Kids in the back of a PA28

[IFMU]

Hi all,

This Sunday I'm taking the family for a first jaunt in my club PA28R-180. Does anybody have experience putting kids in the back? I've taken my 6-year old flying before in a c140 and an SGS2-33, and in those airplanes I got some big cushions to get him up higher. In either of those airplanes without cushions a little person can't see forward much, and that doesn't do much for their ability to enjoy the flight. So far I haven't used the back seat of the Arrow for anything but holding gear. I haven't sat back there. Is the visibility good for small (4.5 & 6) kids, or should I get cushions to prop them up?

On the other hand I think I might offer my wife my IFR hood. She hates flying, hasn't gone with me since before kids. Opposite problem!

-- IFMU

[Radar]

IFMU,

I regularly take the two kids with me in the Arrow. Daughter (5) sits on a small booster seat in front, Junior (2) sits behind me strapped in to his car seat with mom taking up the fourth seat. Taking the young guy along is really just to get him used to the idea but my daughter really enjoys the flying and being able to see some of what is going on plays a big role in that. The booster seat is ideal.

Enjoy :)

[B2N2]

Car kiddie seats that can be properly strapped down with the seat belt.

[JOE-FBS]

Aren't car seats designed to be held with three point harnesses?

Flame me off the subject if this is out-of-bounds but the company I work for is in the airliner cabin safety business and occasionally makes kiddie seat stuff for the airlines.

Would there be a market out there for kiddie seats and booster cushions designed for GA harnesses and using aviation approved materials? Or does someone do it already?

[Tony Hirst]

We used to have a kiddie seat in the car that could be secured with just a lap belt, haven't used it in an aeroplane.

In the aircraft, for older kids I have used one of those light weight full seats that uses the lap and should harness to secure the child over the seat. I have lately just been using boosters.

Personally, I don't think there is a market, Halfords offerings are (or were) suitable at least.

[tmmorris]

In the US there is a requirement for child seats used in aircraft - even PA28s - to be approved as such. Oddly despite all our gold plating there is no such requirement here.
You have to take a view on safety. As the PA28 only has lap straps in the back, you are exposing all occupants - not just children - to a higher risk than if there were three-point harnesses. I put my 3 year old in his car seat in the back because (a) it means he can see out; (b) I think - rightly or wrongly - that it does provide SOME protection, especially in the event of any sideways component to the impact. But I may be deluding myself about (b)...
Tim

[Check my bad SLF]

I think you'll find that some PA28 aircraft have three point harnesses in the back. Certainly the newer versions do, as do many of the later Warrior IIs that I've flown.

Those with the three-pointers on board are just the same as car seatbelts, so your kid's booster seat should be absolutely fine if you're in a suitably equipped aircraft.

If I remember correctly Beechcraft held a campaign of retrofitting three-pointers into there earlier Bonanza fleets to further improve safety after several accidents.

That aside, have a safe and enjoyable trip!

[JOE-FBS]

I would think you may be doing some good and probably no harm with the small person fully harnessed in a seat held to the aircraft with just a lap strap rather than trying to secure them with the same lap strap that will not go tight enough. Of course, in a forward impact, the seat may rotate about the straps and smack you on the back of the head but then probably so will an adult passenger behind you!

Despite my job (which I do take seriously), I am a great fan of the best safety device, in cars anyway, being a flipping great spike in the middle of the steering wheel to discourage crashing in the first place! :) Those recent Volvo ad's along the lines of "We know you are you are a perfect driver but no-one else is" make me seethe!

[Zulu Alpha]

We bought car seats that were aeroplane approved in the US and used these. It was 10-15 yrs ago and maybe you can't get them now. We went to Wal Mart and about half of the ones on offer said they were suitable for aircraft. The lap belt in the back went through the car seat frame so were easy to fit and raised the children up so they could see. We gave them ear defenders.
Most flights they just went to sleep so we could get ~2 hrs (to France or channel islands) before they woke up and wanted to get out. We used to time our departure so that they had just eaten to enhance the liklihood of them sleeping.

[TotalBeginner]

They shouldn't have any problem seeing out of the passenger windows, but they won't have much of a forward view. To be honest, I don't think any amount of cusions will improve their forward visability. I've sat in the back of an Archer III and couldn't see much other than the instrument panel.

[Pilot DAR]

I carry my 4 year old daughter on a booster seat in the front of my 150, making full use of the four point "Hooker" harness. It works very well, though my 150's front right seat is vertically adjustable, and that certainly helps.

When I take my wife and daughter in the 150, the full car seat straps down in the back. It is possible to tie off the car seat's third point belt to the two upper rear baggage net hardpoints, and tie the base of the seat to the floor fore and aft with the aft kiddy seat seatbelt hardpoints. The seat will need to be supported from behind to sit upright. This works out really well for me.

Point to remember though; as the pilot, you are responsible for assuring that occupants and items of mass in the cabin are sucured by an approved method. The term "approved" in respect of occupied car seats probably means different things to different people.

