Two pilots allegedly fell asleep during red-eye flight

[beemerbloke]

http://www.yahoo.com/s/724787

How common is this and has anyone here ever fallen asleep at the wheel ?

"Hodas said the airline has received similar reports in the past and have addressed them, noting that pilot fatigue is a bigger issue in the industry than the public realizes."

Who would be culpable for this and what action do you think should be taken ?

[Farrell]

From the culpability point of view, I would say that the responsibility lies with the journalist who more than likely hyped it up.

[fendant]

Last year a 777 from Vietnam Airlines bound for Francfort was detected off flight path over the Czech republic. No reply to frantic ATC calls, the government finally decided to send 2 fighters up. Fighters detected that both pilots were asleep. Passengers were frightened, when they saw the fighters in proximity of the airplane.

Frank

[vancouv]

Isn't there some kind of alarm that goes off at regular intervals which the pilots have to respond to to prevent this happening?

[london wasp]

Yep. It's called the cabin crew who should be going in there at regular intervals to check on the flight crew.

[Clarence Oveur]

From the culpability point of view, I would say that the responsibility lies with the journalist who more than likely hyped it up.There is no bigger safety issue in aviation today than fatigue. I see no hype from the journalist.

[Airbubba]

Another aspect of this story is that you never want to report anything "anonomously" to a safety program that you wouldn't want to read in the papers. Despite all the assurances, some reporter will get "leaked" a copy of the crew roster for that date and the captain's well intended report will come back with possible disciplinary and certificate ramifications. The "amnesty" promised by these anonymous safety reporting programs may wear thin after the crew has been identified by the media.

Isn't there some kind of alarm that goes off at regular intervals which the pilots have to respond to to prevent this happening?

Most modern Boeings, and probably Airbusses as well, have an alert which says something like "Pilot Response Required" after several minutes of inactivity on the FMC's and other cockpit knobs and switches. It continues to escalate with sounds, lights and messages if you don't cancel it in an attempt to knock the crew out of their daze.

[eight16kreug]

Not all aircraft have this wake up call feature. But all do have CC's and all the PIC has to do is set the call during the briefing or at anytime using the interphone.

It happens to the best...

[cwatters]

Original report/incident occured in 2004...?....

https://extranet.nasdac.faa.gov/pls/portal/STAGE.ASRS_BRIEF_REPORT?RPT_NBR=611329&AC_VAR=TRUE&NARR_VAR=TRUE

NARRATIVE

HAD BEEN DOING 4 MONTHS OF STAND-UP'S. LATE RPT, FLY TO DFW ARRIVE AT XA30 AND GO TO MOTEL AND REST APPROX 8 HRS. SHOW AT XH00, FLY BACK TO DEN. FOR THE MONTH OF MARCH, HAD A SCHEDULE CHANGE TO 'RED EYES,' WHICH CONSISTS OF LEAVING DEN AT XA50, FLY TO BWI AND 1 HR TURN-BACK TO DEN. NO REST, JUST STRAIGHT 7 HRS 55 MINS FLT TO BALTIMORE AND BACK. ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY (MAR/THU/04) AFTER 2 PREVIOUS RED EYES, THIS BEING THIRD RED EYE IN A ROW, LAST 45 MINS OF FLT I FELL ASLEEP AND SO DID THE FO. MISSED ALL CALLS FROM ATC TO MEET XING RESTR AT DANDD INTXN IN THE SE CORRIDOR TO DEN. THE XING RESTR BEING DANDD AT FL190 AND 250 KTS. INSTEAD, WE CROSSED DANDD AT FL350 AND MACH .82. I WOKE UP, WHY I DON'T KNOW, AND HEARD FRANTIC CALLS FROM ATC APPROX 5 DME INSIDE OF DANDD. I ANSWERED ATC AND ABIDED BY ALL INSTRUCTIONS TO GET DOWN. WOKE FO UP, STARTED DOWN TO FL220 AS INSTRUCTED, EXPEDITING TO FL220 AND THEN TO 14000 FT WITH TURNS TO 360 DEGS AND THEN TO 180 DEGS. FINISHED ALL CHKLISTS AND LANDED IN DEN WITH NO FURTHER INCIDENTS. WAS NOT TOLD TO CALL ATC, BUT DID FILE RPT WITH COMPANY. ATTRIBUTE INCIDENT TO PLT FATIGUE, AND HOPEFULLY COMPANY IS IN PROCESS OF CHANGING THESE TRIP PAIRINGS.

