The Virgin Strike Thread (Merged)

[G-UNIT]

Makes me sick!

If you don't like the terms on offer then leave....simple as that. From what I hear Virgin are hardly short of people applying for trolly dolly jobs? Why should Virgin pay more than the market deems necessary?

[stansdead]

Kasual Observer

What if it were cold and wet as well? Good job we live in such tropical climes. That should ensure a big turn out of pickets.

Sad news, but there we go. At least we now know the complete apathy and lack of interest in this whole debacle.

That's my last comment on this subject. Good luck to everyone. Remember that be you Cabin Crew, Pilot, engineer, cleaner, manager or whatever, we are in this mess together by default.

Happy Christmas and hopefully a less provocative New Year to one and all.

[vsfsm]

Unite has over 3200 members. Regardless of how many didn't return a ballot all members now have the right to strike and i'll be willing to bet that most of the members will take the oppertunity to strike.

Most of the members who did not vote either did not recieve a ballot or didn't vote because they though it would be detrimental to their job to vote in favour of industrial action. The decision has been made for them and now they can be assured that they can take action.

The company must step in to try to come to some agreement asap.

[back2front]

I've flown with a lot of crew recently who didn't receive their ballot paper. Disappointing they didn't bother to call the union and ask for one to be sent out though.

Also, a lot of crew were concerned that the ballot papers had serial numbers written on them. Many crew commented they were worried that this could lead to their ballot paper being traced back to them.

Good result though. We now need to get onto the union and tell them what we want.

*increase in basic
*increase in trip pay £18 per sector is a joke (to be in line with other airlines)
*long range allowance - similiar to BA box payments for long flights
*stand down time after trips the same as BA (would also help with high hours problem)
*no extra standby
*General problems such as waiting 45 mins in cold stairs of airbridge for bus back to LHR check in area. Allowances reduced as an when the company wants. Waiting for hotel rooms for 3hr in some cases.
*Some system of bidding for LHR or LGW trips would be nice
*Part time available for everyone. I'm sure its discrimination to only offer P/T to females with kids. What about guys? or females or aren't able to have children?
*Abiding by European law of a 20min rest break after 6hrs duty (this would be from check in time). If we don't get crew rest then after 6hrs we are legally entitled to a 20min break away from customers. I've worked for other airlines that abided by this law and its easy to do. You just have to modify the service sometimes.

If I was taking home £1200 into my bank account each month I would be happy, allowances on top. The current situation of less than £900 basic is not substainable.

[vsfsm]

G-UNIT

They are paying less than the market dictates

Thats the whole point. You obviously haven't listened to what the crew and unite have been saying all along.

They want parity with our cometitors. Why shouldn't they?

[vsfsm]

Just to re-itterate

All Unite members now have the right to go on strike regardless of how you voted. Now is the time for action we must all stand together and show the industry that we will not stand for these conditions any longer.

Lets get out and inform all members that we must get behind this and show the company that we will not stand being messed around any longer.

We can all take action regardless of how the company try to spin this.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[G-UNIT]

vsfsm,

But they are hardly short of people willing to work for the amounts they pay? Otherwise how would you explain the number of applicants for each cabin crew post?

[vsfsm]

That is true G-UNIT but they can't replace the experience of the people who are in more senior positions already and it is these people who voted no and these peple who are willing to walk out the door.

The return in favour from the ballot may only be 30 or 40% of the total number of crew but that number includes mostly all the senior crew who are the ones who are D-FIB trained.

Not to forget all the crew who will take advantage of the strike just to get out of certain trips. It's sad but there are a lot of crew who will do this. Add this to the amount of crew who where too scared to vote in favour of action but who will now realise that the decision is done so they may aswell.

The company will not run when these people walk out the door.

30 or 40% will become 70 or 80%

Would you want to risk that?

[Digitalis]

Sadly, it seems that a minority of CC have achieved a vote to stop the airline working. I very much hope that the Company and the Union can find a way to get back to the negotiating table before any action takes place, so that the impact on the Company - and all of its employees - is minimised.

I think you've done the wrong thing, but I wish you all - and all of us - luck this Christmas.

[The Moo]

Good luck Guys, Stand firm and don't get sold down the river like we did at BA. You are really underpaid ( I think you have the lowest cabin crew pay in the UK) But you are the most glam. You deserve more.

[Fournier Boy]

Congratluations one and all! You've successfully alienated yourselves from your fellow colleagues, destroyed many passengers hopes of a New Year trip away, and caused chaos for those now involved trying to assure our passengers. Worst still you generally still believe in the mis-informed guidance from those that believe the company will now give you more money.

Moreover, I am appauled at those that couldn't be bothered to vote.

I can't believe the stupidity showed by a group of people I once admired - such a shame.

[glamourgirl!]

We should also get hardship payment for kingston. $61 is a joke!! Its a really hard going flight. with deportee's being dragged down the isles kicking and screaming.Wanting to cause as much disruption as possible. I certainly wont be doing 1 again.

Its a sad day for our wonderful airline and I am disgraced by the management and feel really let down that they have let it get to this stage.

Come on guys its time to stick together no matter what dosh they offer you to work on those days. Ive got a feeling they are going to try and break us. We have to think of our future.

Oh can i just put another 2pence worth in. I cant take any more of this monthly standby ****! get rid of them ive done 3 in 18months. it was meant to be 4 in 3 years. wot a load of old ****. moan over.

[back2front]

G-UNIT - there may be plenty of people willing to do the job but how long will they do it for when they realise they are getting peanuts?

Attrition is high at VS and must cost millions. Its costs around £20k to hire, train a new crew member. This money would be better spent on retaining existing staff who genuinelly would love to stay at Virgin but unfortunately can't afford to.

[vsfsm]

GLAMOURGIRL & BACK2FRONT

You sound like you understand the situation. Its so important now to boulster our colleagues and assure them that they can now take action regardless of how they voted.
I believe a lot of crew either didn't vote or voted no because they were too worried that the company would find out who they are.They need to be assured that it is safe to walk out the door now on the 9th and 16th of Jan.

If you have e-mail addresses or Phone numbers of your colleagues or if you are using other networks like cabincrew.com please get out there and let them know by e-mail text or whatever means you can.

We can't let this opportunity slip now. We've come too far.

Cheers

[red_eye_rat]

Also, a lot of crew were concerned that the ballot papers had serial numbers written on them. Many crew commented they were worried that this could lead to their ballot paper being traced back to them.

Oh, you mean the numbers that are there to prevent fraudulent misuse of official voting papers. Nice to see that people have faith in the organisation that's leading them into this strike. What did they think the union was going to do, send the confidential votes to Virgin who were going to sack all those who voted for a strike.
Do these people REALLY understand what they are getting involved in. I despair when I read things like that.

[Justanotherpax]

Oh dear :(

I'm just one customer, so what does my opinion matter in the grand scheme of things? But here goes.

I'm booked on a flight on Jan 11th, so if the first strike goes ahead then I'd guess the knock on disruption would mean i'm pretty much stuffed.

From a purely selfish point of view, it's very disappointing. We only get one chance a year to get a holiday, there's no way I can reroute or reschedule, so that's that.

But hey, I'm just one customer. Compared to the cc union members that voted to strike, I'm nothing. I hope you get the deal you're after :D, especially as it'll cost me personally.

Just thought I'd post that for you guys to ponder, as there doesn't seem to be too many references to how this will affect the customer on this thread.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Its costs around £20k to hire, train a new crew member

A pilot, yes. Do you really think it costs 400,000 to train a course of 20 Cabin Crew?

[vs_lhr]

I am disappointed in the amount of jubilation that it has gone to a strike.

Repeat after me.

There will be no eleventh hour offer.
There will be no eleventh hour offer.
There will be no eleventh hour offer.
There will be no eleventh hour offer.

And glamourgirl, it is not a disgrace that the management let it go this far. It is a disgrace that the cabin crew let it go this far. They are the one who voted, and the only ones that directly influence that process. The company met what the thought were the union demands at every stage, but the crew didn't know what they wanted.

I am very disappointed with this outcome, but I'm pretty sure with only 30% of the crew actively supporting a strike, the company will get through. However, you've kissed goodbye to the 4.8& and alienated the rest of the company. A good result, eh?

[Virgin89]

Glamour Girl, that means that you only now have one month left to and you won't have any SBY's for 2-years. How's that for roster stability?

You clearly have no idea about the SBY agreement. It was agreed that 4 blocks in 3 years was the max. That is what you are doing.

Not sure how long you've been as VS but having been here for 19-years and well remember the 4 blocks each month, which caused disruption every month of the year on my roster, I welcome monthly SBY.

The huge problem that VS has is many crew on here don't remember how it used to be and trust me it wasn't as rosey as people make out. It was good and we got on with it, however things have changed for the better over the years.

You clearly are one of those people who didn't operate the old system. Be careful for what you wish for as they may just bring back the old SBY system.

[back2front]

Shanwick Shanwick (aka middle management)

I think you will find its costs a LOT more that £20k to train a pilot. The £20k figure comes straight from the mouth of the trainers at the base. I'm sure its a round about correct figure when you take into account the whole cost of training i.e. cost of running the base etc.

[Justanotherpax]

I agree vs_lhr, one poster in particular seems to be taking great pleasure in this result.

Almost as if the strike itself is the victory they really sought, rather than an acceptable pay offer......

[back2front]

virgin 89 - I agree the monthly standby system is MUCH better but we should not have to do another month of standby. If VS could hold onto crew they would have enough people to cover the flying program!

