Any twin owners out there? [Archive]

Fuji Abound

9th Nov 2007, 16:13

Personally I think the FADEC system has got very little do with anything. In normal operations it saves you fiddling around with the flow rates and sync'ing the props and in abnormal ops the automatic feathering is marginally handy.

I think where the 42 "scores" is in terms of the integration of all of the systems which results in the aircraft being very easy to manage once you understand the G1000 system.

However, from the perspective of a pilot who will go on to operate other types it would be poor training for managing a more "complex" traditiional cockpit.

I think in one other aspect the 42 is unlike many twins. In my view it handles far more like a single and it is a step up to managing in the air a larger conventional twin and one with rather more inertia and speed.

sternone

9th Nov 2007, 16:13

I have to be honest and say i only flew the da-42 twinstar once, it was easy to fly.. to easy if you ask me, at least for a twin...

The props are controlled by the FADEC, so pilots don't need to worry much except start the engine and see that the props are working, i find the hp to low (the twinstar is not a high performance plane, but it is a complex)

It's my idea that in a DA42 pilots have to work less... and that is never good in training isn't it ?

Contacttower

9th Nov 2007, 17:07

It's my idea that in a DA42 pilots have to work less... and that is never good in training isn't it ?

Well it might make the IR/ME slightly more pleasant. Although I agree, from what I have seen of the DA40 life in the Diamond is maybe a little too 'easy'.

Fuji Abound

9th Nov 2007, 17:11

Well it might make the IR/ME slightly more pleasant. Although I agree, from what I have seen of the DA40 life in the Diamond is maybe a little too 'easy'.

It's just not the proper way to do things old boy when there isnt a traditional instrument in view, other than the little stand by bank. Too much like a computer game for my liking.

sternone

9th Nov 2007, 17:30

Well it might make the IR/ME slightly more pleasant.

I understand that, it's the same for example with autopilot use in IMC, it's a welcome help, but my opinion is that in a training an autopilot should not be used...

Contacttower

9th Nov 2007, 17:41

Sorry to hijack this thread, (btw Old Sarum's twin rates look pretty good;)).

Just out of interest sternone which twin would you chose (money no object) if doing a IR/ME?

sternone

9th Nov 2007, 17:47

Just out of interest sternone which twin would you chose (money no object) if doing a IR/ME?

Seneca V ? to bad it costs around 450 euro/hour wet...

Contacttower

9th Nov 2007, 17:52

Apparently the Aztec is rather under rated as a training twin...at least that's what I've heard.

Personally I aspire to owning a Baron 58, just seems like the best of the light twins.

bookworm

9th Nov 2007, 19:13

It's my idea that in a DA42 pilots have to work less... and that is never good in training isn't it ?

Possibly true, but you said hour-building, not training. I would have thought that an hour building pilot simply sets the power and leaves it.

172driver

9th Nov 2007, 19:57

While I've never really been very interested in twins - having the money, I'd go for a turbine single - what do you guys think of this (http://www.tecnam.com/ing/P2006Premio.cfm) one ? Found her while rummaging around the web a bit. Btw, you need to load the pdf's (top nav bar, P2006T) to get at the info.

deice

9th Nov 2007, 20:19

In my view the DA42 requires that you manage it precisely because it is very limited in performance, and it has a critical engine that requires a full boot to counter. OK, so it has Fadec, and it autofeathers but so do turboprops. I'd say you'll be well prepared for commuter TPs and Jets with the only downside being a necessity to relearn for PA31s and the like. But who has his mind set on them? Everyone seems to be buying ratings for jets anyway...
On the other hand training on PA34s doesn't provide you with any prep for EFIS equipped TPs or jets and it's a pussycat to handle! Did my ME on Seneca 1 with the spring rudder/aileron interconnect and anemic performance btw.
However, if you plan to purchase or hire old gear then training on them sounds reasonable, but don't dis the DA42, it's a great twin.
Ok, I'm partial... :)
ABS brakes, bah! who needs 'em, train on your Morris Minor, it's a proper automobile! :E

Fuji Abound

9th Nov 2007, 20:40

but don't dis the DA42, it's a great twin.