[bubbers44]

If the crew had not woken up I guess the aircraft would have entered holding over Denver like the Athens incident depending how the Nav was set up. I wonder how many turns it would have taken before a FA would have investigated. Assuming at least one of them was awake.

[411A]

Forget possible fatigue for the moment, and put 'CRM' to work...Capt: "I'll take ten, you got it". F/O responds, and then actually stays awake.
This scenario can be repeated in reverse as conditions allow.
This way, at least one is awake.
Can it be this easy?
Well, in over forty years of professional flying, I have personally found it works to perfection, especially on long haul.
If the First Officer looks like he is dozing off, I will suggest he take ten.
It really is as simple as that.
Now, as to the fatigue issue, red eyes are always a problem, and scheduling needs to address this issue without delay.
In the pilots report, it mentions DEN-BWI-DEN as an especially long flight.
Nonsense.
Day or night, it certainly is not excessive, but it does lead to fatigue issues, due to the time of night.
Scheduling...fix the schedule.
Pilots, employ a little 'CRM'.
There that's settled, what's the next problem?:rolleyes:

[Clarence Oveur]

The next problem is the know-it-alls with the quick-fixes. Luckily that seems confined to the very young or the very old.

[airman13]

That's why the cabin crew must have contact with flight deck every 15 min., no matter if someone of FA just enters in the cockpit or simply makes a short call ''captain ,anymore tea or coffee ?'' .....

[FlyMD]

All airplanes in a now-defunct Swiss airline used to have "egg-timer" type wind-up clocks installed somewhere on the pedestal...

Now, at nap-time, you would set this alarm at something like 15 to 25 minutes, thus ensuring your own wake-up if the buddy supposed to stay awake did not. Simple and effective.

We did not like cabin crew checking into the cockpit all too often during the night, so as not to wake the resting pilot during his "mini sleep"

The reason we did not do more than about 25 minutes of sleep at the time are well-known. Drop into a full sleep cycle with REM-phase, and your awareness is more likely than not shot for a good while even after the wake up... short naps however work magic on those pesky red-eyes...

Both pilots nodding off during cruise happens... it's not nice, but it happens. So ensuring your own wake-up when napping just makes sense, to save major embarassment, or worse.

[West Coast]

"would say that the responsibility lies with the journalist who more than likely hyped it up"

Incorrect. I watched the Captain of said flight give this testimony to Congress.

[Stubenfliege 2]

Hi ya,

have a look into the report of the czech authorities about the incident with the HVN 777:

http://www.uzpln.cz/zazpra06/z105.pdf

There is no single word, that the pilots fell asleep. Indeed, this is the best explanation for their behavior, but it is far away from being "official".

Just a little bit hair spitting....

[L-38]

Freight dogs have no cabin crew with which to check on them. Try departing at 0 dark thirty (example-ANC/NRT), flying west for 8 boring hrs constantly chased by a sunrise.

Remember Lindy (Lindbergh)? - He would tie one finger to a wrench with string, then place both on the glare shield. When he fell asleep. his hand would fall, and with it the wrench.

Tough way to go.

[shoey1976]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236810.stm

to me at least, this seemed to be the tip of the iceberg

Ian Shoesmith
BBC News

[Dani]

Must agree with 411A (the first time :}).

There is hardly any Asian airline that has a proper rest policy in it's books. When asking management, they strongly disagree and say that their pilots do not sleep and are never tired.

When you fly with some Asian pilots, you start that CRM thing and tell them to have a controlled nap (because they really don't look fresh), they don't admit that they are tired, just to find out moments later that they are well asleep. Some even have very sophisticated ways of disguising their rest in a sitting position that looks straight and upright - only the eyes are closed. Admiting a physical weakness is very hard, you could loose your face.

Dani

[sinala1]

That's why the cabin crew must have contact with flight deck every 15 min., no matter if someone of FA just enters in the cockpit or simply makes a short call ''captain ,anymore tea or coffee ?'' .....

Agreed - unless there has been a request for "No Call" during Controlled Rest in the flight deck. Often we will be told "don't call us, we'll call you in xx mins" on a red eye, to allow undisturbed controlled rest to take place. Possible that that the pilot who was staying awake fell asleep during this "No Call" time? Thats when Cabin Crew should then call (when it goes past xx mins) - generally I let it go 5 mins or so longer than requested, but will call then. Seems to work well.