[vsfsm]

Red eye

Yes there are some crew who worry about these things and vote accordingly. That doesn't mean they should feel intimidated by the company. So, regardless of your thoughts on these individuals they still need to know that they can now take industrial action legally. If they are aware of that then they can make an informed decision. Who do you think starts rumours like "numbers being traced" in the first place? It's definately not the union is it?
I know who I blame

Justanotherpax

Sorry if you incurr any cost and disruption, I genuinely do feel for you and others in your position.

It has now come to a time where the cabin crew need to think about themselves instead of everyone else around them.
This company has had ample time to stop things getting to this stage and have done nothing!!
This shows me and other crew that they genuinely do under value us as a key work force and we have been taken for granted for too long now.
As a passenger you probably didn't feel any less looked after on your journeys, this is because our crew remained professional at all times throughout.We have conducted ourselves with dignity as the company tried to undermine the crews right to vote freely by offering back dated pay and RPI rises to secure a no vote to industrila action.

Our community have remained dignified and signalled to the company that they will not accept this anymore.

It is time that you and other passengers and the public start to look to Virgin Atlantic and Its BILLIONAIRE owners for the answers as to why we are at this stage now and who's fault this is.

It's our turn now.

[back2front]

well said vsfm :D:D:D:D:D

[red_eye_rat]

I dont think anyone starts these rumours. I think it's a lack of understanding of a process. I dont blame anyone except those whose ignorance would lead to them not casting a vote on such an important issue.

[Justanotherpax]

vsfsm

I appreciate your apology, and I take your point about the professionalism of cc. Virgin cabin crew have a unique brand of service which they should be proud of.

But speaking as nothing more than a customer, you do seem to have a 'tub-thumping' approach to your posts which comes across like you're enjoying this a bit too much. Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn here, but I just find it a little unsavoury.

[back2front]

Justanotherpax- I don't think any crew member wants to disrupt customers flights. We know you have to save to go on holiday and what an upset it would be to have a holiday affected.

Maybe vsfsm is just one of the many crew who are absolutely sick of the lies, spin etc sprouted by management and actually hope they have know realised the crew are really fed up of the pay situation and must sort it out.

Time to invest in the people.

[Justanotherpax]

back2front - I didn't intend to say that vsfsm, or anyone for that matter, wants to disrupt customer flights. I hope that wasn't how I came across.

I'm just politely airing the sentiments of a typical customer that will be affected by this strike, which hasn't appeared too often on this thread.

If I've offended anyone in doing so then I apologise, it really wasn't my intention.

[vsfsm]

Justanotherpax

I appreciate the point you make about how I may come across on this thread.
I have to say though, my opinion and the way I voice it on here is very like the oppinion of a vast majority of the crew only i'm not worried about any repercussions that other crew believe there may be for voicing your view too loudly.
So don't take too much exeption to my opinion as you'll find that it's an opinion shared by a lot of crew it's just that you have never heard it before because our crew have remained professional and dignified for longer.
I wont lie, I am happy that my colleagues have taken a stand at this stage but I like all of my colleagues felt they could no longer accept being taken for granted and if the company want to push it to this stage then we must show them that we will not back down.

[Justanotherpax]

vsfsm

Fair point well made, I appreciate your response.

[vs_lhr]

"I have to say though, my opinion and the way I voice it on here is very like the oppinion of a vast majority of the crew"

I think you'll find 30% is a minority.

[Captb747]

Good result though. We now need to get onto the union and tell them what we want.


Er, should this not have been done before all this mess started.......:confused:

[vsfsm]

vs lhr

If you step out of your office or flight deck to look around this company you'll find that the majority of our crew are extremely :mad:ed off. And if you took the time to sit down personaly with the crew to ask them how they feel you will start to realise that it is infact the majority of our crew who feel this way.

Take that 30% you mention and add to it the other 30% who didn't feel confident enought to return the form or who didnt recieve or return a form due to postal issues, now add it to the % of crew who voted no but will not cross a picket line and however you look at it this is formidable.

Come on vs lhr, your bosses will be thinking it. Don't wait for them to tell you to think it.

The ball is in Virgins court.

[spacecadet]

To everybody who thinks that only 1497 union members expressing their intention to strike isn't enough, you are very wrong.

We are hearing that there are countless training classes being run to get office based staff up to speed & therefore able to undertake flying duties.

A company that has that much leeway to allow staff to leave their ground based duties is clearly in need of re-structuring.

I don't believe Virgin mismanagement thought that the Cabin Crew would vote for strike action!

[Armed&Crosschecked]

Unbelievable!!! I have sat here over the last few weeks and read the posts mainly open mouthed at some of the comments that have been made pro Strike....
There does seem to be a few individuals who appeared quite militant and may I say gleeful at the prospect of a strike and now must be rubbing their hands at the outcome.
What they also seem to be doing is have an answer for everything!!!!
It may well be that 40% of the union did not return their papers because they didn't know which way to go, it could be that they thought it might never happen and that a vote to strike would not go ahead ( foolish if that's the case, because had they been teetering on a Yes to the Pay deal, we may not be in this position now).
Now we have a very uncertain future and this surely is the end of Virgin as we know it. Virgin is not a big company like BA and does not have the resources to deal with big financial losses that are sure to be incurred with the strike. Sometimes I think we mistake our strong brand image with a huge company (we only have a total flying crew of less than 5000 - BA have easily double that at LHR alone!!!) and think we can ride situations like this out.
Those that have wished for this strike may have shown the company that you mean business, but to what cost?
Passenger perception will have certainly changed and regardless of the conditions you feel you have to put up with, passengers will not be so forgiving.
Dark times are ahead I'm sure, with lots of whispering and furtive looks as to who did vote, who didn't vote; but one thing 's for sure... Virgin will never be the same.

[Hand Solo]

It's not my company here but people would do well to remember that 96% of BA cabin crew voted for a strike. Far fewer than that believed that they would actually have to go on strike and when the big day loomed the number who voted yes but were actually either going to work or call in sick became quite apparent. In the end they walked away with some nil cost face savers for the union, lots of talk about 'respect' from the management and nothing else. Just because a ballot has returned a yes vote (and to an impartial observer a 70% vote on a 30% return looks like a somewhat weak mandate) doesn't mean that a desirable outcome will result. It's just the first step in a long process.

[vsfsm]

I think it's important now and I feel compelled to give a massive thankyou to our union reps who inspite of their own feelings on the progress of this situation, have now delivered on what the majority of our members wanted. God knows we didn't think they could.

We are lucky to have union representation at all, and there are still departments who have no representation whatsoever. So we should now get completely behind our reps and hopefully they can now meet with the company and get this mess sorted in the knowledge that they have our full backing.

Remember. The union are only as strong as it's members and now is the time to show how strong we can be regardless of how you voted.

This is primarily a pay issue but we can now get all the other issues out there sorted like :

Crew down
Withheld trip payments
Withheld working up payments
Car park passes
Deteriorating hotel quality
Pensionable elements of pay
Promotion
Rostering issues
The deterioration of the general management of our department

and many many more issues that I'm sure our crew are aware of.

Lets really get tp a point where this a company where people love to work.

[vsfsm]

ARMEDANDCROSSCHECKED

If BA where being payed in the same way Virgin crew are make no mistake!! They would have walked out the door.


HANDSOLO

The return figures are high in relation to traditional returns of this nature so don't fool yourself into believing that there isn't enough strength here.

The company will only go down the tubes it the company lets it.

Take your company hat off and look at it from a crew perspective for a minute if you can. Then you will see that the company could have and should now deal with the shortfall and let us get on with making this a great place to work where you are rewarded for making the successful company and brand that it is.

[vs_lhr]

If you step out of your office or flight deck to look around this company you'll find that the majority of our crew are extremely :mad:ed off. And if you took the time to sit down personaly with the crew to ask them how they feel you will start to realise that it is infact the majority of our crew who feel this way.

Take that 30% you mention and add to it the other 30% who didn't feel confident enought to return the form or who didnt recieve or return a form due to postal issues, now add it to the % of crew who voted no but will not cross a picket line and however you look at it this is formidable.

I prefer facts rather than assumption. The numbers don't lie; it's a minority of the cabin crew than forced the strike view. If another 30% are a :mad:ed off as you say, they would have voted. They didn't vote, so you can't make any assumptions about how they feel.

Your assertion seems to be that 30% voted yes to strike; 30% wanted to vote yes to strike, and everyone else won't cross a picket line.

How about a scenario where 30% voted yes to strike, and of those a large chunk will be crushed by the company when they realise a strike is really going to happen; they're not going to be paid; there is no further offer and the company has enough staff actually working to ensure minimal disruption. Meanwhile, you no longer have a 4.8% offer and you've lost a lot of money standing around in the snow with a placard while the passengers glare at you for ruining the holiday they've saved up all year for.

Now, my scenario is all conjecture, but as plausible as yours. However, when has anyone let facts get in the way, eh?

