An epileptic pilot could be flying in India??

[Nevrekar]

An epileptic pilot could be flying you
1 Nov 2007, 0414 hrs IST,Manju V ,TNN

MUMBAI: Desperate situations seem to call for desperate measures. Faced with an acute shortage of qualified pilots in the country, a low-cost airline based in north India has thrown caution to the winds and allowed two of its commanders to fly despite medical conditions that deem them unfit for the cockpit job.

The more blatant of the two cases is that of an Indian commander in his forties. He lost his Airline Transport Pilot’s Licence after failing an EEG (the test needed to verify if a person is prone to epileptic fits) but then claimed Rs 50 lakh as insurance money for loss of licence and then rejoined the airline with a fresh US licence.

"They do not have an EEG for a pilot's medical test in the US. He also probably did not mention his medical condition in the test there. What is shocking is that the airline, despite knowing that the pilot was prone to epileptic attacks, took him back," an airline official said.

"We will look into the matter. How can he fly in India if he failed medicals here?" said director-general of civil aviation Kanu Gohain.

The other case involves a 60-plus US citizen who has only one kidney; that, too, is borrowed. Medical practitioners say he can be deemed fit to fly but needs to go through tests before flying.

Aviation industry insiders say the growing demand for experienced pilots will only prompt airlines to be more lenient in such cases.

"After the retirement age was increased from 60 to 65 in 2004, retirements froze for a while as 60-plus commanders continued to fly. But there will be a spate of retirements in 2009. It's also the time when the country will need every single experienced commander it has," Capt Yashraj Tongia of Yash Air, a flying school in Ujjain, said.

The pilot who rejoined the airline armed with an American licence took advantage of one simple rule: aspiring pilots did not have to undergo an EEG test for clearing the medicals in the US.

Airline industry insiders admit it is a blatant case of bending the rules with impunity. "DGCA had cancelled his licence to fly because of his epileptic condition. But the airline recruited him again last month despite knowing his medical condition," an airline official said.

[Rotorhead1026]

Well, the pilot with the one kidney is easy. If he's abiding by the terms of his FAA Class 1 (special issuance, I assume) then his medical's valid and he's good to go. Now the DGCA may decide otherwise later, but right now they require only a valid FAA Class 1 to validate a US license.

The "epileptic" is another matter. Did he ever have a seizure? If so, and he didn't report it on the FAA form, his medical's invalid - and he's subject to prosecution (perjury) in the US (and probably in India too). If he never had a seizure, one wonders how definitive the test was. Since I'm certainly not a brain surgeon, I can't answer. I'm not an attorney, either, so I'm not certain if a "failed EEG" (whatever that may be) HAS to be reported as such to the FAA (except under the "visits to a medical professional in the last three years" section). If Oke City hears about it (I'll bet they will) they'll require a lot of additional tests at the very least. Only thing I'm sure of is that I'm really glad I'm not this fellow, for a lot of reasons. And I wonder what his insurance company thinks of this ... :confused:

And I should also note that he may have been completely up front with the FAA, brought in his test results, passed all required follow-up tests, and got his medical issued properly with the FAA concluding he was not an epileptic. :)

[NG ExPat]

Folks because this article specifically addresses me, I would like to clear the air on the issues.

Once again, it appears that an Ex Captain who was terminated from his previous employer is trying to stir the pot, by providing unfounded and totally truthless information to his favorite alarmist reporter.

Quotes from the article:

"Borrowed Kidney." Pretty funny, the donor saw this article this morning, and has said that I can keep the kidney, so it is not borrowed.

"He has lost both his kidneys, lives on a transplanted one, is more than 60 years old." Nope, I didn't lose both my kidneys, I did however lose the kidney function. Yes I live on a transplanted one. No, I have not reached the age of 60 yet. I out of 3 statements being true, pretty poor average.

"Moreover, the pilot also hid this fact, that he was living with a borrowed kidney from his medical examiners. This is evident from his medical certificate." Don't know how much further from the truth a statement could be. I was the FAA that lifted my Medical Certificate almost 4 years ago, because my kidney function dropped to unacceptable levels. I had the transplant, and the hoops and exams that I had to endure in order for the FAA to reissue my First Class Medical, far surpass any examination that Mr. Ranganathan has ever had to endure. So I truly resent the implication that I am not fit to fly. As for my Medical Certificate reflecting the fact that I hid those facts from the AME, who ever provided that information has no idea what they are talking about.

