The Virgin Strike Thread (Merged)

[mikeyuk]

Thought some of of you might be interested in this topic ( Not just Virgin crew )

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g34515-i19-k1545247-Virgin-Orlando_Florida.html

Take a look at pages 8 onwards especially.

[mikeyuk]

This was the post that was removed

Actually I have experienced the fantastic training on aircraft.
Last time we went to Florida My 3 year old choked on a sweet. Not one of the cabin crew knew what to do. It was me that dislodged it and saved her life.(without any formal training). Although I will say they were very good at cleaning up the aftermath when she vomited everywhere afterwards. Not once after that did they even bother to check on her.
On the same flight we were stuck on the tarmac for an hour in a heatwave. With no aircon. My 18 month daughter got hysterical and started suffering from heat exhaustion. The cabin crew, however just came over and simply told me to put her lap belt on otherwise we would delay the flight further. (At this point we were still at the gate!). Not an offer of a drink for her or anything. She was purple by the time we took off. After landing we realised that she had had a febrile convulsion. What caring crew!
On another flight we had to make an emergency landing. One of the highly trained cabin crew cried the whole way down, very reassuring for passengers
Cabin crew have 6 weeks training which just gives them enough time to touch on each topic, not explore them in depth.
You should be ashamed of yourself to think that you are anywhere on par with firefighters or nurses.
As for 9/11, that was an isolated incident. Lets remember that 1000's of emergency crew lost their lives when they bravely chose to go into buidings which were highly unstable. If the cabin crew had a way out, they would have walked without thinking twice. The firefighters however did not.
I have many friends who were/are cabin crew and they don't do it for the money. they do it for the social life, the travel and the discounted flights.

[scoobydooo]

Hats off to AV8babe on there, obviously argued a case professionally vs the other poster/s that kept having their post removed, lol .

I see virgin won lots of awards yesterday too, wonder if the headlines for those will be tied up with crew about to ballot for industrial action too.

[strike1]

Listen i have been with virgin for more than 10 years, and i love my job, but enough, is enough, i am fed up of getting paid in parties, discounts on other virgin companies, flight concessions that cant use cause i have no money etc, if virgin thinks they can get away with for ever , well sorry, but time has now come, we have come this far and we must stick together, the campaign now to get us all divided must not work! do you seriously think virgin will go down because of a stike???? i mean how many airlines ( incl. BA) have had strikes and nothing happened! if they didnt go down few years ago when they managed to pay pilots 30% !!!!!!!! more, and that probaly represents much more than giving us a 10% rise!!
So gro up people, be strong, stick to ur guns, i youll see how quickly the money comes up from under rock! ( actually, some fiscal parasise in the caribbean)!!!!!

[monkeybusiness2]

Actually I have experienced the fantastic training on aircraft.
Last time we went to Florida My 3 year old choked on a sweet. Not one of the cabin crew knew what to do. It was me that dislodged it and saved her life.(without any formal training). Although I will say they were very good at cleaning up the aftermath when she vomited everywhere afterwards. Not once after that did they even bother to check on her.
On the same flight we were stuck on the tarmac for an hour in a heatwave. With no aircon. My 18 month daughter got hysterical and started suffering from heat exhaustion. The cabin crew, however just came over and simply told me to put her lap belt on otherwise we would delay the flight further. (At this point we were still at the gate!). Not an offer of a drink for her or anything. She was purple by the time we took off. After landing we realised that she had had a febrile convulsion. What caring crew!
On another flight we had to make an emergency landing. One of the highly trained cabin crew cried the whole way down, very reassuring for passengers
Cabin crew have 6 weeks training which just gives them enough time to touch on each topic, not explore them in depth.
You should be ashamed of yourself to think that you are anywhere on par with firefighters or nurses.
As for 9/11, that was an isolated incident. Lets remember that 1000's of emergency crew lost their lives when they bravely chose to go into buidings which were highly unstable. If the cabin crew had a way out, they would have walked without thinking twice. The firefighters however did not.
I have many friends who were/are cabin crew and they don't do it for the money. they do it for the social life, the travel and the discounted flights.


All this from one passenger? Ummmmmmm very unfortuante and very unlikely.

[Jcdcon]

Strike1

You are missing a major point - the company is not trying to divide us. The fact is that the crew are divided - you only have to look at the overall number of crew who said no to the last deal in relation to the total number of crew emplyed by the company - its a minority. The company adhered to the demands of the union. They gave what they were asked for.

If you believe that BA did not suffer damaging effects from their numerous strikes, the you are very misguided. They also have the stronger brand, resources and pots more money in the bank to weather difficulties like that. A recent compensation case based on flights cancelled by strike is likely to cost BA millions. They can afford it. VAA cannot and to promote the myth that we can is foolish.

[VCCM]

You may well have seen the communication on I-Fly stating that they have not heard from the union regarding the Industrial ballot. I asked Mr Boyd about this and the Ifly memo and why we have not received our ballot forms yet, his response (I wont cut and paste it but was worded in the following fashion)

Thanks for your email I will forward your question to MR SMITH (name changed) who is the officer responsible for VA. In order to conduct an "Industrial Action Ballot" the membership details for all our members has to be confirmed, VA are aware of this he went on to suggest that the memo that has been issued on I-fly is likely to be an attempt to disenfranchise the cabin crew from the efforts the union is making on our behalf

VCCM

[Trishaturbulance]

I don't often post on here and have kept well out of this argument so far. I have my own thoughts and feelings on the subject and don't want to get dragged down with all the politics. But has anyone else found that it all seems to have gone a bit quiet on board? I.e, apart from the day when the news came out about the deal being rejected, in my experience no one seems to be discussing it? At least in galley 4 anyway! To be honest, from the chat you wouldn't know anything was going on!

Is this because the crew are beyond caring? What do you think?

[pokergirl]

I can confirm boyds email in sorts as amicus contacted me last week to confirm my details, so at least something he has said is true !!!! And i certainly dont think the crew are beyond caring. Yes it has gone on for ages but i know that i aint talking about it onboard as the passengers dont need to hear it!!!! We all care about the company, just want a decent deal.

[scoobydooo]

Issued recently fromt he union

Dear Colleague,

Re Industrial Update


Following on from my recent letter, I thought it would be helpful to update you on the process that will follow as we move towards the ballot for industrial action.

The process of conducting such a ballot requires a thorough check on our membership details which has now been completed. Our legal department are now also conducting a crosscheck on this information before any formal correspondence is sent to Virgin Atlantic advising them of the next step in this process.

We thought it was important, however, to remind you that your representatives are currently operating to their flying roster during this dispute with the company. Representational issues involving disciplinary and grievance procedures are, however, continuing and will be supported on your behalf by your reps.

As you are also no doubt aware, there are several outstanding issues, other than pay, still being dealt with through the grievance procedure, two of which are;

Late Payment of Allowances
The uplift in the subsistence allowances that you recently received in 2007 was in fact monies owed from 2006! – 2007 monies are still owed and have yet to be submitted to the Inland Revenue for approval, thus the delay in receiving the correct monies is still ongoing!!

Part Time Crew
Part time crew may be working too many days in relation to their contracts and therefore not receiving the correct payments. This issue should have been reviewed in August 2007 and as a result leaves the policy open to possible challenge if an agreement is not achieved.

Other Issues
Hotel moves out of Manhattan(VS017/001) into New Brunswick, not to mention the 5 hour wait for crew rooms on the Friday ANU!, issues over car park passes, promotion, missing variable payments, 900 hour roster equitability, Crew Down and so the list goes on!

It is vital therefore that as members you engage and support your representatives on all of the issues that continue to have an effect on your terms and conditions at Virgin Atlantic.

We do, however, need this support, not only in relation to delivering a pay award that is acceptable, but also in increasing our strength and standing within Virgin Atlantic, that will allow us to resolve these and other industrial issues on your behalf.

Your continued support is vital.

Yours sincerely

[scoobydooo]

Strike Vote Ballot Going out on the 3rd December Result 20th December Linda Manure throwing toys out the cot on Ifly saying no further talks and no 11th hour deal will come.

Now everyone vote this time please and lets get what we are due.

[scoobydooo]

From cc.com


I was trying to find out what these dates mean in terms of when the Industrial action would be if it happened, I found this link, workers rights regarding Industrial action and the rules that must be followed.
http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/employment-legislation/employment-guidance/page18476.html (http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/employment-legislation/employment-guidance/page18476.html)

It contains lots of stuff about how you can't be discriminated against etc etc but in terms of timings I found this;

The union's first call for industrial action to which the ballot relates must be made before the end of the period of four weeks beginning with the date of the ballot or such longer period not exceeding eight weeks as the union and employer may agree. Industrial action to which the ballot relates must also first take place within that period.


If interpret that correctly it means that the ballot will be for dates within 4 weeks of the 3rd of December i.e. over Xmas/NY period !?
Though I may be incorrect, though it would make sense why the union have held off on the ballot as the action has to be within 4 weeks of the date of ballot so they could cover Christmas and New Year !

lots of other useful information on that site, worth a read and to know your rights as a member (rather than what the employer will tell you what your rights are).

[900]

The industrial action regulations (to my understanding) are that the first day of action must take place within 4 weeks of the LAST day of the ballot and the union should give 7 days' notice of the the first day of action.
So, a maximum of 3 weeks after the ballot before the union has to notify its intention to take industrial action, for negotiations to continue. If the union wants to and the company lets it!

[Captb747]

Linda Manure


And you expect people to take you seriously.......:hmm:

[Jcdcon]

My thoughts exactly Capt.

I believe that there will be no more talks as there are legal requirements and constraints which now have to be met.

I also believe that LM was simply restating that there will not be a higher offer made to counter the threat of strike. Many still falsely believe that the company will be held to ransom and offer more to avert strike action. It is not going to happen.

Hardly throwing the toys out of the pram. At least VAA and Linda have the common courtesy to keep staff up to date. The same cannot be said for the Union (who it seems cannot even achieve the simple administrative task of keeping their members details up to date).

[yachtno1]

Please tell me exactly what your grievancies are ..and will it be worth striking if the company goes under in a week?

[Virginfun]

Vote NO to a strike and lets get back to flying as normal!!

[back2front]

Exercise your democratic right to make a choice of your own.

I will be voting YES to strike. Its about time things changed at Virgin Atlantic. They've been taking the p**** out of crew for too long and nothing has been said. We can now vote to get things changed.

Low trip pay, allowances not being paid correctly, crew down too often and not paid enough for working crew down, changes of hotel without union consultation, not being informed of delays so stuck at airport in UK or overseas even though company know there are delays, no formula for crew rest breaks on board, no long range pay and on and on and on.

Vote YES to strike

[tired]

strikertworedshoes - you do get paid for dayas off, and you will lose money for every day that you are on strike. If you earn £900 per month, and there are 30 days in the month that works out to £30 per day. If you go on strike for 5 days, of which 3 days are rostered as a trip and 2 days rostered as days off, you will lose £150 of wages, not £90.

[back2front]

It will be worth it :ok:

[VCCM]

It all comes down to risk versus reward. Some are willing to risk a relatively low % of their yearly salary in order to seek rewards for the rest of their careers within the airline.

What it will cost the airline in comparison to the individual crew member is huge. Crew would rather not take the risk but when backed into a corner there is no further choice and a joint front must be presented.

Perhaps other parties who have bonuses linked to turnover (which may be reduced by Industrial action) wont love the idea.

Good luck everyone.

[yachtno1]

There are probably quite a few "Other Parties" who have their livelyhood linked to their continued employment with VA. Ah well... at least BA will do better when VA are out of the way ....:ugh:

[tired]

strikertworedshoes - let me explain it another way. Your salary will be divided by 365 to get a daily rate. VS will deduct that amount from your wages for every day you're on strike. You will be considered to be on strike from the first day you refuse to work until the day that you next go to work. That's the law.

Why don't you ask one of the flight deck reps next time you go to work - BALPA seems to be a much better organised and more efficient union than Amicus - they're certainly better informed.

[scoobydooo]

Sorry tired, Not sure how flightdeck works but striker is right regarding the calculated value of a day off work, it is not simply salary/365 for us. Take a day of unpaid leave and it is much higher becasue of this.

Take for example this extract from another poston another forum


Point 3.
Where did you hear a JNR is on £39 per day. I have the lastest daily rates of pay here and its more like £55. Basic salary is not divided by 365 days but by approx 260, taking into account rest days and holiday.

If we were on £55 a day x365 would on £20K basic for a junior... I dont think we would be in this situation if that was the case ;)

[back2front]

Yes it will be pro-rated for part time crew

[alfamatt]

Yachtnumber1
I don't think BA would be better off without VS's competition, as I believe competition is healthy for all concerned.
But then I also don't think that anything except a very lengthy strike (which I can't see happening) would bring VS down.
Do any of you VS guys & girls feel slightly miffed that the bearded one says he hasn't got the money to give you the deal you want, & yet has got the money to bail out Northern Rock? I know VS & the Virgin "empire" have different financial structures, but even so............................................
Matt.

[exvicar]

Isn't the 'bearded one' heading a financial consortium with most of the money for Northern Rock coming from other groups and institutions? I think has financial involvement is comparatively small.

[In The Pink]

Virgin's consortium, including hedge fund Toscafund and US buyout specialist Wilbur Ross, would pay for £650m of the capital injection, including £200m from Virgin itself. The rest would come from a six-for-one rights issue of stock at 25p a share, which would leave Virgin owning 55pc of the company if shareholders take up all their rights.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml;jsessionid=KKMMP40AV2RI5QFIQMFSFF4AVCBQ0IV0?xml=/money/2007/11/27/cnrock127.xml

You'd almost feel sorry for them....:hmm:

[scoobydooo]

I was looking back to see just what it was that BA cabin crew called off their strike for, here is what they achieved.

British Airways cabin crew vote to accept 4.6% pay and pensions deal
18 April 2007 11:00

British Airways cabin crew voted by a 76% majority to accept a new pay deal negotiated at the end of January.
The British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association (Bassa), a branch of the Transport and General Workers Union (T&G), recommended the deal following meetings involving T&G general secretary Tony Woodley and BA chief executive Willie Walsh.
It means that 11,000 cabin crew approves an 18.75% rise in their pensionable pay figure and accepted changes to aid a £2.1bn deficit on the BA New Airlines Pension Scheme.

Key points of the deal included:
A two-year pay deal, including an above inflation 4.6% increase in the first year from 1 February
Increase in pay for pension purposes by 18.75%
New pay rates to bridge the gap between the pre- and post-1997 grades with four new incremental steps
A new joint approach to the sickness absence policy, which reflects the particular pressures on cabin crew
900-hour maximum flying time per year
The BA chief executive commits to meeting with the Bassa senior representatives on a quarterly basis
Jack Dromey, T&G deputy general secretary, said the result was good for members, BA and the travelling public. “The new era of respect for cabin crew is established and we welcome the direct involvement cabin crew representatives will now have with Willie Walsh,” he said.


SO that sets the benchmark then ;) <<note this wink it means something

edited to keep the peace

[exvicar]

BA made £600 million profit last year. Virgin allegedly made...........£6 million. The BA crew also had the support of the union and followed their recommendations. I wish you the best of luck but you are a complete dreamer if you are holding out for 18%.

[scoobydooo]

Certainly not holding out for anything like that, though am looking forward to the next negotiations when Amicus and T&G will have completed their merger and the experience and might of T&G will be on board.

I feel there will be some serious changes in line for Virgin. From a company that refused to recognise the cabin crew union 6 years ago to the stepping stone of Amicus, to the might of T&G, it's going to be so refreshing. I cant wait :)

[alfamatt]

Just to clarify that BA c.crew didn't get a 18% pay rise in the last strike threatened deal.
That figure relates to the % of the basic pay that was pensionable in the newer pension package. ie the amount of the basic pay that was pensionable went up by 18.75%.
The strike was threatened as the crew felt that there were several issues that were not being talked about/negotiated by the company & the list of "failure to agree" motions was growing alarmingly.
There was a historically large % of union members returning their voting papers, & over 96% voted for action.
Even with that level of solidarity, it was bloomin' scary/horrible stuff to go through, & the rumour mill about what BA would do to strikers was rife (& inaccurate). There was eventually quite a few crew who felt the final deal was still not good enough, the pension part of the deal in particular was not popular.
BA being unwilling to put money into the pension package, yet still posting fair profit figures & spending large sums of money elsewhere (eg the fuel surcharge affair. Thanks a lot, VS!!) & Branson refusing to pay VS crew any more yet put £200 mill into N.Rock is fairly similar to my eyes, unless I'm missing some detail.
Best of luck,
Matt.

[stansdead]

scoobydoo

You see, your post just highlights the ignorance and lack of awareness of what you are all doing.

BA do not pay pension contributions on all the money you earn. VS do. Every penny of basic wage is pensionable.

That means that for every 100p you earn, Virgin put in 10p (or whatever) to your pension.

For the purposes of this simple explanation, let's assume that BOTH companies contribute 10% to a pension.

In BA, for every 100p they earn, BA put in a percentage (let's say 75%) of pensionable pay into a pension for you. So,again, let's say they put in 75% of pensionable pay into a pension at the same contribution rate that VS do, i.e. 10%:

100p x 10% (x75%) = 7.5p per 100p earned in a pension for you in BA

100p x 10% = 10p per 100p earned in a pension for you in VS.

Even if BA upped the pensionable pay by 18.75%, that is still less than you have put in your scheme, because it still does not add up to 100% of pensionable pay.

So, before you go bandying about 18% pay rises, why don't you read their paydeal properly and try and understand it before listening to bullsh1t.

Go on strike and the WHOLE company suffers. Other jobs WILL be lost and you will achieve nothing.

ACCEPT the paydeal and move on to the next set of negotiations in 18 months as a more unified and dignified group.

It's an inflation busting and very VERY fair deal in the business climate we are in currently.

Yours, a Virgin Atlantic A340 FO.

[Litebulbs]

VS 100% of cock all is still cock all.

BA 75% of a very good wage is still good.

[scoobydooo]

stansdead (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=117330)

...and the other side of the coin is we would love it if not all our pay was pensionable but in return we even came close to what BA cabin crew earn in non pensionable pay allowances trip pay crew down, working up, block payments, delay payments etc etc the list is endless, if we had that I would earn more per month, the company would contribute less to my pension however I could contribute personally to my pension and reclaim the governments portion on my tax return, outcome I would get more in hand and in my pension etc etc.

The reason for the post was to highlight what can and has been "achieved" through industrial action.

As to what it will cost the company and others (maybe, allegedly in jobs), I am fully aware of that too but thanks fore refreshing me on the issue.

Why are you so agressive anyway ?

p.s. its posts like yours (insinuating I have mentioned an 18% pay rise [whish I have not], use of foul language, telling us to accept the deal [when you are on considerably more than us] and move on) that probably push people who were not sure on what to vote into the yes zone, thanks :ok:

[stansdead]

scoobydoo

Don't be so silly.

If you were not insinuating an 18.75% rise, why did you write it in bold ?