[thebigcheese]

I HAVE SAT QUIETLY READING WITH INTEREST THIS POST FOR SOME TIME NOW AND NOW FULLY CONCUR WITH VS FSM.
I AM A CSS AND HAVE BEEN EMPLOYED BY VIRGIN FOR 7 YEARS NOW AND ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.:ugh:
I BEG ALL PEOPLE WHOM HAVE THE POWER TO UTILISE THIER STRIKE ACTION TO USE IT AND USE IT WISELY AND STAND STRONG ON THE PICKET LINE AND LET OUR EMPLOYERS KNOW WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH.
HOW CAN MY OTHER HALF WHO WORKS WITH B.A EARN £7622 MORE THAN ME LAST YEAR ( NOT INCLUDING ALLOWANCES ) AND YET NOT EVEN BE A PURSER AND HAVE ONLY 4.5 YEARS FLYING EXPERIENCE.
NOW PEOPLE MIGHT JUMP DOWN MY THROAT AND TELL ME TO GO WORK FOR B.A.......BUT NO.... WHY GIVE UP 7 YEARS HARD AND DEVOTED WORK FOR NOTHING....SOLIDARITY MY FRIENDS AND ENCOURAGE YOUR COLLEAGUES TO FOLLOW SUIT......:D:D

[vsfsm]

vs lhr

You point out that the 4.8% deal is no longer on the table. A move the company had no choice in taking. That move however will force more crew to take action, a number of people voted no because they believed that if the did they would recieve a pay rise.. this is no longer the case as you point out.

Thankyou Virgin, you are making the choice easier for the ones who weren't so sure.

You must know that the crew are :mad:ed off, if you don't then I can only assume that you are from a department not directly connected to the every day running of a flight.

Don't delude yourself any longer. This is no longer the happy family you believe it is. The company operates like any large business but hopes that they can still capture the "we'd do anything for this company" thing. Not anymore

[Armed&Crosschecked]

vsfsm
"If BA where being payed in the same way Virgin crew are make no mistake!! They would have walked out the door."

And unfortunatley you choose not to, but instead seem intent on bringing this company down to its knees.
Judging by your Tag name, I assume you're an FSM. I wonder how often you put your opinions to the crew on your flights (based on how vociferous you have been on this thread). Must be lovely flying with a manager who's supposed to do what a manager does... encourage, motivate, lead by example....?!!!
As for your belief that there was a "majority" of crew that voted to strike, when you deduct the 40% that didn't vote, that "majority" is very minor indeed!!! (but enough to cause untold damage).
What do you believe will be the future of Virgin now? Do you think after any cuts that have to be made to ride this mess out, that the company will be in any better position to offer more in the future, or was that a risk that you and a minority of others were wiling to take.
It all seems like a game of Russian Roulette to some...

[vsfsm]

Well armedandcrosschecked

As an FSM who enjoys particulary high performance scores(another issue) in all behaviours, I can only assume that I'm doing the job over and above the standards set by the company.

Pay negotiations are not a feature of my briefings or onboard my flights ,but in my position I am able to get a broad spectrum of feeling throughout my comunity and am fortunately able to express those feelings on forums like this.

Do what some staff with your opinion inc. higher management say. If you don't like it, leave.

Do you really believe that the majority of crew are happy to work as hard as they do, whilst knowing that other crew in other airlines with half the commitment they have are being payed up to 10k per year more.

Be honest now, answer this without your head in virgin land where everything is rosey and everyone thinks we should continue to do whatever it takes for no reward.

[vs_lhr]

vsfsm,

You really must stop talking for the "majority". State your position and let others make up their own mind.

For the record, I believe crew do deserve a better deal in line with the industry average. However, I don't believe that it can be achieved so quickly and I certainly don't think strikes are the way to achieve it.

As far as I can tell, the company are playing hardball and because it's only 30% voting for the strike, they are probably confident they can get through the industrial action with minimum disruption. So crew are left with no decent offer, out of pocket and achieving nothing. The knock-on effects of the damage caused to the brand because of the strike means less business, and less business means withdrawal of some routes (just like post 9/11), and less routes means redundancies.

All this because a minority of crew were too impatient to take a leaf from the pilots negotiations and do it a step at a time. And I don't think the union are blameless either, as they clearly didn't know what they were asking for, meaning the strike ballot was a car crash just waiting to happen.

[thebigcheese]

armedandcrosschecked, your technically wrong with your synopsis of fsm duties... ask the c.a.a. fsm sole responsibility is safety and security in the cabin..... this is what the crew are not getting paid the industry average for...:=any thoughts

[Armed&Crosschecked]

vsfsm

Firstly, thanks for responding to my thread, even though you evaded the questions posed... lol
Secondly my head is not in Virginland, and everything certainly isn't rosy!
My head is though, securely screwed on my shoulders and I try to stay level headed at all times, looking at both sides of the argument.
Having been in this industry for nearly 15 years now, I have seen many changes to working conditions take place, some good and some not so good.
I agree with you completely that the Virgin payscale is different to that of, say, BA, however as I said before, one cannot compare Virgin to a much larger airline and may I say, one with a much stronger union.
Historically, Cabin crew have always considered themselves to be paid less than they are worth, but there are also many benefits and Virgin has some of the best in the Industry (I know that's not part of the salary, but it is still a benefit).
I agree that in a perfect world, all crew in all relative airlines should receive similar pay packets, but it just doesn't work like that. And as long as there are a queue of wannabe trolley dollies wanting to fly, then massive changes won't take place, they can't or an airline could fold.
That's the stark reality.
As many have said before in previous posts, small steps, a little at a time and one could hopefully reach a common goal... this it seems is a long way off.
Do you honestly believe that Virgin was holding out, like a game of chicken, knowing how detrimental the publicity was going to be and the long term effects that will be felt due to a strike?
brand image is very important to Virgin, its what sets us apart from the rest. Do you think they would take that chance of ruining it if there was a way of avoiding it....?

[letmefly!]

Just to point out that out of those who voted it was a result of 1497 who voted yes to strike compared to only 605 who voted no, which is a quite a majority of those who voted. It is also totally unknown of the crew's feelings who didnt vote so the whole play on it only being 30% of the crew who wish to strike is not actually true!!

[vsfsm]

vs lhr

The union had a mandate of no less than RPI and that s what they negotiated. It was then up to us as members to decide if we felt that would bridge the gap enough, the majority of our members still felt that the gap is still too big and needs to be addressed onceandforall. RPI increases for the next 20 years will never bridge the gap we experience.

This union is merely a mouth piece for it's paying membership as all unions are. We need them to help us get to where we need to be and this company and all it's staff should appreciate our situation.

I know that it may be a risk to assume we will get there in one swoop, but the company have taken advantage of this over the past 2 negotiations and will continue to take advantage of this in future if we didn't make a stand now. I only hope they are finally going to realise that it can't go on.

[vsfsm]

Yes, letmefly.

I was considering the same figures and if we are to assume the same % returns for the ballots which didn't make it back then we could very roughly:hmm: assume another 700 yes votes and around another 300 no votes. That would be, based on the same %es, around

2200 in favour
900 against

Around about a true 70-75% majority. Not to mention the crew who will deside to actually take a stand even though they voted no for one reason or another.

Loosely based ofcourse, but you get the drift.

[Localiser Green]

Only three flights to be cancelled on each strike day, not bad.

From VS website:

We are planning to run our full schedule of flights with the exception of the following

Departing from the UK

Flight No. Departure Date From To
VS25 9th, 10th, 16th, 17th January 2008 London Heathrow New York JFK
VS39 9th, 10th, 16th, 17th January 2008 London Heathrow Chicago
VS11 9th, 10th January 2008 London Heathrow Boston
VS671 16th, 17th January 2008 London Heathrow Nairobi

Departing from outside the UK

Flight No. Departure Date From To
VS26 10th, 11th, 17th, 18th January 2008 New York JFK London Heathrow
VS40 9th, 10th, 16th, 17th January 2008 Chicago London Heathrow
VS12 9th, 10th January 2008 Boston London Heathrow
VS672 16th, 17th January 2008 Nairobi London Heathrow

[vs_lhr]

Just to point out that out of those who voted it was a result of 1497 who voted yes to strike compared to only 605 who voted no, which is a quite a majority of those who voted. It is also totally unknown of the crew's feelings who didnt vote so the whole play on it only being 30% of the crew who wish to strike is not actually true!!

You cannot twist the figures that way to suit your purpose, nor can you extrapolate figures in a straight line to say if everyone voted, it would have been 2200 in favour.

All we know for sure is the opinions of those who voted yes or no. We don't know, and it is folly to speculate on, the reasons of those who abstained or were not in a position to vote. Therefore, the whole "play" on it only being 30% of the crew who voted for the strike are the only facts we have. Everything else is guesswork.

[Litebulbs]

VS LHR

If you use your logic, the only certainty is the ballot result. Who knows what everyone else feels, but 1500 cabin crew members have voted yes to strike action.

[Busta Level]

@ vs_lhr...

As you are very aware statistics can be utilised/massaged to show any result you want them to.

If you use the same line of reasoning as the company has done to come up with the "only 30% voted yes" figure, then surely you can also see that only 12% of the workforce voted no! :ooh:

But, funnily enough, that is not being quoted much on the company communications....

[vs_lhr]

Busta Level,

Absolutely - I agree, the number who actively voted no to strike was only 605 - or about 12-13% of the crew. However the important distinction is that we only know for certain that the 30% figure are the ones that are prepared to stand on a picket line in January.

Clearly the company will attempt to minimise that figure between now and then by either offering incentives not to strike, or by pointing out the harsh realities of taking part in an industrial dispute. It won't be pretty, but their goal will be to make sure as few people as possible are actually striking.

Now, given the announcement regarding how few flights will be cancelled, clearly management believe the strikers will have only a marginal impact on operations. This means they have little reason to produce a better offer. I, for one, don't think crew can afford to go without pay for as long as management can survive the dispute.

What's more worrying, however, is the impact this is having on business. I've already seen a switchover of some key accounts to BA "just to be on the safe side". Now it's official and all over the news, hoards of individual punters are going to think twice about booking VS any time soon.