[nano404]

Wow, so Mach .82 is 608 MPH? Probably calculated .92 mach.

[Ignition Override]

Fatigue is perfect for the aviation authorities.
Fatigue has never been found during an autopsy.

As for US air carrier accidents, the NTSB never found the courage to list it as the primary cause until a Kallitta DC-8 crashed after an all-night flight at Naval Air Station Git'mo Bay, Cuba.

Until tragedies happened with US revenue passengers at LIT involving an MD-83, the FAA never required any pre-designated rest period during each 24 consecutive hours for standby flightcrew.

Having a brand-new FO with a Base Chief Pilot also created a situation whereby the Chief Pilot's judgement seemed not to have been questioned, no matter how 'mission-oriented' the guy was after a 12-hour duty day.

Civilian pilots often forget that most of us are NOT on a vital mission (i.e. rescue people at sea, resupply Khe Sanh or protect a Special Forces outpost during a siege etc)-they are operating an aircraft in order to make money for the stockholders.
Generally speaking, why should you be strictly 'mission-oriented', in order to get into the destination unless you mistakenly burned up too much fuel to safely make it to a 'suitable alternate' airport?

[Junkflyer]

You're right on the money with fatigue in the Gitmo crash. The faa for some reason has still not put a duty time limit on 3-seat a/c supplemental flight operations.

[18-Wheeler]

http://www.billzilla.org/sleep.gif

[Ignition Override]

Junkflyer:

I've chatted with two pilots who were 727 Captains at Champion, others flew years ago at Connie (Learjets) etc among many others. It sounds like few Captains had the backbone to tell Dispatch that 13-15 hours on duty was enough. One guy said that Dispatch yelled at him over the phone when he decided not to fly an extra leg and get the plane approaching a Florida city refueled and fly back to PHL or such.

As for the apparent nature of many bosses, never mind worrying about keeping your job if a Learjet engine flames out and you decide to 'declare an emergency' at FL 350...the boss would not be happy at all about the paper-work required for the FAA, and documents on engine maintenance...most pilots simply demanded a lower altitude with 'Center' and did a restart. In one episode, all three DC-8 crewmembers and the mechanic stood together, in order to convince Mr. Kallitta that there was no elevator hydraulic pressure and the plane would not rotate unless repaired.

One lady pilot told me that a young, intimidated Captain she worked with years ago somewhere else briefly considered a 1-engine takeoff in a small 2-engine cargo jet! The other engine would not start, and he was almost afraid to create problems by grounding the jet! :uhoh:

[lingasting]

Agree with 411a in this case.

It is better to have a crew member take 10 or 30 for that matter, than 2 or 3 flight deck crew members all battling to stay awake for 8 to 10 hours at a time. All trying to stay awake in the above scenario increases the chances of "all crew nodding off" at once. Seen it happen myself, as battling to stay awake, is a source of fatigue, in itself.

At least when a crew member has woken up from a nap, you have at least one crew member relatively "fresh" and this has to be a great asset should there be an emergency.

[Dream Land]

There is hardly any Asian airline that has a proper rest policy in it's books.I disagree completely, I can assure that they all have proper regulations in the manuals, implementation is another story, and it's very hard for cabin crew to check on the crew when they're all asleep too! :eek:

[Shiny side down]

It's as simple as 411 says. Agree between you if you want or need a nap.

To the CC, I just tell them that there will be one or other of us taking a power nap, don't ding on the call button, but just talk on the interphone (which is being monitored), and I'll answer, if they really feel in the need to do the 20 minute check. Mostly, I'll call them just to let them know that all is well.

It's another situation that SOPs gallore can be written for, but is best sorted with common sense. If comon sense doesn't start off by recognising that it is good practice, then all the SOPs in the world are not actually going to make life any better, just more tiring.

[barit1]

In the late 60s a TWA night cargo 707 westbound to LAX overflew the destination. ATC used selcal to wake them up before they ran dry. :ouch:

[eight16kreug]

We have a bloke who used to fly with an asian airline. Their longhaul procedure was to tell the Captain at 10,000 that it was now okay for him to hit the bunk while they took care of things. The FO and two SO's then took turns minding the store until TOD. Only problem they had was when the Captain, fully rested, would require them to join him shopping outstation. How's that for a proper rest policy not in the books?:ok:

[bubbers44]

We have all driven a car beyond our ability to stay awake and the same thing happens in the cockpit. In a perfect world you would go to work and fly fully refreshed and ready for a 12 hr duty day but some of the time that doesn't happen. It is much safer to take a nap than tough it out and try to stay awake. Personally I flew planes that flew during the day but when forced to fly all nighters when junior called in sick a lot. I just could not be alert on all nighters and that is not safe. I know it is unfair for the reserve guy. I don't know how the all nighter guys do it.