You know that your post is misleading and haven't got the balls to admit you are wrong on it.:mad:

[Tags]

Scoobydoo,

VS recently declared less than 0.5% ROS. I don't think you'll get any more money - sadly there will then be three groups that lose out: the crew, the company & the customers.

Accept the offer this year, and as you say go in to the next round of negotiations with your new and improved union in a stronger position.

[yachtno1]

Some posters seem to think all BA f/as are on big bucks it's not true the Gatwick contingent are on a similar rate to Easy ...:)

[ZH875]

changes of hotel without union consultation


Wow, if that is a valid reason to strike, my teddy will be called Mohammed.


FFS - Get a life. :ugh:

[SpannersatVS]

Been talking to a few of the crew & there would appear to be a big move in the support the flightdeck are giving. Could that possibly be due to Pilots pay talks in January:confused:

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Pilot's pay talks start in January for implementation in July. The Pilots and their union will remain impartial throughout any Cabin Crew industrial action.

[stansdead]

strikertworedshoes
quote: happy flying haha
????
I am perfectly happy, I never said anything to suggest otherwise. Did I ?

[scoobydooo]

You know that your post is misleading and haven't got the balls to admit you are wrong on it.:mad:

... so, about that CRM course !!

If anyone takes the time to read the post you draw reference to you will see at no point it says they achieved a pay rise of XX.X% though I agree it could be misinterpreted if somone did not take the time to read the entire newsfeed article. To keep you happy I have done back to ammend the bold to include the pensionable pay text also. Regardless it is still a good achievement and shows what can be achieved by a united workforce prepared to stand their ground (You know, a bit like the pilots did when the company was in a 'CLIMATE' far worse than it is now).

night x

[In The Pink]

stansdead

Will the Pilots accept an extra month of standby for an RPI increase next July?...thought not...but you expect the cabin crew to!

I have ZERO faith in the current management having this airline in better financial shape in 18 months time.

[scoobydooo]

Will the Pilots accept an extra month of standby for an RPI increase next July?...thought not...but you expect the cabin crew to

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:ok:

[bagsybtmbunk]

In your dreams vote No - a few weeks ago I was genuinely really undecided but after 17 years of hearing the same old same old,I am now ready to strike. I'm just absolutely sick and tired of working with an inadequate product (ife, lack of onboard catering supplies, crew and the list goes on and on). I am very grateful to have a job after 2 Gulf wars, however, enough is enough. We've gone this far and can't be doing all this fiasco every yearly pay review - so let's just stick it out and see what happens. Vote YES! I'm sure you've all had similar experiences to my recent full load I/B flight on A340-600 with 4 .........yes 4 crew down. BA would have most definately canx that flight but not us. Well I've done 17 years of bending over backwards on behalf of my employer now as I'm getting older it's time someone else bent a little too to show their appreciation.
Rant over and out!

[SKYMAN]

VsFSM Oct1990

"so let's just stick it out and see what happens. Vote YES!"

What will happen is you will get only the companywide pay rise with a high risk of taking the company down. You have a good offer! Grab it while you can and get a better union rep from Unite next time round!

[Virginfun]

I will be voting no for strike! and will be happy to go to work to help the company if the strike goes ahead.

I think we should take the 4.8% and run!

[scoobydooo]

What will happen is you will get only the companywide pay rise with a high risk of taking the company down

Yeah, far more expensive than just getting back round the table with the union for some talks, it better be the next company announcement on ifly seeing as the ballots are due tomorrow and there's a he*l of a lot of people that feel like VsFsm_Oct1990 right now.

I will be voting no for strike! and will be happy to go to work to help the company if the strike goes ahead.

I think we should take the 4.8% and run!

Of course you will virginfun, you'd probably work for free too.:ugh:

[SKYMAN]

"Yeah, far more expensive than just getting back round the table with the union for some talks, it better be the next company announcement on ifly seeing as the ballots are due tomorrow and there's a he*l of a lot of people that feel like VsFsm_Oct1990 right now."

No point getting back round the table, as there is no more on offer.

[scoobydooo]

simple then, got my marker out for the yes TICK, if it's the only way the company will listen. :sad:

[stansdead]

scoobydoo

Try singing this: I'm gonna be lonely this Christmas, when I have no dough, I'm gonna be lonely this Christmas, when I am all alone...." to the tune of "lonely this christmas" by elvis.

It could get expensive on the picket line.... outside BAA and Virgin land of course.

[I Just Want To Fly]

yachtno1 - I can't speak on behalf of everyone, but when I talk about BA, I am thinking about BA Worldwide Fleet. They operate similar routes to us. BA LGW is a mixed fleet L/H & S/H. BA Worldwide, both new and old contracts are still higher than us! Even the people on the new temp contracts are getting more per flying hour when you take into account al there alowances and trip pay.

I'm not sure of the exact figures, but I've heard rumours that BA get £1200 for a Sydney trip, where as we get £440. This is flight pay and allowances all added together. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[stansdead]

strikertworedshoes

No, I don't think so. At the end of the day, I will still be paid when you are on strike. You, however, will not.

So, no, I don't think I have more to lose than you at all.

[scoobydooo]

Standstead, I was thinking more like "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" by Aretha with a vat of mulled wine and mince pies :) Sticking together as a team :ok:

thoroughly looking forward to it, though thanks for your concern

[Captb747]

thoroughly looking forward to it, though thanks for your concern

You are thoroughly looking forward to striking?????? Surely not?????:confused:

[scoobydooo]

capb, would rather have not been forced into it, but if it has to be done I will do it with 110% commitment is what I mean, you are welcome to a mince pie on your way in. :)

[Captb747]

I am glad that has been cleared up as I dont think anyone in their right mind woul dwant to look forward to strike action!!!!! :=

[stansdead]

scoobydoo

You are in a very, very lonely place if you are looking forward to striking. It's an immature viewpoint.

strikertworedshoes

loose my job (sic)... do you mean lose my job?

To add ha ha is so petty and childish that it is staggering. You don't know me, you don't know who I am or what assets or cash I have in the bank. Let me tell you this:

There are plenty of jobs for well qualified and MULTI type rated pilots. Like me. I will get another job even if your petty minded, juvenile, crass and immature attitude were to cost me my job.

Come to think of it, six months off, just spending a little bit of savings would be nice. I could go skiing all winter.:)

[fruitbat]

Do you really believe a strike would ruin the airline?? Get real. If you're not prepared to go that far to get what you want, go back to your life of poor wages and rubbish conditions and stop whinging. Only by being strong will you ever have a chance of getting what you want, but I fear you have already lost and Branson is rubbing his hands with glee at your inability to collectively look after one other...

[TightSlot]

Just a gentle warning please...

We can all appreciate that these are difficult times for ALL Staff at VS - a strike will affect everybody. Under these circumstances, feelings will run high on all sides of the dispute and some people may find their own core beliefs challenged.

Please rise above the temptation to personalize arguments - Play the Ball Not The Player.

[stansdead]

O.K.

After Tight Slot's comments, let's move on.

I hope that all cabin crew in the Unite union use their vote. That way we will know it was a fair fight, no matter who prevails.

I still hope a strike doesn't happen, but there we go. That's my opinion and I stand by it.

I can't wait for this bad feeling to be over.

[scoobydooo]

What are those things you drew reference to ; "savings" ;)


hmmm, it appears my previous response has been "Moderated" as I replied to you stansdead, probably as well as I was drawn into the personal side of things, it just grated me a little that evertime you responded you did so agressively. I think the Mod stepped in at the right time.

For the record strikers " ha ha" , I believe it was said in jest as per the "propoganda" being directed at us that a strike will cripple the company, as fruitbat correctly points out.

[tin tin]

I just want to fly wrote
I'm not sure of the exact figures, but I've heard rumours that BA get £1200 for a Sydney trip, where as we get £440. This is flight pay and allowances all added together. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Actually you get £454.77 in subsistence allowances alone. The actual sum BA crew receive on a similar trip is made up of more than just there subsistence allowance. So you were not comparing apples with apples.
You might want to check the BA figure for their subsistence allowances alone for a better comparison.
When Virgin crew compare themselves against BA crew, they must realise that it took BA crew many many years to get to where they are today, and this was only achieved by taking appropriate bites of the cherry at the appropriate time.
When BA (BEA or BOAC) were at the same age as Virgin is now, their crew were earning about the equivalent wage as virgin crew earn today. But their working practices were far worse. I have parts of a BEA stewardesses contract from 1950 in front of me now. Here is sentence taken from the section concerning on-board etiquette when in the presence of Pilots.
"Stewards/Stewardesses WILL show deference to Pilots"
hmmm

[fruitbat]

Still a bit short of 1200 pounds though!

[vs_lhr]

Management are not going to fold on this, as they know the strikers are the minority of the workforce. If it goes to a Yes to striking, the 4.8% offer will disappear, VS will batten down the hatches in terms of spending and many people will lose their jobs. VS will probably survive, but I doubt they'll want to keep strikers. The law is 12 weeks following the action they can shed those that strike as long as they don't discriminate and they shed all strikers. Given the queue of new recruits (and the fact they haven't stopped recruiting), I don't doubt they are considering that option.

[fruitbat]

It's funny then that your Flight Crew were allowed to look at BA pilots and demand similar amounts....so that 'age of the company' argument only works for CC obviously!

[scoobydooo]

VS will probably survive, but I doubt they'll want to keep strikers. The law is 12 weeks following the action they can shed those that strike as long as they don't discriminate and they shed all strikers. Given the queue of new recruits (and the fact they haven't stopped recruiting), I don't doubt they are considering that option.

That law isn't that simple VS LHR it actually is

The dismissal of any striking employee during the first 12 weeks of lawfully organised official strike action will be deemed unfair. If, as an employer, you lock out your workforce during this protected period, the lock out days are ignored when calculating the 12 week period. However, you can dismiss an employee after the 12 week period if you can show you have made genuine attempts to negotiate. This must include the proper use of any joint disputes resolution procedure.

So if the company fails to negotiate once industrial action is underway any dismissal after 12 weeks of an employee taking part in industrial action would be deemed to be unfair dismissal and said individual could sue for unfair dismissal. So it;s not as simple as after 12 weeks get rid of those carrying out Industrial action.

more information can be found using google which nets sites such as this http://www.safeworkers.co.uk/OnStrike.html (http://www.safeworkers.co.uk/OnStrike.html)

I am still unsure as to the timing as I have read action must take place within 4 weeks of the ballot giving employer 7 days notice , however I can not find clarity if this is within 4 weeks of initial ballot date or initial ballot result, I think it's close though.

[tin tin]

It is quite clear that Virgin Atlantic will be able work through any industrial action the Cabin Crew take, due to the small percentage of crew actually willing to take part in the process so far.

Yes there might be disruption.
Yes there might be financial strain put on the company and employees alike.
But this round of action is doomed to fail and therefore cannot achieve what the cabin crew ultimately deserve.

Virgin Cabin Crew are currently so divided, so disorganized and some so utterly unaware of the facts surrounding this dispute, their aims are now unachievable.

By voting yes to a strike, they will simply destroy all chance of achieving better terms and conditions for a very long time. There is simply not enough crew making the effort to make this a successful fight.

Your right to union recognition took a long time to get. Therefore you should protect it and use it wisely. DO NOT WASTE THIS PRIVALIGE with a strike that does not have enough crew behind it to make it work.

[vs_lhr]

Scooby, I fear the wording of the legislation is such that Virgin Atlantic could arguably claim that they have been negotiating since April and have failed to reach a resolution with those employees who found it necessary to strike.

Strikers are technically in breach of contract, so as long as they follow the 12 week rule, there seems little to stop them showing the door to them just as soon as they can (and if you can feel the temperature of the feelings in The Office, I wouldn't be at all surprised).

[scoobydooo]

VS LHR, you may be correct we shall just have to leave that one to the legal eagles. Everyone assumes its a small minority prepared to strike, ask a crew member in confidence and many are, ask them infront of others they say they are not. No one wants to be seen to be a bad egg, only the ballot will show all. I do think that everyone assuming its a small minority may be surprised, similar to the last vote which everyone thought would be a YES.

[scoobydooo]

Further info re 12 weeks


After 12 weeks of action, you have the right to claim unfair dismissal if:

your employer hasn't taken reasonable steps to settle the dispute; or
you stopped taking part in the industrial action during the 12 week period and are dismissed for taking part during that period
If the action is official but unsupported by a ballot or unprotected (for example, because the action is secondary) you can only claim unfair dismissal if you are dismissed and others taking part are not.


so I could interpret that as it' okay to take part in industrial action up to just short of 12 weeks, if you do not take part in action post that and are dismissed, it is deemed to be unfair. Again open to legal interpretation but that (source directgov) sates that if after 12 weeks the employer hasn't taken reasonable steps to settle the dispute, implying negotiations after industrial action have started. Either way I'm sure all the appropriate information will be sent with the ballot forms.

The only other reference I can find on workers rights which says it differently is

In some cases, it will be automatically unfair to dismiss an employee who continues to take industrial action after the end of the eight-week period where the employer has failed to take reasonable steps to resolve the dispute.

Again one for the legal eagles to chew over, seeing as Unite organise so many I'm sure they are aware of it and will make us aware of it, and so long as everyone has the facts to hand when they get the ballot form.

These are just my personal interpretations on the interpretation of the rules and I am not qualified to offer legal advice on such issues but I'm sure the CAB are, I will ask them tomorrow:)

[alfamatt]

Having been through the build up & sabre rattling of an imminent strike with my lot earlier on this year, there are a few things worth bearing in mind.
A strike is legal, as long as the build up to it is carried out within relevant employment laws, eg timescales etc.
I would expect a further round of talks & tweaking of existing offers if a strong yes vote for a strike is mandated. The amount of improvement to any offer may well relate to the % unity of the strike mandate.
It will get very heavy, with rumours of the company doing all sorts of nasty things to strikers. This seems to be already creeping into this thread, & will snowball.
Keeping pilots, engineers & others on-side will get more & more tricky
IMO, they won't suspend strikers, because after any disruption due to action, they will want to get back to a normal service asap, & to do this, they will need a full workforce.
A weak yes vote for a strike will be a tricky scenario.
Be realistic about the strength of the yes-no split, & remember that even after people have voted, a certain % will dither &/or change their mind as the harsh reality of entering industrial action as an individual gets closer.
It ain't pretty, but if you truly believe its worth fighting for......................................................... ....
Matt.

[Fournier Boy]

Indeed, everything said already with regard to dissmissal for taking part in strike action is accurate.

What many seem to forget is that the company can make redundancies sooner than that if it had to to protect the future of the company. If any strike action is truely disruptive and routes are dropped, planes get parked up or returned to leasors, and therefore for each plane that leaves the fleet, so does that aeroplanes worth of crew (I've no idea what that is, but assume its the number of crew at VS divided by the fleet).

Then it doesn't matter whether you are in the union or not. If redundancies come about to keep the company afloat then off you go. Thats not being fired for taking part in a strike, thats being made redundant because the company has lost lots of money - nothing illegal about that. If you are here over a year, you'll get a payout, if less, you don't. Then again, if there is no more company, there won't be a payout no matter how long you've been here.

The 911 downturn and subsequent redundancies is a very recent and real example of this happening.

Its happened before, in fact some of those in our department are here at VS because that exact thing happened to them at BA.

As an aside, worryingly, there seem to be a lot of accusations, and claims if true facts arising on multiple forums (not just this one) that are nothing more than speculation from galley FM. "I've heard this", and "the story is that", and "its rumoured that" are simply not a basis for some of the arguments that have been appearing recently.

I have to echo the opinions of some of the flightdeck here that it might just be time for some people to grow up and think logically before they post. All respect for tightslot stepping in earlier.

[scoobydooo]

Fournier,

Wouldn't disagree with anything you state, Industrial action is something that can effect everyone, that's why it's so powerful and scary too. It is something not to be taken without having thought it through and knowing the risk, however many of us are fed up with VS taking the pi$$ that it is simply a no brainer, and that far outweighs the risks having weighed them all up. In these situations people simply "fight or flight" based on their own individual circumstances, for me it's fight.

For other departments to tell us what they think of the cabin crew striking it is more than likely to be expected that we are "bad people". Whilst I don't agree with fruitbats angle in the reply to your post, I do think that netting >£3.5k per month + allowances plus £1k into a pension (source - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3642832&postcount=111) makes our thought method very different to that of flight crew. It's very easy to jusdge people when you are not in their shoes or feeling the pinch we do when we take home £900-£1200 a month. [Not bitter of your earnings, you deserve every penny and have studied hard to achieve it and are rewarded justly - after your negotiations a few years back to bring you inline with BA]

For me personally I am sick that every month after all the bills have 'just' been paid and nothing is left or one is negative (please dont lecture me on curbing my spending habits, I am very careful and save allowances). The last set of negotiations were concluded with the promise of Christmas backpay, they were offered this time too and it hasn't happened I would say that is a demonstration that crew are getting more and more fed up with the companies attitude towards us.
Whatever the outcome I will accept what is democratically decided and go with the majority. I will regardless though try and get somehow involved with the union in trying to ensure new channels of communication are established with our colleagues in order to come to the table at the next set of negotiations fully armed with a true representation of what the crew want. I will also watch the flight crew negotiations with interest and see what the companies first offer is to flight crew for an RPI increase - yes it's not comparing apples with apples, but it is a demonstration of the respect in which the company holds the employees (and judging by the offers we received, we are held in a very low respect by the management). :(

[Digitalis]

I've read this thread, and listened to arguments on the aircraft and in crewrooms with much interest. I have to say that this is the most disorganised and ill-informed pay negotiation process I have ever seen! the fact that it has come to a ballot on industrial action, after the union has 'Strongly recommended' the deal, seems bizarre to me.

Scooby (and others), it seems to me that much of your argument with the company is based on rumours of other carriers' terms of employment and pay, rather than demonstrated facts. Where is your Union's spreadsheet showing you exactly where you stand in relation to other airlines, with verifiable data about those airlines' terms? I haven't seen or heard of one.

It's certainly true that Virgin's management has treated you guys with less than the respect you deserve, but it doesn't follow that a strike will achieve what you want. For a start, what do you want? Your Union doesn't appear to know! As far as they were concerned, they'd achieved as close as possible to what you told them you wanted as they thought they could - this time. Like the pilots' pay process, they were aware that Rome wasn't built in a day; it takes time and a plan (i.e. several pay deals) to achieve the uplift in pay and conditions that you are looking for. This was to be the first step in a long rosd - the pilots took 5 or 6 years to get from the equivalent of your situation now to a deal that more closely matches their position in the industry, and that was done with all the facts made available to everyone concerned - including the company.

Contrary to popular rumour, Virgin's pilots never threatened to strike. On their Union's recommendation, they rejected a number of company proposals. Once the Union was satisfied that the Company had moved as far as it could in each round of negotiations, the Union recommended the deal and the pilots accepted it - knowing that further improvements would be negotiated next time round. There is still some way to go in this process; it's far from over.

Where is the CC Union strategy now? What have they told you that they expect to achieve if you strike? It seems there is some unformed impression that 'something will happen' to magically improve the deal - but your Union agreed the deal, so there's nowhere left for them to negotiate!