I dont entirely see the limited performace you suggest. Its performance seems to me similiar to many very light twins - but at least at max weight single engine it keeps going up in reasonable conditions with one engine.

critical engine that requires a full boot to counter.

Not too many light twins seem to go to the extra expense of counter rotating. However, you must be flying a different aircraft to me. I would not have said the 42 requires full boot.

I think the 42 is an excellent aircraft. It would be even better if it had more power and was faster. On the other hand I dont see it can compete with something like the Aztec, which offers far better all round performance, significantly better load carrying and significantly better all round weather capability.

However the poster asked about hour building and so I suppose the real question is what is the purpose of the hour building. If it is for the sake of hour building and the cost is an issue then presumably the cheaper the better whatever it might be - after all 50 hours in a 42 will teach you pretty much most of what you need to know about FADEC and the G1000 system - after that isnt it just another means to build hours - albeit a cheap one.

Mikehotel152

9th Nov 2007, 22:38

I ought to correct a slight and immaterial misunderstanding. I haven't got the ME yet. I was getting advice now so I can plan ahead for the new year.

I can see Sternone's point. The DA-42 is really only a DA-40 with an extra engine. It's light and I'd imagine its handling reflects that. As Fuji Abound rightly points out, it is regarded as an excellent aircraft and easy to fly and in my opinion it looks great. And while it's an easy twin to fly, it's got to be more demanding than burning holes in the sky in a 30 year old C152!

The aircraft I'll be doing my ME in - the Seneca - is an old school twin and I'm one of those masochists who likes the challenge of learning the hard way. I can certainly see the benefits of learning to fly a more demanding aircraft. I don't mind that at all.

But somewhere along the line you have to consider what is more beneficial to commercial students given the type of aircraft they'll probably end up flying for a living. In my opinion Deice has a point when s/he points out the reality of hour-building en-route to the fATPL - you're more likely to be flying EFIS equipped jets or turbo-props.

Finally, it's also worth mentioning that, while the CPL/ME at my place is Warrior/Arrow/Seneca, the subsequent IR is DA-42. Therefore the option of logging DA-42 time and becoming familar with EFIS and all that jazz before starting the IR is appealing because it might make the IR a teeny bit easier, especially as it means you come out of the whole sausage-factory with 50 hours twin/EFIS.

But, hey, what do I know! :}

sternone

10th Nov 2007, 05:33

If it is for the sake of hour building

Then the DA42 will get you more hours because it just takes you much longer to get there!

S-Works

10th Nov 2007, 08:26

I quite like flying the DA42. It does not have the promised performance, I remember all the hype about 200 kts etc. But it is a pretty honest workhorse. The glass cockpit is a breath of fresh air and a real breeze to use.

The Baron is also a darling of an aircraft and stunning performance.

However my next aircraft is going to be a piper turbo prop, the Mirage/Malibu or JetProp DLX. FL270, fast and pressurised.

sternone

10th Nov 2007, 08:30

However my next aircraft is going to be a piper turbo prop, the Mirage/Malibu or JetProp DLX. FL270, fast and pressurised.

I might conclude from an owner that the DA-42 is good, but to slow ?

Did you had engine problems ? I'm always turned off when i read the centurion stories...

Contacttower

10th Nov 2007, 09:00

However my next aircraft is going to be a piper turbo prop, the Mirage/Malibu or JetProp DLX. FL270, fast and pressurised.

How about a PC12 or a TBM 850....

sternone

10th Nov 2007, 09:03

How about a PC12 or a TBM 850....

Double in price ...

Contacttower

10th Nov 2007, 10:00

True but IMHO double the coolness :cool:.

englishal

10th Nov 2007, 10:08

Sternone,

Have you ever flown a DA42? Just curious, because you seem to know a lot about them.

They don't underperform at all in my view, probably 10 kts slower than a PA34-200T, and loads better than the Seneca 1 on one engine....by a mile. In fact I'd never fly a seneca 1 by choice, SE ceiling is about 3500'. The DA42 out performs all of the other "training" twins, for example the Seminole, and Duchess in all resepects. (I've flown them all).

I was on my way to Palm Springs last week in a DA42 at 9500' at 75% power and doing 152 kts TAS, sipping 6.1 USG of JETA per side which is not too shabby. They did promise 200+kts in the past but this was an avgas buring version which never went into production, and true there are light singles out there which will give similar performance (TB20 for example). My mate picked up a brand new one from the Diamond factory in Canada a couple of weeks ago and delivered it to Denver in 7 hours, despite IFR conditions and icing - the de-ice worked a treat during the approach, as did the XM satellite radio, XM weather and TIS traffic info.

The G1000 is brilliant, it is also excellent for airline wannabe's as is the FADEC (mow many Boeings have a prop lever?, how many jets do at all?).

sternone

10th Nov 2007, 10:32

Have you ever flown a DA42? Just curious, because you seem to know a lot about them.

They don't underperform at all in my view, probably 10 kts slower than a PA34-200T, and loads better than the Seneca 1 on one engine....by a mile. In fact I'd never fly a seneca 1 by choice, SE ceiling is about 3500'. The DA42 out performs all of the other "training" twins, for example the Seminole, and Duchess in all resepects. (I've flown them all).

I was on my way to Palm Springs last week in a DA42 at 9500' at 75% power and doing 152 kts TAS, sipping 6.1 USG of JETA per side which is not too shabby. They did promise 200+kts in the past but this was an avgas buring version which never went into production, and true there are light singles out there which will give similar performance (TB20 for example). My mate picked up a brand new one from the Diamond factory in Canada a couple of weeks ago and delivered it to Denver in 7 hours, despite IFR conditions and icing - the de-ice worked a treat during the approach, as did the XM satellite radio, XM weather and TIS traffic info.

The G1000 is brilliant, it is also excellent for airline wannabe's as is the FADEC (mow many Boeings have a prop lever?, how many jets do at all?).

I flew it only once, it's an easy bird to fly, and i look very very good to it to aquire it. I like the G1000 and the GFC700 autopilot, everybody is jealous about the very low A1 fuel burn/cost, i really hate the looks of that machine, it looks like some ugly insect, the build quality, it is soooo badly finished (like all diamond models), i don't like the center stick that much and i find the rudders feel very cheap, and whatsup with all these stories about people being grounded because there is some engine problem that only can be fixed with a laptop and special software and some rare guy that knows were to click on that software ?

Mikehotel152

10th Nov 2007, 10:53

Nice feedback :ok:

So anyone actually got a twin they be willing to hire out!? :O

Fuji Abound

10th Nov 2007, 11:14

GFC700 autopilot

I wonder where you flew it? I didnt think the GFC700 was EASA approved which is why they all seem to come fitted with the KAP140 unless you are in the States or on the N reg.

the build quality, it is soooo badly finished

Where?

being grounded because there is some engine problem that only can be fixed with a laptop and special software

I think you will find that will be true of anything with a EMU - look at most cars these days.

BackPacker

10th Nov 2007, 12:34

being grounded because there is some engine problem that only can be fixed with a laptop and special software

I think you will find that will be true of anything with a EMU - look at most cars these days.

Have to agree, for once, with sternone. Yes, cars have EMUs, but there's a zillion places where engineers have the laptop and the skills to diagnose your problem. For a Diamond (or, in fact, any Thielert-engined plane), there's only two dozen places or so in the UK where the right laptop and expertise are to be found. And the UK is then reasonably well-sorted, although at least one of the contact numbers on the Diamond website is (was) wrong. If you look at Eastern Europe, well, it's not a likely place where I'll be flying a Diamond TDI anytime soon.