[Fokker28]

Cellphone...'airplane mode'...alarm set...'vibrate' mode...shirt pocket= no worries!

[A330AV8R]

AIRBUBBA


" Most modern Boeings n airbusses too have a feature which requires Pilot Attention if theres no input in the FMC "

LMAO LMFAO

Are you for real ???????????? :ugh:

hahahahahahahahahahaha I gotta share this one with the boys

lol

[Kiwiguy]

I remember an article in Playboy back in the Seventies about this topic. they cited a TWA 747 crew who slept half way across the Atlantic and those were the days of three man cockpits !

I could launch off with a very Seventies sexist joke about the flight attendants calling every 15 minutes but I shall refrain.:mad:

[das Uber Soldat]

I've been told that several Boeing Jets will display an EICAS message if there is no crew input for a certain period of time.

This is not true?

[Old King Coal]

I dunno what all the fuss is about... both pilots asleep happens and there are approved procedures to help alleviate it.

Click the following link to the UK CAA Safety Regulation Group: A Review of In-flight Napping Strategies (Updated 2003) (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2003_08.PDF)

[L337]

The 747-400 has a Crew Alertness Monitor. It will generate an Eicas message "Pilot input" required when no input has been detected. A press of the FMC, a brief click of the microphone, or an auto-pilot input clears the message.

If the message is not cleared, ie u are sleeping. The message gives and aural warning, and if it is still ignored I think it gives a constant aural warning. Not too sure tbh. As to date I have never seen it go beyond "pilot input".

So far. :P

[Dream Land]

777 Does also. :ok:

[TSR22]

Hi Guys,
I'm glad that this subject has been raised. I am working towards a professional flying career but havent got as far as the MCC course yet!:ugh: I was always worried about that aspect of the job - is it generally accepted for non-augmented crews to do the power nap thing (so long as one person stays awake)? Do airlines acknowledge that this may, at times, be necessary? I read the CAA document and it seems that they accept this practice under certain circumstances...
I just imagine a 3am start going from Manchester to calcutta or some other far flung destination - how does one stay awake through the monotony of the cruise?
I work 24 hour shifts in my current job (yes, I know it is against EWTD - we're working on that!), and I know how debilitating fatigue can be....:bored:
Thanks guys!:ok:
P.S. before some pundit says "if you dont like long hours, dont do the job" - I know about the long hours etc - but I like flying!!!!

[Max Angle]

There is no doubt that this occurs from time to time, some people fall asleep very easily and others don't. Personally I simply cannot nod off unless lying flat and basically in bed, believe me I have tried. However I have flown with (and know outside flying) some people who can fall asleep with incredible ease and are gone in a few seconds without even knowing it and seem powerless to stop it. Put two people like that together and the chances that both will be asleep at some point on a long night flight are pretty high I should think.

[Ipaq]

From today's Daily Mail (UK daily newspaper!)

........ The jet was 60 miles from landing at Denver and travelling at at a speed of 608mph - twice the recommended landing approach speed.
It was also at 35000feet - too high to begin it's approach to the landing runway!

Nice picture of an A319 too - didn't know it landed THAT fast or 35,000 feet was too high to start approach - must get the books out again!

Don't you just love reporters!

[layinlow]

There is not a cockpit crew member that hasn't had their eyes closed sometime during a flight. It just happened to that crew at a very unfortunate time. When I was flying, usually the Captain, or I would have a short "crew seat sleep schedule", it lasted about 15 minutes or so. Then everyone was bright a bushy tailed for the approach where you usually will get killed. I could be wrong but doesn't BA have a similar program?

[nurjio]

Ahem, with kipping pilots in mind, the B747-400 EICAS Message is: PILOT RESPONSE. It comes on after 20 minutes (ish) of cockpit inaction with the engines running. If no pilot responds, then a loud, rapid, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop kicks in. If still no response then all hell lets loose, bells, sirens, at al. It's difficult, nay impossible, to sleep on from the whoop whoop whoop whoop bit - trust me, it's 'kin loud - so, if the pilots fell asleep, the cabin crew fell asleep and all the passengers are asleep, a period of approximately 20 minutes would pass before the pilots would be woken by whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, followed rapidly by, 'Were you asleep?'.... 'er, no!, were you?'. :)

nurj :}


Edited to add, controlled rest is oft used in BA.