It seems to me you would all be better served by rejecting the strike and taking the current offer, then replacing your Union negotiating team with one that communicates much more effectively with you, and takes your needs and wants more into account when they negotiate - and works to a long-term plan to achieve them. That kind of professional approach will result in more respect from the company, as well as being more likely to get you what you want.

This situation now is a mess, with no clear path to a resolution. You are poorly served with information and guidance, and you are heading, more or less leaderless, into a fight you almost certainly can't win. Back off now and regroup, with a better leadership and a better plan; no, sod it, any kind of a plan!

Good luck. I think you'll need it!

[stansdead]

scoobs

You cannot turn your pay negotiations into a comparison between my pay and your pay.

The two things are simply not linked.

In any organisation there will always be pay differentials. What I posted was a direct comparison of PILOT'S pay in a thread amongst PILOTS, not a comparison between pilot's and cabin crew. So, I think you should not use that source in this instance, but if you feel that you must, then please continue. However, I do not think it strengthens your argument.

There will always be a law of supply and demand and a law of pay vs responsibilities. The fact that pilot's get paid more than crew is a direct reflection of our scarcity value as potential employees vs our cost of training.

Sadly, the fact is this: Pilots cost a lot to train, so airlines pay us well to retain our services. We are NOT that easily replaced. It takes 6 months from interviewing someone, offering them a job until they are checked out on the line.

The same cannot be said for crew. It is nearer 3 months I imagine.

The other reason there will alwys be a big difference in crew vs pilot pay is that we, as pilots, are responsible for a very large chunk of company money in the form of a large jet aircraft. Our responsibilities are totally different to yours and hence the difference in pay.

Please reconsider the use of my wages in your argument. It has nothing whatsoever to do with your pay negotiations.:=

[scoobydooo]

Digi

Thanks for the reply, finely worded and rational. I shall attempt to address the points you have raised (from my personal opinion).

Regarding not following the unions recommendation to accept and then a strong recommendation to accept. Indeed from this statement alone looking in I would agree with you. Just looking however at the percentages which rejected these recommendations shows that communication needs to be improved in what the crew want and what the union believes the crew want (I will come back to this)

Arguments based on rumours and not facts. I have colleagues who have left us to work at BA and or other carriers and I have been through the terms with a fine toothcomb (with the thought of leaving). I dont like to wander in the dark and like to have a semi educated knowledge what I am talking about, so when I draw reference to delay payments/cap payments, duty payment, crew down etc etc it is all said comparing our terms with the known terms of other carriers.

Para 3, yes BALPA does appear to be far more organised, no weak links, we either have weak links between the crew not telling the reps what we want, or the reps not telling the next layer of representation, or the next or the next. Chinese whispers springs to mind.

Regarding - It seems there is some unformed impression that 'something will happen' to magically improve the deal - but your Union agreed the deal, so there's nowhere left for them to negotiate!

We will have to agree to disagree on this one, the company would be best served to avoid industrial action , if this means a subsequent offer then so be it, look how close the last vote was, in my eyes all the company has to do is modify the current offer to remove the extra month of standby, I believe that would possibly get the offer through, fixing year 2 increase (not just =RPI) would I believe almost certainly carry it through. Neither of those are an expensive exercise. I have communicated my personal requirements direct to Mr Boyd via email as I believe the channel in place are not sufficient.

Replacing the negotiation team (or the weak links not collecting or feeding back crew wishes) I totally agree. I believe as part of the T&G and Unite merger due to complete in 2008 this will be part of the process. I know I for one will be writing to T&G cc'ing Unite asking that the entire virgin negotiating structure is overhauled such that clear channel of communication can be established direct with the union (not via the company) without this in place things will be in a mess next time round also, however I do believe this will happen as part of the merger.

So with my belief that the union strategy and leadership will be different next time around due to the merger of unions I could also believe this is the last time the current negotiation team will be negotiating for us, i.e. we are moving on to bigger and better and stronger union - what would be achieved by backing down ?

If I thought things would stay like this for good - current union, current negotiating team then I would be inclined to agree with you regarding falling back regrouping and moving forward at a later date.

[scoobydooo]

Dear Stansdead,

As stated by myself in the post you refer to I fully acknowledge the flight crew are worth every penny they are paid.

The use of your historical post was merely to demonstrate that whilst you are fully prepared to tell us how "various phrases used wont repeat them" we are for being prepared to take part in the last resort of industrial action in an attempt to improve our terms, my(our) remuneration yours are very different and telling us to accept and move on is easily said from the side lines.

No offence intended :ok:

Well...Anyway cant spend all my leave on here debating, I wish you all a good day, Think I shall go and take in some winter air down on the beach, I may take my harmonica so I can busk to pay for a bacon roll :p

[Digitalis]

Scooby, thanks for your reply. I accept that it's your personal opinion. Therein lies much of the problem! For example, for you (and no doubt for many others), one of the major stcking points is the revision to the standby procedure. However, that's not universally a problem, as far as I can tell. Others have other objections, but no-one seems to be collating these opinions - and obviously didn't do so effectively before the last vote. The problem now is that no-one really knows what the strike, if it happens, is actually in response to, and what is needed to resolve the issues that you collectively have. For example, it may well be that a change to the standby arrangements would seal the deal for you personally - but for how many others? It seems to me that a strike won't address the fundamental problems that you face because your Union doesn't seem to be aware of what you want. Or, if they are, they're not telling you what the majority opinions are amongst your colleagues. That's no way to run a campaign!

As I see it, both the Union and the Company should take a step back and admit that their negotiations have been flawed and need to be re-started. As a gesture of good faith, the Company should honour the pay elements of the agreed settlement without imposing any changes to working practices, on the understanding that negotiated working practice changes will occur subject to Union ratification. The Union, for its part, should then rapidly and comprehensively canvas your opinions of working practice changes, and then go back to the company confident that it knows what you want, what you will tolerate, and what you object to. A deal can hopefully then be struck that makes the best compromise between the Company's needs and the CC's needs, and also makes it clear which direction future negotiations will take and what the eventual aim is for CC pay and conditions.

It shouldn't be up to you to ask your mates in BA or wherever what their pay is; the Union should be able to provide you with that information in a way which makes it unarguable. I understand they said that was impossible due to Data Protection provisions; that's rubbish, and you should tell them so!

I hope that the transition from Unite to the T&G will improve your negotiating power, but the majority of your negotiating strength comes from the abilities of the team in place and its leadership. It wasn't BALPA that did so well for the pilots, it was a certain (then) First officer and a team of excellent, resourceful, clear-headed individuals. BALPA gave them the backing of their negotiating experts, but the real stuff came from those guys. I hope you manage to find a team of equal quality who can do it for you.

[scoobydooo]

Digi

I agree with your proposals 100% :D Now all we need ithe people upstairs to listen.

[BY_boy]

Ballot paper came this morn, its a NO vote from me. There is too much at risk to lose

[r.s]

Ballot paper came this morn, its a NO vote from me. There is too much at risk to lose


BY Boy, can I ask what it is you think you may lose?

[virgin mary]

After lots of thought I have been convinced that I have to vote NO on this. There have been some very informed, wise and honest posts in the last few pages, thankyou to those who have taken the time to do so. Lets all move on, do the job we love and get ourselves better organised for next time.

[scoobydooo]

Hey

I' m back, nice day at the beach, bit windy. Virgin Mary - cool name where did you pop up from, funny how new posters appear same day as union info or ballots come out :E

[Kasual Observer]

If I may be permitted another observation... the ballot papers should have started arriving today and the results will be known on the 20th December. It would seem that quite a few of the people making comments on here are under the false assumption that they may actually be on strike over Christmas. Also, it would appear from those who are under that impression, that that is the only reason to vote for a strike as they will then be able to have the holiday off.

I'm sure many of you don't think that way. However, judging from the latest galley FM, the vast majority of you have no idea what it is exactly you are going to be striking over. As has so eloquently been pointed out already by Digitalis, no one has been able, so far, to explain exactly what is going to happen if you actually vote for industrial action.

I must say that the communications from your union leaders has been dismal. Judging by the comments made here, not one of you knows exactly what this is all about. You are talking of voting for industrial action without having any idea of what that actually entails. Considering that your union leader, Brian Boyd, twice "strongly recommended" the offer and you twice had a vote of no confidence in him by rejecting it, I cannot understand how you can now be so confident that you are somehow in a position of strength when in fact, you are in disarray and, as pointed out above, have very little idea of what is actually going to happen whether you get a yes or a no vote with only a marginal majority.

If I could just remind everyone on here what was actually communicated by Brian Boyd. On 26th September just after the 3rd ballot he wrote "...I, along with your pay reps, have met the Company on two occasions. These meetings have culminated in a revised offer and to a position where I truly believe that Unite is able to "strongly recommend" acceptance. I do sincerely hope that after reading the enclosed Company offer, you support my "strong recommendation" for acceptance."

Then, on the 5th October after the 4th ballot, Boyd wrote "Unite has now undertaken a thorough consultation period where we have been available to speak to our members at various locations. You have been given the opportunity to consider the Company's revised offer, and discuss any aspect of it with Unite Officers and Workplace Reps. I do believe that this "Final Offer" represents the best we could hope to negotiate under the current circumstances. It is the highest single percentage wage increase across all UK airline companies in 2007. The guiding principle of Unite is to continually pursue the very best improvements to our members terms and conditions of employment wherever they work, while retaining a realistic approach to what can be achieved. I am of the opinion that we have maintained this principle throughout these negotiations. I am therefore "recommending acceptance" of the offer."

Following the rejection of the 4th ballot, Brian Boyd, was directly quoted as saying "Unite is calling upon Virgin Atlantic to deliver a long term solution to this problem. It has gone on for too long and our members have had enough. Unite has written to the company today to inform them that the union will ballot its members for strike action within the next two weeks."

That was on the 2nd November and two weeks later the company had still not heard from him about any ballot on industrial action. It was only on the 26th of November that official notification of intention to ballot was made. The closing date for ballots to be received is 20th December.

So, some of you on here are telling us that you are confident of achieving your aims whilst being led into industrial action by a leadership that you have no confidence in. I shake my head in despair at the naivety of your actions. I do agree that you need to improve your terms and conditions but, as has already been stated, you need to do so progressively and sensibly. This way is more likely to do long term harm to your ambitions and is likely to put you back several years in industrial relations terms with the company.

I repeat my advice, for what it is worth, that you should take the current offer which is "highest single percentage wage increase across all UK airline companies in 2007" and then regroup. Get yourselves someone who an represent your interests properly. You will have about 18 months which, in all honesty, probably isn't enough time to organise properly and enter negotiations from a stronger position.

All the gung-ho comments from the pro strike commentators on here will not change the outcome of a poorly represented union with very limited, minority support from your membership, going head to head with the company. The resulting defeat, and it will end in tears for the cabin crew, will shred your organisation to pieces. Far better to accept the current offer and live to fight another day.

I just hope that the majority of the cabin crew use their vote and cast it with the knowledge of what the consequences will be, either way. It has already been shown that the apathy of the majority allows the voiciferous minority to lead you into uncharted waters with roughly 29% rejecting the last offer and the rest not voicing an opinion. Think hard and use common sense.

Good luck, because you are going to need it.

[virgin mary]

:OI wish I/we had known about this site a long time ago!! It would have saved a lot of worrying and probably silenced most of the galley FM rumours and rubbish.

[scoobydooo]

highest single percentage wage increase across all UK airline companies in 2007"

But it comes with sacrifice. Givee left, takee right.

You have put some considerable time into that post KO, nice piece once again. I think the union can be excused for the delay in notification to the company, based on 2 counts,

1. legally the company has to ensure it has ALL members correct details before the ballot is issued otherwise the company can claim the ballot is not legal. (see legal rules of an industrial ballot)

2. It could be possible the delay was strategically, as a yes vote for industrial action has to be taken within 4 weeks, so optimum timing may have been a factor.

I too hope everyone exercises their vote this time and with a level head, there has been some good dialogue here of late, sometimes it's good to take a step back and re-asses to ensure you are on the correct course even if that means taking a few steps back.

I wish everyone well.:ok:

[Digitalis]

Virgin Mary and Scooby, print out those posts you think are helpful in the discussions i hope you will have on the aircraft, and in downroute bars and room parties (I hope they still happen!), and let your colleagues read them. If it helps people understand what they're getting into, and prompts some thought about what to do next, then it will have been a worthwhile exercise.

Once again, all the very best of luck.

[BY_boy]

When I say too much to lose, I mean I don't want to lose my job and I certainly don't want others too.

Regardless of what everyone says it comes down to an individuals circumstances and I will be better off under the 4.8% deal. I don't live at home and I am going to make a career out of being at Virgin.

As many of people have said before we are not united enough to see this fight through to the end. People may vote for strike action, but how many will be outside The Office or Queens on the picket line? very few I feel.

Take this deal and we can prepare ourselves for the next round of talks. If the ballot comes back as a 'yes' then I shall certainly be going into work and no I am not management.

The damage has already started, lets not make this any worse. I no everything isn't perfect at VS with crew down, IFE etc etc etc and as Steve Ridgeway said some crew think a strike is going to fix these issues, but it wont.

Everyone just think long and hard about your vote!

[vs_lhr]

@ Scooby,

It seems to be a common reaction that everyone who posts on here (and doesn't agree 100% with the pro-strike position) is treated with suspicion. A little unfair, don't you think? The number of crew register here is only going to be a tiny minority of the total workforce, so when something as important as this gives new blood a reason to post their opinion, we should respect it rather than attempt to slyly undermine anyone who's not completely on our side.

I prefer a balanced argument ;)

[scoobydooo]

Vs_Lhr

I hear what your are saying, I guess once bitten twice shy, I am more than well aware that management read and contribute to these discussions and have received numerous personal messages suggesting I be careful due to that reason, so it is the cynic in me.

It's not everyone though, when you look back at the people who have popped up and it is their first post and first time contributing to this thread they are usually on the day of a ballot or ballot result all pro company.

I for example will not judge or have a pop at BY_BOY he/she has a high post count is obviously an established poster and from reading his/her historical posts once can see when they joined where they have come from etc etc it is his vote and he/she has made a decision and I respect that.

I am just dubious of the unknown and new posters with zero post count suddenly gettign involved with the debate make me ponder.... Twilight zone music :bored::ok:

[virgin mary]

:ONo need to be dubious,:O its just that from this morning things became more real than ever!! I did not have a clue which way to vote. I needed to get more info and just googled "crew internet forum", read this site all morning, found it very interesting in some places boring in others and just chidish in some:=(needed a little help from a flight deck friend at first but soon got the hang of it) I now cant waite to start getting stuck into some flight deck debates:ok:

[vs_lhr]

Virgin Mary,

I can also recommend cabincrew.com and v-flyer.com (for a passenger opinion). There are many different views out there - read them all and take what you will from them; but ultimately it should be your decision alone which way to vote.

[virgin mary]

I can also recommend cabincrew.com and v-flyer.com

I should have been clearer... I need quality info from people with brains.


Why isn't verbal as good as this site?

[scoobydooo]

Mary

Dont be too quick to judge cc.com, often it is the first sign of things changing, i.e. it can be a bit of galley FM but also often it is the first source of changes afoot, no smoke without fire etc. The latest rumour is on the subject of our allowances not spent down route and brought home becoming taxable :GULP: :yuk:

[Tags]

Evening/Morning all,

I won't post at length due to the hour and intake of one too many beverages (on leave before the red tops get excited)!

Whilst on the train tonight I read an article in the "Log" - a BALPA publication.
It carried a frank (and brutal in parts) article written by the BMI Company Council chairman (for pilots) on the whole strike process. It was a sobering read. What became very obvious is the disarray UNITE currently finds itself in. One of the main points voiced was that you should only strike if you are confident of winning!

If I'm able, I'll try and download the article from BALPA and reproduce pertinent parts of it (with the author’s permission).

My wife is crew with Virgin, so I have read all her (or indeed lack of) UNION correspondence. You terms and conditions do fall short of what you are due. Having worked in the airlines for 20 years, for several companies, if I thought she was in a position to win this one I'd say so here. Sadly that is not the case. One of the translations of "Union" as per the OED, translates as "the fact of uniting, or the fact of being united" sadly that doesn't tie in with the position you now find yourselves in.

Scooby, if you were a betting man/woman, how many of your colleagues do you honestly think will be stood next to you on that picket line? Forget the "I'll be there" crowd; they'll be the same bunch - plus some, that don't turn up for organised events downroute! Actions speak louder than words!
Scooby, you are obviously a lucid, well educated individual. I think you need to re-evaluate if you think you can win this one, and come out of it in a respected position to be able to go in to a negotiation next time round - if not why not?

[vs69]

Interesting to see the ever increasing opinion that few who are prepared to strike will be prepared to stand on the picket line (especially if this mornings weather is anything to go by),I'd be interested to see how many were out in force should a strike go ahead. Also what still worries me is the number of comments referring to crew who just do not realise the gravity of the whole situation and as mentioned a few posts back,there will have to be a bit of give and take,though this doesnt seem to be the feeling amongst some,who expect more money for no change to working conditions,it just aint going to happen is it?
Certain posters taunting non cabin crew about what they (non crew) have to lose is just not on and only serves to increase the 'tarring with the same brush' effect,at the same time its refreshing to hear views that are grounded (no pun intended) and realistic about the situation and show consideration for other areas of the company,certainly restores my faith!
Personally,I have heaps of respect for the job you chaps do,I'd rather unblock a bog than deal with angry punters for 8 hrs upwards and can understand why there is bad feeling towards management when you look at some of the spending decisions lately yet we are all being told to work harder,save more when money is poured into projects like VK that economically just dont make sense in the current climate.However a strike will only make things worse,without wanting to mention the R word.....Apologies for any repetition in this post and I'm hoping it comes across as balanced,best of luck guys.

[Kasual Observer]

Scooby, as has been pointed out, you do seem to be quite intelligent and able to express your thoughts quite sensibly. However, your naivety about the consequences of industrial action and continual need to defend every argument put forward against taking industrial action shows quite clearly that you still have a lot to learn.

As an example, in post #82 you say: "For me personally I am sick that every month after all the bills have 'just' been paid and nothing is left or one is negative (please dont lecture me on curbing my spending habits, I am very careful and save allowances" and in post #103 you say: "The latest rumour is on the subject of our allowances not spent down route and brought home becoming taxable"

It is precisely that kind of naivety that is going to be your downfall if you continue to recommend voting for industrial action without knowing in as much detail as possible what the consequences are. If you did not have the intelligence to comprehend that the taxman will want his share of ANY money you earn or bring back into this country, then as in all cases, ignorance of the law is no excuse when you are in court.

The repeated claims on this thread and others from cabin crew who harp on about saving their allowances and bring them back to the UK is all the ammunition the tax man needs. The fact that your pathetic union have not already informed you of HMC&E's intentions to tax your allowances is yet one more example of why you should seriously consider the consequences of taking industrial action when you have a leadership that is not only ineffectual but quite obviously out of the loop when it comes to passing on advice.

