Role of safety pilot

[neilr]

Hi
I have a couple of question around the use of a safety pilot that I hope somebody will help me understand (and settle an argument :))

If a pilot (flying) with either an IMC or IR rating in order to maintain currency is operating under the hood (so with restriction vision) in VMC with a safety pilot then my understanding is the following

- the safety pilot must be a licensed pilot, not necessarily an instructor - and is responsible for looking out

- the pilot flying (under the hood) remains the captain and would log this flight as P1

- the pilot not flying (safety pilot) is NOT the captain and is NOT operating the aircraft in any capacity and therefore is unable to log any of this time


However the confusion arises because technically the safety pilot IS responsible for the safety of the flight (or is he) in terms of avoidance of other aircraft, terrain clearance, remaining clear of cloud, etc, etc - all responsibilities of the captain of the flight - I guess another way to put it is who is held accountable in the event of an accident

Any thoughts .... Thanks Neil

[DFC]

The pilot flying is the pilot manipulating the controls.

The safety pilot is the pilot who performs the required functions such as lookout, monitoring the pilot flying undert the hood and if necessary takes control of the aircraft should it be required eg pilot flying suffers disorientation or is about to fly into a hill.

The pilot in command is one of the above who accepts the responsibility for the safety of the flight.

Note that accepting responsibility for something and actually doing it are two totally separate things.

The pilot flying could be the pilot in command and by instructing you to perform the role of safety pilot and ensuring that you do it, has ensured the safety of the flight in that respect. If they get disorientated or you see the need for avoiding action and you take control, they are still the pilot in command and are still responsible for the safety of the aircraft. You are simply manipulating the controls as they requried to acheive safety.

Provided that the flight is in VMC then both pilots do not need an IMC or IR. If at any stage the flight is in IMC then both pilots need an IMC or IR.

Depending on the aircraft type and the view limiting device(s) used, there may be a requirement for an observer also.

Regards,

DFC

[neilr]

Thanks DFC for the quick response

I guess specifically the question that came up recently was in relation to logging hours

Just to go a little deeper into this - here is my understanding

- there can only be one commander or captain on an aircraft

- the logbook owner has various operating capacities

(a) P u/t - used when under instruction - hours recorded in dual column, captain is the instructor and his name goes in that column

(b) P1s - may also be used under instruction for example checkride - hours recorded in PIC column, instructor or examiner is captain and his name goes in that column

(c) P1 - obvious - so as in (b) - use PIC column but this time you are the captain


So from your explanation (and apologies if I miss quote you) - the command pilot can be either the PF (pilot flying) or the safety pilot.

- so if the PF is commander then its simple - case (c) above

- if the safety pilot is commander then his name should go in the PF logbook as captain - so what does the PF log and what if anything does the safety pilot log

Thanks again Neil

[bookworm]

If at any stage the flight is in IMC then both pilots need an IMC or IR.

Accepting for a moment that by "in IMC" you mean conditions beyond the licence privileges of a basic PPL, what's your basis for requiring the safety pilot to have an instrument qualification.

[neilr]

I believe you would be correct bookworm - safety pilot does not need IR/IMC - and actually if in IMC then the simulated IR exercise is now over - no need for hood

[DFC]

The aircraft has to have dual controls and the safety pilot has to be appropriately qualified.

If the flight is a mix of VMC and IMC then the safety pilot has to be capable of taking control at any stage. If not qualified to fly in IMC then what is the pilot under the hood going to do?..........take the hood off and put it back on as soon as you enter or leave IMC?

A pilot is required to maintain an adequate lookout for 100% of the flight time there is no relaxation in the law for flight in IMC!

If the safety pilot was not qualified for flight in IMC then they would be required to take control and avoid flight in IMC. i.e. the flight would never enter IMC.

To say "we will take the hood off if we enter IMC" leaves the question of who is flying the aircraft while one pilot is removing the hood etc etc.

If you need the practice i.e. you are not suficiently up to speed then there is also the question of should you enter IMC at all unless the safety pilot can take over and happily fly in IMC from the right seat.

