Airline Pilots who are Flying Instructors

[Gazeem]

Hi,

just like to conduct a quick straw poll of airlines attitude to FI'ing in your spare time.

My company are requiring a monthly hours return to be completed and I was just wondering what is the attitude of other employers.

Do they care if <1500kgs or do they require Days off to be observed and no flying to take place.

Does anyone have the legal chapter and verse on this or is it just down to interpretation?

Interested to know,

Gaz

[BelArgUSA]

My airline has flight time limits only applicable to commercial flying.
xxx
If you fly privately (as airplane owner) or give free flight instruction (I occasionally donate my time for an aeroclub) there are no limits. A couple of years ago, my dentist wanted to have an instrument rating, so I instructed him in his own airplane, in trade for some dental work. That is not flying for hire...
xxx
But flying for hire is "commercial flying", regardless of aircraft weight, whether it is banner towing, flight instruction or... crop dusting...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Mine takes FI as aerial work - even if unpaid, so is accountable for duty and flight time.

However, it also says that RAF/RN reserve flying doesn't count. So a pilot can do an easy trial lesson in a 152, and have that counted, but also do some reasonably technical and hairy stuff in a Sea King or Hercules and not be required to inform the company!

It has to be said that my company hasn't really acknowledged the 21st century yet!

[DFC]

My Company requires everyone to apply for permission to conduct all such flying.

Counts as Hours towards the annual limits.

Applications are treated on a "case by case basis".

The company does acknowledge that it can be useful to the company for crew members to hold valid instructor qualifications.

Company does not roster us to the absolute limits over the year and thus there is no realproblem with a bit of instruction. Still required to report for duty fit and rested though.

Regards,

DFC

[A Very Civil Pilot]

1. Airlines don't, generally, approve of flying instructing outside the airline environment;
2. Don't ever ask airline management as they will almost invariably say 'NO', then you're stuffed;
3. If you want to instruct do it 'on the quiet' and plead innocence if you are discovered!;
4. Be sensible and don't over do it - make sure by your own sensible standards that you're adequately rested before your next duty period.

1. All the airlines I have worked for have not had a problem with instructing.

2. Get permission, as you are then covered if there is a cock-up. Both you and the airline are responsible for staying in hours.

3. Keep it above board, keep it legal. If there is an incident it will all come out in the AAIB investigation, and the lawyers will look at any loophole to blame you (and the insurers to not pay out).

4 OK

[2close]

The chapter and verse legal answer to this is very straightforward.

Flight Time Limitation Schemes under the ANO aside, duty flight hours are now legislated under social legislation, introduced to specifically regulate working hours:

(a) Commercial Air Transport, i.e. Airline flying (Pax or Freight)

Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004

Limits all aircrew (pilots AND cabin crew) to a maximum of 900 hours block time, and a maximum of 2,000 hours duty time, during any rolling twelve month period.

(b) Aerial Work, i.e. Instructing

Working Time Regulations 1998 as amended by Working Time (Amendment) Regulations 2003

Limits aerial workers to a maximum working week of 48 hours, with, believe it or not, an opt out clause, so you could theoretically work as many hours per week as you like as an instructor.


The question arises over which legislation applies to any individual undertaking both roles and it was concluded that a person's primary job would be the deciding factor and that those hours would apply. Therefore, if a person is a full-time airline pilot (or cabin crew!) and a part-time instructor, they are limited to 900 hours block time under the CA(WT)R 2004 and any instructional hours undertaken would count within that 900 hours.

However, the duty to control the hours lies with the employer not the employee. An issue may arise with the wording of the contract between the pilot and the employer in what s/he needs to tell them about his extra-employment activities and his total flight hours.

A further way out could arise if the airline pilot was instructing on days off, unpaid on the basis of a FI(A) rating on a PPL. Theoretically, I would suppose that is not work so those hours should not count.

I really don't think the authorities would get excited about someone doing a bit of instructing on his/her days off; the only people to get their knickers in a twist would be the airlines HR department.

HTH (apart from the confusion at the end!)