"But medical practioners feel the element of risk for passengers if a pilot lives on one borrowed kidney (there is that idiotic phase again) depends on the specific case.......But then this person should be medically checked for these factors before he can be deemed fit to fly." I am thoroughly examined by my Nephrologist every 90 days. I have absolutely no side effects from the immuno suppressants that I have to take. My blood pressure is well within acceptable values, and my kidney function if better than most people half my age.

One last item that needs to be addressed. Manju V and his buddy Ranganathan have eluded to an idea in previous articles that the reason the FAA does not allow commercial flying past 60 is due to medical concerns. That is totally incorrect. The age 60 rule in the US came about in 1959. CR Smith, then President of American Airlines and one of his military buddies who was he Chief of the then CAA came up with this number. American Airlines was about to embark into the Jet Age, and Mr. Smith did not want to have to pay his Senior Captains the kind of money they would get to fly the 707's. It was purely an economic move. So Manju, get your facts straight, due some investigation before you put something in print.

Lastly to Mr. Ranganathan. You need to crawl back under the rock from whence you came. You are a total disgrace to the Worldwide Aviation Community. Personally I think your fitness to fly should be in question. Anyone who keeps launching these attacks on what amounts to be the entire Aviation Industry of India, with no basis for fact, has to have their mental stability in question!!

[RnR]

NgExpat,

Good on you buddy,
these people do not deserve any respect.
safe landings always:ok:

Off to,

RnR.

[AIEXPATS]

Hey Nev, do us all a favour, respect your colleagues' privacy and find some other topic to write about. :=

[Rotorhead1026]

Now, now - calm down ... it was in the "news". I've had a few medical issues myself, which is why I found it interesting. I'm glad NGExpat is okay, and won't have to pay overdue library charges on his kidney. I assume the "epileptic" case was overhyped and distorted as well ...

[getsetgo]

Mr ...so n so..
DGCA KNOWS EACH AND EVERY PILOT
this is one of the best DGCA.....OR ....CAA....OR FAAA...OR JAAAA.
and doing a good job.
i understand yor are not really close to ABC of safe aviation...which is very much intact so far with DGCA.
ARE you a flight dispacher?......or a doctor?.....scheduler?
may be you wont understand most of these.....good luck
try not to interfear pilots forum....:=

[roboratski]

ngex,you may have lost your kidneys but atleast you still have your humour:) keep it up buddy!!!

[Nevrekar]

My post was not in any way intended to invade anyone's privacy. It was simply a reprint of an article which was on the frontpage of yesterday's newspaper. There seem to be a lot of anti-expat articles of late and I was simply posting it for the benefit of prpuners. My sincere apologies to all parties if my actions were viewed differently. Especially to NGEXpat.

[speedtwoten]

AIEXPATS, at least Nevrekar speak the truth about what happen in India like you speak about the tax that never been paid in this forum, this India what we are talking about a people full of trick and cheating:\, as expat only between us we can exchange information.

[NG ExPat]

As the donor (and yes I am still very much alive), I am appalled by the unfounded facts printed printed in this publication.

This kidney was "lovingly" given, not leant nor borrowed (I do not want it back)! And, actually, he is in better health than 99% of the world because he has 3 kidneys! True, 2 of them don't function as well as they should, which is where the 3rd one kicks in but non-the-less is better than most.

Here in the United States we do not view a 60 year old as worthless, but rather value their skills, knowledge, experience and life!

Gee, I guess, if India euphenized everyone over the age of 60 (which evidently Indians never attain) then India would not need any assistance is joining the 21st century.

Last but not least, the commander of these Indian airlines earned the title of "Captain"!

P.S. - Nevrekar we have no problem with your posts.

Signed: The loving wife and kidney donor

[Rotorhead1026]

Well ... agreed on the comments about sixty-somethings in the US, as far as the general population goes. I just wish it applied to airline pilots. Maybe it will, eventually.

When I think of "the ties that bind", body parts don't normally come to mind ... but whatever works, works. I'm glad it worked out for both of you. Continued good luck ... :)

[Nevrekar]

Perhaps being slapped with a costly lawsuit will stop these kinds of articles from making the press.

[robert3791]

Nevrekar you are right ,hunt those newspapers down with a lawsuit . Can you all imagine the trouble that can be caused by articles like these to a pilot ? Life is difficult enough already without this "rubbish".
Fellow pilots have to support each other ,regardless , and I can only applaud that NGexpat is fit and in good health .

Happy landings to all of you :D

[AIEXPATS]

Speed210, let me clarify something: AIEXPATS is a name used by several expats, across aircraft types and nationalities. For instance, while I did not write a word concerning the tax issue, I did express my opinion on medical privacy and again, medical issues are a confidential topic between the patient and his/her physician; in the case of aviatiors, between the governing/regulatory body and the flight crewmember. It seems to me it is their business, not yours, not mine, not Nev's not the journos'. A general topic of health is in my view ok, but referring to a specific case is not; it is already a shame that to fill newspaper or magazine pages, some editors throw ethics out the window.

[NG Driver]

As an expat pilot living and working in India, and a physician (kept the license, no long practising obviously) I read the referenced article this moring in Times of India and just smiled and turned the page. Sometimes it seems that India is just one big game of "gotcha". Bollywood stars and expat pilots are favorite targets. Shame on this reporter Manju V. who keeps writing crap, half-truth's and lies. But don't fool yourself into believing that anything will change. He'll continue to get all his info from sources that have other agendas like ATC, SWIP, and disgruntled expats themselves.

The Indian aviation boom is a great opportunity for the 600 or so of us that are over here. Some are grateful, some just complain. That's life, and it's largely the same at American or Delta.

I especially liked what Rotorhead had to say. He brought out the exact same questions raised in my mind as I read the article. I'm not a brain surgeon either, but i can tell you that if the man never had a seizure, then to disqualify him based on somerhing someone saw on an EEG would be nefarious at best, incompetence at worst. It would also be exactly the kind of thing that happens over here.

Gotta take the bad with the good, and never throw out the baby with the bathwater!

[av8r76]

It's amazing that the same story in his hometown was covered by the media as a positive inspirational topic while the same issue can be viewed with such negativity by the Indian media.

It's time the Indian media took their blinders off and begin reporting relevant and accurate articles about aviation. All these clippings of high drama go arounds, over exaggeration of pilot shortages and and hell will break lose expat hiring is not helping or portraying the industry in a favourable light. Someone needs to put a stop to this ignorance and xenophobia.

They need to realise that aviation is now integral part of India'a economy and not a rich man's toy. Such irresponsibility only exposes the immaturity and lack of knowledge of journalists. Maybe a defamation lawsuit will shake this journo off his little non accountable pedestal.

I wish NG Expat all the best and hope to fly with you soon and personally discuss this journalistic hissy fit.

[getsetgo]

so understand you are also not a reporter from media press.
its very rare to come across sadistic people living on this globe and looking in to others plate, you are one identified your self.
very soon indian medical board will start phycometry tests :ok: wish good luck to you nervekar.:ugh:

[Nevrekar]

Getsetgo--Huh? What exactly are you trying to say?

[rajchid26]

I was equally unhappy reading the atcle,it just shows poor unity within the community.As far as i know ,there ain't an epileptic pilot.It apparently refers to one of my friends who had a cancer problem and i ,for one, am very glad to see him flying as a capt.A leak from some one within(???) has put the cat among the pigeons.that pilot has been cleared by FAA/Canada/Australia/NZ.
Anand Nevrekar has just done his job of keeping the community(expats) informed of the articles in the Indian media. And Im sure he has no mal intent.
The DGCA has asked and obtained necessary clearances about the pilot including his statements to medical authorities everywhere. I understand there has been no effort on his part to hide information, and as a good old soldier he stated his facts fairly clearly.
Sensationalising does help such issues but since public memory is short, I do hope it will be filed away. What the Indian pilots would like is similar medical standards like the FAA has for those above 60. This is by far the most important point as Indian pilots are made to undergo extensive medical examinations once they cross 55 and it increases once they cross 60. If this sensational journalism helps in standardising medical examination stds then it has served its purpose, otherwise its pure yellow dirty stuff.