The taxman (HMC&E) is already looking very closely at what the crew are doing with their allowances. If you had a proper union worth their dues you would have been informed of this fact and adjusted your spending accordingly. Instead you and others have already admitted to bringing as much of your allowances home with you. It is not "galley FM". It is a harsh reality that you are going to be clobbered on your allowances and that is not the company's fault.

So, all those who are advocating for industrial action when you are in disarray, unorganised and without the stomach for a fight apart from a few naive militants, should wake up, smell the coffee and take a bit of free advice from those of us who do have a very good union and have managed to improve our terms and conditions. We didn't do it in one go and we made sure that we had ALL the information to hand before accepting the advice of our reps.

We advise you to take the offer you have now and regroup. It will take a lot of dedication from whoever decides to take on the role of reps and it will also require a lot of support and advice from your union. You may not be ready in 18 months, in which case you push just that bit harder and wait until you are ready. Eventually you will improve your T's & C's and you will look back and reminisce about "the old days". Vote for a strike now and you put yourselves back 10 years or more.

Your vote, your choice.

[Vintersted]

Having just registered, this is my first post on Pprune although I have been visiting this website on and off for many years.
I've never posted as I just prefer to read and enjoy the many points of view of all concerned.
I have finally decided to take the step as like so many, I am frustrated with what is going on around us at Virgin.
Like 3000+ others, I have just received my ballot for industrial action. As we all know, it really is a big decision to make. I have been at Virgin for over 16years and have always believed we should have a voice, it's a slightly croaky one at the moment, but nevertheless a voice.
I fully believe that work needs to be done on perfecting that voice before we try to use it effectively. This is why I fully agree with Kasual Observers last paragraph, post #106:

We advise you to take the offer you have now and regroup. It will take a lot of dedication from whoever decides to take on the role of reps and it will also require a lot of support and advice from your union. You may not be ready in 18 months, in which case you push just that bit harder and wait until you are ready. Eventually you will improve your T's & C's and you will look back and reminisce about "the old days". Vote for a strike now and you put yourselves back 10 years or more.


That's probably the best piece of advice I have read hence my registration and reply...

ted

[stansdead]

striker

Where, if it is not "galleyFM" did the rumour/fact of a bigger, better paydeal come from then?

I am not trying to be confrontational, but all evidence points to the contrary.

3 Senior managers have all reiterated the complete opposite, to all of us, in the last week.

As far as our (pilot) pay talks go, to the best of my knowledge, they have not yet begun. Additionally, I believe that we as a Pilot body are not interested in pay alone. Like I said to scoobydoo a day or two ago, our pay and your pay are NOT linked.

I respect your right to express your dissatisfaction in the vote, but I am firmly in the belief that this offer is your best one for this battle.

You seem to be combative, keen and "on the ball". Why don't you get stuck in as a cabin crew union rep. You may be able to legitimately make the difference that you so keenly wish for.

Anyhow, back to the point in hand. Was it a reliable source? Would you share it publicly?

[Digitalis]

Striker, unless you can attribute your statement to an identifiable individual, and show us all where such a statement may be read by all Virgin CC, your statement is no more nor less than a rumour - hearsay, if you will - and is of no use to people trying to make their minds up what to do in a difficult situation. It is just the same as someon in the galley saying, "Well, I heard from a mate in the office that there's a better offer out there...".

I'm sorry, but unless you quote your source, your statement has no value.

Further, as has already been pointed out, the pilots have spent 6 years getting to where they are now, and the process is not yet done; indeed, it may never be. They will indeed wait 18 months, or more, if necessary. Patient, well-informed negotiating, in full consultation with the 'coal-face', has achieved a great deal, and will achieve more yet. I very much hope that the next iteration of the CC negotiating team learns that lesson.

[exvicar]

Who is 'the horses mouth'? Are you seriously telling me someone in the management has told you that there is a better deal on the table but to get it you have to vote to strike? Somehow I doubt it. If there was a better deal on the table they would offer it during the negotiations and avoid the hassle of the ballot and all of the negative publicity attached to the strike. Unfortunately, unless it is a comprehensive no vote and there are enough you actually on strike to affect the operation, the company will simply run the schedule around you. Many in the union will then say 'what did the union do for us? It costs us money each month and they didn't perform'. They will then resign their membership and you will lose your bargaining power for the future. You have done well to get your membership up and strength in part comes from unity. However, unfortunately, so few of you could actually be bothered to return the ballot in your pay negotiations in the first place and, at the moment, united you are not. Take the deal, organise yourselves for the next round in 18 months, educate those with the power to vote to do so and come back even stronger next time. Many in the flight deck community are on your side. I, for one, would hate to see your membership fall to bits just as you are beginning to get organised.

[Litebulbs]

Digitalis

"Patient, well-informed negotiating, in full consultation with the 'coal-face', has achieved a great deal, and will achieve more yet"

How can you achieve more, when their is just no more money in the pot? Hopefully the pilot community will realise this and not make a claim next year, for the good of Virgin and all the staff.

[fruitbat]

When are people going to stop believing this 'no more money in the pot' argument?! It's not a public company, they can tell you they only make £20 million profit, but the true figure could be 10 times that. Branson has one of the most complicated Offshore company accounts of any individual on Earth.

[scoobydooo]

Evening all,


Just a quick one...


KO Appreciate the reply however I do feel that you have gone off a little on a tangent regarding my example of info on cc.com. I was merely repeating the latest rumour, the thread over there goes on to further talk about if it is demonstrated to the tax man that crew are bringing allowances home (as I and many do to supplement our poor basic).

The knock on of that could then be "ah, so the crew don't need all the allowances we provide them for subsidence down route, as proved by company allowance tax records 08/09 (on diners cards if it goes ahead) so we can justify cutting allowances". This is an extreme example (but who knows these days companies are going to extrodinary lenghts to cust costs, crew rest areas out , oh no back in again etc etc) , and my post was made to suggest the Virgin Mary should not discount everything that is posted on that site in its entirety.

Often I read changes on there before they hit i-fly. I am fully aware of HMC&E rules regarding bringing monies into the UK or declaring monies earned and vrought into the UK or even just interest earnt from overseas holdings if one is a UK tax resident.

Again this is one reason why our Allowances require a radical overhaul to bring us inline with other carriers, 1 because it will happen anyway and 2 better if we instigate the change through the unions rather than the company instigating them in on a "on the back foot" fashion due to demands from HMR&E.


I appreciate all comments however after taking all sources on information available and my personal reasons I have now mailed my response back (judge me if you like) but as has been mentioned somewhere back in the past 88 posts I have my reasons and goals and they have not been achieved, also I believe the format of further cabin crew negotiations from next time round will be different due to the mess this time and the merger of the unions.

Regarding posting replies to posts pro industrial action, as VS-LHR mentioned last night "a balanced argument/debate" is required, many posts here are against Industrial action so I am trying to keep it balanced. Many posters pro action have stopped posting following the message from the roo a few weeks back about using external sites to discuss the issues, they have stopped posting for fear of getting in trouble following pro action postings as many people can be identified easily through historical postings on here and cc.com (Again I have received numerous pm's regarding this).


We must also accept again that sites like this can be used as propaganda tools for both sides (conspiracy theorist in me again).


Anyway last post on the subject from me now till result is known as I feel we are going round and round in circles now. My vote is cast and whatever the outcome I will go with the majority, that is what freedom and democracy is all about.

As for weather and picket lines, as someone said many posts ago, If Carlsberg did picket Lines - Virgins one would "Probably the best looking picket line in the world".


Safe festive seasonal flying everyone.:ok:

p.s. - Hey, it didn't turn out to be a quick one liner as expected (why does that always happen on prune ?)

[Litebulbs]

Twas joking about the magic empty pot of money.

[Digitalis]

Litebulbs the pilots' negotiations will be about far more than simply money. It's unlikely they will be looking for anything significantly above RPI, but there are several lifestyle issues that will be addressed.

Litebulbs and Fruitbat. Virgin Atlantic made £6m profit in the last financial year, at a time when BA was making record profits, as were Qantas, Singapore, KLM/Air France and several other longhaul airlines. When Virgin Atlantic made 11% Return on Sales (RoS), the airline was first to shout it from the rooftops. There is absolutely no evidence that profit from this company is being squirrelled off to other Virgin enterprises other than the legitimate, if unfortunate, example of Virgin Nigeria. You may believe the accounts of this company are secret, and unavailable to the public or the regulators. You are quite wrong. However, you do have to pay to see the accounts - something I very much hope your Union has done.

If they have, they will be well aware that the losses at Virgin Nigeria have hurt this company's profitability very hard, and that that is the primary reason for VS's poor results. The secondary, and entirely legitamate and credible, reason is that the company has invested a great deal in expansion over the last few years, and that investment is yet to yield a positive return. I'm sure we all very much hope it will yield that return in the near future, but the economic signs for the industry generally are not good, so it may well take longer than was anticipated.

Once again, suggestions that there is money secreted away, or that VS is a lot more profitable than the results suggest (it would be without VK!), are fantasy and not borne out by any verifiable information. In other words, more rumour. You can't spend rumours.

Of course, if you have documented evidence of Virgin's secret profits, kindly share it with the rest of us - then we can all go after our share of it!

[Qstar]

Good Luck VS Cabin Crew..... Pay for flight attendants in this country is appalling. Even at Qantas UK many crew all say the same thing, living in London and costs at the end of the month, nothing left. Look at BA and what happened with their strike action, how quickly they listen. This is a profession that needs not go back to the hostess era!! CONDITIONS & PAY!!!!! GOOD LUCK!!:ok:

[Litebulbs]

Digitalis

So there have been some terrible business decisions then? Clear out the accountable managers. They are the people who have put Virgin in this position. The UK market needs a Virgin, it is a great product and is well established. Blue Chip, Chalk Stripe Neo Cons fly BA. Pop Stars and pretty people fly Virgin. There is a massive market for both types of passengers.

If you want to stop this action without increasing the offer, then the board and senior management must go. You want to get the crew back onside, then get rid of the very people who have put Virgin in the position that they pay the majority of there employees a rate at the lower end of the UK airline salary scale and still turn in a terrible result.

The comments about realising that Virgin just cant afford it would have more credibility if you got rid of the very people that caused it!

[Digitalis]

Sacking certain managers - much as I'd like to - doesn't put money in the bank now, when you need it. Going on strike won't generate money that isn't there. You have to deal with things as they are, not how you'd like them to be. Part of the process of getting what you want is recognising the realities around you and working within the limitations that exist. You can't turn a poor economic situation into a good one by claiming that there's money hidden away somewhere; show us that money and we can all lay a claim to a share of it. If you (or the Union) can't show it to us, we have to work on the assumption that it's not there, as all the economic data leads rational observers to believe.

I understand your feelings, but you can't fix the problems by telling people there's money lying around when there plainly isn't. Take what's on offer, then spend the time before the next pay negotiations (which will start in about a year's time) obtain ing the data to inform your standpoint, instead of relying on rumour and conjecture. Knowledge is power, and you and your Union plainly don't have it.

[Litebulbs]

Through previous good times and bad, crew pay has remained low. My point is if you want to get crew back on side, something, if not pay, has to happen. Make the people who are accountable, accountable.

It will be vastly more damaging for VS crew as a union, to capitulate now. Negotiation is about compromise. It all rests on the 20th Dec on what action both sides will take. If a strike is the outcome, negotiations will continue and probably lead to 4.8% with reduced strings.

We wait and see.

[In The Pink]

Digitalis

"You have to deal with things as they are"

Its because this airline is so poorly managed that we are in the financial situation that we are. Blaming already poorly paid CC for threatening the future of the airline is just another symptom of a management that blames fuel prices, open skies, the environment, declining yields etc.. every excuse in the book yet refuses to look at itself.

All factors that every other airline has to face daily, factors which our main competitor are dealing with admirably whilst at the same time increasing frequencies, expanding its fleet and putting 350 million into a new terminal

It hasn't been bad for airlines the last few years and Virgin are still under performing. I cant wait another 18 months, the management have had long enough to sort this out and I worry how its going to be in 18 months time given we are now moving into what looks like a period of economic regression (if not recession).

All crew want is an RPI increase to reflect how much more life costs each year. Surely that's not too much for a billion dollar organisation!!??

This is an interesting article from The Times on our CEO, interesting reading..

"ttp://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/movers_and_shakers/article2681627.ece (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/movers_and_shakers/article2681627.ece)

"But we're Virgin", heads up ar*e's is the only management I see these days.
.

[stansdead]

In the Pink

Quote : "All crew want is an RPI increase to reflect how much more life costs each year. Surely that's not too much for a billion dollar organisation!!??"

I am not sure, but I thought that 4.8% was way,way above the current RPI.

And you have been offered RPI increase in April 2008 as well.

Surely, by this measure, the deal looks OK?

Let me know if my maths is wrong, or if you have just shot yourself in the foot inadvertently.:uhoh:

[scoobydooo]

Just a quickie regarding pots of money we have or haven't got. No one knows, the story so far....


Employer - We have no more money to offer, final offer
Employees Union - There is more money to be had, vote rejected.
Employer - Here is our next offer this one is final as we really have no more money.
Employees Union - Sorry not good enough, vote rejected.
Employer - okay here is another offer, very last one, as we really really have no more money.
Employees Union - Vote rejected, Industrial Ballot


It is clear to see why some people may not believe the company when they say they have no more to offer. If I was management I would say that too if I didn't want to pay anymore. The simple truth is none of us REALLY know, however if one was to look at the story so far one might not believe the company saying there is no more (cry wolf )

I'm not advocating anything just, the above is as simple as it gets when we come to the story so far and pots of money that may or may not exist.


Scooby (not really posting, your'e just imagining it):cool:

[back2front]

An RPI increase is all very well (and one I would accept) if our salary already reflected that of our collegues at other airlines.

4.8% of very little = a very small increase so until we achieve a salary somewhere closer to other airline crew I will be voting NO to pay deals and YES to strike action.

[Digitalis]

ITP, I can't argue that some of our management are incompetent; there you are absolutely correct! Nevertheless, that doesn't alter the fact that a strike - should a vote go that way - is extremely unlikely to significantly improve the offer available to you, and is highly likely to damage the airline at a time when its finances just aren't that good.

As I've implied in posts above, patience is fundamental in securing a good result for your colleagues. Unite haven't had much time (and have squandered much of what time they've had) to build a plan to improve your pay and conditions, and a consensus for implementing it. Between the Company and the Union, the negotiations thus far have been pretty inept. Nevertheless, as Stan says, the deal you have on the table involves an uplift well above RPI right now (with backpay), and a further uplift of RPI for 2008. Yes, there are some strings attached, but negotiations always have to involve some compromises.

You now have the opportunity to take what's been offered, and then take stock and focus your efforts for the next round - which will begin fairly shortly, as this one's gone on so long. Or you can reject it for the uncertainty of a strike, with whatever effects that may have on your employment prospects. I have to say I don't feel those effects will be positive!

[scoobydooo]

Furthermore there must be something in the air at the Unite Office this December, I wasnt aware that the BAA strike ballot also closes on December 20th... I wonder if there is a cunning plan Baldrick.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2933898.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/dec/02/unitegroup.businessandmedia?gusrc=rss&feed=business

[In The Pink]

Stan

UK RPI for this year so far is 4.3% so the company's offer for this year is 11.6% above RPI. Whether that's way,way,way above RPI is for the individual to decide.

The fact is when I take into account the sacrifices in terms and conditions being asked to achieve this offer, extra months standby, loss of guaranteed weekends off on standby, insufficient trip pay for seniors etc,etc,etc, this for me personally takes the increase below RPI.

If I didn't make it clear earlier an unconditional RPI increase is what I need.

Crew have to make that individual decision for themselves and we'll know what that decision is shortly.

Will you accept an extra months standby next year for an RPI increase?

Digitalis, you post makes perfect sense if I thought the people at the helm had the talent to steer us into safer waters, however I don't believe that to be the case. I have no faith in them at all, so I'll be voting YES.

[Digitalis]

Scooby, the BAA strike has been known about for sometime. I would be surprised if your Union did not take it into account.

Digitalis, you post makes perfect sense if I thought the people at the helm had the talent to steer us into safer waters, however I don't believe that to be the case. I have no faith in them at all, so I'll be voting YES.

I'm not sure I understand you here. Do you mean the Company or the Union? If you mean the Company, you are presumably implying that you have doubts about the survivability of the Company at all - in which case, why not jump ship and sign up with someone else? After all, there's no point striking for a payrise from an airline that's going down the tubes!

[In The Pink]

I mean the company.

I have never stated its going down the tubes, I have stated it is under performing big time under the current management in relation to our biggest competitor and will continue to do so until there are changes at the top.

If I thought there was no point in striking I wouldn't be wasting my time posting my reasons on here.

Your take it or leave attitude mirrors the company's, which is why things have progressed to the stage we're at now.

[JB1888]

Dear Colleague,


Industrial Action Ballot


You should now have received your ballot papers. If not you must contact your Workplace Reps or call Dave Kelly at the Unite Slough Office Tel. No. 01753 578439 immediately.


This aside, I thought I should clarify some of the points Virgin Atlantic management have raised on I-Fly in relation to the balloting process. I know that the majority of Unite members are fully aware of the importance of returning a "Yes" vote in the current Industrial Action Ballot. However, the Company has been attempting to destabilise this important process by offering Cabin Crew money to "break the strike". In doing so it is undermining the good work Unite has carried out on behalf of our members since we achieved Trade Union recognition at Virgin Atlantic some 6 years ago.


Our members have continually demonstrated their determination throughout this dispute, which has been absolutely crucial in moving the Company from its original position back in April of expecting Cabin Crew to accept a 2% increase.


You have given Unite a clear mandate to pursue further improvements to those now being offered. We are absolutely committed to this principle, and as such, your continued support is paramount.


I also want to touch on the inferences that individuals may leave themselves open to disciplinary action as a result of participating in "official" strike action. Let me therefore be clear on this. If Unite and our members have done everything that we are required to do under the current legislation, which I believe we have, then all our members have protected rights. Virgin Atlantic is well aware of this fact.


Finally, I know you have been urged on I-Fly to call your Union. This may have been another attempt to undermine our efforts, but I can tell you that both Dave Kelly and I have been happy to speak with any of our members from the outset of the negotiations. Our members do not need prompted to do this.


In the meantime, I will update you in due course on any further developments, and remind you to return your ballot paper by 12 noon on Thursday 20th December 2007.


Yours sincerely,

Brian Boyd
National Officer

[Digitalis]

ITP, I agree that there need to be changes at the top of the Company, but I can't link your prospective action to that. It seems to me you're saying that the Company should be more profitable, and therefore you should be paid more. That just doesn't work (if I have interpreted you correctly).

I'm not mirroring the Company's attitude or statements; go back through what I have said on this thread. I am as critical of the Company's management as you are, but I take a different view from yours on the merits of strike action.

[scoobydooo]

...However, the Company has been attempting to destabilise this important process by offering Cabin Crew money to "break the strike".