Regards,

DFC

[DFC]

NeilR,

Since the introduction of JAR-FCL, the logbook has no "holder's operating capacity column". Time is logged as Pilot in command, co-pilot or dual.

In this case, one pilot loggs the flight as pilot in command and the other loggs the time as co-pilot.

See the following definition of co-pilot with my emphasis;


“Co-pilot” means a pilot operating other than
as pilot-in-command, an aircraft for which more
than one pilot is required under the list of types
of aeroplanes (see Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL
1.220) or the type certification of the aircraft, or
the operational regulations under which the flight
is conducted, but excluding a pilot who is on
board the aircraft for the sole purpose of
receiving flight instruction for a licence or rating.

The operating regulations require two pilots. Two pilots must record their presence and relative roles on the flight.

Note that this does not apply to being a safety pilot for a person who holds a medical limitation. There is different guidance in JAR-FCL 1 regarding that.

Regards,

DFC

[bookworm]

an additional pilot (in this rule called a ‘safety pilot’) is carried in a second control seat of
the aircraft for the purpose of providing assistance to the pilot flying the aircraft;

There are many ways of providing assistance. There is no requirement that the safety pilot take control of the aircraft, particularly not in IMC. There is, further, no requirement for a pilot to have an instrument or IMC rating unless they are pilot-in-command.

Your advice may be prudent, DFC, but I don't think it's backed up by regulation.

[Fuji Abound]

The safety pilot is the pilot who performs the required functions such as lookout, monitoring the pilot flying undert the hood and if necessary takes control of the aircraft should it be required eg pilot flying suffers disorientation or is about to fly into a hill.

Define the job of a safety pilot?

If the flying pilot is IRed, but behind screens or foggles, he wants the safety pilot to keep a look out. He may want him to perform other functions, but he may not. If he does not, it would seem pretty pointless for the safety pilot to have to hold a IRing before the flying pilot entered IMC.

[neilr]

Thanks again DFC

My current logbook actually pre-dates JAR-FCL, although I have recently bought a new one that is in accordance with JAR-FCL.

It still does have a column listed "holders operating capacity" and in the instructions for completion offers the following alternatives

PIC - obvious
SPIC - student pilot in command
PICUS- pilot in command under supervison

It does however have the addional columns for PIC, Co-pilot and Dual

Anyway - you have answered my orginal question .... so thanks

[DFC]

Bookworm,

The legal situation is that the safety pilot must be legally capable of assisting the pilot under the hood if required.

A pilot who can not legaly fly the aircraft in IMC can not legally assist the pilot under the hood if the flight is in IMC.

Regards,

DFC

[Fuji Abound]

DFC

Surely if this were the case the legislation would say the "the safety pilot must be legally capable of flying the aircraft .. .. .."

Presumably the draftsman used the word "assisting" for some reason when he could have said "legally capable" if that is what he meant.

Curious.

Are you relying on something more than Bookworm's quote?

[DFC]

Surely if this were the case the legislation would say the "the safety pilot must be legally capable of flying the aircraft .. .. .."

No because that would limit the scope of "assisting".
What about map reading, navigation, radio etc etc etc

Legally if you do not hold a current IR or IMC then you are not in any way capable of flying an aircraft in IMC. That is the legal position. The ANO deals with the legal aspects only.

Thus since it is impossible to predict in advance what assistance would be required, it is reasonable to expect that the safety pilot would be able to assist in every way during the whole period of the simulated instrument flight.

If whipping the hood off was an option then there would not be a need for dual controls. Safety pilot shouts hood off, recover or avoiding action turjn rignt descendand you do that........not realistic even in VMC.

Regards,

DFC

[Fly-by-Wife]

Where is a safety pilot actually necessary?

PIC, under the hood in VMC outside controlled airspace - safety pilot required to maintain lookout to comply with requirements for VFR operations.

