Jar Fcl 1.080 - Copilot/picus

[captain_toga]

Have read through previous posts and JAR 1.080 thoroughly but still hitting my head against a brick wall.

Has anyone spoke with the UK CAA and managed to understand the following...

Flying a multi-crew aircraft as First Officer. Should all flying time be logged as "COPILOLT" and in addition any sectors where Pilot Flying also be logged as "PILOT-IN-COMMAND" (u/s)

OR

When flying as PNF - log as "COPILOT" and when flying as PF log as "PIC" (u/s)


It also still doesn't exactly explain what is PICUS (is this training flights only or when generally acting as PF)?

Lastly if anyone has had applied for their ATPL(a) without signatures I would be grateful if to hear what the CAA where prepared to accept - is company stamp and signature sufficient?

Thanks

[alexban]

We are logging all fo flight as 'copilot'
After one promotes to captain, it will fly from the left seat some legs with a TRI ,logging PICUS.

[captain_toga]

Thanks but as my understanding is, for issue of the ATPL you must have 100hrs PIC (gained from ppl/cpl training) and a further 150hrs of PICus - total 250hours.

And i doubt there are many FO's at 1500 hours going for command upgrade therefore logging the time as you say, however plenty of people are getting their ATPL issued with 1500 hours...

What you say makes sense of the expression PIC under supervision though!

[BOAC]

PIC in reality has nothing to do with 'PF', other than you should conduct the t/off and landing. You can be PIC and PNF for the rest of the flight if you choose. The whole idea of 'PICUS' is that the co-pilot acts 'as Captain' in terms of decisions and management of the flight, and it should only be 'signed up' as PICUS if no intervention was required.

To paraphrase from a major airline's book:
"The F/O....
a) is responsible for completing and checking the Teck Log, accuracy of the FP, load sheet and fuel calcs (NB Captain still signs l/s and T/L)
b) Ensures all crew checks are done correctly
c) carries out all the duties of PIC inc t/o and ldg
d) resolves all communication, met and ATC problems
e) The Captain does not have to overrule any course of action taken"

[alexban]

"PICUS (Pilot-in-command under
supervision)
Provided that the method of supervision
is acceptable to the Authority, a co-pilot may
log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS"


you may see that it must be a method of supervision acceptable by the authority _ often means you have to be with a TRI/TRE ,or you must be in an upgrade program already...you should check with your CAA.

[captain_toga]

Ok but for example how could the following example work...

Ab-Initio cadet comes out of flight school with 200 hours - 100hours PIC
Gets a job with ryanair for example straight on 737
Flys as normal FO in right seat for 3 years and accumulates 2500hours - all as COPILOT
Company decides to upgrade said FO to Captain
FO completes command course which in reality would consist approx 20 sectors - lets be generous and say each sector 2 hours so 40hours PICUS
FO passes line check but yet can't satisfy requirement of having 100hours PIC and 150hours PICUS, therefore can't get ATPL therefore can't be a captain......

Most probably im missing something here but you get my point!

[alexban]

I was on that kind of loop some years ago.....3000 hrs on the 737 ,not enaugh PIC hrs (very few on GA planes) .
So, after doing the cpt course I had to fly a number of 250 hrs with TRI (flying from left seat)- with a dual seat FO license.
After that I flew another 100 hrs as PICUS and that was all.
This is what was requested by our CAA (JAA member).
We have also FO's in the same situation now. For them to get the ATPL the CAA request 100 hrs as PIC and another something (around 100, I think) hours flew with TRE's agreed by the CAA (this hrs can be logged as PICUS)

[BOAC]

In the UK PICUS can be conducted by any Captain, Line or Training.

[captain_toga]

BOAC

So there is no special requirement as such - i.e. on any normal line flight I can say to the captain I want this sector to be PICUS and just get him to sign it so? Some of my friends are logging all their PF sectors as PICUS

thanks

[BOAC]

toga - my understanding is that as long as Post#4 is complied with, yes. Just 'doing a sector' does not count.That is for UK. I would check with both your company ops manual and your regulatory authority.

[alexban]

why would you log as PICUS? As long it is not in accordance with a method agreed by your CAA it is useless. So, check with your CAA...Where I fly, even if we are full JAA ,logging PICUS whenever you fly PF it won't be taken into account. You have to be in an upgrade program and to fly with an instructor agreed by the CAA.

[FliegerTiger]

Well, I've just submitted my application for ATPL to the CAA, with all hours flown as PF countersigned by the Captains as PICUS. As far as I know, that's how it's done (at least here in the UK), will let you know if any problems.

