Stapleford -nice airfield but what a fuss

[tmmorris]

Went to Stapleford for the first time yesterday. Nice airfield, good coffee (but get some better buns!), friendly welcome, &c. All good, though a little busy for just an A/G frequency.

But when I rang for PPR I nearly didn't bother - the a/g operator I spoke to attempted to teach me to suck eggs over the phone, even stopping to insist I repeat several times that the circuit was flown on QNH not QFE, and explaining to me the limitations of an A/G service.

I don't know if he has had particular problems with the RAF before, or just a hangup, but he appeared to assume that because I was flying from a military airfield I wouldn't be able to cope with Stapleford. Which makes a number of unwarranted assumptions - after all, I trained at Welshpool, which was just as busy and uncontrolled as Stapleford...

Tim

[chevvron]

I suppose it could be that some A/G operators try to be FISOs in the same way some FISOs try to be ATCOs. Seriously though, it's probably a local requirement (maybe written into the airfield's planning permission) that all visitors must obtain a thorough briefing from the aerodrome authority, and the AD authority delegate this to the radio operator.
I remember being briefed at Elstree once on the noise abatement departure procedure; the guy was standing about 3 feet away from me and shouting loud enough for the whole airfield to hear!!

[tmmorris]

Maybe, though the only specific question I asked - about noise abatement - he didn't answer (just said it would take too long) - which argues that it couldn't have been about planning permission!

Tim

[JW411]

I visit Stapleford fairly frequently and always ring up first. I have never had a problem.

[Jodelman]

I find the A/G operator at Stapleford very good - he knows the limits of his authority. He must, however, get very fed up with transitting aircraft asking for clearance above the top of the ATZ.

[3 Point]

Why the fuss about QFE/QNH? As far as I can see, provided I fly my circuit at the correct height above the aerodrome in accordance with their local requirements and match the flow of other traffic what does it matter which altimeter datum I use and what reading I have on the instrument to achieve that? That is a matter for me in my own cockpit to decide.

Anyway, who flies visual circuits on QNH (I mean in the UK)?

Just my tuppence worth!

3 Point

[Chilli Monster]

Anyway, who flies visual circuits on QNH (I mean in the UK)?

99.9% of commercial operators doing training and most people who've progressed beyond having a bare PPL.

Well - you did ask ;)

[3 Point]

I suppose I should have anticipated such a reply! :D

I was of course asking in the context of flying light aeroplanes (and perhaps helicopters) at small airfields such as Stapleford in the visual circuit!

I fly visual circuits in my Airbus on QNH for a number of very good reasons none of which apply in the above situation! However the spirit of the question is relevant - provided I fly at the correct vertical level to comply with local circuit procedures what business is it of anyone else which altimeter setting datum I choose to use?

3 Point

[tangovictor]

i agree with 3 point, in fact I thought only the Military used QFE

[tmmorris]

I wonder what would have happened if I'd requested QFE from the a/g operator?!

T

[pembroke]

Only a small point, but we were asked to park on the far(south) side of R28, and had to call again to be told to cross the active runway on foot! The yellow tabards no doubt helped. Also I wish all grass strips would follow Goodwood's example and clearly mark the run-up area and hold points.

[3 Point]

The UK military use QFE for instrument approaches as well as for visual flying; in a single pilot, high workload cockpit under IFR it is good to know how high you are above touchdown! In former Soviet countries they use QFE for instrument approaches as well, probably for the same reason.

I think however that most people fly visual circuits in light aeroplanes using QFE in order to have the altimeter display height above touchdown.

I frequently fly in the CIS countries under IFR in my Airbus and they give us clearances during the intermediate and final approach to heights in Metres. We then use a conversion table to convert this to an altitude in feet and fly to that. The aeroplane is at the correct level to satisfy the profile and we are looking at a familiar picture (i.e. altitude in feet) in the cockpit. My point is that it is not the ATC/Aerodrome operator's business to tell me what to set on my altimeter; it is for them to tell me at what level they want the aeroplane and it is then for me to use available tools and appropriate techniques to achieve that.

