V Australia now live.

[dragonflyhkg]

Guys/Gals,

The new website for Virgin Blue's international B777 operation in Australia is now live. Links to V-Australia employment applications appear to be also available.

http://www.vaustralia.com.au/

Cheers

[wareyeknee]

Check out the aviation section of Fridays edition (November 2nd) of "The Australian" for more info.

The Zookeeper was quoted some time back: "oh yes, lots will apply. But WE know that no one will leave Cathay". :cool:

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHA! :}

For a very intelligent individual in his own right, it's a pity he doesn't know an aileron from an elavator (no Nik, that's not a lift in Swire House -- just in case you were wondering). Just a pity that he has to rely on minions who have risen through the nullah pile over the years who are only thinking of their mansions in Phuket.

As another poster alluded to in another thread, CX is only a few months behind KA.

[air pressure]

Wareyeknee: sorry to have to bring this up mate, but if you are going to attempt to wind up someone by mentioning a specific (elavator) you really need to check the spelling first....ok? 'E-L-E-V-A-T-O-R'
Otherwise, he will think we are a bit of a joke....:hmm:

[Frogman1484]

Does anyone know what Package and conditions we are applying for?

[Aussie]

Word on the street is around the 185K for Capt, but who knows!

[Fenwicksgirl]

Well i hope that Virgin dont "try it on" with some lame pay and conditions in the hope that they will get a flood of applicants anyway....but then again, it would make good business sense. Watch this space, will be very interesting in the next year.
Lets say they pay $220,000 AUD = $1.54M HKD
Current B-scale Captain $1.274M HKD (incl 13th month)
Obviously tax/housing will even it all out but hey, not in Hong Kong to lick stamps, here to make money. Nick, the "worth our while to live in HKG" gap has closed.......dont like it then leave formula wont work because guys/gals can now!!!!!

[MinimaNoContact]

Word on the street is around the 185K for Capt

Yuk... after Aussie tax that'd be ordinary. VB 737 Skippers are on around 165

[Fenwicksgirl]

Well forget my $220000 then.....

[galdian]

For Interest $185,000 PA would give you $10,179 net each month
$220,000 PA would give you $11,783 net each month.

Straight figures - if you can factor in deductions (negative gearing, wife and kids, alimony & maintenance (:eek:) ) etc then obviously net will improve.

Not sure if medicare levy is part of tax as calculated above or extra/additional.
Obviously AU$$$"s

Cheers :ok:

[svengoren]

I see they are coming to Hong Kong for recruitment

[CXtreme]

Greed Greed Greed.
Why is it always the calculator that wins in all my discussions with my CX co-workers? Punch the calculator as much as you like but there are more important issues to consider. I am looking at taking a position on a much smaller commuter aircraft.

As an Aussie, or any one who qualify for this position, how much value do you put on clean air, clean ocean’s etc.

So you are going to make (maybe) more money at CX. At what price??
At what cost to your family? Unstable rostering, being cat B at any time you disagree with the 3rd floor, very suspect checking, sorry, training (being sold to juniors as superior) being fired for “no apparent reason” etc.

When deciding on a flying career in the late 70’s I always knew money would not be the motivator, rather work satisfaction. I knew working for the Air Force will never make me a rich man. Fortunately this has changed over the last 28 years. This does not means I am going to prostitute myself to the highest bidder or the one with the biggest and shiniest fleet. I always remember why I decided on this occupation and that is where I am going back to.

If you have the opportunity to improve your situation, even at a reduced income, just do it!.
I don’t want to be like some of the very rich guys I fly with that don’t know how to retire. I’ll rather die a poor old man then a rich young man.

Then you have to look at how your conditions have been reduced over the last couple of years in CX, where as I believe a new start up can only improve with time.

[fatbus]

V Aus will have no problems getting 777 pilots from EK/CX at lower wages just to be back home. This becomes a lifestyle issue and its hard to put a price on lifestyle .

[Apple Tree Yard]

Is it true that an ex CX skipper is heading Flt Ops for V Aus...?

[b1rd55]

GM Flight Operations is a South African ex Amiri flight. Head of Check and Training is another South African ex South African Airways.

[Beta Light]

Yip, Both ex S.A.A. management pilots. One did take his hat and spend time in the Middle East when he saw the writing on the wall with the political interference at S.A.A..
Worked with one in the past and met the other occasionally at a social level and found them both gentlemen.

