Cabin Crew Pay - Time for a Change?

[The Guvnor]

The present situation will allow many airlines to drastically realign their payscales for crew members.

Based on real life (ie the world outside airlines), I'd suggest the following:

1) Captains: pay equal to senior managers
2) First Officers: pay equal to junior managers
3) Pursers/CSDs: pay equal to or slightly higher than First Officers
4) Cabin Crew: substantially increased in current terms to encourage personnel to view flying as a viable career.

In addition, I'd suggest that the seniority system be abolished and that promotion be on the basis of ability and mutual agreement.

Comments/suggestions?

[starship]

GUV,

I would agree with you that CSD/IFD need a pay increase..Those employed under the old BA pay scale do well, however in the charter sector pay is not even a sniff on what it should be.

Pay at my last company for an IFD was close to 16K basic + 3Pounds FDP + 10% Commission.

Average take home for them was 1500 per month, No 2's about 1350 and Juniors 1100.
(averaging 12 trips per month, short haul charter).

Hows about the likes of Licenced Load Controllers despatching 5 flights per shift 5 days per week (sometimes more), irattic shifts, DETR authorised for AAA security, and Loadsheet producing taking 700 - 800 pounds a month home. That is bad....I've been there.

Cheers,

starship :)

[five percent]

Pay rise sounds like a good idea and bound to be considered in the current cost cutting, rationalisation and redundancies!!

[moosey]

I think we should just be grateful we have a job!!!

[Barryflore]

I think the basis of point 4 is a mistake. The airline does not want you to have aspirations for a career. It wants young fresh enthusiastic personalities to come and burn themselves out whilst thinking that there crap wages are a bonus for this great opportunity to see the world. Please dont turn into a crusty old career plateservers with ideas above your station!! Nice idea Guv but i think u must be a BA old boy, non?

[Fast Jet Wannabe]

CSD on the same wage as a F/O!

Oh thats really fair!

[moosey]

What's wrong with BA? Yes a lot of us see it as a career and less of the old boy, I am a young girl. I take it you are one of the bitter ones with a BA rejection letter!!

[GOLDEN LION]

Nothing wrong with BA as a career... In fact if you want to make a career of flying, BA is probably your best option. The only problem is the brain washing..... It's a shame you all think you are above the charter crews who in my opinion work alot harder and dont get there noses wiped by there management. :p

[moosey]

I don't think I am above charter crews, I think they do a damn good job and they take a lot of c*** and work a lot more harder than we do. A lot of my friends and colleagues are ex-charter

[GOLDEN LION]

Having been in the BA group for many years I feel you are in the minority if thats the case. Most BA crew feel they are up on a pedestall and look down there noses at the rest.

Your comment about others being bitter at there rejection letters speaks volumes I'm afraid.......

[crazyman]

Ask not what your Airline can do for you...

[flapsforty]

On this thread (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=015817&p=4) over in Rumours & News this same individ has tried to split up those of us who actually work in the airline business.

Happily, most of the paticipants have not fallen for his cheap ruse, apart from a few very sad cases who obviously don't know any better.

Let's see if we can do the same here and not rise to his bait? On that thread I forcefully tried to make the point that cabin crew are NOT :mad: in fact a bunch of sad individuals blessed with minimun brain capacity and a very limited perspective.

Perhaps we can prove as much here?

Please?

[laune]

It is difficult to know what exactly the job descriptions such as junior manager etc entail. Salaries, rosters, working conditions etc all vary from company to company irrespective of the job title. It is not productive to have negative discussion on this issue as it will not increase anyone's salary! A split workforce who are disagreeing with one another will be easily controlled by the powers that be.

[Quidnunc]

Guvnor,
You are a total knob.

[Crash Barrier]

Why on earth would you want to pay a biscuit chucker/ plate layer/ tucker f*cker as much or 'more' than an F/O. Sure they have a certain responsibility, but :

1.They train a fraction of a time of an F/O.

2.They do not spend close to 60k to lay plates.

3.There are only a small fraction of them that are any good, i.e. know where and how to use the equipment in an emergency.

4.Very few male c/c are sure of their sex, making the job even more difficult for the 'straight' male c/c who have their jobs constantly devalued by the formers antics.

and lastly, they have no idea of rank, i.e.
the majority think that the 'Purser' is
second in command.

