LEA Mustang Operation

[Riker]

A few questions regarding London Executive Aviation. I saw an advert in Flight recently (ramping up on Citation Bravo and Mustang pilots as the aircraft arrive) and my questions are:

1. How soon before the first Mustang arrives? Where will it be based?


2. How many Mustangs are expected in 2008?


3. How are newhires alloted bases? Do most newhires start at certain bases?


4. Lastly, general impressions of working at LEA? Any positives/negatives?



I hear that Mustang is great fun to fly and it could fill a charter niche on the Continent. Just considering my options. Any insight would be appreciated.

Cheers

[papazulu]

Just heard the gossip and X-checked with Radio Hangar...:E

1) Dec 2007, London City (?)
2) Seven-ish
3) Dunno
4) Dunno, working s'where else but reputated amongst 3 best corporate operators in UK

PZ :ok:

[Toxic Thrust]

From a handler point of view the pilots seem a contented and well motivated bunch which has always pointed to a well run organisation

They do a lot of operations from Luton, Stansted, Farnborough as well as London City.

They are certainly early in on the delivery programme on the Citation Mustang and this will fill an interesting void in the European market for 'entry level' jets operating for charter which I am sure they will make the most of.

[TurboJ]

With MTOW of 8600 lbs I can't see these VLJs being of much use on public transport operations. I flew a 'light jet' with a MTOW of 12,500lbs and we had to stop to refuel coming back to the UK from Southern France with a 100 knot headwind, 4 male adults and bags.

I think the range and payload of these things is going to be very limiting and the customer will want something more robust and beefy.

They are basically designed to fly executives around before and after a game of golf. The systems are very basic and redundancy is virtually nil.

TJ

[Callsign Viper]

1, All the aircraft apart from CL300 operate in and out of LCY but none are officially based there. I imagine the first will be at STN / FAB and LTN

2, Beleive there are 7 Mustangs owned by LEA, 1st coming early next year, and three others to be managed by the company ! certainly a big expansion with 10 new a/c.

3, All crews based at STN on paper, this is apparently likely to change for Legacy and Challenger crews. Mostly crews will be looked at with experience for the Mustangs, I hear all the the first courses will be from within for quick(er) commands and experience on Citations. Then various newby's (experienced/instructors etc) will fill the gaps. I guess at 1.5/2 crews per aircraft.

4, Good company to work for. Company management have there heads screwed on and seem to operate a fairly well oiled machine. Like all companies people have gripes and certain things / departments need to improve. Pilots are looked after from within and outsiders are welcomed with experience or grow through the ranks with no experience. I would def class within the top three charter companies in the UK with TAG & Gama.

With a rather large expansion over the next two years with the Mustangs and some large aircraft the company is likely to grow fairly quickly and this will hopefully improve other T&C's for the crews. Biggest lack being loss of licence and healthcare etc missing. Pension aswell but most companies offer a pretty poor one these days ?! LEA has been growing at a steady rate over the last ten years and I beleive they will continue to do so.

As for the market niche ... who knows ? I think there is plenty of room for these 'entry' level aircraft to fit into the market, and quite clearly so do all the manufacturers (Cessna, Eclipse, Embraer to name a few). I hear through the grapevine that LEA have sold one of the CII's and the others should be phased out over the next yr/two. Many charters in CJ's / Bravo's etc have 1/2 pax on relatively short sectors. It won't be good for 4 pax to Milan or Nice although I don't know the specs & range. However in time these might be more like NJ aircraft and left down route ?

