just as many others are.

Think about this for a while::
I was talking to another ferry pilot in Wick while holding for weather on my last Atlantic ferry flight he was delivering a single engine airplane to North America.

I asked him if he was concerned about only having one engine and he said not at all.

I received an e-mail a few months later telling me that he had just disappeared on his last ferry flight over the North Atlantic' I often think about how indifferent he was to the risk factor when we were talking.

[IO540]

The thing is Chuck you are talking of a whole different kind of risk.

One may as well be flying an SEP over the N. Pole wearing just one's underpants. Perfectly OK if you have a good heater.

Flying over land, even if it is OVC005 down below, is nothing like as bad. Probably about 99% of Europe, especially the UK, has nothing down there at any given moment. Towns can be avoided with a GPS. Etc.

Ferrying is a dangerous game, especially if ferrying some of the old junk which people buy and want to ship over.

I am sorry to hear of your friend. What was he flying?

Pilots tend to regard what they currently fly as the baseline. I know twin TP pilots who think the minimum for IFR is a twin TP with full KI de-ice.

[S-Works]

I am sorry chuck but I don't see your point. If I applied your risk assessment to every flight then I would not leave the ground without at least four of everything including engines.

There was nothing snotty about my post to you, it was in fact one of my more polite responses.

Like I said you have your own limits that you are prepared to operate to and I realise in your eyes my mere few thousand hours count for nothing buy I don't need you to be so judgmental.

I make my choices and mitigate accordingly. I am not sure I would cross the atlantic in a single either, but I am quite happy to cross the English Channel and the Med with appropriate safety precautions in place. The same as I am not prepared to fly in IMC that does not give me a suitable margin of ground vision in the even of an engine failure in a single or a twin for that matter.

I have always valued the experience you offer these forums, but I am not prepared to be bludgeoned or insulted into agreeing with you regardless of the horror stories you want to try and frighten me with. I can add my own equally impressive stories of death and disaster to the mix thanks!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am sorry chuck but I don't see your point. If I applied your risk assessment to every flight then I would not leave the ground without at least four of everything including engines.


There you go again....making off the wall statements, no where have I indicated you need four of everything to fly safely what I am saying is single engine in the wrong place is a risk factor I won't accept.


Like I said you have your own limits that you are prepared to operate to and I realise in your eyes my mere few thousand hours count for nothing

Are you saying that I look down on low time pilots???

As to my attitude....suck it up Princess you will get over the hurt.

[S-Works]

Well I have tried to be polite and reasonable to you Chuck. I have tried to debate.

It obviously does not work with you so as you north americans say, you can kiss my ass.
:p

Or if I am to be your princess, you can be my bitch.......;)

[SNS3Guppy]

I am quite happy to cross the English Channel and the Med with appropriate safety precautions in place.


Which would be what, precisely?

[S-Works]

During the summer life jackets, life raft and PLB. During the winter exposure suits as well. I generally always cross in the airways and for the UK to Europe crossing this actually always leaves me in glide distance. For the UK to the CI which I do weekly my out of glide distance is around 10 mins. Regardless I take appropriate equipment for sea survival. As an offshore boat skipper I attend a sea survival course every year which includes deployment and getting into a life raft.

Crossing the Channel in the UK with an EPIRB leaves me no more than 30 minutes according to the coast guard from a helicopter.

I also carry flares and water dye marker. In addition to my McMurdo Fast find GPS PLB my aircrew life jacket also has a 121.5 locator built into it. The ditch bag carries a mobile phone in an aqua-pac, an aviation Icom in an aqua-pac and an Icom marine radio in an aqua-pac.

I won't fly over 'hostile' territory single engine. By hostile I mean something like the Canadian 'outback' where it is difficult to locate a downed aircraft and the emergency response is minimal.

I will fly over European mountains at airways heights as the exposure time again is limited and surprisingly there are a very healthy number of glide clear options. I would not want to cross some of the big US ranges single engine.

The problem with you North Americans is you apply North American geography to our terrain which is pussy cat stuff to what you have. We have little in the way of things that stick up to run into. Our ground is generally flat and open and we are minutes away from rescue over 98% of our terrain.

Even crossing the med which is warm water the longest crossings to anywhere are the Islands and they are around 120nm around 50mins in my aircraft and at airways heights around half that time is away from glide clear.

I am happy with the risk mitigation that I take . It is not perfect but then nothing in aviation is. Of course I would prefer taking a twin but at our operating costs a 2 week holiday touring around Europe would settle the 3rd world debt, reduce the places that I can visit etc.

[LateFinals]

As usual Bose X makes excellent comments.

The general conclusion of this thread is that most pilots feel that flying extensieve IMC without an autopilot is a risk too far in their personal flying assessments.

Can anyone reccomend a centre to practice ditching and liferaft recovery, I seem to recall that there are some centres on the South Coast. (PM if necessary)

I'd be interested in some feedback about immersion suits. I always have a life raft when going to the CI but I've seen pilots struggling to get into these suits on the apron. Are they very bulky in the cabin, do you sweat like dogs ?

Finally I'm off to the boat show on Saturday and want to buy an EPIRB. For those people in the know are any types better than others, and can marine EPIRB's be used for aviation ?

Best Wishes,

LateFinals

[IO540]

I can't help thinking that people who wear immersion suits are either hardened anoraks who fly alone (or in the company of other hardened anoraks), or they will very soon chuck the whole thing in.

It can't be much fun getting in and out of those things.

Flying should be enjoyable.

I am as flexible as any 50 year old can be but getting in and out of say a PA28 or any other single-door spamcan is a right b*astard of a job, that is if you are trying to do it without wrecking the seats you have to climb over. Doing it with a drysuit is going to be a lot of fun, especially if you have to get out in a hurry. I've got ~ 70hrs in PA28s so I know them well; they were designed for starved ex-WW2 pilots.

Much better to get a decent life raft, carefully brief passengers on what to do in the event of a ditching, and get it serviced regularly.

Plus carry a 406Mhz EPRIB of course, with a built-in GPS. They are quite cheap now.

BTW, in much of the Med there is very little S&R. Sure enough you will get picked up eventually (through the 406MHz-satellite activated commercial shipping network) but it could be days.

Whereas near the UK there is a chance of the S&R heli getting to you even before you hit the water; this actually happened to a Mooney (?) recently.

[SNS3Guppy]

Bose-X,
Your preparations are certainly sensible.

I suspect that most private flyers do not make such investments or take such precautions, and therefore my original observations still stand. Your operation is quite the exception over most.

Your actions are that of risk elimination. While the possibility of a forced landing is very real, you've opened the back door, which is what risk elimination is about. I would guess you've invested in the training to use that equipment, including live water training. If so, good for you, and hopefully your example inspires others. For those who don't prepare so thoroughly, avoiding single engine flight at night, in the clouds and over water is still the sensible thing to do.