***WARNING; Women Empowering Women and other thieving pyramid scams!***

[Sick Squid]

Since the recent thread advertising a pyramid scheme appeared on here, much debate has gone on behind the scenes at PPRuNe. This problem is MUCH bigger than any of us imagined, so I'm restarting this topic to get some debate going on the subject, and to act as a warning to those tempted by the "get-rich-quick" promises.

One of the nastiest schemes in current circulation is the "Women Empowering Women" pyramid. I have heard this scam originated on the Isle of Wight, and rapidly spread over there and Hampshire, and warnings are being broadcast regularly on Hampshire radio. It has also surfaced in Scotland, so tracing the origins are difficult... the effects however are the same, the vast majority of people lose money. Lots of it.

Now it seems to have infiltrated our airlines, and is being targeted at new entrant female cabin crew. This scheme uses all the 'right" words, is very well presented and glossy with an information pack and a target market of young, independent women.

*****It is nothing more than a cynical rip-off, designed not to empower anyone, but to relieve people of their money. *****

I copy below some of the debate from the admin forum, and the original thread. Please feel free to contribute, I have heard stories of new-entrants maxing out their credit cards and going seriously into debt... the most worrying occurence is that these scams are apparently being spread about by Cabin Crew management in some airlines, people who should have the welfare of their crew at heart. Disgusting.

............................
Sick Squid
Cabin Crew Forum Moderator
[email protected]


[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 04 July 2001).]

[ 12 July 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[Sick Squid]

Here's some of the debate as it stands;

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">From Flying Clea;
This get rich quick scheme has been splashed across the tabloids in scottish papers.To be honest with you where is the money originally comming from to start these schemes.
If anyone can remember the government in albania told people to put their savings into a similar scheme in their country. The people lost their life saving and started a peoples revolution against the government.
This is also banned in four states in the USA as the money was being laundered.
Where and how was this scheme originating from in this country. Do people think that this was someone who said i'm honest and i will make alot of people rich with my money.
</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">From Minimum Rest;
Same thing has been going on at Britannia, only on a smaller scale. You put a hundred quid in then when you get to the top of the so called pyramid you get six times your money. The people who joined first were ok but as recruitment slows up it takes longer and longer to get your cash back. A bit risky! </font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">From the Admin Forum;
Pyramid schemes do not produce a product or service for sale. The only money in the pot is the money the players themselves put in. So, the only way anyone can get more out than they put in is to take it away from someone else. The only way cash enters the scheme is from new recruits, the people at the bottom of the pyramid.

As long as the pyramid continues to grow, then the money continues to flow. But no pyramid can grow forever, and when it finally collapses, as it inevitably must, then the very large majority of people who at or near the bottom are left holding the bag, wondering where their money went. A few in the middle of the scheme get back their initial investment, and the very few at the top make a profit -- creating a few winners and many, many losers. That is precisely why pyramid schemes are illegal.

Whoever started the "buy a heart" scam is - to put it bluntly - stealing money from your cabin crew. And should go to gaol.</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">From the Admin Forum;
I know for a fact that it was some middle management in our company that started it amongst the cabin crew. It is being marketed as a 'thing' run by women for women and that therefore the 'sisters' won't rip each other off. Not likely?</font>

We'd like as much input as possible to this, please. By contributing to this thread and therefore increasing awareness of this problem in it's many disguises, you could be preventing a friend or colleague from being cynically fleeced.

.........................
Sick Squid
Cabin Crew Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 04 July 2001).]

[Birds2perches]

Oooh. This could be nasty. This went round my airline ages ago. Have to say, despite negative comments form some people, I had a go at it and made a lot of money, then reinvested for my family and made plenty for them too. Good experience for all I knew in it. Thought it had died a death but apparently not as it would seem here. At the end of the day, as I understood it, yeah, it's a risk, but that was made pretty clear to me. Anyone with any common sense could see that. To put your life savings into anything slightly riskly is unwise to say the least isn't it? Let people make up their own minds. I would say that if there are any investors in it today, this kind of publicity is a sure way for them to lose out.

[Sick Squid]

That's the way it goes, B2P, some people make a profit, a few more break even, and an awful lot lose out. What to do, then, keep quiet so that more people can be sucked in just to support those already there?

I do appreciate your point however, and very well put. Pyramid schemes always end up in tears however; maybe it didn't for you, but it will have done for somone else in your scheme.