[A Very Civil Pilot]

In my case the airlines Ops manual is more limiting, in that all aerial work, including non-paid FI, counts towards the 900 hours. It's part of my contract to abide by the Ops manual, so there is no choice, even if legislation gives me more leeway.

[BelArgUSA]

Have a look at the following.
Here in Argentina, our rules are basically similar to the US 121 rules.
I can fly up to 1,000 hours a year. (Unlike the 900 with JAR) -
Can fly up to 12 hours as pilot (crew of 2 pilots + F/E) before requiring a rest period.
xxx
I sometimes give line training, line checks etc... (747-200) -
For line checks, I like to give a line check to a full crew complement, that is a Captain, a F/O and a F/E... I do that from a jump seat, so I am not part of the required minimum crew... So I log nothing towards my flight time limits.
xxx
Has happened to me that a pilot, or F/E is sick. I am current/qualified on any of the 3 seats. Suppose the F/O is not there, I fly in the RH seat... and do the line check... But now I am required to log that time towards my flight time limits.
xxx
Simulators - same situation - we account simulator time to be equal to flight time.
If I give instruction and occupy one of the 3 seats, I have to log the time and include that time to the 1,000 hrs limit. But if the 3 seats are occupied by the proper crewmembers, I can instruct standing "with my teacher's pointer", or from the jump seat, or from the instructor's console... and in that case, I do not have to log that time...
xxx
Classroom instruction is by far the most tiring to me. Nowadays, I do a lot of classroom time... There are no limits. Yet after 8 hours teaching a class of 12 new hires, from 8:00 to 17:00, for a whole week, I know why I am dead tired on friday night, and look forward to get the week-end off.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[BristolScout]

I was a bit concerned with the post from the chap who swapped flying instruction for dental work and thought it was non-remunerated instruction. Dentistry isn't cheap and therefore its provision would be deemed 'valuable consideration' by the legals, making the instruction a commercial flight.

Moral here is we all know it goes on, but it's not sensible to broadcast it.

[fireflybob]

It is obviously important that as airline pilots we obey the relevant rules appertaining to max hours etc whether laid down by statute and/or incorporated in the relevant Ops Manual(s).

However many flying clubs in the UK are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit Flying Instructors especially now the so-called "improver route" no longer exists. My prediction is that as time goes on this problem will become more acute as the "oldies" retire, lose their medicals or even expire!

From a practical point of view I cannot see that currently employed airline pilots doing a small amount of part time instruction really does any harm and in fact I think there are positive benefits. When the chips are down even airline pilots might have to resort to basic flying skills which, I believe, are enhanced by staying in touch with the basics. Instructing also develops other skills which are of benefit. Also on the other side of the coin the students are getting the experience that these pilots have to offer. (By this I do not mean to demean in anyway all those PPL Instructors out there who are also doing a great job).

In summary there is much to be gained from this sort of cross-pollenisation if I can put it this way. The airline pilots who do instruct can also talent spot those keen PPLs who wish to aspire to becoming commercial pilots and acquaint them of the pros and cons.

[IRRenewal]

Both FTL (flight time limitation) schemes and the law require a minimum number of days off per week/month/year. If you instruct on a day off, even if it is only 20 minutes on a trial lesson, it is no longer a day off. If you have a mishap in the day job the day after, it is obvious that this is because you hadn't used you day off to rest and hence it is your fault. Not good.

However, driving from London to Liverpool and back to meet an old friend on that same day off is perfectly legal and completely unregulated. Where is the logic?

[Parson]

As an aside to this, how do schools react to/accommodate airline pilots who can give a few days per month, say but on an irregular basis ie different days every week? Surely that's a nightmare for the schools/students to plan their training?

[Jumbo Driver]

In my case the airlines Ops manual is more limiting, in that all aerial work, including non-paid FI, counts towards the 900 hours. It's part of my contract to abide by the Ops manual, so there is no choice, even if legislation gives me more leeway.

AVCP, I am obviously not in a position to comment on the specific provisions of your company Ops Manual, which may of course be more restricting. However, I do believe that non-paid FI is not Aerial Work, as ANO Article 157(1) defines it as follows (my bold):

157 (1) Subject to the provisions of this article and articles 158 to 163, aerial work means any purpose (other than public transport) for which an aircraft is flown if valuable consideration is given or promised in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight.