Get Real Guv.

[laune]

Strange posting from Crash Barrier considering your past posts on this subject.

[Gerundive]

So Cabin Crew are not "blessed with minimun brain capacity" F40?
But they're presumably not all that literate.

[Jase Neale]

I totally agree with Quidnunc regarding the Guvnor. What a sphincter! Have you seen some of the cr*p he puts into these forums. Tellme Guv, do you have any idea what both jobs (Cabin Crew and Flight Deck) involve, and the training to achieve these positions?
18months of hard graft and endless exams just achieve a CPL with no guarantee of a job. Oh yes, the odd £50/60k that's also required to fund this. The responsibilites are somewhat different me thinks, and no cabin crew member should be paid more than an F.O. I'm sure I could dish out coffees and teas and get people down those slides but I very much doubt that a CSD/Purser could get an airliner down on the tarmac in one piece......even on a CAVOK day with no wind (do you know what CAVOK means GUV?)
Crew should be paid the market rate according to their job positions. In BA the cabin crew with allowances do very nicely compared with likes of Virgin, BMI, JMC etc. However the flight crew in the above stated airline do not. I started on £20K which is a joke!
Obviously you spend too much time behind your PC making up threads like these and playing the odd game of flight sim. Get real!

[Jungle Strip]

(Going against the grain, I'll leave out the traditional insult to the Guvnor. But nothing personal mate.) W, I know you weren't saying BA CC are well-paid in absolute terms, but comments like the one you make help to reinforce the general myth that we do very nicely thankyou. My basic pay is £9660. Ah, you say, but you coin it in allowances. No, I don't. You can do OK if you get the good trips. But at Gatwick long-haul there is only one that brings a decent return. I've done that one precisely twice in four years. My take-home is usually well under £1200 pm.
I'm only a junior grunt, and of course we shouldn't be paid as much as an F/O. But even in BA, we are NOT well-paid. How the rest of you in the real world cope, I know not.

[compression ratio]

Evidently this must be a wind up.

CSD paid "the same as" or "HIGHER" than an FO. I have to agree with a number of other posts on this.....what a joke. If that becomes the case all F/O's in the airline should strike for a pay increase.

I feel F/O's are UNDERPAID considering the substantial financial outlay in the first place. Lets compare 2 yrs worth of training versus a 4 week course and they still come out with better pay.....NO WAY.

I am not putting down Cabin Crew after all we need someone to talk to or it gets a bit boring.

[Jungle Strip]

Compression Ratio: Ouch. But I'll only add: Please bear in mind that not all CC have never done anything else.. On most longhaul cabin crews, there is at least one person with the sort of background to make any shrewd biographer sit up and take notice. They include a goodly chunk of the instantly-respectable.. lawyers, dentists, a couple of doctors, scientists, writers.. to name but a few. But then, you did say you needed someone to talk to...

[sudden twang]

There are thousands of BA cabin crew who earn the eqivalent of over £50000 pa but then again there are thousands who live on their overtime because their basic is so low .

Many BA cabin crew take home more than jet F/O's just look at the cars in the car park .

[eze-lover]

I really am amazed at the bitterness shown by some of the F/O's who post views on this site re pay. Ask a an average pax and they will say that a F/O is merely the pilots' assistant and they would be surprised that you even fly the plane, (Ive heard it said many times) Now we C/C obviously know that is not the case,however I work for BA as a PSR on longhaul and yes thankyou I do very well, but it is only the most Junior F/O who comes out with less at the end of the month. The two jobs share no comparrison and there is no reason why someone at the top of the ladder in their chosen occupation should not earn more than someone else just starting out in theirs. Experience has got to count for something and like it or not the pax are not concerned whether your R/T work was up to scratch or if your approach was satisfactory, they do however expect to have received good service and have enjoyed a product which as been delivered by a well organised and managed team of cabin crew, this comes from the direction of good senior cabin crew.
A couple of other points I recognise some F/O's take on a huge financial burden to get where they are however there are also a huge number who get 'given it on a plate' ie cadets. If you where to choose a career in the armed forces as an officer you would find that when you leave Sandhurst as a 2nd Lt that you would earn considerably less than a senior NCO such a a seargant and quite rightly so. Get over it, you will reap the rewards when you become Captain and surely this represents a better long term prospect than cabin crews' career structure.