£6

[wideaisle]

Well isn't that diplomatic! Mr 'sick' squid removed my posting re this subject the other day saying it is against guidelines to promote (be positive) about such a scheme. Now he has decided it is o.k. to talk about it - but I guess only if you are negative. Well the FACT is that many many people have made money out of this . I have met them, my own friends, and know this to be the truth. As an adult you have to make a decision on whether you feel it will work for you or not. Sure there is no guarantee of making lots of money, sure it is a calculated risk, but what investments are 100% ? And Sick Squid your moderation is , in my opinion, doubtful to say the least.

[Flygor]

For the first few weeks of the summer every time I went into the crewroom someone was pushing a bit of paper under my nose asking me to join. Knowing how dodgy it all sounded and knowing people outside work who had fallen for the scam and lost their money I steadfastly refused, and advised anyone else who was interested not to take part. Now a couple of months on the whole thing has dried up in the airline. A lot of crew have lost their money, and people have said they wished they had listened to me in the first place.

Bringing something like this into the workplace is in my opinion about the most stupid thing anyone could do. Regardless of whether anyone has given the hard sell, or whether people have handed money over of their own free will, in the end it will only cause bad feeling amongst the crew (it caused me bad feeling when I began losing it with people who would not take no for an answer!). I know I would not be happy with the person I handed my hard earned cash over to if weeks later I realised that I'd lost it for good. We all have to work together as a team and we should be looking out for our colleagues instead of ripping them off.


I'm very pleased to read this thread and find out that at last someone else sees this for what it really is. It's been lonely out there all this time!

[MinimumRest]

Hi Flygor, how's it going?

Glad to hear you're being sensible - I know some of our fellow workers at your base were getting a bit obsessed by it all!

By the way, did you know I've left the circus? :)

[pants off tiger]

Well you can all have your opinions and that's fair enough but I got my money with no real problems. I think it is a personal decision and up to the individual to decide. Agree with wideaisle though. This subject could have been handled better by the mod. He/she should not show bias on a subject and it seems this was done here. Also if any of you do have friends who are in schemes then you are really helping to lose their money with the comments you make although I agree everyone has a right to their views.

[PPRuNe Dispatcher]

Sick Squid showed bias on this because it is nothing more than a cynical scheme by those who start it to defraud gullible, desperate or greedy folks. :mad:

To reiterate something said earlier in this thread : The only money in the pot is the money the players themselves put in. So, the only way anyone can get more out than they put in is to take it away from someone else. The only way cash enters the scheme is from new recruits, the people at the bottom of the pyramid.

In other words, no money is generated. It is simply taken away from those who join later.

---PPRuNe Dispatcher

[flying clea]

Not Again,

I know you can make money and lose your money in this get rich scheme but look at the down side of it all.
What if you get your familly involved because they trust and believe that you have a very good chance of making a few quid after the info you gave them. They put in a lot of money and it all goes pear shape .They dont just lose their well earned cash but you could also lose them as well.

P.S this could go for your very close friends as well.

[PPRuNe Towers]

So Pants Off,

What your saying is we shouldn't do what we can prevent further layers of the pyramid being recruited to this scam so as to protect the ones already in it.

Forget it. We watched the entire enconomy of Albania fall to a similar scheme. Try a few simple sums to see the remarkably few layers of the pyramid it takes for half the nation to be paying each other. It's a sucker scheme that works for only the first few layers. It gets restarted repeatedly because only the first few players/layers ever get the return. The number of losers always exceed the winners. It's simple maths.

We will not stand idly by letting more be dragged in. Those already up to their necks realise they have to recruit more or lose everything. They will suggest they've already got their money even when they have not.

The policy decided was to return the thread to allow discussion. I happen to think the decision originally taken by the moderator was correct. Those already trapped in the scheme are desperate for publicity, any publicity to draw the mathematically required losers into the scam.

------------------
Regards from the Towers
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 06 July 2001).]

[HugMonster]

Pants off, wide aisle, and B2P - it is not good enough to say "I tried this and it was OK for me".

You might as well say "I tried loan sharking and it was okay for me".

Any scheme that aims to make money effectively by defrauding and conning others is, IMO, a disgrace.

I applaud £6 in removing these posts and making the above warning.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I would have done what £6 did. I think these scams are evil. They are also ILLEGAL

But no matter, you chose to do what you did because it would, and has, given you some easy money. Fine! Now how about this? How do you feel that YOU HAVE KNOWINGLY TAKEN FROM ANOTHER PERSON HIS HARD EARNED CASH? Feels good does it? Well you enjoy it and I will briefly tell you what the END result is for the many who are not in the first layers of the pyramid scam. They go broke! They max out a credit card! They even re-mortgage their home. Or worse, they mortgage it after it was fully paid up!

I had a good friend ABZ, a good pilot and a nice guy with 2 daughters and a great wife. He got invited to one of these closed door meetings and was hooked. I couldn't dissaude him, the seed was sown. Without telling his wife, he mortgaged the house to raise £75,000 on the promise that he would get £150,000. But he never did - the pyramid collapsed. The 'investors', who are pivotal to anyone receiving THEIR chunk of the pot, dried up and the top layers lost all their money while the bottom layers got more money - from the likes of my friend.

Then this happened. He couldn't fly. He dare not. He became depressed. He went to see an FME who pulled his licence "because he was a danger to himself". He then told his wife. She left him. He started drinking. Then exactly 4 months after he made "the most important decision of his life" he killed himself! Great story eh?

That is what these scams do. They create widows and destroy lives.

Remember the first thing I mentioned won't you. How does it feel spending the likes of my friend's money? There are MANY people like my friend, and ALL the people who start these scams, and a few layers above them KNOWINGLY PLAN TO STEAL THE MONEY FROM THE PEOPLE ABOVE! When it dries up it's over! Finished! The pot's empty. What was the reason to start it in the first place? What was it's aim?

IF&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;that is NOT the case you tell me what it is. But I tell you, there is NO other answer. And don't forget is a criminal offence now - and judges do not like them! It's fraud.

They are a disgusting ruse and hurt many people. My advice is to steer clear of them and inform the police.

edited for a few typos while I was flaming!

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Pop (edited 06 July 2001).]

[nothing to declare]

Ahh. A topic close to my heart. I'm not ashamed to say that I've been involved in WEW and have found it to be an extremely good investment, not only for myself, but for my friends and family.

At the end of the day, people are all adults and are able to judge for ourselves whether to invest or not to invest. Therefore, calling it a 'scam' is a bit unfair. If anyone saw GMTV this morning, there were lots of women phoning in to support it. One of the main contributing factors towards the failure of this type of thing is people giving it bad press.

And one more thing, wideaisle is correct in saying that the way this topic has been handled is unfair and biased. The moderators should not be inviting negative comments only. To do so, is not creating an open forum.

[Norfolk and airspeed]

Two lovely descriptions of how to lose all your money!

http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~btcarrol/skeptic/pyramid.html
http://www.impulse.net/~thebob/Pyramid.html

[Norfolk and airspeed]

Want to know more?

Go to the www.google.com (http://www.google.com) search engine.

Search for the words
Women Empowering Women Scam

Then browse through the 800+ websites which tell you how to lose your money. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[InFinRetirement]

How open do you want the forum for God's sake?

Are you not missing the point here. As I see it, it has been explained that it is illegal. It has to be if there NO investment opportunity. Was there one? If there was it would be as well to say what it is. If there wasn't it's a scam!

Investment is where you are issued with shares in a bone fide company. Is this such a company? Have you got issued shares and what is the share capital? If none, it's a scam.

It's got scam written all over it, and it is more than a little naive to blame the press for any downfall. It save's more poor souls from losing there money to the scammers who started it.

Btw. I saw the GMTV thing yesterday and 'lots' of women called in. What was that 10, 20 or what? This thread is an endeavour to save 100's of people from being parted from their money - not for those who have already scammed theirs at the expense of others. If you haven't, and you can prove it, I will openly apologise - but you will have to show proof of investment, properly conducted within the terms required.

Nice big open forum this. You can open a strong debate that people can enter without fear.

[VFE]

Just thought I'd add this story to the thread:

My cousin and his girlfriend, after just getting their first mortgage, went into one of these pyramid schemes recently. They paid £3k expecting to get £21k back.

They were cautious at first and were advised against it by myself and others but the real clincher was when a guy who was 'receiving' went round their house and dumped his £21k on their living room floor and said: "Do you wanna have this too?". They leaped into it with glee.

Anyway, the pyramid scheme collapsed around their deaf ears a couple of weeks after entering. They have got £1k of their £3k 'investment' back.

Good job it wasn't a hefty scheme like the one PPRuNe Pop described. Sorry to hear about your friend.

VFE.


[This message has been edited by VFE (edited 06 July 2001).]

[Capt PPRuNe]

I spoke to a #1 who has invested her 3k and now several weeks later she is still waiting to become rich. She believes in the 'scheme' (read scam) because the lower echelon cabin crew manager who started it in my company has made over 100k, allegedly!

It is being aimed at 'mathematically challenged' women who cannot see further than the glossy brochures. There is absolutely no investment or product being produced from this. Only money being put in and then being taken out again. The maths are basic... if more is being taken out than is put in then someone will lose out and history repeats itself again and again, the majority lose out.

Anyone who is happy at receiving a lot of money from this scam is obviously very selfish as they do not care about the people who they may not know several 'layers' beneath them! Yes they may belive in it and they may be lucky because they were in the scam early on but they have the morals of a common thief and are as welcome as one in the home of one of the people who lose out.

Whichever way you look at it, just because a few of you have made a lot of money from it there will be an exponentially larger number of individuals who will have lost out. I am sure that those who have some common sense will understand.

The cabin crew person who I was talking to looked at the article in the newspaper I was reading about the scam when I asked her if she knew about it and had invested in it and said to me "That's not the same as the scheme I'm in. In the one I'm in the pyramid is the other way round!" Duh! :rolleyes:

Proves to me that there will always be enough gullible people to be taken for a ride by those clever and corrupt enough to get in quick. The people who are moaning about us having a go at this scam and crying foul are more than likely either the ones who are in at the beginning of this scheme or else losers living in hope that their payout will arrive eventually.

There is no way that I will allow this forum to be used to promote an illegal scam such as the WEW scheme. If you still pay into one then you must be too stupid to remain on this forum. If you don't like it then use your payout to buy your own forum and post there.

[The Black Baron]

Danny, I'd like to make a comment which does not promote the scheme you talk about. In fact it's got nothing to do with that. I have to say, I'm SHOCKED at your sexist and nasty comments. There are only 3 or 4 old comments here putting their VIEWS forward (isn't that what a forum is for?) so it would suggest that forum users have got the message LOAD AND CLEAR! I've never heard of it. I haven't seen it on the news. I work for a LHR based airline and have lots friends in other airlines who've never heard of it either. You've made your point in the most HORRID way, insulting as many women as you possibly can, proving that you can't for one minute adapt other peoples views objectively without totally insulting them. Call yourself a moderator eh? 'DUH' :rolleyes:

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: The Black Baron ]

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: The Black Baron ]

[Low_and_Slow]

One of the main contributing factors towards the failure of this type of thing is people giving it bad press.
Not a contributing factor, it just hastens the inevidible (and thus minimizes the number of people harmed). The main contributing factor to their failure is that it's a mathematical certainty that you will, sooner rather than later, run out of people.

Consider one where you "invest" 100GBP and get back 1000GBP. For this to work, each person at level n needs 10 people at level n+1. Thus in 10 levels the entire population of the earth will be involved (10^10&gt;&gt;human population). Most of those people will have put money in without getting any out. Now what, we recruit the ferengi?? (the vulcans are too smart for this one).

Illegal in the US and I suspect in the UK too, and with good reason.

Consider that when you "invested" you didn't know the height of the tree or the height it would attain. The only person who didn't have a good change of loosing their money is the person at the top of the pyramid (the convention, possibly because pyramids are point up, is that new people are added at the bottom). Of course they risk loosing other things. I have to assume that at least the lower echelon cabin crew manager who started it in Danny's company will get his/her cumupance when all his/her subordinants and friends are left holding the bag. How long before he/she becomes so reviled that productivity suffers
:confused:


Black Barron wrote
I have to say, I'm SHOCKED at your sexist and nasty comments.....You've made your point in the most HORRID way, insulting as many women as you possibly can,
Are you referring to

It is being aimed at 'mathematically challenged' women who cannot see further than the glossy brochures.

In defense of Danny, while he could have phrased it better, given the passions involved I see nothing mysogonistic in this comment. This particular scheme is being aimed at Women (not men) and it is obviously aimed at those will little mathematical sophistication (or alternatively those who got in early, who understand what is going on, and who have underdeveloped senses of morality). It says nothing about the frequency of mathematical unsophistication in the female populace. Also the other posts have confirmed at least as many schemes preying on the large numbers of men who are mathematically challenged.

Check out Women Empowering Women (http://hometown.aol.com/massenapyramid/myhomepage/business.html)for some details of this scheme

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: What was the DH again????? ]

[wideaisle]

Just to put you all back on the rails whatever your view. This is not illegal in the U.K. as per trading standards statement. But hey never let the facts get in the way of a good slagging off!

[Sick Squid]

OK Wideaisle, in the interests of balance, perhaps you or another supporter would care to provide your interpretation of why these schemes are a good thing.

This last week has been one of the hardest personally for me, as I have been forced to learn the intricacies of these schemes and their impact, in the process discovering that my wife lost a lot of money in one in the 80's... something I did not know about. From a position of vague awareness following the first post (by Wideaisle) I now consider myself up-to-speed with them.

Conversely, I have received several e-mails that highlight a different side to this story, almost all saying "please don't provide negative publicity, or I will lose my money." In some cases, partners have not been informed about the "investment."
There is a lot under the surface.....

This has provided a human side to what is not a simple black and white issue. Why are they a good thing in your opinion?

The floor is yours.

£6

[Capt PPRuNe]

The Black Baron if you'd care to do a tiny bit of research into the problem, just click on a few of the links provided in this thread, you would see what I am on about. One thing for sure is I am not sexist and rather than harp on about it just read what What was the DH again????? posted in my defense.

The scheme is aimed at women by other women using terminology like 'empowerment'. Nowhere did I say that all women were mathematically challenged, only those who go into this scheme more than two or three layers down the pyramid. If you think that is 'horrid' then so be it but I am actually trying to promote awareness of this scam.

This thread has not deleted any of the quotes and it is a 'discussion' of the topic. What I will not allow though is a thread titled 'Get rich quick' and then have the first post promote this scam. This way at least there is an awareness campaign and links to sites that go into great detail that explain why these are scams.

There are also many schemes that suck in mathematically challenged men. Same applies here. As I said in my previous post "Proves to me that there will always be enough gullible people to be taken for a ride by those clever and corrupt enough to get in quick." There are also silly men getting women to invest on their behalf in this current scam so I must be an equal opportunity sexist! :rolleyes:

[mallard]

Is it true? Is it not illegal in the UK?
I saw them trying to defend it on TV and even here on pprune and am amazed at human gullibility.
I have experience of Amway (which is perfectly legal but morally suspect) so I have a deep understanding of the Psychology involved.
Norfolk and Airspeed has a couple of links which you all really ought to check out. Well done mate.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for those caught in the spell but I have to tell those of you crowing about the money you have made, you should blush with shame and return the money to your equally gullible victims who are highly unlikelr to see any return on their greedy "investment".
There has never been a similar scheme which did not end in tears.
Are you sure it's not illegal?

[Avtrician]

Pyramid Schemes are illegal in Australia and so they should be.

Amway actualy sells a product, however is a Pyramid in that the Idea is to recruit more sellers so that you move up the chain and get a cut of the sellers money.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Wideaisle, of course it is illegal. It's fraud - nothing to do with trading standards where on earth did you get that info from? It is not a trade, except in people's misery, and it is not an investment? Where is the company? Like someone said "there are none so blind as they who cannot see."

Just take a look at this little article written by Tony Hetherington in The Fiancial Mail last Sunday.

I make no apologies for placing it here verbatim.

Mrs C.A.L. writes: I am writing about your article of June 17, when you describe Women Empowering Women as Women Ripping Off Women. You presented this scheme as foul. It is nothing of the sort. It differs from pyramid schemes as they work by having one controlling member who gets most of the proceeds. With WEW, the receiver of monies changes constantly and the aim is for everyone to benefit. Most men cannot comprehend a scheme that is largely based on trust. Most of the bad press articles are written by men. I am aware you will not publish this letter."

Yours is not the only letter I have received that suggests that as a man, I cannot understand Women Empowering Women. However, one or two writers say they believe I secretly know the scheme works, and I am part of a male conspiracy to crush it and keep women poor.

Leaving the paranoia aside, mathematics are the same for both sexes. Women Empowering Women involves handing over £3,000 in the hope that eight new recruits will eventually give you a total of £24,000.

It follows that they will need 64 recruits to pay them, and this next tier will need 512, who will need 4,096 - and so on. For every winner there must be eight losers. (my bolds)
If you don't believe me, visit the Isle of Wight, where the scheme started in the UK. Some women there are in despair after borrowing the £3000 on their credit cards to take part.

Or read the warning article that appeared on June 28 in The Mail on Sunday's sister paper, the London Evening Standard. Reporting that some women in the scheme are now suing each other, Emily Sheffield revealed that one lady is even taking her own bridesmaid to court!

And Emily Sheffield is not a man.
____________________________________________

What do you think now wideaisle? What will anybody think? Please say it is common sense.

As those that care have been saying these past days, the mathematics make it impossible to work for those in the higher tiers. IMPOSSIBLE - if you see my point!

It's deception but few people see it until it hits them. Then when their pride gets hurt they want their money back. Few, if any, ever get it back. It's a scam.

I repeat, "there are none so blind as they who cannot see."

[swashplate]

Interesting thread.

About 4 years ago, (just before I moved from Oldham), I recieved one of these letters.
Can't remember the exact title but it was something like the 'Sir John Scruggs ' buisiness plan or something like that.

You sent off £10 for some info ('how to market your product' that type of thing) and then sent it to 10 friends who would each pay you £10 etc etc.

It was all very glossy and proffesional looking. I have to admit I was tempted. However, I was moving to start the new job so decided to do this down in Luton. With moving etc. it got forgotten about.....

AND I AM BLOODY GLAD!!!!

I have just read this thread & links and went quite cold when I considered what I could have done. :eek:

IMHO the only 'women' empowered by this are the clever ones who started the scheme!!!

..and are you sure they're women....!!!! :D :D


Thank god for PPRuNe.....Thank god for the web.........!!!!


NO WAY I'll get caught like that. Shall inform my friends.......suggest everyone who reads this posts a link!

[speedygonzales]

If Nothing to Declare and certain others on this post cannot see that this scam is pure theft then I am amazed and disappointed. If any of them holds the Queen's Commission they should should resign forthwith

My wife was suborned by a family friend to part with £3000 while I was away on a trip. What was the result. The person who started it the heart chain got £24,000 and lost eight life long friends. We are now aware of dozens of people who have lost money.

This is a nasty, grubby, dishonest scam. :mad:

[swashplate]

Additional:
http://w3.one.net/%7Ebanks/webscam.htm

Interesting stuff......

[SLT]

Or try this one for some food for thought!!!!
Pyramid Schemes (http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/InPerson/MajorPerson/pyramid_clubs.htm)

[Arhedis_Varkenjaab]

Apparently, this WEW scheme originated from the IOW and is spreading fast! Such schemes resurface every few years under different names (read swashplates post and the links provided) and lure people into believing that they will make X times the amount they put into it!

Taken from the BBC news - Business website.
… Thousands took part
The local Trading Standards office estimates thousands of people took part, with the office having taken over a hundred calls, mostly from people who claimed to be friends or relatives of those who had got involved.
"I had a great deal of difficulty explaining to people why eventually this doesn't work. It is a case of wishful thinking really taking over from critical analysis. When they started up, there were payouts, there were people receiving £24,000. If you are gullible, that is proof to you that the schemes work," Stone said.
One week the NatWest had so many withdrawals of £3,000 that it was concerned its branches would run out of money.
But, like all pyramid schemes, it was doomed to fail ultimately, because - very quickly - you run out of people to get new money from.

.... Legal minefield

It is unclear what action can be taken as the scheme doing the rounds on the Isle of Wight means it is classified as a pyramid scheme or chain letter, rather than pyramid selling.

The latter involves sale of a product and is governed by trading regulations. The Isle of Wight scheme falls outside of the trading regulations as there is no product sale involved.

However, chain letters inviting participants to send money are probably illegal under the Lotteries and Amusements Act of 1974...



Ok, so this particular scheme is aimed at women and it is obvious how it has managed to enter the airline industry and particularly amongst Cabin Crew!! (-just to clear this point up I’m talking about the ‘sister-hood’ attitude not people’s mentality-).

For those considering entering the scheme. please please, take a step back and think logically:

a. Where all this money you will supposedly ‘earn’ is coming from. i.e. all your friends and family that YOU are urging to join!!!!!!!
b. What happens if you are stuck in the pyramid when it collapses (because it will eventually collapse).
c. Although you might have heard of people that came out of these schemes with large amounts of cash think of the people that are too embarrassed to admit that they have lost their money (Or they just want to forget about it)! :eek:

Even thought I disagree with the language used by Capt PPRuNe about his colleague, the fact still remains that such Get Rich Quick schemes, WEW pyramids or chain letters (whatever you wish to call them) are ripping thousands of people off!!!

..Take Care.