Blimey !! := I had heard this rumour but didn't want to post it due to liable. Now that the union know about it, it's out. I had heard that certain individuals in certain positions had been offered financial incentives for a result in the companies best interest.... the plot thickens ! :*

[Litebulbs]

But how can they pay anyone to break the strike as there is no more money in the pot?!

Is this the level of management that the crew are dealing with? Bribes? Is that good management? Are financial rewards for breaking industrial action, if the ballot comes back as a yes to strike, part of cabin crew terms and conditions? Virgin cabin crew is a unionised department. Any changes to pay terms and conditions should be negotiated as per the recognition agreement. Are management bringing this idea to the attention of Unite?

[vs69]

With respect to management judgement, I'm still waiting for the day where someone turns up at a business briefing and stands up to ask what the hell they are playing at and why they cant come up with a healthy profit,it's all very well us being asked to work harder,keep an eye on wastage etc but when certain departments seemingly get free reign with their budgets it all seems a bit much to me.There is no doubt the base is a great training centre and was a long time coming but the frills round the edges are just not needed,the room full of trees for gods sake,expensive comfy chairs,I could go on...While I am of the opinion that there may well be no extra money in the pot for any revised cabin crew pay deals,it would certainly be more convincing if, shall we say extravagant spending habits from certain creative departments was capped.And I realise the woes of the airline cannot just be pointed at a few trees and comfy chairs before anyone jumps down my neck,just wanted a rant as everytime I walk in that place I wonder what it all cost...

[stansdead]

vs69

hello gorgeous.......:ugh:

[vs69]

Dont even get me started mate!But how can they convince the workforce that they are not making enough money when they blow ££££££'s on decadent indulgent crap like that?

[Kasual Observer]

I am flabbergasted at the level of comment coming from some of you on this thread. It is like watching a bunch of excited schoolchildren talking about going on strike against their teachers. Once again, the naivety and lack of awareness of the consequences show up.

You have twice gone against Brian Boyd's recommendation to accept the offer he had negotiated on your behalf with the company. You obviously considered his judgement to be wrong then. Now he has written to you and suddenly his word is gospel. If I didn't know what was going on here I'd think I was watching a kids pantomime.

To read comments about the money spent on The Base and other investments made by the company being used as argument to get even more than is being offered at the moment only goes to show the rest of us that the most vociferous on here who are for industrial action, have very little knowledge of how the real world and business operate. Without being able to comprehend that decisions about investment on large projects like The Base were made long before the end result that you now see, just goes to show that you have little or no perception of what the company can actually afford. I won't go into Business Economics 101 as it is apparent that it is well above your level of comprehension.

That your union has not been able to give you the proper advice and the letter published above only goes to prove that you have a leadership with Quixotic abilities that is going to set you all back many, many years in terms of what you deserve and in industrial relations with the company.

I am not saying that the company management team have performed with any sense of achievement. The situation should never have got to this stage in the first place. However, both the company management team and your union negotiators have to share the blame. References to how well the upper management of the airline would fare if the company had to satisfy shareholders is irrelevant to the current situation.

Sadly, it is the loudest militants who appear to be making most of the running. I just hope that the majority of the cabin crew use their votes. From a straw poll taken over the last few trips I have operated, I sense that the majority are apathetic The main reason for that apathy appears to come from the lack of understanding of what is actually on offer and the consequences of rejection. That apathy has allowed a significant minority to cause a ballot for industrial action. Only around 30% of the cabin crew workforce actually voted positively to reject the current pay offer. The other 70% and those not in the union either expressed no opinion or were in agreement with the offer.

That apathy has now led us to the current ballot and unless all those apathetic cabin crew use their votes to let the company know one way or another, the vociferous militants will force industrial action and the consequences are not going to be pleasant. I honestly believe that the majority of cabin crew would rather accept the current offer and regroup in order to get their collective act together. They would rather fight a battle they are sure they can win rather than the current one that is looming and smells of defeat before we have even arrived there.

The shock and awe that some posters are making of the company's attempt to "destabilise" the process is breathtaking in its gullibility. As though your union is not and will not resort to similar tactics? Nah, of course not.

It is time to grow up and realise that you do not have the necessary numbers to support industrial action. Even if I am wrong and you do get your majority, you do not have a leadership with the necessary skills and intuition to take on the company. The management team responsible may not have anything to be proud of but they are still many levels ahead of your own union leadership and on that basis alone, you will be hard pressed to make any gains for yourselves by striking.

As I have said previously, good luck because you are certainly going to need it.

[eggie1]

some of u ppl r so lame, do u really think virgin would ever stand by u! all they care about is ££££! so be the bigger person and vote yes to strike at the end of the day its a job not a relationship as some of u virgin lovers seem to think! we will never get anything unless we stick together coz at the moment were just a joke! oh and another thing no one will be losing there job and a strike won`t ruin virgin because it will never get that far!:ugh:

rock on scoobydo! at least someone has some sense!

eggie1 :)

[vs69]

KO: I am not crew and if you re -read my post I stated that the base was a long time coming and am of the feeling that money spent on training is a good thing,its the frivolous spending that I dont understand and I am aware the place was on the cards a long time ago.Also I am against industrial action but the point I am trying to make is if the management expect us to toe the company line with respect to cost cutting etc then maybe they should lead by example and dont even start me on VK.....Coming from the department which is the 'necessary evil' maybe I am being too practical here and should stick to changing wheels and pouring oil in engines??

[scoobydooo]

Here we go again, seems I am back in a discussion I do not wish to be.


KO why do you imply that anyone interested in taking part in industrial action is childish, needs to grow up or is militant ? Many of us are level headed individuals capable of making our own informed decisions - yet you are feeling the need to tone your posts in a derogatory manner to anyone who is not prepared to accept the offer. (i.e. towards the player not the game as the mpderator might say).


I think the letter above from Mr Boyd is simply a response to those memo to crew that the company have issued on i-fly, I know I for one forward everything the company states about the strike straight to the union officials and ask for comment.


Their letter is simply a response, which also happens to mention that virgin have been offering cash incentives to individuals not to strike, you dont mention anything about that in your post other than to believe it we are gullible, rather than the levels the company have stooped to. How would you feel if they did that when you/Balpa were/are in negotiations ? It removes or at least lowers any credibility within dont you think ? I imagine you would be disgusted.

I wont comment on expenditure, been done to death.


The shock and awe that some posters are making of the company's attempt to "destabilise" the process is breathtaking in its gullibility. As though your union is not and will not resort to similar tactics? Nah, of course not.

Given the latest revelation regarding incentives shows that the company is trying to tilt the apple cart it has probably only served to push a couple of people off the fence who didn't know which way to go. The letter above is genuine and is on the myamicus site for all members of the union to see, making such accusations without hard facts would be libellous so I think we can both agree they are not making it up.

edit to add: Furthermore I do not believe the union would resort to such tactics as you imply, as they could be seen to be influencing the outcome and encouraging industrial action which under ligislation they are not allowed to do, they have simply highlighted that the company has tried to do it i.e. the company has probably just shot itself in the foot.

Lets just hope everyone votes.

[scoobydooo]

oh I forgot to say...regarding offering cash to individuals - and this is the company telling us last month they have learnt from these negotiations and will respect us and treat us differently next time round so we should accept this offer and will be treated better next time

I guess this revelation blows that out the water then ! :*

I am truly totally and utterly flabbergasted, as I say I had heard it but put it down to Galley FM. I am still genuinely shocked. :sad:

[Jcdcon]

I am a tad confused regarding the above few posts.

The company has offered me no money to "break the strike".

I think what The Union are implying is that the Co have repeatedly said "Don't strike and we will give you 4.8%".

In my opinion it is the Union who appears to be employing devious tactics by producing the insinuation that the Co are going around crew offering cash to say "No" to strike. It just is not happening.

[Kasual Observer]

I'm obviously not making myself clear so I'll make one final attempt to try and explain that I am not against you voting to strike. What I am saying is that if you do vote to strike, now, you are in effect heading for a disaster.

I understand all the hype about "why wait", "there's more money in the pot", "look at the wastage" etc. etc. The simple point is that you are weak as a union and weak with only limited support. By heading for a clash whilst weak you will do more damage than if you do so from a position of strength.

As pointed out by Jcdcon, your interpretation of the letter from Boyd and everyone elses shows how you are jumping to "uninformed" decisions. You state that "Many of us are level headed individuals capable of making our own informed decisions" yet just in that one post about what you think Boyd meant you have shot yourself in the foot.

Do you really think it is going to affect me whether you go on strike or not? The impact on me and my colleagues will be minimal, especially if you want to compare what we the pilots have taken over 6 years to achieve and what you are trying to do in one fell swoop. I honestly believe that if you do vote to strike you will only be harming yourselves in the long run. I believe that the company will manage to break the strike, at a cost, but break the strike they will because you are weak, unorganised and have a leadership that appears to have very little idea of how to handle the situation.

As I said, good luck and hopefully the vote will reflect the true majority of your colleagues desires. Unless you achieve at least 50% of the total cabin crew workforce voting for action then you will have very little chance of making any difference and most likely will set yourselves back many years.

I'm sorry if you don't like the perspective I am putting on it and you obviously don't take much heed of it. Fair enough. At least be honest with yourselves and admit that you have only limited support for this proposed action. I have no doubt that if you had the kind of support that we the pilots had when we negotiated our big increase then you would find that I and many others would be advising you to go for it.

Good luck again, because you are going to need every tiny bit of it you can get.

[scoobydooo]

However, the Company has been attempting to destabilise this important process by offering Cabin Crew money to "break the strike". In doing so it is undermining the good work Unite has carried out on behalf of our members since we achieved Trade Union recognition at Virgin Atlantic some 6 years ago.

You have your interpretation of this, I have another which is supported by other information received. Once again we shall agree to disagree.

I very much expect a shock result.

Bon weekend:ok:

[bermudatriangle]

i have every sympathy with the VS cabin crew....i talked to a crew member tonight who operated in from the far east and was asked by crewing to operate to the states sunday morning ! that results in just 1 day off...saturday.that cannot be right and if crewing expect such quick turnarounds,with no financial incentive,it's no wonder a strike is looming !

[In The Pink]

Ko

Your posts are laden with military simile, condescension and plain ignorance as to why the airline cannot afford a reasonable offer.

Your reference as to "how well the upper management of the airline would fare if the company had to satisfy shareholders is irrelevant to the current situation." is laughable.

Their under performance is THE very reason (not an irrelevance) why the airline cannot afford an unconditional RPI increase.

That rarefied cockpit air has clearly removed you from all reality.

[TightSlot]

Once again - play the ball, not the player: Do not personalize the argument. I know that I'm nagging about this, but trust me, this situation is likely to become more strained than it is now, before it gets better.

Kasual Observer has posted politely and intelligently - not working for VS I have no idea whether he/she is accurate or not. What I do know is that a rather more considered response is required than simply throwing verbal rocks.

[Rumour Monger]

Long time viewer, first time poster, eventually got sucked in. Been enjoying this debate and thought I’d add to it by posting Lyell’s response to Brian Boyd from iFly.


Dear Brian,

I was surprised and dismayed to read today’s letter you have sent to our Cabin Crew. As you are well aware we jointly structured and recommended the last two pay offers based on your guidance and input. The final pay offer (4.8% in year 1 and RPI in Year 2) was constructed after we shared with you the detailed Cabin Crew feedback we had gathered. You were also briefed in detail on the financial performance of our business.

To our surprise you came into the final negotiations expecting to make small changes to the conditions in the offer. It was Virgin Atlantic who made the decision to remove all conditions and structure the current offer as a result of the listening exercise we conducted with our Cabin Crew.

In your letter you make some serious allegations, which I need to address:

· You implied that we have threatened disciplinary action for those who may strike. This is not true and would be unlawful.

· You also implied that Virgin Atlantic would offer financial incentives to Crew to break the strike. Our priority if you disrupt and threaten our business is to our customers and the security of all our employees.

When we shook hands on the final offer, we believed, based on your words we had struck the best pay increase in the industry for Cabin Crew this year.

You understand the difficult and challenging trading conditions in which we are operating, so you know there can be no improvement to the offer, to imply in your communication that the crew would be better off after taking strike action is not in the best interest of my Crew.

Brian, many of our crew are deeply worried about the consequences of this course of action, and rightly so, and communications which inflame the situation do not help.

Lyell Strambi
Chief Operating Officer

[Jcdcon]

Well, who would have thought it?

Brian Boyd it seems wanted conditions to remain in HIS solution to the pay deal - the Company decided to remove most of the conditions and offer the crew a better deal.

If ever there was an indication that it the Company who are on the side of the crew, not the Union and Mr Boyd (who seems to forget when talking to the Press that the Crew rejected HIS recommendation) then I think we have it.

The company has been accused of being under-hand, secretive, falsifying details and being non-crew friendly. The letter above appears to indicate that they have been nothing short of straight forward and the Union have been up to dirty tricks.

I know which one I think walks away from this mess with some integrity.

[vs_lhr]

I was still laughing at Boyd's assertion that Unite had "a clear mandate" after securing a vote from less than 30% of the workforce, so it's unsurprising to me that the rest of his letter is full of holes.

Unite - and Boyd in particular - have bungled the negotiations from day one, and LS's letter only confirms that.

[VCCM]

Ah yes, now the willy measuring in public begins. Who knows who is and is not telling the truth but the propaganda war continues, more mud slinging than the US elections to be expected, ending in a round of my dad is bigger than yours and a playground punch up.

As the crew have not received the update by snail mail, how hid LS know to compose a reply ? Could it be that management are keeping a close eye on our discussions here ? Hello :) now back to work please.

[Jcdcon]

VCCM

The B Boyd letter was published on the Union website.

[scoobydooo]

VCCM the letter was posted to the union website.

Hey, no longer is Hatton and Mayweather the big fight of the weekend, Its Strambi and Boyd , ladies and Gents perhaps we should just get the two
in the ring at the MGM to warm the crowd before the big event let them settle this the old fashioned way :p

I note

You also implied that Virgin Atlantic would offer financial incentives to Crew to break the strike. Our priority if you disrupt and threaten our business is to our customers and the security of all our employees.


So he doesnt deny it then. :E

[vs_lhr]

So he doesnt deny it then.

Interestingly he doesn't, does he? Although it does seem odd that VS would have offered cash to break a strike before a strike has actually been called. Has anyone on here been offered, or heard of this offer? How would it work - money offered to those on the picket lines to get back to work? Not sure I follow this. That's something I'd love to know more about.

The flip side of the coin is it's a perfectly understandable comment from LS. Virgin will do absolutely everything they can to protect their business. They are not going to take industrial action lying down, so expect any and all possible reactions if this goes to strike.

Boyd, on the other had, seems way out of his depth here. Everything about his handling of negotiations has been amateur. Unite, and the ineffectual Brian Boyd, need to be shown the door and a better-equipped union found for the task.

[JBfly]

I have just flown with a training captain who told us how the company are going to break any strike, he was confident that the information was correct as it had apparently come from the new crewing manager. The company are going to train up a huge number of office staff with the very minimum training and use them to replace any striking crew.

As long as the union do odd days rather than blocks, they are confident that they can keep flights going. However, it seems a number of pilots are aware of this and are alarmed at the prospect of having to fly with crew with minimum training and no experience to the point where they will be writing to the CAA and newspapers to warn them the dangers of such a situation.

Would the company seriously risk lives to keep flights going through a strike? How can a PA operate a defib? How can someone from marketing organise a restraint? What about a major fire on-board?

If they are going to put profit before safety then our managment are worse than we first thought.

[Litebulbs]

I am sorry Tightslot, but post 138 by KO is hardly polite.

Please do not be selective.

[vs_lhr]

I have just flown with a training captain who told us how the company are going to break any strike, he was confident that the information was correct as it had apparently come from the new crewing manager.

And galley FM re-tunes again...

A friend of a friend of my sister's cleaner swears she saw Elvis on the bus.

I'd say the chance of using office-based staff to crew flights is extremely unlikely. Firstly, they aren't about to do anything which would raise an eyebrow at the CAA while the union can jump all over them; and secondly, office based staff have jobs to do too, and even minimum training is going to take them away from functions that keep the airline ticking. If they weren't needed in the office, why are they being employed?

A more realistic scenario is that during strike action, Virgin will pay bonuses to non-strikers who are prepared to cover on their days off. This may be the 'strike breaker' payments that the union is bandying about.

[Jcdcon]

Before that last post gets out of hand, there are a few things which should be pointed out. Yet another case of my mate told me, and he heard it from x etc.

Many of the people who are on the ground are seconded crew - it would be they who are called upon, and they have extensive experience as crew - a quick refreshers course, or recency exam and off they go. Many of them fly regularly anyway - CPM's, Training Instructors, Service Delivery etc.

Anybody else from another department would operate as non-required crew, therefore there is no legal reason for the CAA to become involved.

Remember the company are doing this to ensure minimum disruption for our passengers - a welcome move.

[Jcdcon]

vs-lhr - there are no incentive payments offered to non-striking crew. It just is not happening.

And it will make more sense to keep the airline afloat by using office staff on secondments as crew, as opposed to keeping them on the ground, say training - whats the point of training new crew or those on promotion courses if there is irreparable damage to the airline.

[JBfly]

The person who gave us this information is in the know or he should be as one of the A340 management guys.

.... and are you seriously saying that they could crew 30 flights a day with 15 CPM's who dont have a clue and 20 or 30 trainers?

[Jcdcon]

JbFly

Thats exactly what I am saying - firstly there are a lot more seconded crew than the figures you have provided.

Secondly, there are a lot of crew who are non-union members, and based on the posts on here, there are a lot of Union members who will elect to fly should a strike take place. between all of that, there will be little or no disruption.

Your source was correct in some ways ie ground staff working as crew - it was the details that were wrong

[JBfly]

OK, you think the company can rely on seconded crew, you do the maths.

30 flights a day with an average of 15 crew - 450 crew or with minimum crew 300 a day! Now say we strike for 3 consecutive days (even Brian Boyd wont be stupid enough just to do one day), to keep the operation going you would need 1000 crew min.

Your view that non members will come to work is just fantasy, they will go sick. The majority of them want more money and will go along with it rather than break a strike.

The only way to get close to a figure of 1000 even relying on that huge army of seconded crew (Cant be more than at the most another 20) the company will be training up office workers to fill crew positions.

Not sure if you a managment or FD, but if you have a feeling for what is going on at the moment you will know they feeling amongst the crew and dont be surprised if this result will revert back to the 90% yes to strike with a high turnout

[Jcdcon]

You figures are based on everyone striking - that is ill-informed and delusional. It is not going to happen.

29% of total crew said no to the last deal. That in itself suggests that strike action is a minority driven outcome. When I speak to my colleagues (am a CSS) many of them, and many of those who post on here, are more than willing to work.

And quickly doing the maths there are more than 2000 crew who are not union members who will be required to work with minimum rest to ensure flights are crewed - based on your example, you do the maths.

It seems you have your logic for this, and I have mine. Lets leave it at that.