[Jungle Strip]

At risk of getting too in-house, you must be on the famous Old Pay Scale, Eze. And yes, you guys do do OK, and then some. Though I tend to crawl through the car park with eyes lowered, lest I be dazzled by all those Mercs. I'd just like to make the point that those of us on the Infamous New Pay Scale live in a very different world. No-one is going to be dazzled by my nth-hand Renault.
As for your comments re F/Os and pay, I'm inclined to agree, especially re airline cadets. But I hope you're wearing, or at least hiding behind, something fireproof...

[compression ratio]

A couple more points on this.

Sudden Twang

50,000 pounds pa for a CSD/PRS is pretty good in my view some F/O's won't ever reach that pay on the shorthaul sectors.

Eze-lover,

Even if you go through CADETS you're put on a reduced salary for 5 years(average) anyway to pay back the costs of training. They will earn considerably less than if they were Direct Entry.
Yes we may well reap the rewards when we're captn's but 20yrs is a long time for return on investment.
Not all airline cadet programmes are sponsored, British European for example requires the cadet to contribute 32,000 pounds...yes not a typo. There are many others.....would you still view this as the "easy way". Debt before you even start working.
I agree the pax couldn't give a toss re "our approaches" but I am sure they would have something to say if we slam it on the tarmac!

Some CC may have come from other professions like medicine and LAW, but they aren't doing that now.....and so justifiably shouldn't be paid according to they previous line of work.

If you're after comparisons on jobs, compare a cabin attendant to a waitress in a restaurant, both do the same job but who gets paid more?

[The Guvnor]

There's an old saying which applies to FOs - you speculate to accumulate. In any case, it's the airlines who spend the serious money - the £50 or 60k or so you spend getting a CPL is nothing compared to what they will spend on getting you on your first jet.

Anyone who is starting off at the bottom of the ladder and expecting fantastic terms and conditions quite frankly shouldn't be let anywhere near an aircraft.

Want a comparable profession where you train for even longer than the mere 18 months it takes to get a CPL? Try doctor. That takes 7 years to become qualified and just try checking out what the pay (and work conditions!) are like during that time.

CSDs/PSRs are not - to quote some of the more ignorant people on here "biscuit chucker/ plate layer/tucker f*cker" and it's an insult to those people to say that they are. They have usually spent considerably more time in their job than FOs and are fully responsible for the safety of their passengers and colleagues. Sure, the flight deck (well, let's face it - the Captain with a bit of help from the FO (if he's up to it - not all are)) are responsible for getting the aircraft down, but on landing it's a case of sayonara from them and the CC are left to sort out the pax.

CCs and especially PSRs/CSDs are also in the front line (and now with the heightened security measures) the only line of defence with air-ragers.

So yes, I do believe that PSRs/CSDs should be paid more than FOs who are still very much in the learning process.

[Quidnunc]

Still a complete knob then, Guvnor.

[Macman]

Guv,

Are you on drugs? Who is responsible for the aircraft if the Captain is incapacitated or suffers a heart attack? It's not the CSD/Purser is it? I don't know about you but my training covered such a scenario and I had to explain what I was going to do to pass the line check...of course I could always get the CSD to land the aircraft..... :D :D :D

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Stabtrim ]

[Slickster]

-" the Captain with a bit of help from the FO (if he's up to it - not all are)) are responsible for getting the aircraft down, but on landing it's a case of sayonara from them and the CC are left to sort out the pax. "
What planet does this bird-brained idiot live on!? I think you'll find, Guv, that all FOs have to prove that they're up to it at least twice a year in an eight hour simulator detail. Meanwhile cabin crew do one day of SEP a year, which if you've ever witnessed it (I severely doubt that)is not exactly mission impossible. Incidentally oh bird-brained one, have any cabin crew ever been held responsible for the death/injury of pax following an accident? I think a few Capts and FOs have

[compression ratio]

Guv,

I still can't believe you think a CSD is higher in command of the a/c than an FO!
If you think FO's can't handle the aircraft "if they're up to it" what a load of toss. Do you think they would be there if they weren't???

It doesn't take 18months (like you said), 2 sim checks a year and 50,000 to say "Fish or chicken sir"

The two roles are completely different and as such should be paid accordingly.

I'll have to remember the term "Plate Chucker" I like that one!!!