[XL5]

As a young first officer I too had problems staying awake in the wee hours until a senior captain was good enough to let me in on one of the tricks of the trade.

"Feeling sleepy there are we young XL5? Well, autopilot off, thumb in some nose down trim and hand fly. Should you drift off the yoke will slip from your fingers and the free-fall sensation of negative g will immediately bring you fully awake".

Sound advice, and I've successfully used this technique now for many years.

[overstress]

Thanks, XL5, ILMAO at that one! :D:p:)

[Dream Land]

Should you drift off the yoke will slip from your fingers and the free-fall sensation of negative g will immediately bring you fully awake". That technique may have been good several years ago, nowadays all airspace is RVSM and lot's of folks are all on the centerline, no room for an oops me thinks. :eek:

[SOPS]

Autopilot off..hand flying..falling asleep??...Dont know about the negative G, but the bang when you hit something might wake you up....!!!!!:hmm:

[dazdaz]

Tip for Captains, (just an idea) give the f/o a kiss on the cheek, he'll be too scared to nod-off:ok:

Daz

[Stingaling]

dazdaz

Good one! I like that one!

I going to try that one on some unfortunate sod who even dares to yawn in my presence, on the flight deck. Ha!:D

Mind you, it could "back fire" if I picked the wrong one, if you get my drift. Well it's not only cabin crew these days is it........:(

[earnesteric]

It's the "Unexpected" bit that tickles me. I'll bet the CAA/ JAA believe in Father Christmas too!

[eight16kreug]

Sometimes the regulations world has to be protected from the real world, hence their "unexpected" fatigue call. LH flyers in the real world know that fatigue IS expected.

Maybe Sting should realize that in the real world, unfortunate sods will nod off much less yawn in the flight deck. And speaking of unexpected, be prepared for any unexpected reaction to a kiss on the cheek.

But as long as it keeps everyone awake... Better than going through a blow by blow of your last 2 under at the local golf club.:)

[Ignition Override]

DreamLand:

Normally most pilots are on the centerline. It is because they "fly" glass c0ckpits-so to speak-while the rest of us dinosaurs try to be near it on the VOR course/radial as we grab the big thunderstorm lights switch in order to recheck the "High Charts" with aging eyeballs.

ATC here has become quite spoiled. So many Controllers now have no chance to ride on the jumpseats and compare various aircraft operations, since 9/11.

By the way PPruners,

'Airbubba' has linked us to many excellent aviation topics, among others, i.e. 'Wino' and 'Huck'. As to how they find the sources, I sometimes have no idea.

Airbubba's experiences are also real-not those 'gleaned' from studying textbook academia and rigid SOPA mantras in a soft chair (often as an assumed substitute for solid 'real world' experience).

'Books will not cushion a meeting of rocks and metal', or whatever the late Earnest Gann said in "Fate Is The Hunter."

[stator vane]

figure 1-"typical nocturnal pattern of sleep in a YOUNG ADULT"

good one--

[crjo]

Hello all...

I flew 747s for Air France (pax and cargo) for about 6 years, and I remember that the MAIN objective on these long flights was : REST Whenever you can !

We had these NASA naps in our SOP, and it was just that : a standard procedure... NO CRM needed. The captain simply could not refuse ! (of course the timing was agreed upon, but if a captain declared "no naps in my cockpit", the F/O could say something like "really ? well... no F/O either then !")

the object was to be in shape for a safe appproach and landing.

take care...

[Airbubba]

The 747-400 has a Crew Alertness Monitor. It will generate an Eicas message "Pilot input" required when no input has been detected. A press of the FMC, a brief click of the microphone, or an auto-pilot input clears the message.

777 Does also.

It's on some 767's as well, perhaps the Microsoft pilots here always stay awake and have never seen it. :)

[SRS]

Our company uses 15 minutes of inactivity before pilot response is activated. Any movement of any switch(Hdg on MCP) or a transmission will reset the system. I believe that if ignored after a brief time lapse an EICAS warning message PILOT RESPONSE is displayed.

Thanks for the CAA reference on In-flight Napping Strategies ( 2003)
If there are other references from the same or any other source they would be appreciated.