[getsetgo]

media is doing there job to fill the paper with spice.
civil aviation doing there job by making flying safe.
india follows ICAO medical health standreds strictly.
if some body is flying with lower medical standreds that means he/she flying on his countries licence and not indian licence.

recently civil aviation had English competency test introduced, and now it looks to be Psychometry soon.

i don"t know what prompted you to reprint a Newspaper article.
without understanding/knowing circumctances and fects of civil aviation in the region.

when short on information best is not to count others kidneys,not to look others plate and eat what you have in your plate.

[Nevrekar]

Getsetgo--I normally would not dignify your reply with a response but I feel that in light of what you have stated I probably should. First off, PPrune forums are for exchange of ideas, information, dialogue etc. You don't always have the same point of view but you can voice your opinion with respect and integrity. When I came across the article I found it to be rather bizarre, almost unbelievable. Therefore I thought it would be on interest to Ppruners.
Apparently some of you thought it was in poor taste, and I acknowledge that.
You will find that I even posted an apology to those I may have offended. There is not much else I can do. When I posted the article I had no idea who there were talking about. Now ofcourse NGexpat has said that he is one of the parties mentioned. If NGexpat & his family have no issue with my post, then I don't see why you should continue with these comments.
And by the way I am quite familiar with civil aviation (been in it over 25 years). I have also flown all over the world and lived in countries you cannot spell. I hope that you are not a pilot because your spelling and command of the english knowledge is a disgrace. Let me list some of your spelling errors: there job, civil aviation there job, standreds, fects, circumcstances. You may pass the psychometry test but I doubt you will make it through the english!
Have a nice life.

[getsetgo]

Navrekar…when I saw your topic (cut and paste job) as a layman I understood it as some body is trying to malign his own fellow worker at his work place.
I hope your job helps the ppruners. At the same time I wish it is also helpful for your fellow colleagues.
From some of the replies in the thread what I understand that many others read the newspaper articles but they refrained to do the way you did.
And they are equally updated with the newspapers, your working environment
And other means of information.

Certainly with 25 years in the job nobody will put his fellow buddies in cut and paste manner, and then get away by saying sorry to them, some times its not the just individual and his immediate family but all who are in the same profession are like one family.(mostly).

With due respect to your 25 years in the job and working in so many countries like a rolling stone, it can happen if the employer is not liking the attitude and fires, then no choice but to move to next country.
As far as my spelling check…..this job is done by my secretary.

And I am typing from a keyboard which does not have English characters keys.
(So it’s hard to catch-up with proper words)
This keyboard is different and is another language which you won’t understand.

Your thought is very positive to help ppruners, but action not really so,
And if it was substantiated with some substance and that would have really be nice.
Because newspapers every body reads.

[Nevrekar]

Getsetgo--I should have clarified. My living in many countries all over the world has nothing to do with aviation or being fired by employers as you have suggested. My father being a career diplomat for over 30 years was given assignments every 3 years as is customary. Most of my adult life was spent in the USA with airlines that provided me with international flying. PM me for any further exchanges.

[getsetgo]

regarding medical issue for a pilot not meeting the requirements of the medical board at india.
pilot can make an appeal to the medical board though DGCA.
there after
Normally borderline cases are ok to fly on indian licence as well.
and recommended route to fly is consult DGCA approved spacialist,get the required checks done,After spacialist opinion & recommendation make an appeal to DGCA assesment board. thats all is required.

Non ETOPS route is keep away from your colegues:}

average life expectancy india is 50-60 years
hats off to DGCA and medical board who kept pilots healthy above 65 yrs.

[NG ExPat]

Well thanks to Manju V and Mr. Ranganathan, I have lost my job in India. The half truths and lies that were printed regarding me has caused the DGCA to lift my FATA and not allow me to fly.

The saddest part is that I somewhat trusted my airlines Indian management to get this matter put to bed. Wrong again....they dont have the balls to stand up to the DGCA. I have asked to see a copy of this decision in writing, but those requests go unanswered. As have the requests to apply for loss of license insurance.

They dont even have the courtesy to pay me for at least the 30 days that my contract calls for.

Word to those of you thinking about going to India......DO NOT do it.....if you think you are protected by your contract you are sadly mistaken. You might as well wipe your butt with it, because that is about all it is good for.