Bottome line FO's should be on a higher salary than the CC's.

[catchpoint]

FO Pay the same as cabin crew. I have had Engineering design, project, contract and asset management experience since graduating from University 6 yrs ago. I sign off 1 million per month so my work has led me to much travel. I've observed just how hard the cc supposedly work. I can't believe the number of times I've been on midday flights half to a third full, where the cc merely serve a box of snacks on the whole flight. Oh on the real busy flights they serve a meal. I reckon I could do that with zeroe training. Oh but they probably also save lives. Oh you'll probably find 300,000 other kids on volunteer surf patrol every weekend in Australia doing the same thing. One day first aid will serve that. Oh emergency procedures, I'd bet I could learn those in a day. Correct me if I'm wrong but the prerequisite for cc is hospitality experience. Not even the completion of secondary education. Correct me if I'm wrong but after the money spent on flying and the minimum reqs met for pilot recruitment, you then have to pass iq tests, which would put a successful applicant amongst the more smarter people around. The sacrifices I've seen friends make to pursue a career in aviation have been awesome. Not to mention those who didn't make it, ie those that started mustering cattle at 18 who made great pilots but accidentally got thumped in the head and killed by a bull. Oh you never hear about those. Now the airlines want pilots who are also degree educated and have management experience. Well if they want people who can manage money and not pathetically squander it like Ansett Management and they expect to pay these people an entry wage in line with a glorified server of hamburgers forget it. I've always loved flying and considered changing careers but the thought of an entry wage in line with cc. Forget it. Thats degrading and an insult to my intelligence. Oh and a waitress actually needs to understand the menu.

[flapsforty]

People, when the guv posted this same thread on R&N, it degraded into a slag-off the cabin crew match.
Despite the fact that not even one FA has supported the guv's idea's on pay on this thread, the same thing is happening here, sadly.......

Gentlemen, why not think a bit before you post so heatedly?
Why start pouring scorn on the cabin crew with whom you are supposedly forming a team?
Why let you yourselves get all riled up by an individual who does not work as either cabin or cockpit crew but who apparently delights in stirring up bad feeling between the 2 groups?

It saddens me to see this, so I repeat a post I made on the same thread "up-above".

Quotes:

For one, they (FO's) are trained PROFESSIONALS (unlike cabin crew - it doesn't take a great deal of nouce to open a door and direct people down a slide) and for another they are 2IC in every ops manual I've ever worked to. (after the skipper).
******
How could CC ever be a profession when the job doesn't require ANY intelligence. DOH
******
"Indeed, a CSD/Purser should be earning slightly more than an FO due to their greater levels of responsibility"
Ahh, come on Guv!
Look at the training involved to get to there.

No quarrel at all with the fact that an FO makes more than I do; "supply and demand", straightforward.

With our mob the Captain is always good naturedly referred to as “The Boss”. It's a good & realistic gauge of the respect he or she is held in by cabin and cockpit crew alike.

But regarding some of the comments made on this thread, let me say this:

To become a Purser in our outfit, we have to be fluent in 4 languages besides our mother tongue. It took me almost 2 years of study for each of those exams. And that’s for a person blessed with a reasonable flair for languages.
I know of many colleagues who spent a lot more time and money than I did, to get where they are now.
All this in one’s own time, while working full time and taking care of a house and a family with young children, and with a financial recompense from the company which doesn’t even begin to cover the cost of the years of private tuition we have to take since no regular language class will fit in with a “normal” flight schedule.

Once we have the languages, we can apply for the next step up the ladder.
To prepare for that interview generally takes anything between 2 and 6 months of studying management theory, aggression-psychology, motivational tools etc etc.
The process involves 2 days of rigorous psychological screening, and has a 50% prune-rate.
Then 6 months of training follows.

There are 2 more steps to become a Wide Body Purser, and at each stage, there is a fall-out rate of again about 50%.
All fair enough, no complaints from me, you want to get somewhere, you’ll have to invest in yourself.


Which brings me to the total crap that some of you have been spouting on this thread about the job that I do. All it does is highlight your very limited understanding of what the job of CSD/Purser entails.
And it shows that even among the best & the brightest, some total f*ckwits exist. :D

I consider myself fortunate in many different ways; not least because the vast majority of the pilots I work with are men and women of intelligence, integrity, professionalism and a sincere no bull-sh!t desire to jointly provide our pax with the best possible service!