FT

[tescoapp]

From what i can tell its done different ways by each JAR CAA.

Also in the UK its is also done differently by individual companys.

The UK never really bothered with ATPL issue and put alot more effort into the intial IR test. The ATPL was always a money and paper work exercise.

Over the last 10 years its gone from no multi type required to just an LPC nothing special, now it has to be a LST and the examiner has to sign the form.

Some of the european crew I have flown with had to do a special LHS command check ride with thier external CAA TRE at great expense I might add.

I have had friends in the UK who have paid for a LST out of thier own pocket because the company increases salary on issue of ATPL and they had only got the hours in the month after their LPC. Ther company won't let them do an LST instead of a OPC the next time in the sim.

The PICUS business is also treated very differently by different Captains. Some are of the opinion that the FO is never the PIC supervised or otherwise in thier aircraft. You won't have a chance in hell of them signing anything.

Some companys will only let you log it while flying with a TRI/TRE others with line trainers. And others don't care and what you log is your problem.

I never heard of anyone getting grief with the PIC requirment, a few have had problems with night hours when they were very close to the min requirment.

But I should imagine that things may change in the future once things get centralised for europe. For UK licensed pilots I should imagine things will get alot more difficult with postal times and the interpration of the rules in a different country.

I am very glad I have got everything out of the way before next year I suspect its going to cause alot of people some grief before everything settles down.

[Agaricus bisporus]

BOAC has laid out the requirements for signing an FO off as P1u/s as is required in UK.

It is clearly a fudge, and imho downright impudent for an FO to just hand the Capt his logbook at the end of the day and expect a signature - as often happens in my company.

P1u/s can surely only be achieved and signed if it has been discussed and briefed in advance, and the FO has carried out all the requirements laid down by BOAC to a satisfactory level.

Treating it as a "tick in the box" exercise is simply falsifying a logbook, I reckon.

[springbok449]

In the UK, normally the company you fly for has an agreement with the CAA that when you fly as co-pilot and that you are handling the sector you log it as P1 U/S (PICUS).

There is no need for the captain to sign your logbook after every flight as when you send your docs away to the CAA to un-freeze your ATPL you send it along with a letter from your Chief Pilot or Line Manager in which he certifies that your hours are correct.

Every country has its own sets of rules even within the JAR states.

[tescoapp]

Maybe the CAA are just applying a bit of common sense?

The PICUS only seems to be an issue with a select few airlines. And funny enough those airlines tend to have a reasonable wait for command and/or there are pay upgrades after ATPL issue.

Most ex instructors have no problem with the PIC requirment as they have got the hours banging the circuit or showing trial flights their houses all in reasonably good VFR wx, no load sheet, a photo copy sheet for a tech log.

Not much training I think for the demands of commanding a multi crew CAT aircraft.

I wonder just how many companys do have approval for PICUS in the UK. I expect you would be lucky to make it onto your second hand and definately wouldn't require your shoes off.

[Maude Charlee]

I'm due for an upgrade to the green book as soon as I'm prepared to pay the CAA their blood money for the 3rd issue of a licence in as many months, and as I understand it, every sector flown as PF can be logged as PICus, and all PNF as Copilot. No signatures required, a letter from my DFO confirming hours flown is sufficient.

My only question at present though, is what happens when you have (as I do) an electronic logbook. Do I need to present a hard copy of sectors flown, or a download of my logbook?

[tescoapp]

MC

As I understand it, every sector flown as PF can be logged as PICus, and all PNF as Copilot

Well this is the problem. Everything BOAC says is correct.

There is part of the industry which seems to stick to what the rule book says and the other part that just ignores it.

The fact that the part which does as BOAC describes is the part which there is little problem with pilots getting the green book. The time to command means that they will have far in excess of the experences levels by the time the upgrade comes along. These company's proberly have spent some time and money getting an SOP approved by the CAA.

There is the majority part where they really don't care but the experence levels are reasonably high at command so it really doesn't matter.

And the part of the industry which either doesn't know or doesn't care is the place where it is possible to get your upgrade on issue of your ATPL or within a thousand hours afterwards.

And all the ex instruuctors who don't care because we had the PIC in a couple of months after starting instructing.

The electronic log book needs to be downloaded, printed and each page signed that it is correct. And a letter from your flight ops saying all times are correct.

Although it has happened before that a subject has been raised on PPrune and the policy or should I say practise of the CAA has changed when the powers that be have found out what the workers at the coal face have been doing.

It will proberly all change with EASA anyway.