[scoobydooo]

The maths, using the figures of the last vote as example;

Let us assume 3000 crew and imagine a strike ballot is carried by the minimum percentage, e.g. 51%.
Let us also assume only 69% of ballot papers returned as per last vote. (2070 votes)
Let us assume that of the 51% (1055) that vote for industrial action that 50% (527) of them actually carry it through or are scheduled to operate on the days of industrial action (or the return flights)


(I believe these figures are all extreme LOW examples)


I do not honestly believe the company could muster up 527 people. Of those trainers for example some of those crew who are in ground roles are also members of the union and could take part in industrial action.

and based on the posts on here, there are a lot of Union members who will elect to fly should a strike take place. between all of that, there will be little or no disruption.

I would say that the majority of posts on here have supported the last pay offer and to accept it, yet 60% of 2070 said No to the last vote so perhaps post opinion here is not a true representation of cabin crew feeling. Also "to state that between all of that there will be little or no disruption" I understand the company has to portray a positive image to passengers but one has to be realistic too, look what happened when Air France said there will be little or no disruption last month - Carnage ! (yes situation was different but the expectation of business as usual is the same as yours JD)

[Jcdcon]

Yet again - you are assuming all strikers will be rostered a flight that day. Flights will continue with minimum crew - which can be covered easily with the non-union members, those who volunteer to work on days off (which there have been many on here and cc.com offering to do) and suitable ground based crew.

Not once did I imply it was business as usual - I stated that they would endeavour to minimise disruption, which I believe is achievable. Air France had a much stronger Union representation.

Am bored of all of this now - think I will take a leaf out of your book Scooby and let the ballot decide, so until then...BYE!!

Ps hope I last longer away than the day or two you did! lol

[JBfly]

To pick up your point on numbers our union reps are stating there are 3100 union members and 900 non-union members - not 2000.

You are missing the point. A training captain has stated infront of a group of us including both his FO concerns, recounting in detail how the company are going to circumnavigate normal standard operating procedures to the point where he would refuse to operate under these conditions. These sought of comments do not normally come from someone who's job it is to ensure the safe operation of the airline.

I am an FSM and I would not be happy operating with 11 office staff who have done 3 days SEP training! Would you?

[scoobydooo]

Yet again - you are assuming all strikers will be rostered a flight that day.no I didn't. that was accounted for in this statement
that 50% (527) of them actually carry it through or are scheduled to operate on the days of industrial action (or the return flights)
Not once did I imply it was business as usual
sorry that was my mistake, my interpretation of your comment between all of that, there will be little or no disruption.
We both agree that we are bored of it though, I hope I can stay away too, I dont think I even managed 2 days. It's difficult when ones passion is so high about such an emotive subject as our jobs and terms and conditions continually being nibbled at by the company, everyone has a different breaking point, unfortunately this camels back went a while ago.
Lets leave Strambi and Boyd to spar:hmm:

[vs_lhr]

Scooby - the maths is easier to figure out if you base it on how many people Virgin need on a single day to operate flights, rather than how many of the total workforce you'd be down regardless of whether they are scheduled to operate or not.

Depending on the day of the week, there's probably 28-ish return flights per day, with an average of 16 crew on each leg. That's about 900 people needed to cover one days' flights.

If, as you suggest, about 1000 crew are taking part in industrial action, that leaves 3000 to cover the schedules. Management will clearly do what they can to ensure as many non-striking staff are available for work as possible, and will schedule accordingly. Add to that the seconded crew outlined by Jcdcon, and it's a workable situation for Virgin.

Being 25% down on the workforce will be a pain; and I can quite easily envisage delays to flights because of the chaos of scheduling. But it could work, and if the strikes are limited to single days here and there, the company will ride through this.

[JBfly]

R U serious. Of course Brian Boyd wont call one day strikes, he knows that Virgin can handle one day here and there.

He has already said to crew that he has been in contact with, that any strikes will be in blocks to stop the operation otherwise strike action will be a waste of time. We will see blocks of three days each week.

[vs_lhr]

Based on the above, 3 days is still coverable.

You sound as though the goal is to make Virgin fold, not bring about a better offer.

[JBfly]

No I dont want VS to fold, but I want them to take us seriously and they wont with a half hearted attempt of the odd day here and there. In fact unless we stand together we could come of much worse, if the company man flights with the office staff and carry on.

It terms of Virgin being able to cover the operation they cant fully crew flights presently with 4000 crew! You forget we have the worse mangment in the industry and maybe, just maybe SRB may decide to give us some decent directors after this mess is finally over

[Tags]

We must have more than 4000 C/C as we have 750 pilots that fly 750 hours a year with only a handful of part timers!

The numbers don't seem to add up to me! My guess is at least 5000.

[vs_lhr]

JBfly, assuming your vision of the future is correct, and the union calls multiple blocks of three-day action over a period of 2 or more weeks, I would expect the atmosphere, when you're back in work for the other 4 days, is going to be less than pleasant trying to work with crew who haven't been striking and covering your jobs to keep the airline running. The them-and-us mentality will make everyones working hours a nightmare.
I always thought the rallying call to vote yes to strike was to send a clear message to management and force a new offer (not that I think that would happen, by the way, but that's what I've read into pro-Yes vote posts). You, on the other hand, seem to be taking Schadenfreuden glee in the thought of disrupting the airline as much as possible.
At best this attitude will destroy working relationships with your colleagues. At worst you'll take the airline to the brink, and that 4.8% will be a percentage of zero when the redundancies kick in.
There's been some very reasoned and sensible advice from the flight crew on here who have already shown they know how to negotiate. At the moment the strike vote is too weak, the goals far too unclear and the union completely disorganised. It's time to retreat and reorganise for the next round of negotiations.

[stansdead]

We have 800 pilots, not 750.

[Tags]

I see 771 on the last seniority list, and it's 4 months old so I guess we must be close to 800.

Thinking about it again, my guess would be 4500 crew, I'm guessing most of the schedule will still run!

[virgin mary]

I have just got back from an east coast trip and a straw poll of the crew in the hotel, (so more than one crew) was about a 50/50 split. And an fsm who will vote yes what ever the offer as she just wants to strike??...And many of the crew will now be visiting this site!

Interestingly we met with an aer lingus crew who had a lot to say about our situation. Firstly they were amazed at our low pay, but they were also amazed at our disorganisation and that we had gone against the unions recomendations to accept the offer. After our little straw poll they were all of the opinion that we are moving like lambs to the slaughter! And were genuinly concerned for us. (Ahhh) During their little dispute a couple of years ago they all got a very nasty shock when the company (who were also pleeding poverty and claiming they were on the brink) locked them out and simply shut the airline down for a few days more, this apparently lessoned the costs incurred to the company and helped them weather the storm, and this extra time with no money coming in really started to hurt the crews pockets.
Does anyone think this could happen here?
They also had a number of crew sacked for a number of petty things, their union supported the claims for unfair dissmissal and even won a little compensation for some, but aer lingus just didn't seem to care about these claims of unfair sacking, they just did it anyhow! Could virgin do this??

[vs_lhr]

They also had a number of crew sacked for a number of petty things, their union supported the claims for unfair dissmissal and even won a little compensation for some, but aer lingus just didn't seem to care about these claims of unfair sacking, they just did it anyhow! Could virgin do this??

I wouldn't put it past them.

An office-based friend of mine was sacked last year because he was posting airline-related information on a website (ie, the specifics of which aircraft operated a particular route). Not withstanding the fact that much of this information is of public record, they treated it as discussing company confidential info. His feeling was that they used that as the excuse to get rid of him 'cos his manager didn't always see eye-to-eye with him. So I guess that means the Company will be ruthless when it needs to be; so strikers need to watch their back and ensure they're not caught doing anything at all which they could be pulled up on. Including posting company info on public websites. Ah... balls. ;)

[tin tin]

Unfair dismissal

Lets suppose I am a really hardnosed airline owner/manager.

My crew are planning a strike that could cost me several million pounds per day??
As I’m a very, very hardnosed businessman I think I will take on the union and the law that supports them. Why? I don’t think I care about unfair dismissal claims when my business is being held to ransom by a divided and poorly organised minority who have an even poorer understanding of employment law.

What does the law say about unfair dismissal claims??

Statutory protection against unfair dismissal is given to employees with at least one year’s continuous employment. An Employment Tribunal has power to award compensation for unfair dismissal up to £56,800. Awards made by Employment Tribunals for the calculation of compensation are made up of the Basic award and the Compensatory Award.
Basic Award
For service below the age of 22 this is half a week’s pay for each year of service. For service between the ages of 22 and 40 inclusive one weeks pay for each year of service and for ages 41 to 65 one and a half week’s pay for each year of service. A week's pay is capped at £310 and the basic award is subject to a maximum of £9,300.
Compensatory Award
The maximum compensation is £60,600 except for discrimination cases where there is no maximum.
The Compensatory Award is intended to included compensation for:-
loss of earnings
employer’s pension contributions
loss of other benefits e.g. company car or any other perks.
An employee has a duty to mitigate his loss i.e. look for other work and failure to do so can result in a reduction of compensation. A Tribunal can also reduce the award to have regard to the employees contribution to his or her dismissal.

So, as my crew have backed me into a corner, If I just sack a group of the ringleaders or people who seem to be going sick regularly, have had a poor appraisal etc etc and I just accept that it will cost me nearly £1million or so, I will frighten the hell out of most of the strikers and make most of them come back to work pretty quickly, leaving an even smaller number of hardliners to be weeded out at my leisure, I will break the strike before it even started or at worst early into it and I have not incurred the cost of a fully established strike. Hmmm that will do for a start.

This is the real world!!!

If you don’t think this can’t happen….do your research, it can and it has.

[scoobydooo]

VS_LHR saying, "At the moment the strike vote is too weak", we really dont know what it is.

Regarding office based person sacked for posting info in the public domain, maybe they didn't have adequate union representation, I know I would challenge any such finding, especially if it could be proved the information was in the domain already (e.g. v-flyer), I would suggest said ex employee seeks legal advice.



tin tin, Interesting thoughts, in response;

If a number of union members were sacked for whatever reason the company made up (appraisals and performance monitoring would be hard unless someone had a poor history and I envisage they would no longer be with us anyway). It is more than likely it could be proved that these steps were taken against union members then it would be automatically unfair dismissal (less than 8 weeks) and clear discrimination against an employee for being a union member .


If discrimination was proved (wouldn't be hard mass culling of union represented employees) the claim for discrimination as your correctly stated is unlimited. Just as Balpa would I would imagine Unite (T&G and amicus) would go to town on them, the unions would make an example of any employer to show that an employer may not discriminate union workers (after all it would be attacking the very thing that both the unions are there to protect and it would also threaten their revenues i.e. what would be the point in being a member of a union if a company could do this), I imagine it would all be done on a very high profile basis too.


Damages awarded would not be limited and I imagine the mess would be far worse and detrimental to the company.


Furthermore if they did wield their axe in such a manner and aggressively unfairly dismiss any employee they could not selectively re-employee ANY of those individuals , all or nothing or automatically it would be further fodder for all individuals to claim unfair dismissal.


I imagine compensation would far exceed the value you have mentioned if such a blatant attack on UK employment laws rights was carried out and this paragraph which you failed to mention would be exercised propbably costing the company significantly
Some types of cases can attract special compensation such as, if the reason for the unfair dismissal was related to trade union membership or action taken to avoid a dangerous health & safety situation.
Compensation may be increased or reduced if either party failed to follow the statutory dismissal and disciplinary procedure.
source http://www.thompsons.law.co.uk/ltext/l1020001.htm (http://www.thompsons.law.co.uk/ltext/l1020001.htm)

As to would they,who knows but a company that cant crew flights adequately now would be in trouble if they started culling more, reputation would soon turn to mud as services could not be carried out to the expected standard. and they would be sailing into very dangerous waters.
I'm no lawyer though.

[vs_lhr]

Scooby,

Without going into the full details of the case (not really my position to do so), the information posted was from the intranet; so by the same token, anyone quoting iFly on here, cc.com or v-flyer is revealing company confidential info publicly. There's nothing the union can do about it - it's a clear breach of contract and it can be used as a reason for dismissal.

[Digitalis]

I think Tin Tin's scenario is highly unlikely. Virgin might like to think of itself as hard-nosed in business, but it also likes to think of itself as a good and trustworthy employer. Right now, you might not feel the same way - but how much of your impression is fed by the actions of the Company, and how much by Galley FM? By all rational and demonstrable measures, Virgin is a fair employer with a good history of looking after its employees. Not perfect or flawless, but good. It won't be willing to lose that reputation for the sake of ridding itself of a few activists.

The straw-polls that others have posted here are backed up by my own research; around 50% or less back the idea of a strike (though far fewer have any idea what exactly a strike is intended to achieve). A small percentage of these genuinely want to bring the Company down and really don't care who they take with them. A larger percentage want to 'punish' the Company for some inept management over the last year or two, yet are happy to take the deal if it's still on the table after any strike. A large number of the potential strikers simply think 'it's the right thing to do', but are unable to explain their position any further.

A very significant number of those I spoke to say they would vote for a strike, but would work any good trips they had rostered during any strike action, and thought that that would be fine because they would have done their bit by voting for a strike! The overall impression I get is that, apart from a few hardliners - including those who want to sink the Company, any strike would be very poorly supported. The ramifications of that for the Union are very serious indeed; membership would significantly decline, and the Union's ability to influence future CC terms and conditions would be severely damaged. That would be a disaster for all employees in Virgin Atlantic.

Once again, I urge you to think very carefully about what you are about to do.

PS. On the subject of strike-breaking, teh company is able to mobilise a surprisingly large number of experienced ex-CC from other departments. Together with the non-union CC, and those who decided they simply couldn't afford to strike, it's likely that the Company could run the majority of its programme, albeit with reduced - but legal - crew numbers. Extra payments to work during the strike would probably not be necessary, but I believe they would be a legitimate tactic if the Company chose to use it - however, that's for the lawyers to argue over.

[scoobydooo]

Thanks for reply VS-LHR, my angle would be that as the information was already in the public domain as you mentioned. A case that the 'confidential information' he/she was alleged to have reproduced could of been reproduced form the public domain and not Ifly - hard to prove otherwise unless it was a a simple ifly cut n paste that's different.

e.g. v-flyer has most information any pax would want these days about routes, catering, a/c etc etc. As it's one of your friends might be worth mentioning to them.

Anyway moving on....

[President Bush]

Going on strike is a clear breach of contract and they can fire you for that,END OF. You would have no recourse. Oh,and going sick on a strike day will be considered as going on strike on a strike day,and therefore a sackable situation. The potential response to your action is unaffected by whether or not you hold union membership-VS have no idea which individuals are members and which are not.
You only have a legal right to strike,NOT a legal right to keep your job if-IF the company decide to fire you.Hasn't your union made that clear? If not,examine your legal position WITH THEM!

[vs_lhr]

President Bush (how nice of you to join us!),

I have to question your interpretation of the law on this one. You are right in saying that striking is a breach of contract, which means the company can take actions including withholding pay, but the law protects strikers from dismissal *during* the strike if the only reason they give is because the employee is on strike. If you are pulled up for some other reason, then that would be dealt with through the normal disciplinary procedures.

My understanding is that the company must wait a minimum of 12 weeks, and they must show that they have made reasonable efforts to negotiate with employees, and then if they want to dismiss strikers then they cannot discriminate and must dismiss *all* strikers (none of whom can be re-employed for a minimum of 3 months).

Now, there's some wiggle room in the interpretation of 'reasonable efforts to negotiate', since as Virgin have put multiple offers on the table and met with the union throughout the process, they could claim they have lived up to that side of the bargain. Whether they would pull the trigger and fire all strikers following the 12 week minimum period remains to be seen.

Virgin won't make it easy for strikers, but they will have to abide by employment law!

[BlueTui]

:ok:VS LHR is right



Bluetui
ex union rep:)

[Digitalis]

VS LHR is absolutely correct. For more information, see this BBC link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A2053900) and other pages linked to from it.

'President Bush' (interesting choice of name!) is being deliberately provocative and is intending to scare those of you unsure of your position. While I'm in no position to give any reassurances on behalf of the Company, it is extremely unlikely that the Company would attempt any retaliatory action against striking CC after or during the event, with the possible exception of those who agitate illegally against the Company or any individuals. All regular CC who simply follow a legal and mandated call for industrial action will be quite safe - though you will not be paid for any periods you are absent from work while striking (the Company has put out a clear guide to this). Your Union should give you the full guidance; I would be surprised if you haven't had it already - though, in this dispute, nothing your Union does (or doesn't do!) should surprise me!

If you are in any doubt, contact your Union directly. And don't take any notice of anonymous attempts at intimidation. It's ok to disagree, and it's ok to offer opinions and information, but intimidation is wrong. Ignore it.

[vsgla]

Why is everybody so annoyed with what the union has done. They only advise members on what they believe is the best decision. They don't force people to vote either way. Now that the majority have spoken they have to try to deliver what the majority want and at the moment that is a strike ballott.
In any industry i've worked in when the threat of strike came along i went out and did the research into what this means exactly, It wasn't upto the union to educate me, they had to assume that if i was happy to vote in favour of strike action then i must be aware of the consequenses. The union reps numbers are available to all members so if there is any confusion about what is happening then they are just a phone call away.

Also, the pilots are soon going to start negotiations for their own pay deal, does anyone know what they are likely to be looking for? Whatever it is if we don't see this through now they will get what extra we could have got. I'll bet the company find a nice pot of money when those guys come knocking if we don't stand firm.

[vsgla]

The problem we have here is that too many people are forgeting that our crew in the more senior ranks are vastly under payed how ever you look at it. Saying that, all of our crew are recieving much lower trip pay than most of our competators. I know that the company will argue that our business model is totally different to most of our competators but how long can we accept this arguement. Something has to change at some point and our crew have decided that that point is now. Whats wrong with that?
Our crew do the job to a high level with regard to safety and service hence the frequent awards, it's time the company stop relying on the good will of the staff they have and actually stump up for the commitment and loyalty shown by the crew over the past 22 years.
If it was my company i would have tried to get away with it for as long as possible too but i would also have had the foresight enough to realise that this was coming and maybe have had a contingency plan for this. How long would our pilots have put up with the conditions that put them way behind our comparators? They answered that in the last round of pay negotiations when they did what we are trying to do now so come on people, it's our crews turn to put themselves in a better position like you guys did. Back them up and we'll all be in a more satisfactory position.

As for where the money is going to come from. If it's not already in the company then it'll have to come from somewhere else around this vast empire, it seems all the other branches are using that resourse when needed. Well now it's needed in the cabin crew department. Take note Mr Branson

[vs_lhr]

As for where the money is going to come from. If it's not already in the company then it'll have to come from somewhere else around this vast empire, it seems all the other branches are using that resourse when needed. Well now it's needed in the cabin crew department. Take note Mr Branson

Please, can we stop propagating this myth that Branson is able to dig down the back of the sofa and satisfy the crew pay demands with a couple of million stuck to a half-eaten toffee.