PIC, under the hood in IMC (note the tautology) outside controlled airspace - no safety pilot required. Think about it! PIC can fly IFR in IMC perfectly legally on his IMC / IR rating without anyone else in the aircraft.

It would be prudent to obtain a RAS (or whatever it is now called), but not a requirement for the latter situation. The debate has been done on pprune before, and will be again.

Again, whether it is advisable to be flying in IMC if not current (even with a valid rating) is an entirely separate issue.

Completely different if in controlled airspace, of course.

Then the flight would simply be IFR, and again the presence or otherwise of a safety pilot is immaterial - it is now ATC responsibility for separation.

Regarding the logging of time - unless one pilot is an instructor and the other a sudent, then only one pilot can log the time. It doesn't matter which, as long as the time logged is appropriate for the ratings held. A non-IMC/IR rated pilot could not log any IMC time, for example.

DFC does come out with some amazing drivel, btw.

fbw

[DFC]

Fly-by-Wife,

Please tell us where the requirement to maintain an adequate lookout is not required in IMC. The rules of observing traffic and avoiding collisions apply in all flight conditions.

unless one pilot is an instructor and the other a sudent, then only one pilot can log the time. It doesn't matter which, as long as the time logged is appropriate for the ratings held. A non-IMC/IR rated pilot could not log any IMC time, for example.

Ever heard about a part of the law requiring more than one pilot?

Simulated instrument flight is one such example......it requires two pilots even in a C150. See JAR-FCL for definition of co-pilot.

A basic PPL can put on a hood and fly in simulated IMC provided that they have a safety pilot. They can log the flight time by sole reference to instruments as such.........to do otherwise would be to make a false logbook entry.

If their safety pilot is IR or IMC qualified and is the pilot in command they can even do so in IMC and in controlled airspace.

What they can not do is claim that time towards an IMC or JAR-IR rating.

Perhaps you need to differentiate between logging time and claiming experience when applying for a licence or rating.

Regards,

DFC

[BHenderson]

For logging as a safety pilot use: 'SNY' (Supernumerary) and put the time in a spare column or in comments.

Ref: LASORS 2007 Section A Appendix B

[DFC]

Is that safety pilot as required by the pilot holding a medical which has such a limitation or a safety pilot which is required by the regulation under which the aircraft is operated.

Two different situations. Two different requirements for logging the flight.

Regards,

DFC

[bookworm]

A pilot who can not legaly fly the aircraft in IMC can not legally assist the pilot under the hood if the flight is in IMC.

A pilot without a valid IR or IMC-rating can legally "fly the aircraft in IMC". He cannot fly as pilot-in-command.

Please tell us where the requirement to maintain an adequate lookout is not required in IMC.

Your reference to "lookout" is not relevant here. A pilot flying by reference to instruments during an operational IFR flight is undoubtedly not maintaining a good lookout. The requirement is not to "lookout" but rather to "take all possible measures to ensure that his aircraft does not collide with any other aircraft". That has to be taken with reasonableness and in context -- the only way of satisfying the rule literally is to leave the aircraft in the hangar.

[DFC]

Bookworm,

You and I probably know several people who are not pilots and not even students who can fly the aircraft on instruments in IMC.

However, the law is very black and white and according to the law the only person who can fly an aircraft in IMC is the holder of a valid IMC or IR rating.

That is the legal position. To have it otherwise would legitimise basic PPLs flying through cloud.

From a legal point of view therefore, unless the safety pilot is qualified they according to the law are not capable of performing the actions that may be required of them.

If you were to go down the road of not needing to be qualified for the conditions, where do you draw the line? Is you passenger good enough to keep an eye on you because you are not current?

Regards,

DFC

[Kit d'Rection KG]

DFC,

Care to provide any references for your many 'expert opinions' given above? :confused:

Or are they just waiting to go brown or black... You know; recyclable or landfill? :8

:=

[Kit d'Rection KG]

...or to misquote (again) one of the all-time-best flying films:

:hmm:

DFC, your keyboard's writing cheques that your intellect can't cash. :=

:hmm: