BSc in ATC?

[aluminium persuader]

A question for UK controllers -

What's your Yellow Peril worth? What do you think is the academic equivalent?

When I was a cadet at CATC (1990-ish) I remember an attempt to get them recognised as NVQ level 4, as ATPLs were at the time, but the application was (IIRC) turned down. Now ATPLs often come wrapped up in a degree but although I believe that a fully-rated (ADC/APP/APR or Area equiv) controller is at least on a par as far as I know there is still no official academic recognition.
I know ASTAC/Bath University were planning a Foundation Degree course to start this year. Did it happen?
I know City University, London and Cranfield appear to credit an ATC licence with a min 2:1 BSC(Hons).

Is there any official line? Anyone from GATCO able to give us a clue?

Reason for asking is that I'm expecting to be working overseas in the fairly near future but lack of a degree would appear to be impedeing the visa application process. In some countries (eg Australia, S. Korea) the successful passing of the course brings a Degree or Diploma & the subsequent validation brings the licence. Should we also look for an academic award?

Over to you!

ap:hmm:

[Dan Dare]

I'm sorry, but even if it were possible to award some level of NVQ with the issue of an ATCO licence, it would not have parity with a degree, and it certainly does not come up to the academic depth that a BSc requires. Granted, you have to learn quite a few facts to gain the Yellow Peril, but you are actively discouraged from academic reasoning or thinking for yourself. You even get most of the answers presented to you in the form of multiple choice exams at the end of the course. I hope that even modern degree courses require a far greater depth of research and original thinking. They also take about 5 times as long as initial ATCO licence issue. The ATPL was only part of the requirement for issue of an NVQ level 4 (which I believe only one person was ever issued with) and the technical aspects of the ATPL also go to more depth than the pre-RGAT ATCO licence.

Despite the above, I found verbatim learning required from the MATS and Air Law incredibly difficult, maybe more so for me than the ATPL or BEng exams - do they still do this? I have also never seen any correlation whatsoever between intelligence/qualifications and controlling abilities.

It would be a good idea for us as a profession to get a more transferable or recognisable qualification though. nats no longer provide as much job security and we should each be looking at what we would do to pay the mortgage that day they hand out the P45s.

[RAAFASA]

"you have to learn quite a few facts to gain the Yellow Peril, but you are actively discouraged from academic reasoning or thinking for yourself"

Should probably recuse myself on the grounds that I'm not from the UK, but have to disagree with part of your comment.

Although we certainly do have to comply with procedures (the MATS is our bible in OZ, as well) and are expected to know them verbatim, ATC also requires the ability to think outside the box.

The procedures are our "toolbox" but it's amazing what a good ATC can build with them. I have had trainees who were word perfect theoretically really struggle with live traffic because they were unable to adapt procedures to unusual situations (emergencies, weather diversions, military training ops etc).

Having studied non aviation courses at Uni (at undergrad and postgrad level), I agree that to achieve degree status, ATC training would need to be longer, more encompassing and less prescriptive. But I think reasoning, problem solving and creativity all have a huge place in a professional ATCs day to day job. The trick is to provide the best service you can, within the framework of procedures and that can take a lot of lateral thinking! Of course, there will always be some who can't or don't want to work that hard. My 2c (which isn't worth much in sterling, I know!:p)

[cb9002]

ASTAC at Gloucestershire Airport are offering a degree in air traffic.

try www.astac.co.uk

[Gonzo]

Longer in calendar time, or real time?

I know of school friends who received a degree for under fifteen hours a week over three years.....how does that compare to what some of my coursemates did; 35 hours a week over 18 months?

[Get me some traffic]

When I went to Bournemouth (many moons ago) I was informed that I was studying at the University of ATC, reading separation!!

[RAAFASA]

Good point, time vs content ... I've done both the 15 contact hours per week uni degree and the 40+ hours per week of the RAAF ATC course. I meant longer in terms of increasing the content covered. As well as studying procedures I would invisage a degree course covering human factors, aviation history, aviation management, acft performance etc in more depth.

You know, the stuff that most of us pick up in our own time by reading avaition publications, experience etc. Spreading the course over 3 years instead of the 6 months that the RAAF squeezed us into, would allow more time for cementing the concepts and covering more content in greater depth.

In hindsight, I think our course is quite light on for acft performance. That's something that seems to be picked up in OJT (and varies greatly from base to base as some are purely jet fighters, some are joint user, some have rather odd airspace due to proximity to capital city airports etc).

Having said that, the current system works as far as turning out suitable trainees, I just think we could develop a better standard of controller right from the start instead of relying on personal maturation within the profession.

Still obtaining an ATC degree would not guarantee a rating. We all know someone who aced the theory, but couldn't translate it to real traffic. I guess the advantage of the degree would be that if you failed OJT, you'd have qualifications for other aviation jobs (ops, briefing, management etc).

And, of course, surely with higher quals, we would also get higher remuneration!!!:E (Eternally optomistic!)

[BDiONU]

Similar thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=291690) on the NATS private forum recently, for those who have access. For those who don't the bottom line was forget about it :}

BD

[aluminium persuader]

It's a tricky one, I agree. I remember CATC wasn't recognised as an educational establishment as such, but I do remember that we managed to convince the local authorites that cadets were in full-time education & therefore only had to pay 20% of the Poll Tax (remember that one?!).

From a personal POV I'm not looking to increase my pay for nothing (although that would be nice!) but I would like the work that I've done to be recognised by the wider world. None of you need telling how hard it is, and although it is shorter in calendar terms than a degree the intensity of the courses and the amount of home study required more than make up for it. Of course, there's no dissertation but would successful validation not suffice?

ap:ok:

[danieloakworth]

Bit of an old chestnut this one, Military Aircrew have been trying this for a while (3-5 years of training). At the end of the day though what would you really achieve from it, other than a piece of paper that is fairly meaningless, and some letters to go after your name.

[notared]

Yellow peril probably equate to Sports Science/Media Studies or similar but doesn't come close to "proper" degree

[Minesapint]

Degrees are academic, not academic and practical. A sandwich degree course may be similar? 4 years course & practical. I don't think a controllers course equates to a BSc though!

[Ivor_Novello]

I'd rather be on a wage (albeit small) studying ATC without the prospect of a degree, than being a student again, with no wage and uni fees to be paid studying for a BSc in ATC :)

Uni degrees are ten a penny these days anyway, and when they bring the school leaving age up to 18 in the next few years they will probably mean even less...

[JustaFew]

Some of the CATC instructors at Bournemouth told us that what we were studying was considered to be degree-equivalent back in 1990 (about the same time as you, aluminium persuader - which course number were you on?).Several of the cadets on our course had been to uni, they said the ATC course was a much steeper learning curve and more intense.

[ATCO Fred]

Bit of an old chestnut this one, Military Aircrew have been trying this for a while (3-5 years of training). At the end of the day though what would you really achieve from it, other than a piece of paper that is fairly meaningless, and some letters to go after your name.

Or you can get a Masters Degree in Leadership and Management from the Institute of City & Guilds for your comensurate Military Service. All for £95 no extra work required...nice!

http://www.cityandguilds.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-0AC0478C-21E85DFA/cgonline/hs.xsl/1208.html

[Imperator1300]

Although I would agree that an ATCO License is not equivalent to a degree (academically), you may be able to get a university to accept it as sufficient to gain a place on a post-graduate course. This was my experience a few years ago, when I managed to gain an M.Sc, although I was on probation for the first few modules :bored:.

Whilst degrees are just pieces of paper, they are useful when dealing with others (such as engineers) who perhaps see them as their 'licenses'.