This is a business. Virgin Group and SIA are both shareholders. When there is a profit in the company, the board can elect to pay its shareholders a dividend. Unless the company was going down the tubes and the shareholders wanted to prop it up to protect their investment, the money doesn't go back the other way. Money in Branson's or Virgin Group's bank account does not belong to Virgin Atlantic.

And before someone pipes up with the laughable assertion that Virgin have all sorts of shady accounting practises that mean they've been squirrelling away mountains of cash that don't appear on the books; remember that all companies have to be independently audited, and since the days of Enron scandals, there's very little chance a company the size and profile of Virgin would be able to hide money away from the scrutiny of the tax man under recent regimes. Obviously certain members of the cabin crew feel they have more expertise in this area than KPMG, Arthur Andersen or Ernst & Young.

What has become abundantly clear is that the current dispute is simply disorganised. The union don't know what they're supposed have been fighting for and have lacked basic communication skills in dealing with the membership. Brian Boyd looks like a man trying to advance his own career in a newly merged union rather than a level-headed negotiator with the crew's interests at heart. It is time to step back from this mess. Accept the deal (surprisingly) still on the table, and be better prepared for the next round of pay talks. Preferably with a different union.

[scoobydooo]

Yes we could accept a dealwhere we have to sacrifice terms for an RPI increase or we couldstick together and get something closer to what we deserve without having to give up conditions. Everyone has their own agenda. As for there is no more money, they said that when they offered 2% ! cry wolf.

[vs_lhr]

That's where we differ, Scooby. I respect your opinion, but I don't believe management will produce a better offer, and they are ready to fight.

Given the disorganisation of the negotiation, it would be better to accept this is as far as it can go *at this stage*. Then, in 18 months time, the negotiation will be better placed for further agreement. Like the pilots, this needs to be seen as a progression, not a nuclear strike.

[sparkydamar]

It has been with great interest that I have followed this thread, as a virgin frequent flyer I was trawling through the web trying to find some info on the proposed strike and I stumbled on your forum. May I just contribute to this well balanced debate that virgin staff I feel are the best in the world and I have flown with many airlines, so I was shocked to hear that they are so unhappy with the current pay conditions, in my experience underpaid and over worked staff do not produce the consistently high levels of service that as a customer have always enjoyed from the virgin teams. It seems to me that reading between the lines that the union is now about to try and heard these bright individuals into some kind of strike action. Maybe the deal on the table is not so bad after all of course time will tell. On the flipside, of course I want these people to get the best possible deal available they deserve at least that, but I have a sneaky suspicion that many of these individuals do not really want this strike, and is this really a case of unions working in harmony with management and staff to broker the best deal for both parties or is this about ego. To finish if my flight is cancelled who am I going to blame, it will not be the virgin staff who have looked after me so many times in the past. IT WILL BE THE UNION

[vsfsm]

The union recommended the last deal so i hardly think they are trying to cause a strike. A union rep came into my briefings before the last ballott to recommend that we vote yes to the last deal so that it would put us in a good position for the next set of negotiations. As soon as he went out of the room my crew said they would be voting no as they are fed up with waiting until the next deal and the next deal and so on..... I have to say i agreed with them.

I appreciate what the union have done for us in the last 6 years but the majority of our members feel that now is the time for the company to show some loyalty to us and dig deeper. If the money has to come out of the pot thats in place for the pilots imminent pay rise then so be it, then they will have to fight like we have to get what they feel is fair.

The company must have known this was going to happen eventually. Why didn't they plan for it. It is not our fault the management in place are incompetent enough not to have forseen this, all the crew did..

[scoobydooo]

I forgot to say, Yesterday I read the latest supposedly crew FAQ's on the ifly site. It's like the episode from Kitchen nightmares when the guy wrote his own restaurant reviews and put them on google. :}

[vsgla]

If anyone remembers 1st year history they'll remember Lord HeeHaw. He's the Nazi propaganda tool who used to broadcast bogus news reports from Europe into britain telling the Brits that our boys were taking a battering and there would be no point carrying on with the fight because the Germans would win anyway. Well that FAQ page is pretty much just the same. Propaganda to try to scare crew into voting against industrial action.
Well done Heir ridgeway

[BostonBill]

The FAQ page is stating some facts. Your response is claiming propaganda. This is propaganda itself in implying that the FAQ page is inaccurate and not to be trusted.


I can only see proaganda from both sides. If the same amount of energy were invested in reasoned discussion and dare i say it "compromise" then we'd all win.:ugh:

[stansdead]

vsgla

If you remember your history lessons, you would remember the "gentleman" in question was known as Lord HawHaw.

Not Lord HeeHaw.

Lesson over, you must try harder.:eek:

[TightSlot]

Presumably vsgla also intended it to be "Herr" Ridgeway rather than "Heir".

:ugh:

If you're going to be a smartass, then it pays to be smart as well.

Why am I contributing to this thread? - Because vsgla is attempting a (tedious) linkage between Nazism and Virgin Managers: Sadly, Nazi comparisons are almost inevitable during times of industrial unrest - and are always inappropriate and offensive. So don't do it again - ever.

[vs_lhr]

I would suggest those that are dismissing the FAQs offer some evidence to the contrary rather than claiming they are fabrication.

I am certainly prepared to believe the company will 'spin' to present themselves in a positive light, but to accuse them of bare-faced lies without proof is irresponsible.

[vsgla]

Sorry, I thought Lord HeeHaw was more appropriate. Cause apparently thats how much money this company makes. The inference that the information on the FAQ is wrong was not intentional but that doesn't mean it's not propaganda.

I've sent a few questions to the company like. When are the pilots due to start their pay negotiations and. What do the company feel the pilots will see as a fair deal. I don't expect to get an answer to either as these types of questions don't help when your trying to plead poverty. If there's no money what are they going to pay the pilots in a couple of months when they start asking for a fair rise?

HEEHAW

I don't think so.....

[Tags]

Nothing has been put to the troops as yet!

What makes you think the pilot's will achieve a pay rise?

Our last 2 deals were negotiated when the company produced a far greater ROS than we currently are. That said, part of our pay is geared around a 3 year averaged ROS, with a poor ROS, the pilot's monthly take home will go down.

Personally I think we'll go for "lifestyle issues" and not monetary gain due to VS's current trading position!

[In The Pink]

Hi Tags

"Lifestyle issues" with an RPI pay increase "tagged" on no doubt.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

2 days to go before the ballot closes and still haven't received a paper. A call to Unite unveiled the fact that many are in the same position and would be unlikely to receive one before the 20th.

Now that's a professional union.

Resignation en-route!

[tin tin]

Shanwick, I would say that's is the fault of the individual, not the union!

vsgla, the company will not give you any info on the pilot pay talks as you are not a pilot. Even the pilots would just be referred to our union web site.

[stansdead]

I have said it before and I will say it again: The Pilots pay talks are not linked to the CC pay talks.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why some of you are so concerned with Pilot pay talks that have not yet even begun.

You should concentrate on your own battle rather than worrying about other people's.

As Pilots won't get any inflation busting deal ,because quite frankly I believe that VS does not have pots of Cash to pay it with.

Read the Papers, the World is changing economically. And Changing rapidly too. Hard times are ahead.

[Digitalis]

This is not now, nor will it ever be, a battle between pilots and cabin crew. Those who would make it so need to calm down and get a bit of perspective. Pilots and CC are just two of several workgroups within the company. They may be the largest and most important groups, but there are many others. All are entitled to expect rises which reflect increases in the cost of living, subject to the Company having the funds to pay those rises without risking its own survival. Naturally, the amount that would risk survival will be disputed between the Company and its employees, but there most certainly is a limit, as anyone with an ounce of common sense can work out.

Now, Vslga, exactly as you would be upset if pilots could get answers from the Company about your confidential pay negotiations, so pilots are entitled to have their talks' confidentiality respected. That is why you won't get an answer. And, for the umpteenth time, the pilots' pay was not raised by one set of pay talks, or one years' deal. It took 6 (SIX) years of patient negotiating and getting a bit at a time. That's longer than most CC will work for the Company!

Shanwick Shanwick you make my point (from this post (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3761158&postcount=182)) eloquently: the Union's disorganised and shambolic approach will lose them members, which will have an inevitable negative impact on the CC's ability to negotiate a satisfactory settlement either now or in the future. If the CC - the largest negotiating group in the Company - fail to get a satisfactory deal, there is little hope for anyone else in the Company, especially those who have no Union representation. That is why this is so important to everyone else, and why you (collectively) should back off and keep your powder dry until you are properly organised and led.

[vsgla]

Why is it the unions fault if a large amount of it's members wait until 2 days before the close of ballott to enquire about their own ballott form? People cannot say they were not aware of the situation and when my ballott didn't arrive when i started hearing that others had, i called a union rep and got the number for our head office. A ballott form was on my doorstep the next morning. Whats so hard about that. This ballott was run for 3 weeks, 1 week longer than traditional ballotts ofthis nature to cater for our industry. So peolpe cannot say they were away on a HongKong Sidney flight and didn't have time. If they were that bothered they would have done everything to ensure they got a ballott.:ugh:

Pilots

You guys were not happy at lagging way behind the industry leaders when you went for your last pay deal, so you threatened the company by utilising your entitlement to a ballott. You are now better payed than most other pilots in the industry and still have good lifestyle benefits. At the time, the company pleaded poverty but low and behold. At the last minute the money was found to give you a deal that a majority of your members were happy with. The detrimental effect to the company was furthest from your mind as your members focused on what they felt would put you among the best paid pilots in the industry.

I ask the question again. Why shouldn't the cabin crew do the same.

Why should we take your advise and listen to the company's pained bleeting about affordability when only a few years ago you didn't. It all smacks of self interest as you realise that if we do get the company to find the money or face action, you might not be in a position to push for as much as you hope you might achieve.

You have a small work force in comparison to the cabin crew. You also have a more mature work force who when it comes to situations like this take a greater interset and actually become involved(as a general majority). It is easier therefor for your union to assume that you understand these situations and they can assume that if you don't you will contact them.
Our members number far greater than yours and are generaly a lot younger and less interested in the day to day running of the company than your members and so don't see the benefit that our union has given our comunity.
So imagine how many crew are sitting at home now wondering where the ballott form is and why it hasn't been delivered yet, but who wont think that maybe they should have picked up the phone to enquire about the ballott before now. Also think about the amount of crew who are sitting at home with a ballott but are deciding not to bother sending it back because they are not sure how to vote, rather than going and attempting to gain the info required to make an informed decision. If people can't be :mad: to even bother then who's fault is that. Its not rocket science.

So don't sit there banding about insults about our union and it's reps when you have no idea. I have utilised some of the reps in the past and i'm aware of the effort they put in throughout the year. Too many people are jumping on the band wagon and taking the easy excuse. Its not the unions fault, any union is only as strong as it's members.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Further to my post (no pun intended) above.

Contact was made with unite about 10 days ago upon receipt of a letter checking that the ballot (only 1 "t" in ballot) paper had been received. Due to living outside the UK, postage takes a little longer than it would to either Crawley or Glasgow. I imagine the missing ballot is due to the lack of international postage applied to the envelope as is the case with every other piece correspondence received from Unite.

Need I say more?

[TightSlot]

vsgla

banding about insults

There have been no insults - no really, I checked back. There have been (polite and patient) posts by people who take a different view of the situation to you, but no insults.

In fact, vsgla - the only source of friction on this thread to date is you: So far you've compared your managers with Nazis, complained about your fellow Cabin Crew and attacked your Pilots. You have made reasonably serious accusations against all these, and offered no factual evidence whatsoever to support your position, beyond your own subjective opinions. You've managed all of that with a writing style that is the written equivalent of throwing petrol on a Hibachi - This ignores the various capital offences committed against spelling, punctuation, grammar and historical facts.

In short vsgla - you're a nuisance, and we're going to take a 24hr break from you on this thread. Use the time to calm down, think a bit and then return minus the venom.

[vsfsm]

Just to point out, the ballott wasn't sent out by Unite it was sent out by an independant body who deal with industrial action ballotts. I found this out by contacting my union reps....

I have friends who live in Spain and Portugal who when they didn't recieve a ballott form organised for the form to be sent to me or other friends in the UK so as to ensure they got the form. I don't believe the pilots would have allowed three weeks to pass without recieveing a ballott but they are more swithched on when it comes to this kind of thing I suppose

I have to agree with VSGLA. It really isn't rocket science

[Pistol Called]

OK, the way I see it is -lets say- on a 340-600 you could have 310 pax and 15 cabin crew. Less one for the IFBT means 14. 310/14=22.1. So each CCM has 22.1 people to look after on their way to a nice layover in a nice hotel on allowances. Given that most of these 22.1 will be asleep or watching a movie for part of this trip and it may well be a lot lower than 22.1 anyway, I really don’t see the problem. It is a lifestyle job! By which I mean that CC get from the job a lifestyle that they would be very unlikely to enjoy elsewhere. Oh and the IFBT does next to nothing on a night flight as all the pax are asleep. My view is that if the UK based CC are unwilling to work properly for VAA then we should up the quota of “national” crew. Those Chinese, Japanese, Indian and Nigerian ladies are more diligent, helpful and often better company quite frankly.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

10 days ago was the 8th December. Only 5 days after the ballot (only 1 "T") opened and not an unreasonable time to allow for postage to Europe.

If any strike action is organised with the same disarray it's unlikely to have the desired effect.

As has been pointed out many, many, many times before, the increase in pay received by the pilots several years ago was wholly funded by significant efficiencies in working practices together with a 15% increase in hours flown. Unite, as directed by it’s members rejected the suggestion of any such efficiencies.

Not rocket science, I agree.

[vsfsm]

No, our members rejected the deal not the union.

[vsfsm]

Also Shanwick. The deal on the table was a whole lot of lifestyle and efficience changes for less than RPI. If the company had offered a decent value for the changes tabled then maybe that deal would have gone through. As it was they felt we should have increased our monthly stby allocation, reduced the number of crew onboard the A/C and frozen the salary of newly promoted crew for a year amongst other things and all for 2.5% and the company payrise in year 2.

If they had offered us 23% over 3 years then maybe we would have some respect for the management and wouldn't feel like they are taking the :mad:

The members rejected that not the union. I assume you would have too if you'd recieved a balloT paper.

Even in the last deal we were still being asked to give up lifestyle changes with an extra month of stby but still for only RPI. :=

[vsfsm]

EXACTLY. The members rejected it not the union. Of course they did thats how it works. We tell them what we want and they try to get it, if they cant get it a ballot goes out and the members decide. Not the union, thats why we pay our dues

[Shanwick Shanwick]

As previously posted:

"Unite, as directed by it’s members rejected the suggestion of any such efficiencies." (EFFICIENCIES with an "IES" at the end)

As directed by it's members................. Perhaps it's my pronunciation?

Pronunciation:
"The act or result of producing the sounds of speech, including articulation, stress, and intonation, often with reference to some standard of correctness or acceptability."

[Tags]

vsgla

The detrimental effect to the company was furthest from your mind as your members focused on what they felt would put you among the best paid pilots in the industry.

This is absolute rubbish. Our union briefed us via roadshows, emailed powerpoint dispalys, forum postings and paper correspondance. We knew exactly how our company was performing, both financilally and in comparison to other airlines. We were briefed on many aspects from overheads, the percentage of staff costs to overall oparating costs, labour productivity figures (ATK per $ labour costs), cost per seat km, etc etc.

We were informed what we could expect to achieve, when the union thought they'd achieved what they set out to do, and above all, if it was sustainable, and not detrimental to the company - because unlike the vast majority of cabin crew, pilots join Virgin for a career

As I have stated previously, I believe you should be paid more, but your progress needs to be slower and more progressive.

Our union were a match (and some) for the management negotiating team, because they went in 110% prepared, and with absolute member solidarity.

Your union could also achieve something close to this, if you were better prepared and all sang from the same song sheet.

Of note, prior to the 2 latest deals we struck over the last 6 or so years, our union/company council weren't so organised resulting in a split of the company council members as to whether to recommend a deal or not; needless to say the ballot returned a split vote (akin to yours) and we achieved very little.

Re-group and go back as a "UNITE"d front and get what you deserve, don't rush in and blow it for many years to come.

Oh and tell that pratt Boyd where to go, and find someone your members will have respect for.

[scoobydooo]

By shanwick Shanwick 2days to go before the ballot closes and still haven't received a paper. A call to Unite unveiled the fact that many are in the same position and would be unlikely to receive one before the 20th.

Now that's a professional union.

Resignation en-route!

Posted by Shanwick Shanwick
Further to my post (no pun intended) above.

Contact was made with unite about 10 days ago upon receipt of a letter checking that the ballot (only 1 "t" in ballot) paper had been received. Due to living outside the UK, postage takes a little longer than it would to either Crawley or Glasgow. I imagine the missing ballot is due to the lack of international postage applied to the envelope as is the case with every other piece correspondence received from Unite.

Need I say more?

Shanwick, Sorry to seem a bit slow here but yousay you have not received a ballot with 2 days to go and that you contacted unite, however looking back at all your historical posts it would appear you are a pilot in the company not cabin crew so I fail to see why you would receive a ballot or indeed be in contact with unite ? Have I missed something ?

I may be incorrect but a sample of your past posts seem to indicate this but your posts above imply you are cabin crew waiting for a ballot result, I am a little confused.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3736307#post3736307
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2128264&postcount=10
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1780502&postcount=3
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1757348#post1757348
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1757348&postcount=9
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1707217&postcount=6

Regards
Scooby

[jbflyer]

Shanwick - I don't imagine people posting comments on this forum are looking for you to correct their grammatical errors, so maybe you would consider leaving your incessant correcting out as it's patronising!

Also, Pilot pay has increased approx 51% over 5 years with a reduction in flying hours, currently 750 hours flown per year. Over and above this triggers day off payments etc. Whilst your pay neg's are indeed seperate and confidential, I would be interested to know quite how you would like an improvement to this? From my viewpoint, you are paid well, work below industry average hours and do not suffer to any great degree as a result of company mis-management (do you ever work crew down?!).

With the above in mind, why don't flight deck keep out of our neg's as they constantly keep telling us that theirs is a seperate issue and maybe consider passing up their upcoming neg's so that more money is left in the "pot" for us... or is that entirely the reason they are so keen to get us to accept what is currently being offered?!

Just my thoughts!

[vsfsm]

Thats the difference between our membership and yours. Our union held a road show event at the base and 4 people turned up :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:. I think even if we had a union that was as organized as BALPA a large percentage of crew still wouldn't bother. They just don't think they need to get involved and assume that the rest of the membership will do it all for them. Until that changes our union will always have problems and the majority of good strong members will asume the reps can't do a job for them.

How do we move forward from this viscious circle. I sometimes wish I could knock some heads together when I hear some of the things our less senior crew say down route.

If more people listened to what the union are actually saying and not to galley fm and twisted versions of events we would be a lot closer to where we need to be.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Scooby,
At no point in my posts on this thread did I mention I, Me, My or We.

Jbflyer,
Merely demonstrating the incoherence of the argument. The membership can't be taken seriously while they demonstrate such basic grammatical errors.

There has been no reduction in hours flown. Day Off Payments are not earned over and above this figure.