I suspect that the A/G operator at Stapleford was actually trying to say "we fly circuits at XXXX feet altitude" in order to avoid pilots setting QFE as is usual practice in light aircraft and then flying XXXX feet height which would put them too high by the airport elevation (don't know what that is at Stapleford). I am sure that Pooley's has a clear statement on the appropriate circuit height (or altitude) to use at Stapleford but, again I say it is for the pilot to decide (or the operator in commercial situations) what altimeter setting to use and what figure to see on the instrument to put the aeroplane in the correct piece of sky!

It's a complex business altimetry and needs to be approached in a very methodical way with only precise use of terminology!

Happy landings

3 Point

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

I flew across the top of Stapleford a few weeks ago routing via LAM. Called up to announce my presence (note, not asking for clearance!) and got a very short reply from the self important nob of an 'A/G Operator' to say along the lines of that if I wasnt in their ATZ to clear off and dont bother them.:ugh:

Sounds like another Elstree.....

[fireflybob]

One reason for flying QNH is to avoid inadvertantly climbing into the base of controlled airspace (eg London TMA) on departure - I believe there was one out of Biggin Hill in the not too distant past.

I am not going to get into the QFE/QNH debate which is as old as aviation itself!

[3 Point]

Yes fireflybob, as I said there are many reasons why a pilot might choose QNH in some circumstances and QFE in others; airspace above is one very good reason for choosing QNH. That argument is as old as the hils and I'm not trying to re-ignite it.

My point is that it is not the business of the A/G operator (or even an ATCer) to tell a Pilot what altimeter datum to use. Rather, it is the pilot's business to use appropriate tools to put his aeroplane in the right bit of sky.

Happy landings

3 point

[chevvron]

fireflybob: I watched one out of Biggin about 0920 this morning do precisely that; heading south east (L2K?) climbed to 2.7 where the base was 2.5 and later changed to 0017 squawk.

[tmmorris]

The other benefit of IAPs on QFE is that when you suddenly find yourself flying one in the dark in Baghdad, it's exactly the same as you do at home in Blighty.

T

[trafficcontrol]

I rang up to get PPR and a brief, and when I was asked had I flown into the airfield before, and I stated no it was my first time, I was met with a sigh..and a "oh dear" :hmm:

I was told about the strict noise control proceedures in force and to make sure I was fully briefed. I can't remember which runway it was on, but having looked at the poolyes and the AIP before departure, I found just a standard circuit.

The initials to the flight made me feel very unwelcome as a first timer into the airfield and made out to be as if Stapleford was the most complicated airfield in the world. - Knowing it wasn't - we set off!

Luckily for me, :-) I had a very nice bacon sandwich and once there, the sun was shinning and everyone was very friendly. I am glad we made the visit and would go back again. I was just a little concerned about the remarks right at the start. "Oh dear" very off putting - you gotta go once to go again right?

I spoke to the guy before we departed anyway and he certainly was a nice old chap, and yes did make it very clear more than once that he was ONLY AG! I suppose it comes from experience on his side. :-)

TC

[Mikehotel152]

The noise abatement stuff is pretty easy as you just avoid villages and big farms.

It's the pylons and mast on final for 22 and 04 respectively that alter circuits quite a bit. I still end up high on final for other runways because of my early days at Stapleford.

Must try harder, must try harder, must try harder...:ugh:

[tmmorris]

I didn't notice the mast causing any problems, I must say, unless you are very low on approach. Perhaps people are trying to fly a 3 deg approach? VFR that's unnecessary.

The circuits seemed very large but I guess that's endemic to small airfields these days. Certainly I was late downwind before I spotted the other guy on downwind, who had been about .5 miles to my right!

trafficcontrol - yes, that's definitely the chap I spoke to!

Tim

[TotalBeginner]

got a very short reply from the self important nob of an 'A/G Operator' to say along the lines of that if I wasnt in their ATZ

Yes, one of the operators likes to inform you weather or not you're going to be "within the ATZ" and the language he uses is very confusing!