I fly a DA-40 TDI, love it, but recently spent 24 hours at Duxford with an ECU B error message before we had located an engineer with the proper skills and laptop and had him flown over. About half an hour later we were on our way and for all practical purposes, he didn't even need to take off the cowling. All that was required was an ECU reset and a deferred work order.

wsmempson

10th Nov 2007, 13:04

Err, try Lembit Opik, he may be able to offer an opinion....:}

Sternone, you say in an earlier post that you are studying for a PPL....are you now ME qualified?

sternone

10th Nov 2007, 13:47

Sternone, you say in an earlier post that you are studying for a PPL....are you now ME qualified?

Ofcorse im not ME rated, but that doesn't keep me from flying with birds that i'm intrested to buy, or is it ?? Or are your criteria of flying a plane on your own, solo when you are rated for it ?

GFC700 autopilot

No, i did not fly with the gfc700 but i like the fact that it's available for the da42, kind of ****ty they don't have the EASA approval, while beechcraft has it on their A36 and the baron...

Where?

The question must be : where not ? If i had an airplane factory, and there would be planes rolling out on the quality like the diamonds are, i would them all send back, what a lousy finishing, just everywhere, it seems to be the plastic is not fitting correctly and it feels bad and not good, what do i define under good build finishing ? You know, when you drive a new porsche, you just feel and see that everything fits togheter tightly and correct, when you use something in the car you feel it's firmly and high quality, with the diamond aircraft i don't get that feeling, that is what i mean. When i saw the DA50 for the first time, i was thinking: i must stop looking at it, because the longer i will look at it, the longer i think it will fall apart, while i'm looking at it.

Mikehotel152

10th Nov 2007, 14:18

These things aren't cheap, secondhand they're about £250,000.

I'd expect a lot for that kind of money! :eek:

A and C

10th Nov 2007, 15:18

I,m just looking forward to the DH Rapide coming back on line, i can then go to Le Touquet in style............. lunch at Perard's any one?!

wsmempson

10th Nov 2007, 15:43

Quote:
"Sternone, you say in an earlier post that you are studying for a PPL....are you now ME qualified?
Ofcorse im not ME rated, but that doesn't keep me from flying with birds that i'm intrested to buy, or is it ?? Or are your criteria of flying a plane on your own, solo when you are rated for it ?"

No, it's just that when I read a statement like the one below, I'm interested to know whether that is a point of view bourne of long experience. In this instance it obviously isn't.

"And if you are hour building, please fly a real twin, like a Seneca V, Baron, ... not a DA42... i disapprove commercial student pilots learning in FADEC controlled twins..."

sternone

10th Nov 2007, 16:09

No, it's just that when I read a statement like the one below, I'm interested to know whether that is a point of view bourne of long experience. In this instance it obviously isn't.

If in life everything was only valid because people had expierenced their knowledge then we would be very far from the world we live in.

But i understand your point...must be hard to cope with it daily.

Oh, and one more thing i don't like about the DA42, there is no armrest, so in flight you just have to put your hand in your lap, i find that very annoying for long flights, but hey, that goes away when i log 1000 hour in the model right ???

englishal

10th Nov 2007, 16:40

I rent from an FTO in the USA which uses Diamonds to train commercial strudents BECAUSE of the FADEC and G1000. It provides far better airline training than say a Duchess.....

Anyway, I have flown a number of DA42's and DA40's and got to say I love them. The build quality has always been excellent in the ones I have flown, and hand in the lap is not an issue, it is far more comfortable to hold the stick with two fingers resting in the lap than a yoke, even on 600 mile legs (which I have done in the 42).

Cheap is a relative thing - about £350,000 will buy you a DA42 with ALL the bells and whistles, inc. de-ice and 02, which turns it into a real go-places machine which is not "that" bad for an aeroplane (too much for me I'm afraid though ;))

But before slagging them off, people should really go and fly a Seneca, Duchess, Seminole, Baron and DA42 and then make up their own minds....(DA42 wins it for me, and I have flown the rest ;))

soay

10th Nov 2007, 17:12

No, i did not fly with the gfc700 but i like the fact that it's available for the da42
Are you sure about that? Diamond's price list still includes the KAP 140 autopilot. The D-Jet is the only aircraft for which Diamond have announced the availability of the GFC 700, but you can't buy that yet.

