Successful Ditching

[armchairpilot94116]

http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_300161434.html

[Kit d'Rection KG]

As far as I recall, between 80 and 90% of occupants of aircraft which ditch, survive the ditching (88% springs to mind). However, a good proportion of them (I definitely have forgotten that statistic) go on to die of hypothermia, drowning, etc.

I forget the source, but this is all aircraft, worldwide. I take it as being good reason to concentrate on decent safety kit, and knowing what to do. (Also, I don't fly single-engined over water).

If someone has the survey to hand (probably FAA, I think), I'd appreciate a link.

[Islander2]

You'll find quite a lot of stats here:

http://www.equipped.com/ditching.htm

[IO540]

I don't see how they analyse the cause of death in the significant % of instances where the plane simply went missing with everybody aboard, presumed lost over water.

Personally I bank on ditching successfully, so I carry a raft, radio and gps, etc. Similarly, I don't fly (much) at night.

[Fuji Abound]

To gleen more significant information those pilots and PAX who died would need to be categorised between:

1. The bodies never found,

2. The bodies found in the aircraft,

3. The bodies found outside the aircraft.

A significant number of 1 may have vacated the aircraft as did all of 3.

Most of the time life jackets are useless in our climate. You need a life raft and some say better still a dry suite.

[DaveW]

Most of the time life jackets are useless in our climate. You need a life raft and some say better still a dry suite.

I'd concur that a life jacket is not enough, but would take issue with any suggestion that they are "useless". They could easily be the difference between survival and otherwise, despite you having other safety equipment.

Here's a personal view I wrote (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=455661&highlight=dinghy#455661) back in the summer regarding prioritisation of SE, which I hope explains my comment above - naturally if you can, you should go for as much of it as is feasible.

[Fuji Abound]

DaveW

Yes, you are correct, useless was too strong.

The word was ill chosen in an effort to emphasise how little time you have in the water in our climate before hypothermia becomes a significant factor.

As always if rescue comes soon enough a life jacket might make all the difference.

[DaveW]

I'd even put it differently; regardless of how long rescue may take to arrive, the LJ may make the difference between you being able to make use of the rest of your SE, and not - and hence survival or not. My link expands on that thought.

Your point about hypothermia is spot on, of course, and for those reading this who haven't seen it before, this chart from the CAA Safety Sense Leaflet on Ditching (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_GAD_WEBSSL21.PDF) is worth studying:

http://www.atsx91.dsl.pipex.com/Misc/Ditching_Survival_Times.jpg

Note that in UK winter temperatures cold shock can kill you in under an hour - before the onset of hypothermia - if you are not protected in some way (such as immersion suit/out of the water etc).

[Kit d'Rection KG]

IO540,

The study which I remember only analysed events where there was sufficient evidence. Aircraft 'missing' over water did not feature in the stats.

Perhaps the point I was trying to make is that, to my mind, the chances are good that you will have time to evacuate the aircraft, and perhaps deploy an internally-carried raft. So, not carrying a raft on the grounds that 'you'll never be able to get it out' would be a false analysis.

I wonder if those flying with BRS approach this issue significantly differently?

Regarding whether lifejackets are 'useless' or not, I recommend anyone try being winched from the water under a big helo without a lifejacket on, to demonstrate that, even for those few seconds, they are utterly invaluable. Yes, you can bob around in smooth water for a while if you're a strong swimmer, but under strong downdraught with spray in your eyes and a winchman trying to get the harness on - you'd need to be superman.

[IO540]

Dave W - good article IMHO. And I do wear a jacket when crossing the channel.

The thing which I don't go for is a survival suit. Apart from a certain quantity of seriously dedicated anoraks who inhabit the pilot forums - and most of whom fly either alone or with similar anoraks - virtually nobody is going to wear a drysuit on what is supposed to be a pleasant trip abroad.

Is there any data on average rescue time? The point is that you can bank on being dead within a couple of hours in the water. The gliding time doesn't cut much into that - say 20mins from FL150, and far less for the vast majority of pilots who fly VFR OCAS.

No matter how one looks at this, a raft is the only meaningful escape route.

[airborne_artist]

Fourteen degrees Celsius water temp. was the magic figure in my days in the RN. Below that, and dry suits were mandatory for flights over water, and that is borne out by the graph above.

I'd also argue that anyone who is regularly flying over water in a single-engined aircraft should have some realistic training in ditching and escape from the aircraft. My 16 y/o daughter recently did the Dunker (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.3249) - fun it isn't!

[Fuji Abound]

On the other hand if you took all this seriously you would never fly over water for at least six months of the year in a SEP without dry / immersion suites, a raft an EPIRB and be dunker current at the very least.