Life's a Beach :}

[Arkwright]

Riker, Turbo J (and others!!)
1. First Mustang now due January 2008. To be based at Farnborough.
The rest will be based at Biggin, Stansted and Luton.
2. Total of ten Mustangs due, but Cessna keep putting back the delivery dates...... :ugh: I'm not sure, but I would expect probably five by the end of 2008.
3. All LEA crew are currently officially based at Stansted, but this is under review.
4. Good, stable company, knowledgeable management, good financial background. Decent profit margins. (Quite a few GA operators actually run at a loss.....) Good senior management team, headed up by an excellent Chief Pilot.
The Citation Mustang is not actually termed a VLJ, but an 'entry level jet' by Cessna.....
Turbo J:
'systems very basic'......Hello? Have you seen the Garmin 1000 avionics system? Better equipped than most airliners!!! :D

[buzzc152]

Out of interest, any idea what the salaries are like at LEA ? Do they pay the ratings or is it sulf funded ?

[flybypilot]

If some of the Mustangs are going to be managed will LEA be operating them single crew on the private flights? Might actually make the aircraft semi useful with the amount of fuel you can carry!! Get the feeling that the loadsheets will be a fun and challenging task on an AOC flight!

[TurboJ]

Arwright

Cessna would call it an entry level jet but what else would you call a jet that weights 8600lbs other than very light?

- Yes - systems very basic - what redundancy does it have? From my experience, probably very little.

OK, so its got an all singing, all dancing Garmin 1000, but what happens when the power source supplying the screens goes off? Then what? 20 minutes of battery power to get you on the deck from FL410 in bad weather using standby instruments? Mmm.......

These machines are built for the business person who flys from Georgia to Florida in the morning to play golf and then back again for dinner. In my experience, for what its worth, they are not designed to be flying 70hrs+ a month in commercial service, but I wish LEA all the best with them........

[Flintstone]

No different to Citations I suppose, designed for a maximum of 100 hours a year yet pressed into service for far more than that.

The irony is that as 'small' aircraft they'll more likely be flown by relatively inexperienced pilots yet it's experience that will be needed to keep up in single pilot ops, more so when/if the screens go blank.

Have fun boys and girls ;)

[Crosswind Limits]

I would guess LEA will operate the Mustang two crew, preferably both type rated.

BUT the Mustang weighs less than the JAR 25 minima (5700kgs) so no unfreezing of one's frozen ATPL on this baby! I presume it will be treated just like the C525 series. Whereby, if the company AOC requires two type rated crew, multi crew time can be logged but an ATPL LST would still have to be done on a JAR 25 airplane! How silly is that!! :ugh:

Sometimes I wish we could go back to the UK/CAA licences which were more akin to the FAA system.:p

[flybypilot]

Does anyone know the BEM and Max fuel for the aircraft? Sounding more and more like this aircraft is going to have some serious charter issues! Seems def produced for the private owner pilot

[ratyrat]

I am sure LEA have done there homework regarding the operation of the A/C,and yes it will be two crew.

raty:p

[flybypilot]

According to cessna the full fuel payload with 2 pilots is 400lbs! Assuming standard weights that is not even 2 men with hand baggage let alone a set of golf clubs! I guess all will come clear!

[Riker]

Any ideas on potential starting salaries for PIC and SIC positions on the Mustang? Estimates welcome.

[flybypilot]

My guess would be £15-20k for SIC and prob £30-35k for a PIC but they are purely guestimates!

[om15]

Ref post 14.

Take off weight 8,645 lb.
Total usable fuel 2,568 lb
( TCDS A0014W1 Rev 2.)

Typical basic weight inc undrainable fuel 5304 lbs ( in service a/c)

plus two pilots, your figure is about right.
Best regards,
om15

[verticalmach]

Flinstone, you posted yesterday that this aircraft will probably be crewed by inexperienced pilots on an aircraft that requires the opposite.

You are 100% corect buddy.

I hope the crews going on this aeroplane are doing it with one eye on their lcences and the other eye on there professional common sense.

I hope when the crews get on line that they start to store, on a relatives or freinds computer, all e-mails pertaining to ALL requests and directives. Be those from ops or pax. The pressure to perform will be huge. All this on an aircraft that has not been tested on our market. At least e-mails have the senders name attached and generally the person who sent them had to access things with a password. I think this kind of thing is a good insurance policy against the temptation of being asked/told to do some thing of a questionable nature.

All you GA dogs out there know what I'm talking about.

Happy N safe flying:rolleyes:

[flybypilot]

Dont know much about LEA so wouldnt be fair to comment there! My guestimates were based on reduced Citation CJ current salaries where a qualified F/O is on about £25-28k and a Captain is getting £45-55k as a fixed salary. Am I right in thinking LEA work on a lowish basic salary but then flight pay to boost the salary?

[Riker]

Certainly looks like a nice, automated flightdeck. Should make your job a lot easier:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1288309&size=L&width=1024&height=695&sok=%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=3

[spoolup]

first 510 getting picked up tomorrow for the ferry flight.
will own 7 w/3 more managed
pay for CA 35000 + 75day

[Jetscream 32]

the whole vlj thing is very interesting...with a complete contrast between AOC / Owner flying.

One has biz jet experience, management, sim training, opc, lpc, airways, atc, cfmu, mcc, crm, currency, mentors and knowledge base for glass cockpits and expereince thereof, and will typically operate into licensed fully nav aidable nice big airfields with set minima's and somebody else to tap you on the shoulder when they feel landing with the gear is more important than an instant deceleration with granite.....

The other has, by virtue of products available little or no jet time, little experience of such complex glass cockpit and sytems management, little experience in congested airways, little knowledge of knock on effect for level busts, little awareness on complexity in planning for eventualities, little knowledge base to draw upon at local flying club, little understanding of interaction with regional airfield traffic in jets with C152 also in circuit, blowing over said C152's whilst leaving stand - taxiing, little knowledge of effective cockpit management, little knowledge of coping with a pocket rocket from the front, whilst turning round to tell the kids and wife to be quiet whilst trying to perform a cloud break procedure at an unlicensed airfield with only an A/G operator for company on the radio??

Cant wait for them to arrive, and cant wait to help spearhead safety for everyone, this s going to be both fun and scary for al concerned.

The birth of VLJ's is a huge calling for investment in local regional airfields, get them open, licensed, available - create jobs, interest and boost the economy...... now where did i put my rose tinted specs...!! :8

[G-SPOTs Lost]

reading this:

https://support.cessna.com/docs/custsupt/contacts/docs/servicesoverview/content/Must/mustsd.pdf

It should be good enough for 2.5 hours + decent reserve, dont underestimate how thrifty these things are, 250-300lbs p/hour would be very achievable.

LEA apparently looked at the average pax load and nominally its approaching two pax anyway although looking at the specs if LEA have kept them lean on weight they will no doubt get three pax to most of Europe without difficulty.

They only make sense based in the south of the country and from there will probably make the balearics, definetely Nice, Geneva and all the other places the budget charterer goes to in the kingair in 20 mins less. I admit 100kt h/winds will spoil the party

WRT redundancy its no more or less than the Kingair they replace. WRT standby battery endurance they ship a new lead acid now which is a new design and gone are the 30 mins after immense load shedding of the Bravo, I get 3hours on mine complete with FMS navigation in EMER.

Besides looking at the theatre that these a/c are going to fly in, even if it was 30 mins then I'm sure this would work as well.

Just to finish, Cessna are probably the most prolific builder of bizjets both historically and even now interms of an order book. Love them or hate them theres one on every ramp so all the talk of bad CG issues is probably bull****, they do know what they are and have been doing all these years.

I dont work for LEA but they have been around long time and probably would not order 8 of the things unless they had done their sums, besides you would probably pay $250,000 premium for an imminent C510 position so if they bring them over and stick for sale signs on them all they would probably make 1.5 - 2.0 million US$ anyway.

To summarise LEA can do two people to Nice on a one way and the aircraft will be on its way back before the Kingair would have got there. All this for the same price to the customer in Jet Style! If you need to go to Tangiers rent the 550!

Also wrt to the crews if they are upgrading their current Kingair captains of those 30yr old B200's with crap autopilots, then they will find the Garmin C510 a piece of piss.

[Flintstone]

Hmmmm, that link's not working for me.

250-300lbs an hour? Really? 125lbs per engine, per hour?

[long final]

Link worked fine for me, looking at thier figures it would be 250-300lbs per engine per hour. Quoting 1150nm max @ 41000 100nm alternate with a 2600lb max fuel capacity. KTAS 340 at 35000. Didnt find any definitive fuel figures though in the document.

[Flintstone]

Ok, it works now.

Spoke to someone today who was chatting to the people at Swanwick. It seems they might not be looking forward to the predicted swarms of VLJs.

[angelorange]

ATC cope well with King Airs and P180s and older Slowtations so I don't think VLJs will be a major issue. 600lbs/hr is about King Air fuel rate as well for 180KIAS.

[redsnail]

Yes, I spoke to one of the senior guys at West Drayton (now shifted) isn't looking forward to the VLJs.

ATC can cope with a lot but it's the London TMA that's pretty busy.

A VLJ in itself isn't a problem. However, Lon ATC is barely coping now with the amount of "pop ups". So too many more will over load them and lead to increased slot delays.

A pop up comes from places like Biggin, Farnborough etc.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

yes sorry figures were indeed per engine per hour,

Interesting about the ATC viewpoint, my £0.02's worth is that there wont be that much impact. The owners were probably going to buy some form of aircraft anyway, either that or they are flying around IFR in something smaller/slower so in terms of IFR "Numbers" they will be neutral or the increase would have been there regardless of whether Cessna/Eclipse built these things anyway.

Cant see somebody jumping from SR22 to one of these things just because they can afford it

I remember many moons ago witnessing a conversation between 4 flightsafety instructors about who was going to go on the "Yard Dart" program and nobody was interested. Whats interesting is that the FAA have subdivided the type rating into four different levels depending on how the TR course was completed and checked and JAA have not.

So rich guy sells the Seneca in Miami and can only bomb off with a type rated experienced guy in the RHS, Rich guy in Farnborough sells Seneca and causes chaos in the LTMA.:rolleyes:

The insurers will have to play a huge part in this to ensure safety prevails, these things are as cheap as a four year old kingair. JAA has no provision for the mentoring program that the FAA have put in place.

Interesting times ahead for the traditional Beech 90/200 operators.

[chevvron]

Has the first one been delivered yet?

[jamesarmstrong]

think its due to be at EGLF on Thursday.

[Gulf4uk]

hi

Arrived At Farnborough 1014 this morning 29TH then It went out for a while
. It arrived back at FAB 1629 .

Tony

[robbreid]

http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1091530/ G-LEAI Mustang C510-0052

[robbreid]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/28/221050/bikkair-to-launch-europes-first-air-taxi-operation.html Dutch startup Bikkair

http://www.scramble.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38186 photos of arrival of Bikkair's first Mustang PH-TXI C510-0050

http://www.bikkair.nl/airtaxi.php?id=23 Bikkair Website

[Chippie Chappie]

Couldn't accuse it of being the prettiest aircraft gracing the skys....

But good luck to them :ok:

Chips

[slatch]

Well, we have seen a few C510's for a while now. From an ATC pont of view they are just in the way. They want to fly between FL350 and FL410 at under .6 mach. Some have been as slow as .52. We just decend them out of the way to below FL310 where the PC12's run them over. Then they scream about not having enough fuel to make thier destination. If you want to fly at prop speeds plan your flight at prop altitudes. If your lucky enough to get higher that is a bonus. At first we climbed them up to altitude and played pool with the aircraft trying to run them over. that got old quick and now we just dont climb them if there is any traffic behind them.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Aww comeon Slatch......

500's and crap 550's have been causing these problems for years, they were the "Next New Thing" 30 years ago, we've had long enough to get used to them.....

[jamesarmstrong]

interesting 'launch' of the mustang at EGLF last night where one of the head chaps at LEA announced that the mustang will be able to fly commercially from london, with 2 pax, non stop to the tip of north africa or Sophia.......I am no expert but this seems a tad optimistic...? please feel free to correct me.