The fit and finish has been excellent in the DA40s and single DA42 that I've flown. Much better than SR22s and new C172s, for example. It will never be as good as an upmarket car, because weight is the overriding factor.

Fuji Abound

10th Nov 2007, 17:16

But before slagging them off, people should really go and fly a Seneca, Duchess, Seminole, Baron and DA42 and then make up their own minds....(DA42 wins it for me, and I have flown the rest )

Personally, if it has faults I think they are:

1. A little slow for a modern twin,

2. Load carrying is not great,

3. Personally I am not convinced it deals with turbulent conditions all that well. A feature of the wing loading and the lack of inertia is that I think it will bounce its way through any turbulence as opposed to say an Aztec which will tunnel its way through - making for an uncomfortable ride when the going gets rough.

Perfect for transitioning to glass and FMS and there are those that say it behaves more like a turbine than a conventional piston.

Mikehotel152

10th Nov 2007, 17:30

Englishal rightly suggests you 'fly them all' before making up your mind which you prefer. In an ideal world I certainly would, especially if I were to win the National Lottery and £350K comes my way before my wife gets to it :p.

But when you're on a tight budget and every hour needs to build up your skills and experience in preparation for a career in jets, it really comes down to putting all ones efforts into one avenue of learning. In that sense Englishal's point about US FTOs is encouraging because it mirrors the situation with many UK based FTOs.

I'll look into hiring the DA-42 a little more because I get the distinct impression that there aren't many people who actually own twins on pprune. Perhaps that reflects the cost of ownership, limiting it to truly wealthy people or groups. Lucky buggers!

wsmempson

10th Nov 2007, 20:28

"If in life everything was only valid because people had expierenced their knowledge then we would be very far from the world we live in.

But i understand your point...must be hard to cope with it daily.

Oh, and one more thing i don't like about the DA42, there is no armrest, so in flight you just have to put your hand in your lap, i find that very annoying for long flights, but hey, that goes away when i log 1000 hour in the model right ???"

Thanks, Sternone, you've answered the question. I'm very impressed that you've managed to amass so many opinions, based on such limited flying experience.

As for the hand in the lap, i'm sure that can't be such a hardship....:}

sternone

11th Nov 2007, 01:52

As for the hand in the lap, i'm sure that can't be such a hardship....

Personally i found that a real problem, what do you think about it ?

Chuck Ellsworth

11th Nov 2007, 02:13

If the DA 42 is to easy and you want something a little more demanding to learn on how about this?

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ChuckEllsworth/aaf4e977.jpg

It's a bit more expensive but I can give you your twin rating on one if you want it. :E

Contacttower

11th Nov 2007, 03:14

It's a bit more expensive but I can give you your twin rating on one if you want it. :E

Are you serious? (I did my FAA Sea Plane rating in the C180C by the way)

Chuck Ellsworth

11th Nov 2007, 03:18

Are you serious? (I did my FAA Sea Plane rating in the C180C by the way)

Of course I'm serious however it is a bit pricey at around 3,500.00 Euro per hour.

Contacttower

11th Nov 2007, 11:50

You've got me interested....how many hours would it take do you think to do the ME on the Catalina?

Chuck Ellsworth

11th Nov 2007, 14:05

You've got me interested....how many hours would it take do you think to do the ME on the Catalina?

That is a very good question.

The simple answer is it would depend on the person being trained and how much previous flying they had done.

I would hazard a guess that with someone who was a quick learner ten hours would be possible.

Mikehotel152

11th Nov 2007, 14:25

Does it have wheels too? I'd quite like the look on my FI's face as I join overhead Stapleford in that....:E

Contacttower

11th Nov 2007, 14:29

I believe that unless it's one of rare non amphib ones most Cats have wheels.

deice

11th Nov 2007, 15:26

Sternone, fwiw, please consider that there are plenty of pilots on this site with many hours of experience on most aircraft you'll encounter in the near future, considering you're doing your PPL, and you may find that experience has a certain worth. I can't disagree with you more about the DA42, but that's because we have two in our flight school as well as three DA40s.

Good luck with your PPL.