As a friend of mine pointed out, you have a miniscule chance of the engine quiting in a SEP over the water (based on the statistical evidence) and if you exclude running out of fuel and poor maitenance the chance is even smaller - than miniscule.

For all I know the risk of a heart attack is far greater, but how many of us carry statins to take immediately afterwards.

Not that I should be running this argument - I feel far happier in a twin these days :).

[RatherBeFlying]

No ditchings so far, but have had one nasty swim in Spring whitewater after canoe filled up with water without benefit of thermal protection.

It's quite rare that I do find myself dumped in the water, but the wetsuit and or drytop goes on when the water is cold, even though it's no fun at all getting the drytop on.

In waves, you will be surprised how much of the time you will be underwater even wearing a lifejacket:uhoh:

Those who think a lifejacket and/or thermal protection are not needed are encouraged to take a dip in a local pond this time of year -- just make very sure that there's sufficient qualified personnel available to pull you out and dump you into a hot bath in case you get into difficulties:E

[radicalrabit]

November in the English Chanel is no place to be without a dry suit full stop, no argument, without it you may well die The water off the North East coast is even worse. Dramatic? yes but true. I have pulled divers out of the water in dry suits that leaked off Whitley bay 20 mins after surfacing and they were hypothermic (hyper or hypo). I also rescued a Diver who thought it cool to try diving with no hood in a thin wet suit in Loch Linnhe he couldnt stay under water for more then 12 seconds. Another woman we pulled out of the Irish Sea after falling off a boat and being tossed about because the guys on the boat she fell off couldn't control their boat enough to get any where near her. The swell effect will scare you to death if the cold doesnt, add to that trying to locate your wife kids or girlfriend in those conditions?
There is a damned good reason why military pilots go over water in a dry suit and if you can inflate that and put your sarbe on you have a pretty good life raft of your own while you are trying to sort out the rest . Being cold drastically numbs your thinking and your ability to act. Getting into a life raft becomes an major ordeal even more so coming after the trauma of hitting the water in what ever you were previously in. You go from nice and warm to near freezing in 4-8 degrees with the nagging feeling you are not going to survive and have to think your way through that. You will do it better if you are warm and dry. Do you put comfort first? Ask the guys who fly out to the rigs every day or every 28 days going to work and back and you have your answwer!:ugh:

[gasax]

To be fair personnel working offshore do not haver a choice in their clothing when flying. It is mandated by the companies. argue with the requirement - no job!

However it is all based upon a goodly amount of thinking and is part of a system which is supposed to give 'a good prospsect' of recovery to a place of safety.

The general criteria is that personnel must be able to survive for up to 2 hours in the sea. Hence the use of dry suites with thermal insulation garment underneath. If the air temp is warm then yes you sweat like a pig, but if you end up in the water the helicopter has an EPIRB, the pilots have EPIRBS and transceivers and increasing you will have a PLB (baby EPRIB). That with the amount of shipping and Coastguard aircraft should mean that an enroute or destination ditching should not result in floating bodies.

The use of rebreather is also near universal but that is largely driven by the poor access/egress that most large chopper 'offer'

[Fuji Abound]

Hmmm - whilst all these comments are true - I don’t disagree at all - the best comments are form those who have done it - not the ditching I hasten to add, but been swimming in the winter.

Hats of to RatherbeFlying.

I have dinghy sailed for years and am a BSAC diver. When I first started sailing wet suites were relatively new and we couldn’t afford them any way.

I recall sailing 470 at Calshot in January with the sea water in the bottom of the dinghy just turning slushy. We had lots of layers on, and waterproofs, and we were fit and use to it. We "survived" capsizes and dragged ourselves onto the centreboard and got going again. I recall standing in the shower after one race and the water turning blood red - literally. A cut had warmed up unbeknown to me and started bleeding profusely. Time in the water during a capsize was short, we were fit and expecting it occasionally. The rescue boats were very close at hand. And the point is - well if you are focused, fit and deal with the situation as long as you can get yourself into a liferaft you stand a chance without a dry suite - but a dry suite / immersion suite makes a huge difference.

Some years later I recall two other people sailing a fireball - it was wet suites by then. A capsize followed by getting the mast stuck in the mud lead to around half an hour in the water. They were both girls with low body mass. One was nearly hypothermic after being dragged out the water by the rescue crew. Her account of how rapidly she became unable to do anything was sobering - as was the very pleasant haze into which she fell - as she said at least it was a nice way to go.

A few years on and nearly everyone who sails dinghies in the winter wear dry suites. They are actually pretty comfortable and even breathable. Of course their effectiveness ultimately depends on the layers of thermal insulation under neath (and remembering not to forget to close the zip if you have been wearing one in the cockpit). With good thermal under layers they are brilliant, floating in the water in January is a non event - albeit I have never done so for a great length of time so how long they ultimately give you I don’t know. In the water there will still be a significant heat loss through the head and hands, and feet if you do not have the fitted booties. Diving in a dry suite has similar advantages and “pressurised” they are more than adequate to keep you warm for the entirety of a diver.