So the strike may be survivable, but I'm very concerned that the drop in business is going to have knock-on effects that will be far reaching. For everyone's jobs.

[vsfsm]

So even if only 1000 crew walk ou the door you think the company will be able to run that schedule?

When wimbledon weekend happens the company practicaly falls apart and they plan for that a year in advance

Not to mention gay pride.

More propaganda i'm affraid. Its a smart thing to say from the company but they can't predict the amount of crew who will walk out.

Good try

[vs_lhr]

Well, they are also saying the same to Flying Club members in an email tonight (http://www.v-flyer.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=22443&REPLY_ID=169539), so I'd say they were being pretty confident that their contingency plans will work.

No offence, but I'm prepared to believe the guys who have a little bit more experience than you in running an airline who no-doubt have been planning for this eventuality since the threat of a strike was muted.

Just because you're not privy to their plans does not make it false.

[vsfsm]

Every company in this situation has to be seen to be addressing the problem proactively. BA reassured there customers in the same way but they still had to get back round the table besause they couldn't take the risk.

Having worked in industries where this has happened, i recognise the planning and output from companies in this situation. The company are by no means confident that they will not be affected massively on the day. All we really know is that unless Virgin get back round the table a huge chunk of the work force will not be turning up for work.

[vs_lhr]

And that, it would seem, is what it all hinges on. Whether management will get around the table again.

Let's say, just hypothetically if you like, that they mean what they say, and there is no improvement in the offer. What then?

[Anti-ice]

Well, this is a turnout - and a result for the long hard done by cabin crew at VS - i am glad that they are now in a position to say enough is enough.

I worked for VS in the 90's, within weeks i had to rent my house out and was very close to losing my car too - the pay was abominable - - and still is.
VS is a company of quality and they go to some fun places, but their crew have had to suffer years of poor pay in a demanding environment , whilst seeing money thrown at dozens of ventures in the name of global branding.

There will no doubt be a propoganda war (as there always is in industrial disputes), so i say to all the crew (who probably have enough anger to do so already), to stand by the courage of your convictions, protect your future, and if anyone tries to tell you otherwise,say you don't need their comment - the only person that can reasonably comment on this - is another VS cabin crew member :ok:

[Hand Solo]

Well as I said earlier, I'm not VS cabin crew, although I have a friend who is and I do think they deserve more dosh. BUT, this does look a bit like a hiding to nothing. Assuming about 1000 voted to strike, I don't think anyone could reasonably expect any more than that to strike. The picket lines will all need to be on BAA property, and just as BA did, VS managment will lean on the BAA to restrict the picket lines to easily managed locations. Alternative crew report arrangements will be established with the result that nobody will need to cross a picket line to get to work. This will, of course, all be explained in a nice letter from the company sent to everybodies home address. On the strike days, it's likely that about 200+ of the strikers will be on days or downroute anyway, leaving a potential absence of around say 800 crew. Now I was told that Virgin crews can work 5 down on a jumbo, which is a hell of a lot, so if the company were to up the working down payment for the strike days from £10 to £50 there's suddenly a big incentive for the waverers to go to work, and if you can work five down thats a lot of crew to be spread across other flights. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but having watched the recent BA cabin crew debacle unfold I'd bet my hat that that is the way Virgin management will play it if it does come to a strike.

[22/04]

Lots of different opinions here- hope I will be travelling as pax as booked on 16/01 and hope VS management and CC can sort this out before then. I am sure you all want VS to be a success but have some sympathy with what look like pretty poor T&Cs.

Won't be deserting unless VS really messes me about.

[glamourgirl!]

Just to clarify virgin89 Im about to get my Tiffany pen so I do recall doing standby's here and there and that worked better for me personally.

[Virgin89]

I would think the pens will now be a thing of the past G Girl, so you nearly got it. Why continue with something like that now??

Things are about to change here for good. I think it's sad to be honest with you.

I hear so many people say " I love my Job" "I love VS" but they are prepared to bring damage to the company that I think will result in job losses all over.

I've been offered another job with a private jet company, which I wasn't going to take, however on advise I've accepted it. I can't afford to be out of work as many can't.

You are not strong enough to see this through and VS as a company are and will see this through, however I don't want to work here with all these changes that will surely happen in the future, due to this result.

Good luck to you all. You will need it.

If the posts on here were constructive and well written then I would think differently about many of you. All I see are children thinking a stirke will be a day off from their normal duties.

You stand to lose a lot.

[vsfsm]

Doesn't matter where the picket lines are if there are any. From my side there are 1200 people willing to take action and as its form my point another1000 or so who didn't return a ballot but will be willing to strike.
Thats 2200 ish

From the company side there are 1200 willing to strike and a % of those who didn't return a ballot but will be willing to strike.

Doesn't matter how you look at it, that's a lot of people not coming to work on the 9th and 16th and the company will be hard pressed to cover that no matter how they spin it. And they'll be spinning like a big spinny thing for the next couple of weeks guaranteed

[scoobydooo]

Wow,

Great result for us, the ballots returned, the strength of the vote. Naturally there will be some that say this is a minority and militants etc etc. Hard facts are that cc union very different to pilots union in number of ballots that will EVER be returned on anything, look back at all the numbers since this started earlier in the year.

This is a strong vote and hopefully the company will wake up and smell the coffee - this is a clear sign.

Lots of high emotions in postings today, still lots more propaganda to come but I have to say today post of the day for me is this one, I love it, I take my hat of to it.

Well done everyone Unite members are UNITED. Happy to be striking - NO, happy to have such a strong vote, YES.
I await lots of brand new posters telling us how bad we are.


@ vs_lhr...

As you are very aware statistics can be utilised/massaged to show any result you want them to.

If you use the same line of reasoning as the company has done to come up with the "only 30% voted yes" figure, then surely you can also see that only 12% of the workforce voted no! :ooh:

But, funnily enough, that is not being quoted much on the company communications....

[firstchoice7e7]

Im a regular VS pax, all i can say is good luck to the CC and i hope you get a deserved pay rise. Your current pay is pretty poor and its not enough to have a decent standard of living in the UK today. You have my support.

[vsfsm]

WEDNESDAY 19 DEC 07
21 % EXACTLY ON TIME
(Target 50%)


WELL DONE YOU!!

[vsfsm]

Firstcoice7e7

If your reading this, thanks for your support. People really are not aware just how bad the pay conditions (among other things) are at VS and we just hope that more people start to look at it before they berate our crew for using their legal right to change things.

Cheers mate

[ikea monster]

Let the small minority of VAA CC strike. After all it appears that only minimal disruption will occur. It seems evident that there is a militant divide amongst VAA crew - sooner that this is stamped out the better.

Under present day circumstances what they were offered was a very good deal, I understand that this has now been withdrawn.

Just remember this - there are thousands of young girls and boys who have applied to VAA and will be more than happy to step in too your Glam Jobs !!!!

You need 100% unity- Which you do not have. I hope it is very cold and windy on the days you minority plan to picket, that will make it even more pathetic.

As for those who cross the line, I think the majority of folks have your support- so don't panic. Good luck to the majority.

[vsgla]

IKEA MONSTER

You really must look at the actuall figures. The company are happy to announce that only 30% of the cabin crew community voted in favour of strike, but by the same calculation only 12% voted no.
What do you think the rest of the community will do when faced with the prospect of crossing a picket line?

Get over yourself and stop being told what to think by this company. How long can this company hope to keep the old "family atmosphere" before other departments start to become disgruntled.

You'll be in our situation soon, only difference being that you don't have the right to complain and you'll just have to bend over and take it:eek:

Unless you get a union ofcourse, but your all so blinded by the pretty little world you've got going on in that rented space you call your work place at the office you'll never be able to do a thing about it.

Leave it out.

[vsgla]

Here's a thought,

If the BAA staff (unite members) go on strike when they propose to,around the 2-6th of January closing down all the major airports, how does the company intend to absorb that loss coupled with the loss they will incur when the cabin crew go on strike just days later.

The company are so sure they can deal with a potentially damaging so called minority walk out of its crew but have they informed its flying club members and other paying customers of the disruption that our comrades at BAA will cause.

That sounds to me like even bigger losses if they don't get back round the table with the only work force it has the power to stop going on strike.

Don't under estimate the power of this union.The largest of its kind in the Civil Air Transport(CAT) sector.

Hate to rain on your parade office staff, but it looks like your gonna have to start taking us seriously after all.

I hate to say it but "WE DESERVE MORE MONEY"

Who ever you are guys, come back. All is forgiven.

[vsgla]

Just a reminder

Unite the union repesents the fire service(among other key services) at all the major airports in the uk and it looks like they aren't going to reach agreement before they vote to take action in the first week of January.

This is the power of union representation.

Without sounding too militant. Lets see you deal with this lot Ridgeway and co.

Time to get back round that table eh....

[vs_lhr]

Doesn't matter where the picket lines are if there are any. From my side there are 1200 people willing to take action and as its form my point another1000 or so who didn't return a ballot but will be willing to strike.
Thats 2200 ish


Your conclusions only highlight your inability to grasp the facts. There is absolutely no way you can know that the 1000 people in the union who abstained will suddenly join in industrial action. Actually, what seems more likely is that fence-sitters will not take part in any strike, because it will cost them personally. A very likely scenario is that pressure from the company and the loss in pay will seriously chip away at the 1497 crew who already voted yes. Support will go down, not up.

There is an ugly militancy growing here. At one stage this was about sending a message to the company that the deal wasn't good enough. Now that it's reached this stage and the company has clearly stated the last offer was the best offer, there's a wierd blood-lust coming through from those who just want to hurt VS. You couldn't force the rise you wanted, so now you just want to give the company a good kicking.