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Arhedis_Varkenjaab ]

[fireflybob]

I am not a distributor for Amway but please do not confuse a legitimate multi level (or network) marketing operation with these money scams.

Multi level marketing companies operate under the Pyramid Selling Regulations which are part of the Fair Trading Act which incorporates safeguards for distributors and customers.

As has been said before, there is nothing new in these money schemes and buyer should beware! There will inevitably be losers simply because not everyone will be in a position to "recruit" the right number of people. However, "saturation" is a myth and has yet to occur with any of these schemes and, yes, I know you can prove it mathematically but the fact is that, in reality, it does not occur. The money schemes break down for other reasons - no written contract, bad publicity, etc.

[RICKO]

Reading these posts tonight could not have come at a more apt time.
I have just talked my Wife and her mates out of parting with £3k.
This WEW pyramid has hit Staffordshire big time.No one can afford to lose that sort of money but more importantly no one deserves to lose so many friends over money. :mad:

[qfcabin]

This all has an awful, familiar ring to it.We had similar schemes through Aust several years ago..almost identical in fact..and after massive publicity of the impossibility of the schemes generating profits for all participants, and proof that lower levels were obviously subsidising upper levels, government stepped in and outlawed the whole "pyramid" concept.

[curmudgeon]

If you are thinking of ‘investing’ in one of these schemes, do remember that its exactly the same as persuading 8 of your friends to give you GBP 3,000, without any obligation on your part to give it back. For them to recover the money, they have to persuade at least 1 out of 8 of their other friends to do exactly the same to them. (If anyone wants to dispute this summary, its quite simple – I’m cutting out the middlemen or women).

If anyone is tempted to get in, please remember the fundamental rules of investment –

i) there’s no such thing as a free lunch.
ii) if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Also remember that in general, risk is proportional to return. If there is a possibility of a high return, (ie more than you would get by sticking it on deposit with the Halifax) there is a higher risk that you won’t get it all back.

Similarly, to those still tempted to get in because they need the money, would you be prepared to stick GBP 3,000 on the nose of Sunny Jim in the 3.30 at Chepstow at 8 to 1? Yes, if you do so you could make a lot of money, but there is no guarantee!!

Fireflybob is being disingenuous with his comment that it is not saturation which causes these schemes to collapse. The schemes will collapse when there is saturation of those prepared to take part in them. And yes, numerically there are always more losers than winners.

And, at the risk of being seriously flamed, I have to advise those who are in the schemes and trying to recover their ‘investment’, that if you are desperate to get cash back, think of the potential pyramiding of the misery to those who you draw into the schemes. I don’t know how practical it is, but please try to get your money back from those who you gave it to.

[fireflybob]

curmudgeon, my remarks concerning "saturation" were not intended to be "disingenuous".

I suppose it all depends on what you mean by saturation. I agree that one of the reasons why these money schemes break down is that the average person will "run out" of people who he can find to attract into the system. Only a certain number of people that one knows will be inclined to give it a go.

All I was pointing out is that, in reference to genuine network marketing operations (where a product or service is involved) is that, in fact, saturation does not and has not ever occured.

If you believe that saturation of a market is possible then just think for a moment of colour televisions or mobile phones. Why are there still rows of shops selling these products if the market is supposed to be "saturated"?

[curmudgeon]

Fireflybob, I think we’re both agreed that unless you can afford the loss easily, one of these WEW schemes are a bad idea and certainly not an investment. (Please let me know if I’m wrong!)

Also, I agree that saturation is very difficult or impossible to achieve when you are dealing with a product or service. Colour televisions will have new features or new designs of cabinets that will persuade some people that they need the new version. Mobile phones are similar, where people are persuaded to upgrade rather than replace. The PC market is a prime example, where last year’s top end model is now this year’s entry level.

Where I think we differ is in our views of network marketing organisations. At one end of the scale, they are akin to pyramid schemes, where the actual return for an investment (of time and money in variable quantities) is negligible, and at the other end of the scale (say a McDonald’s franchise) they can be a licence to print money. However, just because there is a product or service involved doesn’t mean you are going to cover the opportunity cost of your investment.

As you said in your earlier post, “buyer beware”.

If someone is going to make an investment, get professional advice. At least if it goes belly up, you can sue the advisor, report them to their professional body, or both.

[shocka]

Investment rules: 1. If it sounds too good to be true........IT IS !!!!!!
2. See rule 1.
3. There's a sucker born every minute !
4. Don't let it be YOU !