I remember not long ago routing BPK-LAM-DET. Called up to inform them that I would be transitting the overhead at 2200 (QNH) and to request traffic information. The reply was "Roger, you'll be in our ATZ at that altitude report changing frequency".

Firstly, this statement was incorrect. The airfield elevation is 185ft which would be put me 5 feet above the ATZ (splitting hairs I know). But what I couldn't understand was what he was implying. The reason I chose 2200 as cruise altitude, is because I like to have more than a 100ft buffer when flying below the LTMA (nothing to do with my flying, honest!) What I couldn't work out was if he was just giving me information, or was he suggesting that I was doing something wrong? I responded by saying "roger, climbing to 2400ft will report leaving the freq."

I was really baffled, so after returning I gave them a call. They said it's common practice at stapleford to inform pilots for imformation purposes only :rolleyes:

[Pianorak]

I wonder what would have happened if I'd requested QFE from the a/g operator?! T
Ask and thou shalt be given it. At least I was recently. ;)

[IO540]

On the rare occassions I've been to Stapleford I've found it a complete free for all, with people cutting me up from the left, from the right, and some of them appeared to have instructors aboard. However, I did turn up at a weekend.

[SD.]

It can get quite busy at Stapleford at the weekends. Most mornings, you'll find the AG operator that's mentioned above, in the afternoons you'll get a more helpful voice over the frequency. :ok:


Noise abatement is try not to overfly the town of Abridge, and 04/22 each has it's own noise abatement procedures.

On departure of 04, turn right heading 050 over head the M25. That keeps you away from an irate farmer on the upwind of 04. The rest is a normal pattern, downwind is between the M11 and Abridge. I like to keep over 750' QNH on final until I'm past the mast, then descend as normal.

With 22, turn left to 200 at 300' QNH to keep you away from the mast on the upwind and then its a normal circuit. If you cross the M25 at 400' QNH on final, it should bring you in nicely for the displaced threshold on 22.

Weekends can get very busy and they like us to use standard overhead joins, weekdays you can normally join downind or even on base if it's not too busy. Parking is on the southside of 10/28 and a quick walk over the runway to the club house.

[TractorBoy]

Being based at Stapleford, I've never had to call for PPR, but the lecture the OP got seemed a bit harsh, and I wouldn't have blamed you for going somewhere else. My comments on Stapleford would be -

1) QFE / QNH - never understood why they don't like using QFE. The small number of places I've been to are happy to use both

2) Noise abatement - a right royal pain in the b*tt at Stapleford. If you look at the official circuit patterns (as far as I can see, the only place you can find it is in reception - not very helpful), it actually takes you out of the ATZ at one point. Bomber circuits ? Pah ! Luxury. Add to that skirting Abridge and all the little dinks you have to make to avoid a couple of particularily angry Nimbys, then you get the biggest headache going trying to stick to it. To make matters worse, there's now a notice in reception that says to "Keep Circuits Tight", as too many people extend the downwind leg ( as per NA notice) !!! Make your mind up, guys and gals !!!

3) A/G station - the number of times I've been in the circuit and people call up and ask for Flight information service and other non A/G services is ridiculous. No wonder the radio operators there get hacked off with it !!!

4) Cut up in circuit - happens all the time. It's a VERY busy school - especially at weekends.

For me, thats the main problem with Stapleford. It's a school, not a club. That's why I'm looking round another location in the SE.

[Mikehotel152]

Just replying to tmmorris regarding the mast and pylons on 04 and 22 finals respectively.

The positioning of those two obstructions does effect your height on final because you have to be 800ft over them according to club guidelines. Normally you'd be more like 600-700ft at that distance from the threshold.

There was a chap a year ago who lost most of his tail empennage (he didn't notice much until he had landed :confused:) by going to low on 22. That story, together with an instructor's shouts, has a lasting effect :O.

The circuits are far too big, partly due to NA procedures, but mainly because it's a flying school and low hour pilots seem to struggle with normal circuits. Personally I'd love to tighten the circuit, but so often you're behind someone else who is going wide and long so you're hamstrung. Annoys the hell out of me, but the alternative is to turn early leading to accusations of cutting up etc etc...:(