I am not a pilot, and never do I aspire to “rise above my station”.

But by God I am due some respect for what I am, for the job I do, and for what it took me to get here!

[catchpoint]

"Why let yourself get all riled up by an individual who does not work as either cabin or cockpit crew"

Wasn't it both cabin and cockpit crew on national television not long ago asking for support and help from, "I dare say" Individuals who do not work as either cabin or cockpit crew. Err Hmm

[flapsforty]

catchpoint, can't answer that one, since I don't live in Oz, but I'm sure you are correct.
But what does that have to do with anything?

Do you think it's justifiable to start slagging off cabin crew for something the guv has posted? If so, we understand eachother, but disagree.

And as for posting a facile one-liner, of course you are free to do that, although I would be interested in reading what you think about the other points I raised in my post.
Not to see if any points can be scored, but to see if we can't agree on a number of things?

[Sick Squid]

This argument is creating division at a time when the industry needs to remain together. The fostering of enmity between people who SHARE the responsibility for the safe outcome of a flight is not something I wish to see under my watch.

Any of the value that could have been extracted from a debate of this nature has long gone, and we are now down that well-trodden circular-argument path. This serves no one, and benefits only those who may delight in seeing conflict created out of thin air for whatever agenda they wish to serve.

As someone who believes passionately in the concept of unity, particularly when faced with new and extreme challenges that must be met as a team, I do not wish to help in any way to foster an atmosphere that encourages the opposite.

I am this close to closing the topic down. Strength of argument wins a debate, not sniping, personal attacks or alienating tactics. Similarly, merely stonewalling on your own favoured stance achieves nothing other than antagonism. I am willing to believe that no-one on here is consciously looking to create such antagonism... prove me right.

Give and take, people. Give ...and... take.

[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[radeng]

As SLF, I've been surprised to find out just how poorly paid most airline jobs are - at least at the 'sharp ends' of cc, the actual 'drivers' and maintenance. Yes, we all read about captains on £200k a year but that's very much the minority, while very few members of the public realise just how poorly paid, for example, the F/O on a US regional can be paid. Every time we get on an aircraft, we get told that 'cabin crew are here for your safety'. There's an argument that says judging by the amount they're paid, the airlines don't actually care much about the subject!

So is the argument about pay differentials, or the amount of pay? It's arguable that a CSD or whatever you want to call them on a widebody with several hundred PAX has similar responsibilities to the FO in many ways, so the pay should be comparable. Having seen some of the PAX that have to be dealt with, there must be times when being FO has advantages! Leads you at time to understand why cc can be a bit grumpy.....

I've always found the biggest problems to be on the ground - such as baggage staff in the US, whose attitude is frequently totally unhelpful - probably because of the airline approach of minimum wages to just about get the job not done.

I'm in favour (as a PAX who occasionally pays for himself, rather than his employer doing it) of paying a bit extra for being flown and looked after in a well maintained aluminium chicken by a crew whose pay is such that they aren't worried about being able to pay the mortgage this month...

How well paid are the bean counters?

[flyblue]

Someone believes (as it has fully been demonstrated as the thread went on) that to form a C/A it is sufficient to be on a 1 month course and wear a uniform. Tragically some self made airline managers (who were trained to be on apple pie business) think the same, so it is the way they form CA (luckily lots of C/A formed in the above mentioned way later find their way into the skills of the profession themselves).
Well, this is not the norm.
It takes months and years, as Flaps points out, to make a good C/A. Not someone to hand you a mealbox or open a door, but a good C/A.
Do I tell those people who open their mouth to talk about things they don't know how to do their job? No, because I don't know it. Do they think they know my job because they fly and see a C/A in the cabin? Do I know how to perform a surgery because I watch the surgeon?