There was a recent crash of a 172 in western Canada, where the only survivor was a three year old girl found hanging in the back with very minor injuries. It was widely agreed that the car seat saved her.

For the sake of a pleasant flight (a bit for you, but really for the young person) minimze, as much as possible, altitude changes. Particularly quick ones. In my more distant past, I was guilty of carelessness in this respect witha 7 year old in the back of the C310. She taught me a lot about smooth piloting in fast planes! The kids have not quite got the hang of clearing their ears, and it can cause pain, and unhappy noises from the back when you least want the distraction. If this is the kids first flight, and you're not super experienced, take along another adult to take care of the kids. If the flight does not go so smoothly, there'll be too much for you to do to properly attend to the little one, and fly properly as well.

But take 'em for sure, it's a great thing to do!

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[tmmorris]

My 3-year-old LOVES having his own headset, though he does tend to sing over the intercom (luckily the plane I mostly fly has one of those 'pilot isolate' buttons!)

Tim

[CessnaCJM]

I have two boys now aged 5 & 7 and to be honest after the first couple of flights where they still see it as a special treat, if you want some peace in the aeroplane stick one in the front with you and the other in the back with their mother, otherwise if they are like mine they will just fight for the whole flight!!!!

Have fun:)

[IFMU]

Thanks for all the replies folks.

My 6-year old has already been flying with me, first in a C140, and then in a Schweizer 2-33. He's a veteran and loves it. My 4-year old has been dying to go. Only problem is, he is on the autistic spectrum, and does not have the full realization of the consequenses of his actions like a normal 4-year old would. Every time I sit him in the C140, one of the gliders, super cub, or pawnee he asks to go flying in it. We were at a kid's halloween party at the local air museum, and got to sit in the back of a Huey. He turns to me and asks "can we turn it on and go up?" So, I think he is pretty willing. Only problem is, whenever I sit him in the c140, or the 2-33, sooner or later he gets excited and the feet go to the instrument panel, or yoke, and that's one ride I don't want to take. So the Arrow is perfect for that, I plan on putting both kids in back else they will both want their turn up front. Another year or two of maturity and the little guy will probably be ready for the front.

The real trick will be my wife, as an avowed airplane fearing person. Doesn't matter if it is a 737, 2-33, or anything in between. And, as we have been married almost 10 years, she is way past the dating phase of pretending to like it. But my ace in the hole is the little guy, who really wants to go. So we'll see how it works out. Hope it is smooth on Sunday, weather here looks like it will be good otherwise.

-- IFMU

[Radar]

Slightly off thread but, IFMU, that photo you posted a while back on the photo forum (your eldest sitting in the back, with a big, s... eating, grin on his face) is one of the best I've seen. Sums up the joy of flight. I loved it.

Good luck on Sunday. Wish you even more luck trying to convince Mrs. IFMU to ride along!

[IFMU]

Thanks Radar. The picture doesn't do the moment justice. First in the C140, he was nervous, voice an octave up from normal. Then on climbout we go over the hill and over the trees, and I hear "There are lots of trees and some houses and I see a farm and....." in his normal voice then I knew I had him. In the SGS2-33, he was so excited I thought he was going to levitate us past the towplane. I'd been building up the whole glider flying thing, and he was good and primed. I don't think I've ever had more fun flying than that very minute.

We'll see how we do with Mrs. IFMU. One thing that got me working on my instrument rating is the poor service we have had with Northwest airlines lately. I think we could do better in the Arrow, given flexibility to wait out or beat hazardous weather. And the costs would be similar.

-- IFMU

[TheOddOne]

My younger 2 have been flying since before they were born, then as small children with car-type seats of varying types as they grew. We used to do family trips with their mother in the rear seat to keep an eye on them; we also used ear defenders rather than headsets when they were small. The lap straps in the back seemed to do a good job with various types/sizes of seat. We did discuss/go through evacuation procedures. You might want to practice undoing seats and helping little ones out before having to do it for real. Make sure the right front passenger knows that they have to get out first, before anyone else can. Tricky in a PA28.

Do watch the weight & balance. We did the exercise for our Warrior when they were still needing pushchair, changing kit etc the other end and found ourselves not only on the max weight but with the C of G pretty far aft as well, with an adult in the back and a child in the front. Unfortunately, we're WAY over the max weight limit now, for all of us to go get in the a/c, even with minimum fuel.

My son is now 15 and I'm teaching him to fly. Great!

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[IFMU]

Hi all,

Just to pre-empt the "How did it go?" questions, tommorow's flight is cancelled. I'm sick as a dog. My 4-year old is marginally better. Wife and #1 son are recovering from their illness now that they have infected the other half of the family. Too bad, as the weather will be nice tommorow. But, it's not a rush, it's important to start out right.

-- IFMU

[TotalBeginner]

it's not a rush, it's important to start out right.

Absolutely!

This years dose of cold has been rather nasty. I've only just recovered from it and certainly wouldn't want to be flying with it. (Of course mine was more than just a cold, it was man flu which is much worse! :uhoh:)