Or, in other words, as I read it, "valuable consideration" must be given for FI to be considered Aerial Work.

JD
:)

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I think it means that the valuable consideration is given by the student to the flying club for the lesson. Whether the FI receives any of it is immaterial.

The general topic of valuable consideration has been given a good going over on the Trial Lesson (Non-Microlight) - PPL Instructor (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=298627) thread on this forum.

As it is my, ops manual specifically states all FI work is aerial work.

Here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/summary_of_public_transport.pdf) are some definitions from the CAA. Reading the document it seems to be if it's not public transport, or private, it's aerial work. Definitions of the first two are covered.

[Jumbo Driver]

I think it means that the valuable consideration is given by the student to the flying club for the lesson. Whether the FI receives any of it is immaterial.


Yes, I totally agree. Even if it were a third party who paid for (or gave valuable consideration towards) the lesson, then that flight would still be Aerial Work.

However, I do believe that in the relatively unusual circumstances that no valuable consideration is given (by anybody) for the instruction, then such a flight is not legally classed as Aerial Work. This whole subject is a bit of a perennial - it has also been discussed on a previous thread here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=176604).

If your company decides that, for the purposes of its Ops Manual, all FI shall be deemed to be Aerial Work, then clearly that is what you have to work within. However, speaking strictly legally, I believe it is not so.


JD
:)

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Jumbo
I know, it's a bit of a pain really! As IRR said abouve, i can do a t/l and be out of hours or rest, but do a 400 mile car drive, in rush hour with no problems at all!

If it was up to me, all SEP flying wouldn't count towards your rest/duty time.

[Stampe]

I instruct for my airline flying club and take no money whatsoever for it.The airline is happy that such unrenumerated flying on aircraft below 1600 kgs is not accountable as far as the company FTL scheme.As of course my students are company employees and directorsthe company has very definite proof that this flying is unrenumerated.If you do anything truly unrenumerated it has to to be a leisure activity by definition in my book.

[provo]

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who is confused by FTL and instruction/examining.

I agree that the hours that we do as instructors and examiners count towards the 900 hours etc but not so sure about the impact on days off (1 day off in 7 and 2 in 14).

My understanding was that the definition of a day off was a day free from involvement in any company business. I think that CAP 371 supports this in one of its examples of a suitable FTL scheme but I guess a lot depends on the scheme that your own company has.

There is an interesting FODCOM on the CAA website that answers some of the questions about instructional work (details below)

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200516.pdf

Any views?

[mikehammer]

From that useful link:


CAP 371 states that pilots operating on a freelance basis are required to maintain a record of flying and duty hours which must be presented to an operator before undertaking a duty period. Similarly, when a pilot undertakes secondary employment, whether paid, unpaid, instructional or reserve flying in aircraft having a Maximum Take-off Mass greater than 1600 kg, the same requirement applies in order that they meet their personal responsibility, not to be in breach of their company FTL scheme.


Would you interpret that as just being applicable to reserve flying only if above that weight, or all the mentioned types of flying only if above that weight? In other words if you are below 1600kg is there no requirement?

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

That's what I am relying on.

In a strange quirk of the system, we have a management pilot who instructs on powerboats during his day off and gets paid for it.

How come you can run full courses on boats, but not even do the occasional day's instruction, on your own terms, to help out a local flying club who are desperately short of instructors.

?????

[Gazeem]

Mikehammer,

I think it is all in the interpretation of the commas, the most pessimistic view would be only reserve aircraft under the weight are exempt and all the other types are accountable.

Can any CAA heavy weights reading this or any lawyer types throw a little light on the interpretation.

Also guys would anyone disclose what various airlines' policies are to light aircraft instructing?

Gaz

[Gazeem]

Just an afterthought, would the sentence have to read 'reserve flying in an aircraft under 1600kgs' to make it specific to reserve flying and not the rest of the sentence.

Any english teachers?