[springbok449]

Maude Charlee,

Correct. All sectors as PF are P1U/S (PICUS) all sectors PNF are CoPilot, Dual, etc.

As tescoapp says: you will need to download your e-logbook and sign the pages plus letter from your DFO and last but not least a big fat cheque for the CAA and job done.

[Agaricus bisporus]

As I understand it, every sector flown as PF can be logged as PICus, and all PNF as Copilot

If that really were the case what is the point of having P1u/s at all? Surely it would be simpler and more logical just to say 50% of P2 counts as P1u/s?

If the guy hasn't been solely responsible for all planning and execution of the entire flight - beginning to end, and to a satisfactory standard, how the hell can he be considered to have acted as P1? Are we really suggesting that a 250hr cadet brand new on on a 180 seat airliner is capable of doing this? So how are we justifying signing him as having acted as Captain? Just cos he waggled the stick for 20secs and then engaged the autopilot? Thats P1? Not on my watch, it ain't!

Hmmm!

[excrab]

Just to confuse the issue further, my UK CAA log book (CAP 407) defines P1 (U/S) as "co-pilot acting as pilot-in-command under the supervision of the pilot-in-command".

I am legally still pilot in command of the aircraft even if the F/O is pilot flying. Thus it obviously isn't neccessary to be PF to be P1, so by the above definition surely the F/O can be P1 (u/s) whilst also not being PF, can they not? Even if the company has something extra in the ops manual that should not effect what is acceptable to the authority which is going to issue the license.

[springbok449]

Agaricus bisporus,

Agreed that by your watch it aint but by the UK CAAs it is...

Thats the way they issue un-frozen ATPLs to cadets or ab-initio pilots who have operated commercial airliners since release from flightschool once they have the minimum requirements.

How else would you get a minimum of 500hrs PIC to qualify?

Hence the P1 U/S or PICUS route/rule...

Hope this clarifies.

By the way, am not from the CAA nor did I say that I agreed with the system.

[captain_toga]

Thanks for all the interesting and varied responses to my thread.

I have spoke with the CAA and manage to get an answer roughly as follows...

Whilst different companies and indeed captains may have ideas about what, when and with who you can log PICus, it is, as previously said, largely a means for FO's to claim their ATPL.

The CAA seem fairly relaxed about it and prepared to accept signatures against flights logged as PI(us).

Its not really a question of an FO trying to dent the "ego" of the captain, just the guy is trying to get his ATPL issued and for some reason JAR put this, in my opinion, rather stupid requirement.

Ultimately any type-rating in JAR is assessed as PIC irrespective of the licence you hold (CPL/ATPL) and whether flying as FO or Capt. You will notice that when you do get a command upgrade there is no distinction on JAR license between P1 and P2. Therefore it seems a bit stupid to make this requirement. In anycase they do and so we have to try and satisfy it!

Happy landings

[Denti]

Ultimately any type-rating in JAR is assessed as PIC irrespective of the licence you hold (CPL/ATPL) and whether flying as FO or Capt.
Don't really think that is the case, according to JAR you can get a type rating as COP only. And some administrations in JAR countries do just that. Germany for example only issues COP type rating entries into your licence if you are not checked out as a PIC.

I just think the UK CAA took a quite sensible approach and is pretty relaxed about stuff like that and rather concentrates on more important issues.

[captain_toga]

Some JAA countries do seem to ignore JAR a little - for example in Ireland if you go to the authority with a type-rating from a middle-east airline - they will add the type-rating to your JAA licence with a "middle east" restriction. However this procedure is not recognised under JAR-FCL at all.

Equally from my reading of JAR-FCL i cannot find any mention of differentiation between P1/P2 or Capt/Co-pilot as is done in some non-JAA states.

I stand to be corrected still but as far as I'm aware JAR doesn't allow for any distinction - of course a local authority will still for the moment largely apply this rules as they wish but i suspect EASA will change all of that.

[tescoapp]

Its just a set of rules which because of the range of different methods of meeting them become just hoop jumps.

There is nothing stopping a pilot of these companys which control PICUS going out and flying a spam can and building hours PIC on holiday or in 3 axis microlight Would cost about 3k for the machine and then 15 quid an hour. All done vfr and none of the hassels of doing it with the company.

If all applicants had to do 250 picus and everything was controlled and to a standard there would be some point of fighting the good cause. The current setup means the requirment is pointless to make a fuss about. You have pilots with 500 multi crew getting green books on there first LPC and pilots with 2500 hours CAT struggling and bleeding through the eyes to jump through the company hoops.