Hour-building - What are the conditions?

[luigi_m_]

I'm a low-hour PPL currently flying a C172 and would like to get my commercial license in the next few years in order to teach PPL. I know that I need 150 hours P1 before I can start the CPL, but I wanted to know what the conditions were on what aircraft flown could to count towards the 150 hours. Eg, does it need to be aircraft over a certain weight, or can the modern Light Sports Aircraft be included, or 3-axis microlight.

I know most people would go for a C152 or something in Spain/America, but I would rather buy a share in a Robin HR200 or a Eurostar in the UK. Would these be suitable for hour-building?

[dsandson]

I'm sure others will elaborate, but since I'm slowly hour-building too, heres how I know it.

Hour building that counts toward the 100 hour P1 requirement for CPL licence issue must be on what were known as Group A aircraft - over 450kg all up weight and on a CAA or EASA CofA, or on a PFA Permit to Fly.

As far as I know you can get a 3 axis microlight rating (ie, under 450kg AUW) added to your JAR PPL to fly these A/C, but you cant log it toward CPL issue.

The Aircraft you mention - the robin should be fine. The Eurostar (I'd love to fly one) only if on a Permit.

Good luck. I'm currently flying a club 152... would love to be part of a group but the finances dont stretch that far! :sad:

[ab33t]

100 P1, cheapest would be to join a group. I currently fly for £58-66 and hour DA20/152/P138

[DBo]

Some of the homebuilt Eurostars were built as group A. There is a procedure (involving the fitting of an electric fuel pump and some paperwork) for converting homebuilt microlights to group A. The MAUW of the group A's is about 30kg higher than the microlight.

You cannot convert a factory built microlight to a group A

Dave

[A and C]

That is very cheap please tell me how much the C152 costs per hour and if this includes any form of monthly subscription or equity holding?

[gcolyer]

Cheapest is not always best or most desireable. I usually fly fly a PA32, C337, AA5-B

I have done the 152, 172 and PA28 thing as well. I recenetly joined a PA28 Dakota group for £155 a month and £85 an hour wet. With this aircraft I have a good usefull weight load a decent cruise speed and a decent range. With full IR certification it becomes a great aircraft for building quality hours, not just quantity hours.

[Dan Dare]

Try £12 an hour WET - thats what you could pay for some single seat VW powered aircraft (Turbulent, Taylor, Luton, Jodel Bebe, FRED, VP to name a few). The hours all count for licence issue and I would argue that the hours can be just as useful as the bigger types.

The Tiger Club at Headcorn could train you and hire a Turbulent (for quite a bit more than £12 an hour) but there is nothing to stop you buying in to a group or just getting your own. At this time of year I think you could buy one of the lesser VW types for a few £000, flog the hours out of it and provided you don't break it then sell for at least as much in the summer when there is more demand. It often suprises me that people don't know the availabiliy of this type of flying).

A quick search of the internet AFORS (http://www.cfors.co.uk/afors/index.php?page=browse&cat=GROUP&sec=AERO) shows group shares available at various locations too.

[eharding]

There is a long, and very distinguished, list of ATPLs who did their time in the Jodel D9 at my local club (and at least one British Advanced Aerobatic Champion).

This chap has starred in a recent prime-time TV show, as well, apparently...

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5285620872175100859&q=Jodel+D9&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[airborne_artist]

If what you want is to build hours, then the slower the aircraft goes, the better, surely? If it sips fuel at the same time, better still :ok:

[gcolyer]

Here is a question.

If you are seriously going for ATPL would you rather have cheap as chips low end spam can hours going for bacon butty runs or would you rather have quality hours doing decent distances in a decent aircraft (especialy complex)?

Both are valid hours which will count, but which will be more beneficial to you in the long run?

[marlat]

Do hours flying a TMG count towards the CPL minima? I think the answer is no but can anyone confirm this?

[luigi_m_]

gcolyer : I'm not looking at getting an ATPL, just commercial for instructing, and would love to fly a classic aircraft like a Jodel or Luton. So that's the motive behind my madness.

Anyone else, what are some otehr good websites for looking at aircraft for sale and air craft shares?

[Oldpilot55]

afors.co.uk
thehangar.co.uk
pilotweb.aero
ukga.com
and since you live very close...rsafrance.com

[Blonde Bombshell]

Marlat - you can count 30 hours in a TMG towards the CPL P1 hours requirement. Incidentally this can also be in gliders (although the combined total counted not more than 30 hours. All there in LASORS in the CPL section, experience section of the modular route. You can't count motor glider hours if you are only flying on differences training/certificate of experience rather than a TMG itself.

[englishal]

If you are seriously going for ATPL would you rather have cheap as chips low end spam can hours going for bacon butty runs or would you rather have quality hours doing decent distances in a decent aircraft (especialy complex)?
To be fair, regarding "quality" of hours, the Dakota is no different than a C150 - a couple of hours of wobbly prop doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things.

What I would do....depending on your circumstances....is go to America for a month or so if you can (West Coast) and rent something funky and fast, cheaply and experience a lot of different environments (mountains, high density altitudes, deserts etc...). That way you are not wasting your time burning holes in the sky for the sake of it, but broadening your overall experience.....If you are going to instruct I would also spend some time doing aerobatics and extreme unusual attitudes so you are comfortable anyway up....

Just MHO.....

[gcolyer]

englishal

I almost agree with your comment about the dakota. However at 75% power I cruise at 130kts with 12USG burn and 65% power 125kts with 10.9USG burn. It is full airways rigged and certified. With full fuel at 65% power I have about 6 hours cruise not accounting for wind that is 750NM. i could of course drop to 55% power at 9.3USG and 115kts. also the MAUW is 3000lbs.

It is a lot more usefull than the average PA28/C150 and you can fly much better hours by going places that you would not think of in the average spam can.

Admittedly a nice TB20-30 or similar would be better.

[A and C]

I am not sure that the average hour builder is ready for 6 hours in the air and the flight planning that would be going along with that.

As some one who has to sit along side the graduates of the training industry I find that they are all very good at IF and following the magenta line, the big problem is the basics.

Ask these guys to fly a visual approach in ideal VMC conditions and they will ask to do the full IF approach flying ten miles away from the airfield just to turn around and come back !

Basic hand flying is what the average low time pilot needs before he/she gets caught up in an industry that thinks more in terms of "flight management" rather than pilotage.

The hours builder needs to hand fly the aircraft and so 100 hours of C152 time is as good as 100 hours of TB20 time and costs a lot less........................he will need the money for the rest of his training in the magenta line kindergarden.

[IRISHPILOT]

read the question!

Luigi wants to do a CPL in order to instruct. Where does he mention an ATPL or something fast?
He wants to build some hours over the next couple of years. He is interested in something like a Taylor or Jodel. Well, most likely, when he starts instructing it will be in nothing bigger than a C152 or C172, so these are the quality hours for him, not something bigger and faster. Why would he need something airways equipped if he doesn't want to do an IR, nor instruct IR?

The advice to go elsewhere is good, depending on your circumstances. Some glider is certainly beneficial, US was a great experience for me (Cub on Ski, etc), Xcountry to the Bahamas, etc.
A Cessna in Europe should not set you back more than 100 Euro at the most.

good luck! IP