You're playing with peoples lives. It's irresponsible, immature and reckless. You should be ashamed.

[Justanotherpax]

At the risk of repeating myself and others, this is all getting very ugly. Also, as a VS customer, very concerning for the future of the airline.

I don't see any hope of a deal before 9 Jan. It just seems that too many people are taking too much glee in the prospect of a strike, rather than an amicable pay deal (I know plenty of you will deny this, but take a read of this thread and honestly tell me it's not true).

[lgw-morph]

vsgla,

Other departments are already feeling disgruntled.

VAA have outsourced so many departments over the last few years, the family atmosphere has well and truely gone.

About five years ago, there was a plan to outsource all deparments with the exception of thoes who are customer facing, yet even some of thoes are now staffed by external companies (in Virgin uniform).

VAA has changed, and will not return to the company we enjoyed working for, thoes days have gone.

I truely support the Cabin Crew guys, you have a very demanding job, and deserve to be rewarded for it.

[Fournier Boy]

If the BAA staff (unite members) go on strike when they propose to,around the 2-6th of January closing down all the major airports, how does the company intend to absorb that loss coupled with the loss they will incur when the cabin crew go on strike just days later.

Just another example of not knowing what you are talking about. We pay BAA lots of money (even more as of next year as landing fees are due to go up 17%) to use the UK airports, however money does pass both ways. Any losses made by airlines affected by a BAA strike are directly claimable back from BAA as breach of contract. This happens nearly everyday.

For example, one of ours is late on stand because the stand its allocated is occupied by another carrier. As a result leaves say 15 mins late - purely due to this other carrier not leaving the stand allocated to VS by the BAA. BAA will charge us for not being off stand on time, we in turn will charge BAA for not clearing our allocated stand in time, BAA would then pass this on the the original delaying carrier.

Thats how it works all the time, thats why there are code delays for everything. If LSG hold up boarding due to catering and it goes late, they get charged, if crew are late through security, the bus gets charged, or BAA security gets charged. You may remeber this happened earlier this year with the LGW refuelers, their company backed down as it would have had to have stumped up the airlines losses.

However this is why the BAA will come up with a deal for its members, I'm not sure on how many airlines serve the BAA airports, however they would all be able to claim their losses back from BAA, a figure that would run to 100's of million. That is why Virgin is not panicked by this, a BAA strike cannot go ahead as not only would BAA lose income, but they would have to pay out a fortune.

VS on the other hand, would lose money yes, but it wouldn't be paying anything out (other than the refunds and small amounts of food vouchers etc) but nowhere near the amounts BAA would pay. However this would be short lived because as a result, we'd bill the BAA, and we get the money back.

I and many of my colleagues also feel that you have nothing to achieve by doing this. The company offered you more money, you've thrown it back at them. The time for an 11th hour deal has already passed, if it were to have come at all (which I never believed it would) it would have been last week, to stop you all voting for strike and to stop the press coverage.

I therefore think that the company will hold its word and not give you another deal. You will therefore not only lose your deal, but lose your pay for the days you are on strike. So you gain NOTHING, achieve chaos, bad press, and damage the company maliciously. This in turn causes problems for everybody, passengers and staff alike. You all have nothing to gain, and have already lost out - why continue?

[scoobydooo]

why continue?

Becasue we are sick to the teeth of having to give up conditions just to keep an even keel, time the company stopped taking the pi$$.

This isn't about one set of negotioations FB, this is years of frustration now reaching climax, this set of negotiations is the straw that broke the camels back.

[Fournier Boy]

Nobody gets something for nothing, you either give up conditions and get more money, or you go to work more and get more money - its simple.

You (crew) evidently don't want to work standby more - which seems to be the only way to sort crew down (this being the crew down because somehow your department manages to AVERAGE NEARLY 30 DAYS SICK PER PERSON PER YEAR ). Some argue the company needs more people - rubbish. There of course will be a natural turnover per year as some of the younger crew get the travel bug out of them and leave for pastures new. But the the overwhelming issue is your (crew) sickness.

Say there are 4500 crew, thats 135,000 days lost per year due sickness. Based on my other halfs roster, she averaged 10 days work a month, 120 days in 2007 including standby. If you imagine all the sick taken by the same people, 1125 Cabin Crew wouldn't work for an entire year.

Effectively the airline already has 133% of the cabincrew workforce it needs, how many more do you want employed to cover your (crew) sickie?

[scoobydooo]

Your argument is sound, but... every airline suffers the same problem so it's not really virgin specific. i.e. the other airlines offer a fair deal with the same problems why cant virgin.

If your response is going to be our problem is actually worse than other airlines, perhaps you should ask - why ?

[coax]

As an engineer with the company all I can say is you had better hold out for whatever it is that you want because none of the rest of us are going to get anything for the next few years due to your actions so you had better make sure its worth it,you have already lost any support for you from engineering.On the aircraft yesterday the cabin crew were all happy that they where going to get a few days extra paid holiday by going on strike,your not the company are going to pay you nothing and fair play to them I say.

[scoobydooo]

reply rather than edit the last.

Perhaps the company should consider reading some of the papers and projects that have been undertaken in the workplace to reduce sickness (as it does cost employers significantly). I dont mean punishment I mean reward as it has been proven that it works and punishment does not.

That would be things like work related pay, low basics but high rewards in trip pay allowances etc etc. You cant win offering low basic and low rewards/allowances/ trip pay in other words, what virgin does now.

If Virgin hasn't figured this by now it never will.

-
Sorry you feel like that coax, I hope your guys can join a union and get what you duly deserve like we are trying to achive and tthe pilots did (yes I know it was different ;) )

[Fournier Boy]

Virgin shouldn't have to reward sickness incentives, maybe to a small amount when the problem is small, but when a quarter of you are not turning up, it needs to get strict. Personally I believe, the problem grows exponentially, a few people go sick for a busy vegas, then others don't want to do a vegas, because it goes crew down, so they go sick. Then all vegas's become one to go sick for and the problem gets worse and worse.

The company tries to get round this by giving more standby, to allow you the cover, yet you don't want to do standby. Standby is there purely to cover for sickness, or crew out of hours due tech or whatever reasons. In theory if everyone goes to work, standby wouldn't be needed. Your gripe is, standby has increased, this will be purely due to sickness increasing.

And as an aside, if you knew anything about engineering, there is no big drive for unionisation, because funny enough, we're pretty happy where we are. We have a staff committee that meet with management to discuss things we have minor problems with and these get rectified over time. Of course we'd all like a bit more pay, but funny enough, those that want more money, go out, get more qualifications, get more experience, and jump up the payscale - as you would if you wanted more money in any job. We all got 2%, more would have been nice, but then again, at least we got more money, and we're still employed, so for a year in aviation, thats pretty good. What we don't do is ask for something for nothing. Thats what you've done, they offered you 4.8%, but you'd have to work a bit more - you turned it down. Now you have nothing.

Well done.

[vs_lhr]

Sorry you feel like that coax, I hope your guys can join a union and get what you duly deserve like we are trying to achive and tthe pilots did (yes I know it was different )

>sigh<

Why is your answer to everyone who is going to be negatively effected by your actions to join a union? So the whole workforce can make unrealistic demands on the company and bring it to its knees before we've had a chance to toast in the new year?

Unite has already proved how bad a union can be. God forbid that kind of chaos is unleashed across the whole organisation.

If you can stop waving that red flag for a minute, you'll be able to see your greed is going to cost those around you a lot of money.

Happy Christmas.

[teifiboy]

Apologies if already covered, but what is the situation with those chosing to strike down route? Will they expect their non striking co-workers to operate the flights home minimum crew? Will they be accomodated extra nights down routes at the company's cost. Can imagine some very angry non-strikers itching to get home after a 9 day HKG-SYD trip and being told that it is now a 11 day HKG-SYD

[warkman]

After this is over, Virgin should put all Cabin crew onto external contract staff basis, so that if they go out on strike, or go "sick" they don't get paid, like most industries now operate.

then the small group of militants can be removed from service.

[scoobydooo]

FB - so how do you think we should get those repeat sick offenders to come in ? I am not talking about rewarding people to coming to wokr I am talking about making it an incentive i.e. its too expensive not to come to work, erm let me think now... ah yes like BA and the charters do with duty pay.

you turned it down. Now you have nothing.

We shall see, thanks for the well done and Merry Christmas to you all.

[scoobydooo]

That is a great idea warkman, freelance/contract staff can generally command 2-3 x permenant staff. Naturally they would have to pay us all our redundancies too - I like it but I dont think the company will go for it. ;)

[Pistol Called]

"Will they be accomodated extra nights down routes at the company's cost"... Errr NO!
My bet is that no one goes on strike so as to prolong a trip and about 8 CC actually strike from UK.

[scoobydooo]

tefi

The union is sending further info 4th Jan, but you can always mail them direct you can get BB and DK email address from union website.

[warkman]

After 12 weeks striking they can terminate your employment anyway scooby.
Good luck finding alternative employment as CC with thei black mark on your record.
Now, six weeks to train cabin crew........

[strike1]

Amazing obviously all you people saying that we are going to make the airline go under, and that you accepted only 2% becuse you are such good workers!! i mean pathetic!! you are just naive and obviously have no pride in yourselves, focourse virgin has the money, can someone please ask ridgway and company how much they make, how much they have spent on every other aspect of the busineess except staff!!! please the money is just moved around all virgin fiscal paradises and virgin companies to show no profit!