[Lowkoon]

Cxtreme, did you come to Hong Kong for the fresh air and wide open spaces? Money never entered your mind during your decision making to join CX? Sounds like porky pies to me big fella! :ok:

Greed is that someone who has made all their money, then saunter back to Australia, take a job at well below industry rates, 'because they dont need the money anymore', and support a company that charges pilots for endorsements, and selfishly sits back sipping his coffee wondering what all these whinging junior pilots are so pi$$ed off about. Prostituting your self to the lowest bidder, as in this case, does a lot more damage to the long term future of junior pilots than voting with your feet for better terms and conditions. Senior pilots are selfishly doing alot of damage to the industry by accepting these conditions, and it is the junior guys left carrying the can, by paying for their endorsements, and having poor T&Cs agreed to by senior guys who didnt have to pay because they got a free one at CX or EK, and had earnt enough to go home comfortably well off... "Its just a retirement position, a bit of fun for the last few years right?"

Some people were hoping for a career like you had. I think if you have done well out of the industry, you owe it to the industry to maintain its hard fought terms and conditions as you leave, not kick down the sand castles as you leave the beach, so no one else can enjoy it when you leave. Now thats my idea of greedy.

[CXtreme]

Lowkoon,
Must be mistaken me for someone else. Never made the BIG money as a year 5 freighter F/O.

I am going for lifestyle.

But I do agree with a lot of what you say.

[Lowkoon]

Sorry Cx, thought you joined in the "hey day" 70s 80s. Still stand by what I said though! :ok:

[sanook]

Let's not be delusional. Any company offering T & C from the eighties operating today would be facing financial ruin. The market has fundamentally changed,just look at the capacity on any route compared to twenty years ago. Revenues? Just look at what passengers pay now for flights....... In a year's time anyone will be able to fly around the globe on low cost carriers. If you were around then, Well done! but today it couldn't be justified.

[Lowkoon]

Qantas pay more now than they did in the 70s and 80s, Im sure if we put our heads together for more than a billionth of a second we could come up with more. Low cost propaganda, "We just cant pay you any more because we cant make any more" is just bs. Sorry to hear there are airline people who still believe the mantra. Just because cx and ka dont pay A scale wages anymore, doesnt mean other companies around the world havent improved T and Cs since then. The A scale wages were unique to this region to attract people to come here. You can bet we are going to see profitable airlines offer attractive packages again to attract suitable crew, and amazingly they will still be able to remain profitable!

[arse]

I had heard that only the initial 777 intake will be from outside VB and after that they will promote from inside VB. Anyone else heard anything along these lines? Would this mean a single VB seniority list with 777 new joiners joining on the bottom.

If this is true then FOs might be "stuck" in the right seat for quite a while! If not, then the upgrade from right to left would otherwise expected to be quite quick as more aircraft arrive!

With stacks of EK and CX guys looking at this, getting a position might not be as easy as it sounds!

"Now where is that calculator to update that logbook?" ;)

Cheers

[Ramboflyer 1]

Dont expext a quick upgrade on the 777 , maybe an erj command after a couple of years , and thats where youll stay.

[hongkongfooey]

Anybody know the details of VBs visit to HK ?

185K unlikely as the new EBA gives a 737 skipper circa 180K ( plus O/T and callouts )

Anyone think they will be desperate enough to take 73 skippers with int'l experience ( not L/H ) :confused:

[amos2]

Young selfish idiots like lowkoon are the deadbeats of modern day aviation!

"Get outa my way you old bastards, I want the lot, NOW!"

[jtr]

Awww go on Amos, tell us how you really feel.

[A. Le Rhone]

Well hang on Amos....I'm not sure about Lowkoons other posts (and I do agree with you sentiment about some young experts wanting it all 'now') but I think he had a fine point in his post above.

Sanook, are you for real? "Let's not be delusional. Any company offering T & C from the eighties operating today would be facing financial ruin".

How did you work that little gem out? Pilots are a commodity, just like fuel. There's not enough fuel around so airlines have had to pay more for it. Some of these airlines are still making record profits (and paying their CEO's record wages).

There aren't enough pilots around so airlines will have to pay more, much more and also offer better lifestyles.

Some drivvel about markets having 'fundamentally changed' is just bollocks turned out by the likes of that Ryanair goose O'Leary.

It's basic economics 101 and that hasn't changed since cavemen ruled businesses.

[Classic Dick]

will have no problems getting 777 pilots from EK/CX at lower wages just to be back home. That's what Jet Star thought when they started recruiting for the A330. Didn't work out that way. Money & lifestyle worked out better with EK.:ok:

[Lowkoon]

Have a re read Amos2, then get back to working out how to get your stock quotes out of ACARS. :ugh:

[hongkongfooey]

There aren't enough pilots around so airlines will have to pay more, much more and also offer better lifestyles

Yeh, but how long are we gonna have to wait for this :confused::ugh:
I keep hearing it, and actually believe it, but waiting for the " sign "

[jtr]

Well if people would stop working on G days thereby bailing the company out of the shiite, reducing crew costs, and negating pressure that could be applied to the company to employ more pilots and thereby give a better lifestyle..... maybe you would see it sooner.