[Daifly]

jamesarmstrong

please feel free to correct me.

Sure. It's "Sofia", not "Sophia". ;)

I'm sorry, it was a cheap shot, but I couldn't ignore it!

Was a good bash though!

[VaudBrit]

I suspect that the biggest constraint on range won't be the a/c itself but the bladder capacity of the passengers...

[Nearly There]

The mustang has a bucket under a seat I thought...opposite the door

[Frallifraxer]

Will they be flown by a multi crew ?

[om15]

The Mustang has an emergency lav under the side facing seat in front of the cabin, it is separated from the cockpit by a curtain, but not from the rest of the cabin, so you would all have to be close friends if you wanted to use it. The area above the seat is also a designated baggage area ( 30 lbs I think) with a restraint net, so it may well not be available anyway.
Very nice interior and cockpit layout, it appears to be more spacious than a 525, more thought gone in to systems and build standard than other Citation models.
BR
om15

[lipgo]

At this point I presume line training has been conducted in some form- how do the performance figures for the Mustang stack up?
What sort of runway figures for MAUW Take Off at ISA? Runway required for Landing at Max landing weight?
What's the range with four pax + 2 pilots for planning? Whats LRC speed between FL 35-FL41? Are they capable climbing straight to FL370 at MAUW?


Thanks in advance..

[jamesarmstrong]

Now, now Daifly - perfection doesnt come as easily to others as it obviously does to you.

Did think it was odd that LEA would be pushing this info on what was mainly brokers and operators, i.e. those who will be using the mustang through LEA on a commercial basis when there is simply no way the aircraft will make africa, sofia OR Sophia!! non stop.

[Callsign Viper]

I think you'll find when 'Africa' has been mentioned they are talking about the likes of Algiers. Not Marrakech etc. It is certainly marketing talk but ...

Not unreasonable with the right load on the right day, only a 150nm odd miles south of Ibiza.

Not the sort of flying this aircraft is going to be expected to do.

Frallifraxer : Yes ! always going to be two crew for commercial operation.

Performance wise I am led to believe the aircraft is proving to be far better than the booked figures and Cessna are likely to be re-issuing performance data in the future.

[SENFLYER]

Anyone know what package LEA offer their ops staff, staff turnover and atmosphere etc?:ok:

[steven938]

Mustang FTD all ready to go at FSI Farnborough. I know it's a nice piece of kit 'cos I've been running acceptance checks on it. Small cockpit but easy to get in to because of very short centre console.

FFS arrives in April for training in mid-May. Bet it's mostly people thinking of going on the waiting list to buy one.

You can have a trip in mine if I can have a trip in yours. LOL.

[captruchir]

see the FLYER news item

FLYER GA News :: Fancy flying a Mustang? (http://www.flyer.co.uk/news/newsfeed.php?artnum=831)

www.flyMustang.com (http://www.FlyMustang.com)

[suchiman]

Has anyone currently flying the Mustang ( or similar) flown the King Air 300.

I would consider the King Air to be a superior A/C overall.

In an ideal world were you buy a Mustang for a very specific purpose, say 900 mile, FL 350-370 2 pax, the Mustang would be superior no doubt. But as soon as you are in the way because you are too slow and are given FL 290-310 and or you take 4 pax the advantages are out the window.

On the King air you would be planning at FL 240 to FL 270 anyways. Plus much more confortable cabin etc. At these FL the King Air is almost as fast and has tons more range and flexibility.

FOR $ 3.000.000 you can buy a 1 year old Mustang or an older, but very nice, King Air. The King air also seems like a much better built "solid" A/C.

I see the Mustang as a Mazda Miata, very nice for a 40 mile summer drive in a mountain road but would probably prefer a 15 year old, well taken care of, Mercedes E class. More confortable, more pax, etc.

Anyone out there?