That person who wrote we should all be externally employed, well i wont say it here but you can imagine what ill say to you!!! if they do that they can forget virgin service reputation, and they would have such hight turover it would be impossible to run it effectively!!!

You people are just pissed off that you acepted a miserable 2% and that we sticked together and fight, you obviously make too much money and can pay ur outgoings easily!

sorry but thats the truth.

[teifiboy]

think earlier questions irrelevant anyway... seems number of flights affected could be counted on Homer Simpsons left hand. Doesn't seem to put the Union in a very strong position.

[Fournier Boy]

Apologies if already covered, but what is the situation with those chosing to strike down route? Will they expect their non striking co-workers to operate the flights home minimum crew? Will they be accomodated extra nights down routes at the company's cost. Can imagine some very angry non-strikers itching to get home after a 9 day HKG-SYD trip and being told that it is now a 11 day HKG-SYD



The company and Union have stated that strike action can only be taken by those on UK soil on the dates of the flight. If you are down route, you are to operate the flight home (assuming you have an aeroplane to fly home on). I imagine that refusal to do so will be a dismissal as you will be breaking the TERMS of the strike.

As for your plane not getting there, I've no idea, I'm sure that situation will be communicated to you at a later date.

As for how to sort sickness, I'd say Doctors note for any absence, or failing that, a visit to Occ Health to confirm that you are unfit to fly. Repeat offenders in a short period of time to be interviewed by their CPM, repeated inability to be able to fly (ie, unable to work say 1/5 of your rostered flights), removal from flying duties, and a ground based job, like check-in/crewing/dispatch etc for three months for you to apply to another area of the company or leave to pastures new. Just a suggestion

[scoobydooo]

Yes warkamn 1500+ crew get instanty dismissed (not selective ones) oh but hang on thats unfair dismissal if the company hasnt taken reasonable steps to settle the dispute, so, in short we keep on striking and any dismissal is unfair until the company takes reasonable steps. :ok:

I didnt realise there were so many militants out there, or should that be disgruntled virgin atlantic cabin crew, aka the majority. This is a serious dose of reality to the company.

[DarkStar]

This 'strike' will never happen, Galley F.M reports that its all bluff and that the CC will cave in at the last minute, the will isn't there to strike. They know VS can just employ more CC as there are enough deluded glamour chasers out there.

Sad, but true.:}

[scoobydooo]

tefi, outbound yes, but then the services the next day and the next and the next cant operate if there is no a/c there, look how the porgramme suffers when an a/c goes tech or there is a thunderstorm in orlando !!

Off out for mince pies now, they are on sale :)

[scoobydooo]

Ah Darkstar that's a classic, trying to get 1500 people in on a bluff, you cant get 15 to commit to a dinner the same night :ugh: I like the sense of humour though :ok:

[vsgla]

glamour..?

[magicE]

Can someone tell me how much expenses cabin crew at Virgin get on an average month if you work, say 5 or 6 flights. On average please!!!!

[Fournier Boy]

Amazing obviously all you people saying that we are going to make the airline go under, and that you accepted only 2% becuse you are such good workers!! i mean pathetic!! you are just naive and obviously have no pride in yourselves


A bit childish don't you think. I think you'll find we've got our eyes open as to what it costs to run a business and furthermore realise that just because the government raises cost of living, doesn't mean the company can get shafted because you believe you instantly deserve more.

focourse virgin has the money, can someone please ask ridgway and company how much they make, how much they have spent on every other aspect of the busineess except staff!!! please the money is just moved around all virgin fiscal paradises and virgin companies to show no profit!


Again, pure speculation, you have no evidence of this, if you have some produse it, until then, stop using Galley FM rumours. Rumours have no basis on how you should act now.

You people are just pissed off that you acepted a miserable 2% and that we sticked together and fight, you obviously make too much money and can pay ur outgoings easily!



Nope, right now I'm pissed of at you and your colleagues for dragging my job (and hundreds of others) into a position that if you guys had been sensible, we wouldn't be at. I, unlike you, do not expect to be automatically given money just because I'm alive and working for someone. Nobody should ever expect a yearly payrise, it happens if they (the company) can afford it.

I obviosly make too much money do I - well again far from the truth, what I however do is manage to pay my bills to eat, get to work, and keep a roof over my head. What I do little of is party, shop, have nice holidays etc etc, I pay the bills first, and wisely use the rest of my money to ensure that I don't have to stick it on the credit card.

This has not always the case and previously I've lived in dire shared accomodation to live, however, what did I do about it. I worked harder, moved jobs (several times), got more qualified, and made many sacrifices to get where I am now - its called life, and everyone has to do it. Me, my parents, their parents so on and so on. You can't just sit there, jump into a job straight from school (I'm making generalised point - not directed at crew) and expect that job to natuarally take you through life, providing myou with housing, cars and toys for the rest of your days - thats a fairytale!

Simple point, work hard, get paid, work harder - better yourself - get more QUALIFIED - get paid more.

Stop being childish, and forget thinking we are jealous of you, we are not!

[strike1]

scooby, ur funny, thank god there is someone round here that has some sence round all this lot!! well dont wanna get into numbers but i do think most people will go on strike on the day!!

we just have to get the message across that its a MUST

to the other virgin staff chatting, I mean what planet you live in " virgin family" that is crap, ive been here 12 yrs plus and really cant hear anymore of that crap, we are employees, expendable, nuisance and to be workout till we cant cope, thats ALL company policy including this one, so if they are going to do it, i better get paid as much as i can, an you people in other departments better get too!!!!

[magicE]

F Boy

If your going to quote people, stick it in bold will you!!!!! It makes horrible reading:bored:

[warkman]

Scooby,
you are living in an unreal world if you think 1500 "strikers" will happen.
The majority will fade as quick as the sun going down. If you get a couple of hundred prepared to sacrifice their jobs, their bank balances and their homes for a prolonged strike thet will be a "win" for you.

Ever heard of the Grunwick pickets, The Miners and the Rover workers? All of those are still with the companies they took action against are they not?

This is going to be quite amusing in one way, watching the hard core militants lose everything and (not at all amusing) the union Cabin crew taken down this road by these political animals NEVER getting the money they will lose back into their accounts and having to come back to work eventually with nothing to show, but bigger overdrafts and possibly the loss of their homes, to a quite possible smaller company with less jobs available.

As for the person posting as strike1, I am not allowed to call you a f:mad:g dimwit by the rules of this forum.

[Jcdcon]

Strike1 - pleasant as always :bored:

It is people like you who make me want to call up the company and offer to work more days to accomodate this strike. At least Scooby, who I disagree with most of the time, has the intelligence to argue his points in a far less vitriolic manner than you.

[scoobydooo]

Warkman

I guess once again the proof will just have to be in he pudding (which incidentally are on sale too as well as mince pies :E). Many thought the crew would accept the 2nd, 3rd, and there would be as a you call them a hardcore minority that would vote yes to strike. Each time the company has been mistaken despite all sorts of efforts[sic] to get an outcome it wanted.

Are you , KO, digi and everyone else not surprised at the strength of the vote ? I know I am, and pleasantly so. So even though 1500 crew voted strike, those that voted NO have now lost the deal on the table (which may have been an influence in their NO vote) , so what do they do now to ensure a payrise - there is only one choice ? It is possible that these people and those that didn't return ballots for fear of the sequence count may undertake action too.

food for thought !
Do you work for Virgin ?

[vs69]

Forgive the order of the brown nose nature of this post but much as I may not have agreed with everything you have said scooby you certainly always give a balanced,reasonable and measured response to many posters,perhaps an example to us all,is there any bait you will rise to??saying that however I am more than a little concerned about what the future holds for VS,belts were being tightened enough as it was so all I can say is good luck to everyone out there regardless of what you were hoping for,but dont expect me to beep my horn when I drive past your picket line...

[saz71]

In reply to coax...Just so you know, when the crew do go on strike they will not be getting paid....Hopefully now you will realise that we are not going into this matter just becouse we want an extra day off.

[vs69]

I think the point coax was trying to make was that some crew (not all) were under the impression that they would still be paid,even if they didnt fly.Obviously not all and I would hope not those that voted for a strike as that wouldnt inspire confidence as to what reasons you were striking.....be lucky

[vs_lhr]

oh but hang on thats unfair dismissal if the company hasnt taken reasonable steps to settle the dispute, so, in short we keep on striking and any dismissal is unfair until the company takes reasonable steps.

VS have made every effort to meet the demands of the cabin crew, hence why the union have been recommending their offers.

The law does not require Virgin to make any further offers. They can show that they have already negotiated with the union.

[Nuts&Bolts]

@ Strike1

"Amazing obviously all you people saying that we are going to make the airline go under, and that you accepted only 2% becuse you are such good workers!! i mean pathetic!! you are just naive and obviously have no pride in yourselves"

:mad::mad: charming! I think quite a few of us will remember that post in the not too distant future. If you're looking for support from those of us on the ground, you ain't gonna get it by being so rude.

I'd like to think I take pride in my job and myself. And for the record..........no I'm not naive either.

[scoobydooo]

Quote:
oh but hang on thats unfair dismissal if the company hasnt taken reasonable steps to settle the dispute, so, in short we keep on striking and any dismissal is unfair until the company takes reasonable steps.
VS have made every effort to meet the demands of the cabin crew, hence why the union have been recommending their offers.

The law does not require Virgin to make any further offers. They can show that they have already negotiated with the union.