A -400 Captain worked a G day recently and was told he could DT straight back from the trip. Gets there only to find flight is full and he cant get on. Nice one Ralphy. Lesson learnt?

[claudiomarco]

The requirements are pretty high and therefore would expect an adequate economic payback.

[VONKLUFFEN]

Are there going to be drivers available considering everyone is hiring like crazy? . Future looks even more tight.... Good 4 all of us!!!

[wunhunglo]

No....... Bonker is an ex CX check captain working on the introduction of the 777ER with another ex CX and CASA captain.

[dirty deeds]

VB Pay Scale:

Skipper $169500
Overtime from 72 hours in a 28 day roster. (No real overtime being seen, time balancing in place, i.e roster displacement with no protection).
$1000 dollars callout for working on a day off, before tax, no day in lieu.
Approximately $10000 tax free allowances per year.

Word is for 777 operation, pay scales for Captain not that much more circa sub $180000 (package) + own type rating costs.

Conditions yet to be announced, External commands are for the first four aircraft only, remainder from current VB crew (plenty of L/H experienced wide body Captains at VB i.e ex-CX/EK/VA/etc).

If you are told, "This is a start up package and we will look after you at the next contract/eba", run for the hills, as this has been said before and reneged upon.

Buyer beware!

[Harbour Dweller]

dirty deeds,

Conditions yet to be announced

So where is your information coming from?

[dirty deeds]

Harbour Dweller,

I understand that these sort of posts do require some form of credibility, without giving away too much, lets say I have a close friend in certain places. People I know with interviews planned at VAUS have been told that the pay will not be mind blowing and the training will have to be self funded! Good if you already have a 777 endorsement! Knowing many VB pilots and hence having an insight into the company culture at a V company, pilots are not very well treated, in more ways than one (pay and conditions). They always choose the cheapest possible solution to any problem, whether it be a rostering system that does not work (cheap computer rostering programmes), to crew meals and uniforms. Everything has to be cost neutral.

Time will tell whether I am right or I am wrong. But at the end of the day, J* widebody pay scales have set a standard in AUS that is now the bench mark for competitors and once again having an insight into V management they will do anything they can to keep their cost base to a minimum. I hope I am wrong. But I believe this 777 operation requires a package of at least $250000 minimum.

Don't forget you will also be based in SYD and if they offer contracts and you want to commute, say from BNE, I bet they will not provide staff travel on VB to facilitate your abilities to commute, and the staff travel system at VB is one of the worst and cheapest systems going around, it is not seniority based (its first in first served, ie a baggage handler has booked a flight before a Capt, the baggage handler travels first).

Hope this helps.

[Harbour Dweller]

dirty deeds,

Thanks for your reply.

It is not a very bright picture that you are painting. I can see why Virgin Blue is having trouble crewing domestic flights.

V Australia has set the experience benchmark pretty high. They are obviously wanting to attract quality B777 pilots with good experience levels. That level can only be achieved with an attractive package, Money + lifestyle.

Time will tell but if Virgin managers think they will attract a stampede of guys for that package they had better think again.

That deafening silence will be the sound of no one knocking on their door.

:=

HD

[dirty deeds]

No worries HD,
I do not want to intentionally paint such a bad picture, just relaying the facts and its about time we all started to cover each others backs and provide good information so people can make an educated and informed decision about where their working future lies. Especially in this current, fast approaching world pilot shortage.
Regards
DD

PS. Get hold of the DEC issue of the Australian Aviation Magazine, pages 89-92 has some great articles about Australia's pilot shortages.

[Harbour Dweller]

dirty deeds,

just relaying the facts and its about time we all started to cover each others backs and provide good information

Well said. There needs to be more of it.

Cheers
HD

[VONKLUFFEN]

PS. Get hold of the DEC issue of the Australian Aviation Magazine, pages 89-92 has some great articles about Australia's pilot shortages.
Once you read it, could you share the info with us? Not all have access to the magazine, I guess.
Thanks

[sanook]

Who are the ex CX,SAA guys running the set up?

[dirty deeds]

The articles in the Aus Aviation basically covered the pilot shortage problems in Aus and the fact that the number of ATPL licences have dropped and are forecast to get worse. Here is a quote from one of the articles:

" How do you attract pilots into the industry? You pay them a remuneration that reflects their hard won skills and responsibilities and you give them terms and conditions that reflect the way you would like to be treated, like a human being. It all comes down to that famous movie line:" Show me the money".

It also stated the fact that there is such a shortage of grade 1 & 2 instructors so even if people wanted to learn how to fly they won't be able to anyway.

Both pilots are ex SAA that are heading up the flight ops division. Could not tell you their names.

[asianeagle]

Who are the ex CX,SAA guys running the set up
I believe it is Mike Malherbe and Brett Gebers, both former very senior guys at SAA.

[777Contrail]

Those are the names I've got as well.