I guess a large size would fit most people if needs be (thinking of carrying different pax) but most people just think it is bizarre to get into one of these before going flying. Moreover sitting in a warm cockpit with proper thermal wear underneath is not going to be one of the most comfortable experiences. I tried it once so I know. It is quite doable however and if you want to weight one more odd in your favour its not as bad as you might imagine.

In short it all boils down to risk assessment. I suspect if you want to have any chance of surviving for more than an hour in the water in the winter you need to be wearing a dry suite, as a second best you might get away with a raft if you are fit, know how to get into it and do so quickly - anything else .. .. ..

[tmmorris]

FWIW:

hypo- = too little
hyper- = too much

e.g. hypobaric chamber: low pressures; hyperbaric chamber: high pressures.

So, hypothermia is low temperature; hyperthermia is high.

Tim

[gasax]

The survival suites (and underlying thermal insulation garments) come in at least 6 sizes to try and address the fitting problems. They also come with neoprene gloves and pull on hoods. It is only with good underlying clothing, the TIG and the suite and its bits and pieces that the 2 hours requirement can be met.

None of which makes it a particularly attractive choice for an afternoon in the belle France!

[BackPacker]

I've got the same dilemma as a lot of posters here. Yes, I do wear a lifejacket and I have had a day of dunker training through a diving club. I've read the AIC on ditching, seen the stats and know that I still run a big risk of dying from hypothermia when I ditch in the Channel (which is my longest overwater crossing so far). But yet I do draw the line at the liferaft and immersion suit. Cost of purchase, cost of upkeep and the general awkwardness and unattractiveness are all factors in that decision. Have to admit I'm inclined to buy one of those Fastfind Plus PLBs someday, even though all my club aircraft do have an ELT.

Doesn't mean I'm curious though, and I've read the discussion with interest. I've seen (and actually worn) the survival suits that are worn by offshore workers when they are being ferried to/from the rigs, and they're thick rubber with attached, very stiff boots. I've also seen drysuits as worn by divers. But so far I have not seen/found a supplier of lightweight immersion suits used for general aviation. And I'm curious as to the stuff that the helo pilots use that ferry to the rigs. I mean, heaving to sweat it out for two hours every six weeks is allright, but what do you wear if you've got to fly in those conditions all day?

[gasax]

I suspect you're confusing transit and evacuation suites.

Today's helicopter transit suites are fairly light 'dry suits', they have waterproof cuffs and neck seals with soft 'feet' which you wear normal footwear over the top of.

typically the kit looks like this http://www.offshore-technology.com/contractors/safety/shark/

Helicopter pilots wear a cosmetically altered version (looks a bit like a uniform and is dark blue!)

Evacuation suites have the thick heavy boots and are generally serious items to get on and off.

[youngskywalker]

Offshore survival suits that the north sea heli pilots wear can be made to order for anybody, not cheap though, but then what price your life?

I can't remember the exact name of the Aberdeen supplier, they used to trade under the name 'multifabs survival' but I think they are now called heli-one.

[BossEyed]

hypo- = too little
hyper- = too much

That's handy. Got anything similar for the difference between "suit" and "suite"? :}

BackPacker, if you're concerned about cost of purchase and upkeep, then don't buy - rent. There are a few places mentioned in the thread at Dave W's link above.

As for unattractiveness, being blue, bloated, wrinkly and covered in crabs is probably more unattractive than an orange rubber outfit!

[Fuji Abound]

If you are interested I would have a look at some of the good dinghy supply shops - such as

http://www.piplers.co.uk/category.php?catid=142&catpath=9

just chosen at radomn, not to advertise them in particular.

I can vouch for dry suits such as these being a whole different ball game. they are designed to be flexible and comfortable to wear - moving around in a high perfoamnce dinghy is nothing like you would imagine if you havent sailed before or have sailed yachts.

Whether they ultimately provide the same insulation as an immersion suit I dont know but I would imagine they are very close as ultimately the suit works because of its ability to keep you totally dry not to insulate you - the insulation comes from the furry bear suit underneath!

However you look at it four dry suits are not going ot be cheap - if you are going to provide for a full load of pax.

Personally I always carry a raft. Again they are not cheap, but these days they are really small and compact - you can probably avoid servicing them every year and even then the cost is only around £60. I have just had mine back from SEMS.

I think a raft is a good half way house - it might not be the perfect solution, but its better than a jackets alone - and I suspect you can always sell them on or rent them to others if you wish. there are also a few firms around that will rent you rafts for one off trips.