We discussed this before, since then I have found documents which lead to the conclusion that it is negotiations post ballot/industrial action. Quote below is from http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmstand/e/st990309/am/90309s01.htm (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmstand/e/st990309/am/90309s01.htm)



Why choose eight weeks? I think that the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. Chidgey) and some Conservative Members asked that question on Second Reading. We want to set a period that allows reasonable time for parties to resolve their dispute and so avoid dismissals. In our judgment, eight weeks gives enough time for detailed and serious discussions to occur, possibly involving third parties such as the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service.


Some employers might not use the eight-week period to try to find a settlement. They might sit on their hands and do nothing. Workers must have redress in those circumstances, so clause 15 also gives employees a right to claim unfair dismissal if they have been dismissed after the eight-week period and employers have not engaged in procedures to resolve the dispute.

Those new protections will apply only to industrial action that is official and lawfully organised. We will therefore create a dual set of obligations on the parties. Unions must organise the action in accordance with the law, including the detailed provisions concerning notice and ballots. If they do not, the rights will not apply, which means that employer scan, without the fear of tribunals against them, dismiss those taking unofficial action. Employers are obliged to begin serious negotiations with the union before they can fairly dismiss.

[scoobydooo]

This makes a good read too

http://www.erylmcnallymep.org.uk/international_confederation_of_f.htm

this bit, for those worried

Ballots for industrial action have changed so that a union will no longer have to provide an employer with a list of names and addresses of employees being balloted. Ballot procedures have been simplified.

[vsfsm]

Spot on Scooby.

Well found.

Some people on here think that just because they have nicknames which suggest pilot or engineer that they have an opinion which might not be challenged by lowley cabin crew.

Some of the postees wil do well to remember that a large chunk of our crew have had more education and in some cases are more qualified than some of our pilots and grease monkeys.

Just to point out, the grease monkeys are as we speak negotiating through Brian Boyd and Unite the union to have recognition in their depatrment.

The reason they haven't had it before now is that they accepted a cash bonus a few years ago with a stipulation that they would not look for union recognition.

Quit moaning like bitches and leave this to our unionised department. Come back when you can actually have a say in the running of your depatrment instead of recieving a very long lenght everytime the company feel like it.

[MakingaSplash]

Can I just ask, what EXACTLY do we want. You can mention more money and better conditions all you like, but what I need is for someone to tell me what precise % or conditions everyone is striking for? This is the one question without which no one can present a united front. The union recommends an offer and then when it get rejected, it recommends a strike, without guidelines of the strike aims. This makes no sense.

I am sure I will get shot down for asking this, but until I have this clear I can't make any sort of decision to even consider striking.

[Dan Air 87]

To Scooby and Company
What you are all missing is the uncertainty that your actions have created not just within the airline but with business customers who fly in your J class class cabin which is also where you make most of your money. Money you need to invest in with more innovative ideas to keep your airline ahead of the competition. Money you need for new aircraft. Money you need for new routes. Money you need to improve your fleet, services as your competitors close the gap.

You should also be looking ahead to March when Open Skies hits LHR and you will be competing against CO and DL on your key US routes that you need to be profitable. You will have more carriers in a market which is where you need the loyalty of your customers.

As it is you are hell bent on driving us away by expending your energy in a public slanging match with your ground based staff. This is short sighted and shows a lack of respect for your fellow employees.

We would all like more money. I can understand the grief that you all feel but now is not the best time for your Company to have a strike with so much at stake.

[scoobydooo]

very fair question in my book, everyone wants something different and I hope that most have communicated their requirements to the union by some means or another, for me it was a chin wag and mail to BB who welcomes all phone calls.

[strike1]

here here vsfsm, well said, so u engineers who are slagging us off now, ur now trying to get a union eh? and how long till u ask for more( which is reasonable) so please dont slag us off, and true what u said, i for 1 have 1 degree, speak 3 languages and have small business , so please stop that " get urself more educated" crap, cause I AM educated, but for the hard work that do onboard i want to be recognised, and like i said i¨ve been too many years now, putting up with virgin saying " NO MONEY SORRY, BUT HEY WE ARE THROWING A PARTY FOR YOU GUYS ISNT THAT ENOUGH" well actually NO!!!!!
I am sorry if i sound agressive in my coments but i really have had it with VS!!!

[vs_lhr]

So everyone's striking for a different reason, eh?

Can I strike until someone gives me a Ferrari?

[scoobydooo]

DA87

As it is you are hell bent on driving us away by expending your energy in a public slanging match with your ground based staff. This is short sighted and shows a lack of respect for your fellow employees

I dont think I have been rude at any point throughtout entire debate (except once when I got my feathers ruffled, for which I appologised).

Yes, open skies is coming, but not just to virgin, like sickness it is something every airline does & will have to deal with, if we do not address our issues now it will just be another excuse used at the next negotiations as to why we are not offered a reasonable deal.

[vs_lhr]

i for 1 have 1 degree, speak 3 languages and have small business

But strangely, despite all that, you are barely literate. Go figure.

[strike1]

To Dan Air, But when is a good time to ask for more money?

When i started " OR WE ARE SUCH A SMALL COMPANY WE CANT AFFORD" ok

years later, "MMMM GULF WAR, SORRY DIFFICULT TIMES" OK

YEARS ON MASSIVE PROFITS " SORRY HAVE TO INVEST FUTURE" OK

YEARS ON " SORRY 9/11 REALLLLLLY TOUGH NOW" OK!

YEARS ON " OPEN SKY SORRY" well actually NOT OK

ITs excuse after excuse, they can invest on new planes, base, clubhouse, terminal etc, EXCEPT guess what ...... STAFF

well great strategy guys, but dont expect all to follow like sheep!!

[scoobydooo]

vs-lhr, I suppose so, but you (we) probably couldnt afford the insurance so no point :}. As for different reason, no 2 people are the same and all that, everyone has different personal circumstances, I'm sure there is a TOP 10 though.

On the first day of Christmas my union rep said to me...

... more crew down payments, no more standby, hire more staff and a review of alllowannnncees (all to the tune)

on the second day of....

etc etc

[MakingaSplash]

If anyone does come up with a percentage, let me know, for now I'm going to go and make the most of Christmas. :rolleyes:

[HolidayPilot]

Dan Air 87 - "but now is not the best time for your Company to have a strike with so much at stake".

The Company never thinks it is a good time to strike;)

[spacecadet]

As a pilot with a crew member wife, I fully support the cabin crew along with a vast-vast majority of my collegues.
Virgin will NOT go under, don't believe everything you hear from the management. Just now there will be a propaganda campaign & every department will be looking after their own interests.
There is clearly something fundamentally wrong when such a large proportion of the customer facing staff are so disgruntled.
Hate to say it, but it has been a long time coming. How the management have not recognised this is beyond me!

[strike1]

Thank you space cadet, someone that supports us, it really is incredible that VS has not realized that all this was coming! they have been deluded for so long thinking we were stupid trolly dollies, who would never stand up for themselves, well FINALLY, ( and im so pround that we have) we have and i hope we will stand and let VS know that we no longer accept excuses and empty promises!!

[Nuts&Bolts]

"There is clearly something fundamentally wrong when such a large proportion of the customer facing staff are so disgruntled.

Hate to say it, but it has been a long time coming. How the management have not recognised this is beyond me!"

Very well and politely said. But it seems it's not just customer facing staff that are disgruntled. The whole company has changed vastly over the last 3 or 4 years, grown in size and has lost that personal touch. I doubt anyone expects to be greeted by SRB each day, but maybe it's time Senior Management took a little step back and looked at the situation, which may come off the back of what has happened with cabin crew. So please, people like Strike1 - there's no need to slag off other staff and call them naive, and that they have no pride in themselves. Rather rude I thought :hmm:

After all, we're just trying to do our jobs, and do them well. People on the ground are concerned at what is happening but we all still have to work together to keep this show on the road each day.

[strike1]

I apologise if i offended any collegues ofcourse, but some of the comments here, just make me want to shout " WAKE UP PEOPLE" cause some comments are really naive to say the least. I get along great with ground staff and mechanics and i would support u 100% if u went on strike, so why not u on us!!!!! if we were all 1 block it would be great, VS would listen all the time, but thats too much of a wish, so now VS is trying to pitch all of us against eachother.

The fact is that airlines are lying thru their teeth, they are posting huge profits, BA 585 million, Air France/ KLM 1 billion Euros, United which was in bankrupcy 2 years ago has had their 3rd ever largest profit in history at 900 million pounds,even Iberia and Alitalia, so pleaseeeeeeeeeeee dont tell me that VS is not making alot but alot of money, when everytime i get onboard J, W are full, I AM NOT A STUPID TROLLY ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!:}

[stowaway]

Dear Strike1,
As an outsider looking in on what has happened, I find it amazing that VS management has not seen the strike ballot coming.
VS laud, quite rightly, the standard of srvice onboard, provided I might add by the best cabin crew of any airline I have flown on.
Despite this they pay relatively less and less, expecting the crew to work harder and harder, (many up to the legal maximum) and then offer a below inflation payrise which would have been more than covered by taking one of the crew off, thus saving in the region of 8% of wage costs!
VS cabin crew are not a militant group, but when their union twice recommends wage agreements that are voted down there is something terribly wrong.
For those withoutthe data, the CAA list the average crew earning for each airline they are:-

BMI 12.9K VS 13.3K XL 15.1K Thomas Cook 15.4K Monarch 15.5K Thompson 15.7K My travel 16.5K ist Choice 18.7 K Easyet 19.3K and......................B.A. 27.9K !!!

As you can see, VS crew (with the exception of BMI) are under paid by at least 2.0K per year.