[speedtwoten]

Word to those of you thinking about going to India......DO NOT do it.....if you think you are protected by your contract you are sadly mistaken. You might as well wipe your butt with it, because that is about all it is good for.

do not go to India only Capt. Navrekar looks like to be proud to all this bull:mad:company here, I do have the same experience as NG Expat with Jet Lite formely Air Sahara, initially I have hope when Jet Airways take Air Sahara over but funniest things are they still hire the same management that bring Air Sahara down, so Jet Airways bought Air Sahara just only to change the name to Jet Lite, then all expat leave:{

[FLCH]

I'm so sorry to hear about you losing you job thanks to half truths and sloppy reporting, and your company not having the balls to back you up shows how indifferent to an employee they can be. A shameful day for aviation in India. I'll be sure and drink a cold beer to your good health on my next trip. FLCH

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Dear NG Expat,

I am really sorry to hear of your plight. The back stabbing mentality of the aviation community astounds and astonishes me. Just a poor bloke that wants to go flying and earn his daily bread. And, legally to boot.

I wish you every success in the future. Perhaps as one door closes a more promising door will open.

Regards,

Wooblah.

[Nevrekar]

I am equally saddened to hear of this event. It is important for management to take the high road on this issue. Leaving someone out to dry without a proper explanation, loss of license insurance and pay is not right.
It is very unfortunate that they have not done so.It's not about who's right but what is right. Speedwotten- My positive remarks about Spicejet and India are based on my very own experience thus far but I am painfully aware that not everyone shares the same sentiment. I only report what I am aware of or what I have experienced. My negative comments regarding Spicejet relate to rostering. They advertised a monthly schedule when I joined. It was very attractive at the time as I envisioned being able to make plans, travel and have social gatherings at home. That concept has been a flop show. The roster is a daily/hourly one and I work 6 days a week.The only way of knowing my day off is when I fly 6 days, and they have to give me the day off. But I realize that everyone (including locals) are flying 6 days a week. So I don't feel that special! NG expat--I wish you well and godspeed. You were targeted for some reason and it was shameful the way it was done. Shame on those responsible for your involuntary departure

As far as rostering, to be fair to Spicejet--They have tried to accomodate whenever possible in order for me to fulfill certain social/family obligations.

[getsetgo]

old thread ...........my view over this period of time.
as i see NG Expat is a very honest pilot.
what i guessed a year back ,its confirmed.
this act of cut and paste job is done by his own cowrker.
expat pilot no need to do indian medical ,but NG Expat was made to do by same people ,same company ,same jungle.
by now jungle is well cultivated.

what a shame.

[weido_salt]

The EEG is archaic. It is a tool to induce an epileptic fit. When it does what is expected they pull the medical. (God there some brillant minds around that think this crap up). Well cool, the subject is not perfect. Anyone on the boards who is a perfect specimen? Of course not. We are all going to die, therefore not perfect. We all have cancer that will manifest itself at a later date if we live long enough, so let's all ground ourselves.

Why not introduce a test to induce cardiac arrest? Now there's an idea, what? Let's load the candidate up to the point he/she has a heart attach. Good catch that, then if they weren,t fit to fly before the test they certainly wont be fit to fly after the test.

India needs to get into the first world on this and not remain in the dark ages. India could learn a lot from our friends in the US. If you are old enough to remember, it was the Americans who put a man on the moon 40 years ago next year.

India is talking about putting a man on the moon by 2015 I believe. Well it wont happen. The reason being all the candidates will fail the medical!!! The medical standards are such that almost nobody is fit enough to operate an aircraft, multi crew, so it would be out of the question to find a perfect specimen suitable for space flight.:ugh:

[Rotorhead1026]

The reason being all the candidates will fail the medical!!!


ROTFL!!!! Well put! :):)

Maybe they'll farm it out to an agency and put expats on the moon, with a FATA.

[av8r76]

That's all good but DGCA says... sorry, decrees no expats after 2010. So they are stuck finding an Indian superhuman.;)

[NG ExPat]

Getsetgo,

Thank you for your kind words. Sometimes you truly amaze me. But please do not pick on Neverkar. He was doing nothing more than passing on a well publicized news story.

While last year at this time, I certainly failed to see much humor in the situation, I have since realized that the entire situation really was somewhat humorous.

An idiot Newspaper Reporter, taking some totally false information from another idiot who had been fired at Spice Jet. Talk about a lack of credibility on both sides!