I have an universitary tuition, speak 4 languages fluently and am comfortable and can deal with all kind of pax, from a small kid to a State President . I was not in university to be trained as a C/A, but what I have studied contributed to my formation as a CA.
And as Flaps does, I am still studying to be a better C/A. This month I'll be on a ground course for 1 week.
And even if I don't have sim checks (and I am not trying to make comparisons with pilots) I have a general safety ground course followed by a test plus a ground course followed by a test every year for each aircraft type we fly. Plus a first aid course followed by a test and a smoke/ditching drills every other year.
I am not a pilot (and as Flaps, never wished to be) but another kind of professional, a very skilled one and proud of it. :D

Edited for spelling

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[recceguy]

Please all of you - however interesting could your letters be, please consider that:
this "Guvnor" is nothing, just a buffoon who has already been unmasked in other threads, where he started new topics in a provocative manner, just for the fun of watching other people in bitter arguments.
He claimed in another thread to be somebody with airline management experience :D but as somebody pointed out, very unlikely with the time he spends writing in those forums!
probably a sort of retired individual computer-addict, with an spotting interest in aviation.
Hey "guv", time to change call-sign maybe ?now?

[ohitsmonday]

When will everyone learn.....

The guvnor loves to get us all arguing. Rise above and ignore :confused:

[The Groover]

Well Said that man Crash Barrier !!!

When are the 'All day deli' chuckers going to learn that they are overpaid as it is, their arrogance in these times astounds me.

As the graet Harold Enfield one said......
BISCUIT CHUCKERS - KNOW YOUR PLACE !!!


TG

----------------------------

We continue.................

[WelshCityFlyer]

Have tried to contain myself regarding this thread, but I'm afraid the last posting ruined my resolve, so here goes:

I am ASTOUNDED by the sheer arrogance of the pilots who have responded on this post - who the hell do you think you are?? A percentage of you don't even have an 'A' level to your name, let alone higher education: (or anything else, for that matter).

OK - so you fly - BUT your aviation skills are far surpassed by that smallest of creature, the bird, (who has a small brain, but can navigate its' way around the world without the use of computers, or any other flight aid).

I work as cabin crew - I have a degree in computing, PLUS a pilots licence, AND, (unlike most of you), an ability to communicate and get on with people, (as you have to have in the cabin).

The only profession that gains my respect is that of the medical one - they HAVE to be highly qualified, work very long hours, plus as juniors, get paid VERY little, unlike you pilots, who sit at the front, read a newspaper, get served your food, then f*** O** as soon as the A/C lands back at base.

The cabin crew, on the other hand, have the MUCH harder job of dealing with the pax before THEY can depart the aircraft.

What I'm saying is this: ANYBODY can get a pilots licence: don't think that you are all way above the cabin crew just because you are lucky enought to make it pay.

WCF

[flapsforty]

Groover.......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

WCF, may I suggest you have a look at the profile of the poster above you?

Bluey, pleasure to read your post!

Don't you worry 6£, not another controversial word out of me. ;)

--------------------


How fragile we are..................

[flyblue]

He he he Welsh,
I am sure Squiddie will fall off his chair on this one! But please accept my compliments, you have a real talent for invective! ;)


Oh-oh, I can see the big lock coming!

Flaps, the pleasure is mutual :)

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[Crash Barrier]

WCF,

Are you a failed Pilot maybe ?? Sounds like it. Bet you are in the flight deck all the time, saying 'well if only I had passed my ATPL exams, then I would not have to biscuit chuck or plate lay for a living'

[flyblue]

:D :D :D He he, I was SURE it was coming when I read WCF had a pilot's licence. And here it is, ladies and gentlemen, one of the pet phantasms in the mind of the smallbrained between the pilots: the C/A , especially the ones with a pilot licence, are failed pilots!
Thank you Crash Barrier for not disappointing us! :D :D :D

[Crash Barrier]

So, how would you see it then Flyblue ??
Are you honestly saying that you would rather biscuit chuck/ plate lay and just use your PPL for fun, leaving it to the pro's ?

I imagine 99% of FA's with a PPL would either:
a. Want to take it further to gain an ATPL
or
b. Have already done so and failed, hence chucking biscuits is a viable alternative to an office job, and they can still poke their head in the flight deck every chance they get.

The other alternative to them is to suck up to the chief pilot every time they see him, to gain that 'elusive' sponsorship.

WCF, which one are you ???

[Crash Barrier]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

............................................................ .........................................................
Jeez, where did this one come from? I'm locking it; this is one of the late and not at all lamented Guvnors sycophantic attempts to garner support from whatever quarter. Done to death back then, it was.

Please, only resurrect ancient threads like this if you have something sensible to add, and feel the debate is worthwhile. Merely adding two smilies I do not class as sensible comment under any circumstances.

Sick Squid
CC Forum Moderator