I hope that you get the pay and conditions that your dedicated excellent service deserves. If Virgin can lose 29 Million on Virgin Nigeria they can afford to pay you what you deserve.

Regards,

[thebigcheese]

Ok Everyone. Just Been On To Phone To A Union Rep And He Makes It All Very Clear.
We All Must Now Stand Strong And Strike No Matter How You Voted Last Time Round, And Even If You Did Not Return Ballot.
At The Moment All The Hard Work That Has Been Done Since Unionisation Back In 01 And Any Well Deserved Pay Increase We Are Due Is In Jeopardy Unless We All Stand Together And Then The Company Will Realise We Are Not A Bunch Of " Only Cabin Crew " And Start Paying The Going Rate...... Dont Know About You Guys But Im Sick To Death Of Hearing About How Well Vs Crew Do In Avaition Awards And How Its Always Jam Tomorrow.
Enough Is Enough...pay Up ...:=

[thebigcheese]

Anyone Got Any Ideas What Has Happened To Wdmm
Could Do With As Much Input As possible????????

[Fournier Boy]

Just to point out, the grease monkeys are as we speak negotiating through Brian Boyd and Unite the union to have recognition in their depatrment.
here here vsfsm, well said, so u engineers who are slagging us off now, ur now trying to get a union eh? and how long till u ask for more( which is reasonable) so please dont slag us off.
That is amazing! The best bit of B*****ks we've heard yet. I've just had a straw poll of the whole nightshift, including the supervisor, and they are not aware of it. Our Staff Committe have told us nothing of it, nor have we requested them to look into joining a union.
Looking at the way Unite have acted with you guys, what even makes you think we'd want to join them. My colleague just added that he wouldn't p**s on Boyd if he was on fire (direct quotation).
No I'm sorry VSFSM, I think you need to very quickly state your source of this information please, as I'd say that LGW for sure is not aware of this. In fact a quick review of the Staff Committe Notes on our notice board show no reference to this.
If you are trying to belittle your engineering department and the views of its members by stating lies as facts, then not only are you very misguided, but very stupid.
Think carefully of your answer, you very much need to clarify the allegations you made in your post.

[67k]

You must get everyone on board asap and get united - whatever they've voted!

[coax]

actually us grease monkeys as you call us are not looking for any union representation you have been misinformed there.

[Count von Altibar]

Apparently the Virgin Atlantic dollies are downing tools in January. I wonder what Sir Dickie will do about this? I think the management will capitulate as they're well know to have poor pay when compared to other UK crew. I believe they're planning two 48 hour actions.

[keeperboy]

Guys, I wish you all the best with your action to receive a liveable london wage.

At BA we have decent pay and good conditions. But this isn't because BA is a fantastic employer that wants to throw money at us to retain us. It is down to ONE issue: the strength of our union. And the strength of our union is down to the percentage of members that are part of it.

The best thing any of you at Virgin can do is to motivate ALL the crew to join the union. I think at BA about 92% of us are in BASSA. At our last vote for industrial action, 96.1% of BASSA members voted for industrial action - on an eighty something percent return.

In other words, a strike would have completely grounded the airline.

A friend of mine has a flight booked with Virgin for January to NYC. He received an email today basically saying that nearly all flights would still operate on the strike dates. I think there was literally 4 or 5 cancellations listed.

I guess unfortunately for you guys striking, Virgin will still be able to maintain a decent operation due to the amount of crew who are not in a union and are not legally entitled to strike.

[Litebulbs]

There are 3100+ Unite members, who have all been called to back the action, regardless of how they voted.

If people who carry out this action increase the company's offer, will those people who do not back the strike, surrender any increase over 2%?

[magicE]

Why has nobody replied to MakingaSplash regarding his/her question. It seems to me to be the best post in the whole thread.

What do you want, does anybody know. What did the union ask for on your behalf. I can understand industrial action if the company offered jack s%*t in comparison but if the union asked for a 4.8% increase than whats all the fuss about.

If the problem lies with the added conditions such as extra standby etc, you have to see it from the other point of view. Ok, we can all say that the company is going to try and give the least possible, i'd be worried if they were not, but in order to give you what you want(again does anybody actually know)there must be some sacrifice. Crew down is a major problem and must be sorted out and its not just a case of employing more staff, as somebody said earlier, there are already more crew than required IF there was a normal amount of sickness. ( I must say if i was crew and i knew of people constantly taking time off when they were not actually ill, i would have serious words with them, because at the end of the day it is them that are for one, making you work harder (no crewrest) and two, effectively taking money away from the company that could go in your pocket in one way or another(Airshare, payrise etc...))

Also, why did your union first support the offer made and then change its mind(do they know what you want)? To me they seem totally incapable of what you pay them to do and would seriously think about writing some strong letters to them to tell them to sort thier act out.

Lastly i would say this. Personally i dont think you made the right choice, you would have done better to accept this offer then fight for your conditions at a later date, because now you will recieve the same 2% that everyone got because the impact this will have on the company is negligable. I do think that your are under paid but feel that alot you forget that if you include all those allowances(yes i know they are going down before anyone gripes) then it is NOT THAT BAD. Again i will say you are underpaid and think you should get more but 4.8% is pretty good in my book. Keep getting that every 2 years or so and you'll have all the flight deck swapping jobs, i daresay alot of you could do theirs.:}

I also know that i'm now going to be told that when it comes down to mortgages etc... its the basic that counts and what you can get with a basic of £11,000 is the best part of bugger all. But am i right in saying that now you can include your allowances for this type of stuff and wasn't that part of th deal (please correct me if i'm wrong, i'm not totally sure about this).

You know what, i'm gonna carry on as i'm on a roll.

If this is all correct, if 4.8% is good enough on the Pay increase, Basic and trip pay etc.... the problem must lie with the conditions that are included with it.

Can some one list these so that i can understand better. What is the problem with standby????

This is the last bit, honestly. I think that this whole affair has aready done so much damage to our business, not publically or monitary but from within and to its own staff and i mean everyone. Unfortunately there are quite a few people especially on this site that dont think before they say or write things and when it come to peoples livelyhood they should. Alot of people are calling these select few people CREW as a whole and the whole crew will suffer as a result.
(Sorry if that does not make any sense, i've been up all night and i'm tired).

And finally as spacecadet put it, the mangement should never have left it to get to this point. If only they had tried to speak to you properly and understand and not throw their handbag out of the pram:{ and slip in a dig at the end of each letter they write to you, then i feel this could have all been avoided and i could be asleep by now.

Again please correct me if i am wrong regarding anything and probably everything i have said.

Good afternoon, good evening and GOODNIGHT:zzz:

[vs_lhr]

If people who carry out this action increase the company's offer, will those people who do not back the strike, surrender any increase over 2%?

No, it would need to be equitable otherwise it would be discriminatory.

From the BBC News this morning;
Thousands of workers are being short-changed by firms who refuse to pay the national minimum wage, a survey for union organisation the TUC found.
Around 150,000 staff are being denied rate of £5.52 an hour for adults and £4.60 for 18 to 21-year-olds, it says.

Those in restaurants, hotels, cleaning, hairdressing and childcare were said to be the most likely to be underpaid.

Puts your rather privileged part-time jobs into perspective. Just think, you could have your hand down a toilet every day for five and a half quid and hour. Hmmm... A few trips a month abroad.

For those withoutthe data, the CAA list the average crew earning for each airline they are:-

BMI 12.9K VS 13.3K XL 15.1K Thomas Cook 15.4K Monarch 15.5K Thompson 15.7K My travel 16.5K ist Choice 18.7 K Easyet 19.3K and......................B.A. 27.9K !!!

This intrigued me, as I've never seen the CAA data before, and the figures you provide seems to contradict first-hand reports posted here. But I've searched CAA.co.uk, and couldn't find reference to this. Please provide a link so we can verify your findings. Of course, what this ignores is the package, benefits and terms and conditions of employment. How many trips does that Easyjet crew have to do? Does anyone here currently with VS really want to be shuttling hen parties between Luton and Amsterdam from here to eternity?

Nobody denies that BA crew earn more; and few would deny that VS crew deserve more. I really do support the crew's desire to earn something closer to the BA rates. However, I also think the increments should be in manageable steps, and that some compromise needs to be made by crew to allow for the increase in salaries. Standby has to change - if for no other reason because of the hideous amount of sickness in crew, and that's a problem of your own making. Benefits will also have to be looked at. It's a simple case of not having your cake and eating it.

The situation we're in now, however, is that greed has pushed everyone in the company into a difficult and dangerous position. Not only will Airshare be in jeopardy, but also other peoples salaries and indeed jobs if the strike bites too hard. The most ludicrous situation is that there still is no clear indication of what the crew demand actually is. Until the crew can say, with one clear voice, exactly what they want, we're in the same situation as the previous negotiation rounds where the union and the company both thought they had agreement.

Now it has reached this stage, neither side can afford to blink first. If the crew give in, then the company know their future negotiations will be powerless. If the company give in, then staff know all they have to do is threaten strikes and that'll cripple the company eventually. Both sides have much to lose, but my guess is the company can ride this out far longer than the crew. Are you ready for the long haul? Pun intended.

Apparently the Virgin Atlantic dollies are downing tools in January. I wonder what Sir Dickie will do about this? I think the management will capitulate as they're well know to have poor pay when compared to other UK crew. I believe they're planning two 48 hour actions.

Er... Have you read any of the previous 6 pages of posts? :rolleyes:

[TightSlot]

Thread now closed - continues HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=305570)