As a large proportion of the Pilot's pay is linked to profits, they suffer financially due to mis-management of the company.

[scoobydooo]

As for discussing the pilots review that is due, I would imagine your organised union has already engaged the company in what it is seeking on your behalf's. I also expect Balpa reps have communicated this to you - as has been said you have an efficient union which seeks your input at all stages such that it will move forward representing your collective views and aims.


However, I would also imagine any such early communications or proposals of what the pilots will be seeing would have drawn reference to the current crew negotiations with perhaps an advisory message that in the pilots best interests it would not be prudent or constructive to discuss your aims for the upcoming negotiations in order to prevent fanning any flames with our current situation.


Of course that could all be rubbish, but it is what I would advise my workforce if I was about to start negotiations whilst another department was tittering on the brink of industrial action. Hence I imagine no information about what the pilots are/were seeking will be forthcoming.

Of course the company respects the pilot workforce and will have budgeted accordingly as I expect they have some idea what the minimum is they will accept.


Lets not do the pilots and cabin crew thing, everyone has a different situation and I wish you well in your negotiations.

[scoobydooo]

Scooby,
At no point in my posts on this thread did I mention I, Me, My or We.


But that is what one infers when reading your post, it doesn't state you are talking in the 3rd party either, he, she, they i.e. 2nd hand info.
No offence

[jbflyer]

Shanwick - ones grammatical capabilities do not, or at least should not, have any bearing on how ones argument is received. We all have differing educational backgrounds and to dismiss someone's argument purely on this is small minded.

My reference on a reduction to flying hours actually came from a previous post by a pilot.

Yes, your salaries are linked to profits but very prudently lets not forget!

Can we get this thread back onto Cabin Crew Pay and leave pilots to discuss more appropriately in their own forums.

[vs_lhr]

jbflyer,

Not paying attention to the way you construct an argument (in this case, a post on an internet forum), will lead to a significant percentage of those reading it to dismiss your post regardless of the validity of the content. I'm not saying that's fair, but something to bear in mind if you want to appeal to the largest audience. An analogy would be the unreasonable demands of the typical passenger featured on 'Airline' when they've turned up late for a flight compared to the reasoned tones of an MP debating in parliament. Both may be lying through their back teeth, but the MP tends to be more convincing.

Bad grammar, spelling, or excessive use of TXT SPK (perhaps that's a generational thing), dilute the potential impact of your message. Now you don't have to turn into Wordsworth before clicking the reply button; but a little care and attention (re-reading your posts, using a spell-checker, etc), will not only ensure your point is clear, it'll convey to your audience that you have thought carefully about your words. And in an internet forum, words are all you have.

I'm not trying to patronise, by the way. I think everyone has the right to put across their argument, and everyone should be given a fair hearing. My advice is simply to help you see the importance of clarity. I, personally, failed English at school; but spell checkers are my friend.

[TightSlot]

vs_lhr

Sweetly put and absolutely accurate - tempting to make it a forum sticky for everybody - but then those who don't get the point of your post tend not to read the forum FAQ either.

:ugh:

[stansdead]

Scoobydoo
I have to bring you up on a couple of points that you made, and I quote:
"As for discussing the pilots review that is due, I would imagine your organised union has already engaged the company in what it is seeking on your behalf's. I also expect Balpa reps have communicated this to you - as has been said you have an efficient union which seeks your input at all stages such that it will move forward representing your collective views and aims." Not true, it just has not happened

"However, I would also imagine any such early communications or proposals of what the pilots will be seeing would have drawn reference to the current crew negotiations with perhaps an advisory message that in the pilots best interests it would not be prudent or constructive to discuss your aims for the upcoming negotiations in order to prevent fanning any flames with our current situation." Not true again

"Of course that could all be rubbish" More than likely

Well, of the 3 above statements, can anyone see which is the only one which is near the truth? Sadly, it is the 3rd one.

This in my opinion is partly what is at fault with your arguments as a whole cabin crew force.

It's all based on " I heard this", "Bloggs says that". Very little facts, loads of conjecture and gossip.

[scoobydooo]

stansdead,

I am genuinely surprised by that. I would of expected your union to have canvassed your collective workforce on what you are seeking in your upcoming paydeal such that your views can be adequately represented. The reason for that expectation, - because you have all told us how well your union communicate with you and this is what they do, Perhaps they just haven't got round to it yet or maybe they don't need to as they have already agreed in principle without your input !!??

My post above was based on what I would of expected from your fantastic union having read how organised it is etc etc, and what I would personally expect to be communicated to a work force about to start negotiations when as mentioned another department is at this crucial point.

Again it was my thoughts and what I would expect, and I made that clear in my last para to ensure no one knew it was me saying IT HAD HAPPENED. hence each para starting "I would imagine", perhpas you could bold those bits too.

You still seem like Mr Angry from angryville though ;) regardless, good luck in your upcoming talks hope you get what you as a collective want without having to give up lifestyle conditions.

Tomorrows the big day !!

[stansdead]

scooby

I'm not angry. I just feel that speculation and gossip are NOT good starting points for strike action.

The misinformation that some cabin crew have about pretty much everything surrounding this dispute is staggering.

And that is why the whole situation is so sad. A properly organised and galvanised union would, in 16 months time (next pay deal) be able to demand far more respect. And probably more money too.

As you say, tomorrow is the final day of the ballot. I hope that as many people as possible vote, in order to ensure a representative result. For the cabin crew and everyone else involved in Virgin.

One way or another, we are in this together.:sad:

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Would HAVE expected.

Sorry, just had to..........

Ballot arrived this morning. Ticked NO and will be posted in the UK today. Unlikely to arrive before close of play tomorrow though.

[Digitalis]

jbflyer there has not been any reduction in pilot flying hours contracted in the last 10 years. In fact, it has increased from 650 to 750 hours - though that was a very long time ago. What has happened is that rostering and utilisation of pilots has changed to increase the average hours flown (ie productivity) by some 25%, and much closer to that 750-hour contractural limit. In addition, many of the extra payments that CC still enjoy were withdrawn from pilots and added to the basic salary pot. At no point have the pilots threatened or ballotted for industrial action.

Scooby and Stansdead there is an ongoing conversation between BALPA and the pilots about what changes pilots would like to see in their terms and conditions. That conversation is held via the BALPA website forums, in which intelligent, calm and rational discussions occur covering all aspects of the pilots' lot, and the Company in general. So, yes, research and opinion-collecting goes on all the time. Pilots' expectations of pay negotiations are well-informed by factual research into the Company itself, the industry and the wider economy, which is gathered both by individuals and the Union, and presented clearly and unambiguously to the Union membership - and is not fed by gossip! That way, pilots will not be led to believe that there is a chance of a large pay rise when there patently is not! In any case, the pilots are now more or less where they feel they should be in relation to the industry pay norms, and that is why future negotiations will concentrate on lifestyle issues (rostering etc).

Unite has failed spectacularly to inform its membership, gather their opinions, and guide their expectations realistically. It has no clear idea what it expects to achieve by industrial action, and seems not to have adequately informed its membership about the risks of such action at a time when the entire airline industry is facing a major economic downturn, and when the Company itself is already well short of its earning potential. In other words, the timing is bad and you don't collectively know what you're trying to achieve, therefore the action is highly likely to fail. Possibly disastrously.

[Litebulbs]

"Lifestyle" changes to pilots terms and conditions will still come at a cost. If you believe the VS management team that there is no more money in the pot, then these lifestyle changes will not happen. If they are no cost items, then why wait for a pay claim?

So what the pilot community should then do, is regroup and then wait for 09 or 10.

Or not!

[stansdead]

Digitalis

As a BALPA member, I am well aware of our website and I am well aware of the fact that some pilots have put "wishlist" ideas to our CC via that facility.

However, that is NOT what scoobydoo was referring to. At no point have we been told by our CC what they are going to negotiate with management over. Nor have negotiations begun yet.

Please don't give scooby more to speculate with. The fact are exactly as I said they were.:)

[vsfsm]

I think SCOOBY is still forgeting that Unite proposed an acceptance of the last deal in order to regroup for the next set of talks in 9 months time. They did this by several letters to all members addresses and several posts on the Unite web site. Also all reps were taken of flying rosters for a month(like it or not)to attend all crew rooms. Between 13 reps they made sure that there were at least 2 reps at LHR between 7am and 7pm every day of the month. There was also atleast 1 rep at LGW every day of the month and a rep attended MAN for a week untill all MAN crew had been advised.The base was also covered.

You seem to have some problem understanding the effort our reps make. I believe that comes down to an attitude that is saddly prevelent in the pilot community that says all things cabin crew will always be inferior to all things pilot. Its a prehistoric attitude but none the less it is still there and until it is gone completely there will always be a devide. You will never fully understand what is or isn't important to cabin crew and so you will never understand how our union negotiates.

Also, as long as large elements of your pay are based on profit cabin crew will always find it hard to believe that your advise comes from the heart and not the pocket.

[In The Pink]

If the current ballot is a no and the Pilots then go after an RPI plus lifestyle "enhancements" deal...Virgin thinks it has Cabin Crew problems now.....

[stansdead]

In the Pink

If you vote NO to a strike, then you accept the money and enter into negotiations with VS again in 2009.

If you vote YES to strike, then it's up to either the cabin crew or VS to negotiate again and SOON, or to wait for one or the other to blink during a strike. The company are well aware of the fact that the cabin crew are peeved currently.

Either way, it's nothing to do with Pilot pay negotiations.

[BostonBill]

In reading VSFSMs post, it is clear that the union reps did their best to promote and publicise the sanctioned deal to cabin crew. The company also tried its best to learn the expectations of the crew both through the union and through iFly.

The problem is not so much in promotion of the deal, it is in managing how it is received, interpreted and understood. GalleyFM is the tool by which many of the crew base their understanding of how the company works. Where galleyFM is fuelled with inaccurate rumours (such as the one on cabincrew.com about CPMs getting a 7% payrise!!!!) then this can only be detrimental to the whole campaign regardless of which side of the fence you are sitting.

Text messaging, forums, galleyFM, rumour, fact and fiction have all been added together and confusion abounds. The results of the ballot will no doubt have a significant effect on the future of the airline either way.

How can we all work together to ensure that accurate information is spread consistently and openly next time, so that the negotiations and proposed solutions are given fair consideration? Suggestions on a postcard please....

[SLT]

This thread has been a very interesting read, and I have to say that some of my opinions have been confirmed while others have been altered by what's been said here - from both sides. Which is a good thing. I haven't posted my own thoughts here because in general they've been so eloquently put forward by Kasual Observer, Tags, Digitalis and others....

However, the last couple of paragraphs from vsfsm can't really be allowed to slip by.....

I don't think anyone here is in any doubt as to the effort that the cabin crew reps have made. Being a union rep is virtually a full time job in and of itself - I know how hard our own BALPA guys work on our behalf and we are all heartily thankful to them for that.

However - your assertion that there is a perception within the pilot community that all things crew will forever be inferior to all things pilot is so wide of the mark it's untrue. If that's what you really think then sadly you haven't understood us at all..... Flying is a team sport - always has been and always will be. The pilots at Virgin have given the crew their support, their advice when asked for it, and have stood right behind you up to this point. All we are hoping to achieve by these discussions is make sure that as many crew as possible make an informed decision based on fact, not the endless run of drivel that is Galley FM. You as crew have to make your own decision based on what you really believe, with all the facts to hand and having examined the pros and the cons. Informed debate - that's all we're trying to achieve.....

You will never fully understand what is or isn't important to cabin crew and so you will never understand how our union negotiates.


If you feel we don't understand what's important to you guys then inform us! From conversations I've had, very few people seem to know what they want out of this. A few have a clear picture of what's acceptable but I'd say over 90% of the crew I've spoken to have no idea of what would make the pay deal acceptable for them. Galley FM adds to the confusion with absolute rubbish being reported as "fact" and then no one's any idea which way to go. And as for "the way your union negotiates", it may sound a little harsh to say, but if how they've negotiated this shambles is how "they do it" then they don't seem to be very sure themselves, and I'm certainly glad they don't represent us.... That's something I certainly hope will be addressed by the members once a solution is reached to the current situation. It's plain that Unite have not served you well....

Also, as long as large elements of your pay are based on profit cabin crew will always find it hard to believe that your advise comes from the heart and not the pocket.

That's not a belief I've even heard put forward before. I'm sorry if that's what you believe but as has been said before - we're all in this together. Company does well - we all do well, do badly - we all do badly. Anyway - what profit????

I hope everyone uses their vote in whichever direction they believe is best. Merry Christmas everyone!!! :)

[vsfsm]

Sorry SLT

I guess i meant that this attitude of everything cabin crew is inferior is not prevelent but none the less does exist and can be felt on occasion.

I stand by my comment about never being able to fully understanding what is important to cabin crew is correct, as i'm sure you'll agree a crew member will never fully understand what is important to a pilot.
You never know a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes an all that sort of thing.
Stories of pilots ordering their own more expensive wine at crew meals but then expecting to split the bill don't help amongst other things.

I am aware that we have a good relationship between crew and pilot at this company but there will always be some kind of divide when one group is earning £100k + and others are earning £10-12k. I hope that changes but deep down it is still there to an extent.

[Litebulbs]

Hi VSFSM
I thing a quick spelling edit may be required, before the grammar police start flaming!

[vsfsm]

I get a bit carried away sometimes.

[Digitalis]

Stansdead I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you weren't in grasp of the facts, I was simply trying to explain that, even though no formal negotiations are in place or imminent, the pilot workforce and BALPA are constantly in public discussion about the wants, needs and desires of the pilots, and that thus any preparations for negotiation are already well-informed. There seems to be no comparable dialogue between the CC and their Union, which has hampered the Union's efforts to relay its membership's feelings to the Company. That needs addressing well before any future negotiations.

vsfm As I said in an earlier post, this is not a dispute between the pilots and the CC. Far from it; many of our number have CC partners and are getting this almost at first hand. We also spend much time trying to explain the various deals and ramifications of those deals, particularly to the younger, less knowledgable CC. From these discussions, it seems that your Union reps have been giving conflicting advice; indeed, it would seem that some have been openly in disagreement with the Union, which is hardly helpful for the membership - the time for disagreement is behind closed doors. Once a Union policy has been agreed, all the reps should publicly back and follow that policy. That seems not to have happened.

As for part of our pay being profit-related, that is true. But so is yours - all of it!

[vs_lhr]

Litebulbs, there's really no need for the sarcasm. My advice regarding well constructed posts was offered in good faith.

[SLT]

Hi vsfsm
Apology accepted! :} I take your point about not wholly understanding the individual importance of certain issues - 'twas ever thus but I think we're getting there! As you say - we do have a good relationship between pilots and crew in our company and long may that continue and continue to improve! It's only through talking to each other we can gain a greater understanding of each other's viewpoint. And more importantly - we can gain a greater sense of teamwork not just in our daily duties, but also for when we need to stand together as a workforce.... The incidents that drive us apart eg. wine at the dinner table are mercifully few and far between and I think we all long for the day when they are a dim and distant memory.... Let's not let a few bad apples spoil a rather nice barrel.... :)

Anyway - back to the thread!!! Good luck everyone in whatever direction you decide to take...... I'll get back in my box now!!

[scoobydooo]

I think it was a joke vslhr, come on now, everyone's getting uptight - it's nearly Christmas :) We all work together, we all want what we believe we deserve, we all have differing views on how this can be achieved and no one view will ever be the correct view, that's what makes for great discussion, fact & a bit of speculation on a rumour network :ok: occasionally add a bit of passion and it gets heated now and then and mod comes in with a bucket of cold water. :D

Looking fwd to the result, hope a lot of ballots were returned, and whatever the outcome I have enjoyed engaging with all concerned.

[Litebulbs]

Hmm, I do like a bit of moderation! Banned for a day. Ho Hum, well what can you do.

My bet is 4.6% and no strings. Compromise on both sides.

[vsfsm]

Her we go here we go here we go


I'm predicting 58% of the returned ballots in favour of action.

I still think there will be about 5 or 600 non returned ballots but i'm coming to grips with the nature of our comunity and the fact that a lot of them really can't be :mad:ed

Good luck everyone, including VS i suppose. Whatever happens, happens.

[Justanotherpax]

I'm hoping your wish of good luck extends to us customers with bookings in early January! What with this and the threatened BAA strike, our one little getaway of the year is looking doomed.:sad:

I fully appreciate your position, and your need to stand up for yourselves, I hope you guys can work something out with management.

I'm looking forward to being taken care of by some of you very soon, you do a great job :D and rest assured it REALLY IS appreciated by the vast majority of your customers. (And yes, I am one of the ones that says thankyou on the way off!):ok:

I also hope the union acts in your best interest, and isn't just in this for the fight......

[tablelover]

Breaking news on Sky 2 48hr strikes in the new year.

[maggioneato]

Any dates yet for the 2 X48 hour strikes.

[back2front]

Union members among Virgin Atlantic cabin crew will strike twice in the new year after they voted in favour of industrial action. The strikes will run for 48 hours each, starting at 0600 on Wednesday 9 January and from 0600 on Friday 18 January.
Unite union members say Virgin crews are underpaid compared with their counterparts at other airlines.
They voted 71% in favour of taking the first industrial action in the airline's history.

[In The Pink]

Confirmed on Sky News Ticker....48 hours strikes in the New Year.....No dates given.

[Captb747]

Two 48 hour strikes 9th January and 18th January for 48 hours. Best of luck............Think your gonna need it

[sinala1]

Anyone know the number of votes returned? 71% is a fair response, although not overwhelming - but it does depend on the % of crew who returned their ballots as to how much of a statement the 71% makes...

Good Luck folks, here's hoping for a positive outcome... :ok:

[vsfsm]

amicustheunion.org

[vsfsm]

Unite national officer,

Virgin Atlantic's cabin crew have voted for strike action for the first time in the airlines history. They've not taken this decision lightly, they are a world class crew who've been undervalued for too long. They are seeking a long term solution to pay which recognises their loyalty and professionalism.
“Unite is calling on Virgin Atlantic to get back around the negotiating table to get through this impasse and avoid disruption in the New Year.”
All Virgin cabin crew unite members should now go to our CAT Sector/Virgin Atlantic page, and ensure that they read the " Call for Action Notice", and the associated "letter to members". This provides important information to all our Virgin Atlantic Cabin Crew Membership".
-Ends-

[Kasual Observer]

Ah, now we see the kind of support they have really received. 71% of union members who voted are in favour of strike action. What they don't mention is that those who voted for strike action represent just 30% of all the Cabin Crew at Virgin Atlantic.

The union balloted 3,100 workers of whom 2,102 voted, with 1,497 voting in favour of strike action.

Good luck because you are going to need it with those kinds of numbers. As expected, the majority will have been led into this because of the apathy of the CC workforce not being bothered to use their votes.

70% of the Virgin Atlantic Cabin Crew workforce have either voted against a strike or not expressed any opinion. It'll be interesting to see the picket lines on those dates. Especially the 18th, a Friday.

[In The Pink]

and still they bury their heads in the sand