As a side note, I am well employed with my "borrowed kidney." I always thought the word borrowed meant that at sometime you had to give it back!!

[Rotorhead1026]

av8r76:

sorry, decrees no expats after 2010


I thought that only applied to Earth. Rather than deporting us, they may just fire us off into space!


NGExpat:

I am well employed with my "borrowed" kidney

Funny how things work out. If this hadn't happened you might be stuck in a less-desirable situation over here. You hit the trail at the right time. Manju and whats-his-name did you a favor, it seems.

Yeah, love the term "borrowed". What's the interest rate on a human organ?

[NG ExPat]

It cost me a new Mercedes!!!

[Rotorhead1026]

It cost me a new Mercedes!!! The kidney cost you that, or the job change?

You could always trade the kidney back in for the car, but a Benz would look funny towing a dialysis machine around ...

Sorry, couldn't resist ... :):)

[getsetgo]

dear NG Expat
very good to see you are flying, and flying in a civilised world.
enjoy flying and i wish every thing best.:ok:

[getsetgo]

wiedo salt
if india becomes like US or dgca like FAA then pilot production will go up.
by 2010 too many will be siiting looking for jobs.
so enjoy the 3rd world.

some how in this thread NG Expat (expat pilot) was sent to do medical at dgca by expat management.
his expat friends did cut n paste job.
NG Expat passed the medical examination.
still he loose job n money due to him.(i guess)
medical is someones personal issue, even if the company knew this,it was very bad on part of the company to make it public in this manner and also send the pilot to dgca medical.
some one leaked company information.

when expats push expats for medical at dgca, dgca against wish has to do the needful.Even dgca didnot like spicejet sending expat for medical.

incredible india is just watching this circus, most of the rules are same for FATA etc.

dgca still follows old rules which are hard to change till 2037.
so enjoy FATA ,donot worry about medicals.

speedtwoton remarks above worth a note.

speedwoten

most of the complaints from passenger and pilots are from low cost operators, and they do not pay dues when you have left the company.

[boeingdream787]

Getsetgo....................Just what the f*****g hell are u talking about......????!!!?
And whats this about 2037...??
Year u gonna stop writing mebbe....:eek:

[Boeing7xx]

NGExpat, I truly empathise with your situation. Half baked reporters and over enthusiasitc captains have taken down complete airlines in India (Remember Alliance Air), petty politics is pretty common amongst pilots in India. I'd say take a deep breath and sue the hell out of the airline that denied you the basics of honoring a contract.

What shocked me more than the age limit 60-65 being talked about is that India has captains who are under 30. How does that make sense? You can trust someone with 2000hrs TT but not someone who has 10000hrs++ TT... Wierd.

Godspeed and hope to see you in the skies soon enough.

[Flaperon777]

Hello Mr Getsetgo,
Just wondering,why all the fuss of flying on one kidney.In my country,the medical board considers it perfectly normal for a pilot to continue his normal flying ops with one solo kidney.Provided he comes up with some satisfactory tests.Just wondering,why all this fuss....

[Rotorhead1026]

Just wondering,why all this fuss....

An inaccurate assumption in your post. Read the entire thread for details, and I'm sure NG Expat will chime in soon as well. :)

[Geebz]

I agree with Nev. You ought to sue this reporter for not getting his facts straight.

Honestly folks, journalists worldwide are causing havoc everythwere. I support their right and intest to report but there ought to be accountability. 40% of the Global Meltdown was caused by over-hyped, senstionalized journalism.

There are too many newspapers, too many news channels, hence too many hack reporters just looking for a story... any story. I treat them all like I do OPEC. We need them but I restrain my participation in their products. The world broke the back of OPEC by finally cuttingback demand. The same should be done to media.

Get your news, then shut the tube off. Let the advertisers pull their funds and see how many new organizations stick around. The only trustwrothy media outlet left is probably the AP.

[Rotorhead1026]

You ought to sue this reporter for not getting his facts straight


No disrespect intended, but ...

You're joking, right? Zero chance. I don't even know where you'd start
to do something like that over here. Wonder what class of entry visa he'd have to apply for to come in and testify? The general public, the DGCA, and - frankly - the court itself would all be stacked against him. Even if he won, collecting damages would be next to impossible. C'mon ...



The only trustwrothy media outlet left is probably the AP


Now I know you're joking! :):)