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: shocka ]

[Capt PPRuNe]

So much for Women Empowering Women. I have now had first hand accounts from junior cabin crew in the company I fly for who were in tears because they are being threatened by senior CC that if they don't fork out and support the scheme they will receive bad appraisals and will not get a permanent contract. They are so terrified that they will not name names.

The nature of this beast is that as it begins to dawn on the later entrants that they are unlikely to see any money if more people don't join the scam they resort to desperate and evil tactics to 'persuade' others to keep it going and propped up. In the 'Buy a Heart' con, those that take part are unable to fathom that for every person that does receive £24,000 there are 8 others who will lose their £3,000 somewhere down the line and anyone who does not appreciate that fact should search their concience becaause the rest of us will consider them thieves.

Those of you in the UK or who have access to UK TV and are interested in this topic should watch Tonight with Trevor McDonald aftger the News at Ten on ITV at 10:20pm where this scam is investigated.

[DeeTee]

Too true it's rife. In our company nearly all the cabin crew have bought into it. You are quite right, if you point out the mathematics involved and the fact that for one person to make money, eight must lose it, you are accused of 'putting women down' and being a 'jealous male'. I had a hard time convincing my other half to avoid a similar scam at the hospital where she works. Of interest to everyone my next door neighbours daughter has made over £102,000 out of this deal..her path is simple, she starts the pyramids. So she gets all the money from the first level to the last level. To cover her tracks she then 'buys a heart' off the girls in the first level to demonstrate 'sisterhood' and 'helping them out'. So when the pyramid collapses they don't blame her cos 'she bought a heart off them'. She then starts another pyramid. I chatted to her about it and she said that 'you would have to be mad to buy into one unless you were in the receiver position or the first row'.
Anyway there are some girls out there pushing this scam and it has nothing to do with empowering women and everything to do with lining their pockets. Her sister started two pyramids and took £36k in the first four days.

If you think about it if she starts a pyramid and it actually matures she gets 14 girls to give her £3k. If it goes one more level then the girls below her get their money. She deliberately only sells it to friends at the first level then to strangers below that, cos the girls at the first level are 'likely to get some money back but the ones above that will probably lose'. For information she runs a model agency and has hundreds of impressionable young girls on her books she can tap into or bully into buying in. Its as easy as that in an airline. Get some of the senior crew involved and the rest follow like sheep.

My girlie wanted to buy into one and I said not to bother, but to start her own pyramid...for some reason she thought starting one was immoral as it seemed like theft to take all the money from the entire pyramid, but it was okay to buy into an existing one and just try and get her friends involved. Fortunately she has seen sense and not bothered.

[flying clea]

well ,

i personelly know someone who invested £3000 and is secomnd in line to get her payout, but youve guessed it has went pear shape and she might as well say bye to it all.
dont be a mug keep your money . PLEASE. :confused:

[WeatherJinx]

It looks as though this topic has made its way to the hallowed portals of The Economist (latest issue, p.36 "Women Beware Women" - as ever, incisively and aptly titled!). Perhaps PPRuNe is required reading in St James' Street? ;)

The article denounces WEW as the blatant rip-off that it is, but importantly warns of a second scheme, also emanating from the IOW. This scheme was apparently started by lossmaking WEW members and is called a 'Community Investment Club'.

As a casual observer to the debate here (I'm not Cabin Crew), two things strike me:

1. How dramatically effective an Internet community can be in protecting its members from scams.

2. That the only dissenters appear to be the hapless victims, desparate for the chain not to collapse.

Be lucky.

WxJx

[Drop and Stop]

'Women Empowering Women' AKA: Dumb Peoples' Tax!

[El Desperado]

The people who run these fraudulent scams seem to like the word 'invest'. A good sales pitch, is it ? Invest my arse.

At best it is a gamble - a gamble that those suckered into it can recruit yet more suckers to offset their losses. Who in turn need to recruit more suckers.. etc etc.

Not one supporter of this kind of fraud has offered an explanation as to how everyone who joins get wealthier - because.... it doesn't work like that, as you read above.

Tell your colleagues, tell the police. Avoid the scum who run these schemes, leeching from hard-working people, especially your cabin crew and the people you work with. I know captains who are involved in promoting this amongst the crews - outrageous. Make sure they don't win.

C'mon, 'empowerers'/'fraudsters'... tell the world how everyone makes money and we'll all sign up.

Sheesh.