KLM crew report pilots drunk

[Striker]

From the Netherlands' most reliable newspaper De Telegraaf:
Een Boeing 737 van de KLM is op Schiphol onderweg naar de startbaan door de luchthavenpolitie aan de kant gezet. Het vermoeden bestond dat de vliegers te veel hadden gedronken. De melding zou via 112 zijn gedaan door een lid van het cabinepersoneel. Na een blaastest bleken de piloten echter 100% alcoholvrij.....Omdat uit de test niet bleek dat ze hadden gedronken kregen ze toestemming de reis te vervolgen. De beide piloten zouden daar wegens gebrek aan vertrouwen in de rest van de bemanning absoluut 'geen zin' meer in hebben gehad. Ze taxieden terug naar de gate, waar de complete bemanning is gewisseld. De purser van de betreffende vlucht zou ziek thuiszitten.

Quick and rough translation:
A KLM Boeing 737 has been stopped by airport police on its way to the take-off runway. A member of the cabin crew had called (Dutch emergency number) 112 to report alcohol abuse by the pilots. However, the pilots were found to be 100% alcohol-free. The pilots decided to return to the gate as they had no confidence in the cabin crew and didn't feel like continuing the journey. The entire crew was changed and the purser of the flight is sick at home.

[eagle21]

Great CRM!

[dimitrispa31]

I believe that this cabin crew should not be at any aircraft of KLM anymore,thats disgraceful.This guy because i am sure he is a guy should never work again as cabin crew

[Left Coaster]

"Hell hath no fury...":=

[eagle21]

dimitrispa31 because i am sure he is a guy


Again great CRM :ugh:

[dimitrispa31]

In order to have crm the most important part is respect among the crew,as i rescept the cabin crew i want them to respect me too.

[sleeper]

Quote: i am sure he is a guy. Unquote.

What makes you so sure he is a guy?
Enlighten us please?

[eagle21]

Do you by any chance have a problem with male cabin crew? I hope not for your own benefit.

It just sounds bad, maybe you should read again your post. I don't think many male cabin crew would feel like raising their concerns to someone that doesn't seem to like them. Maybe that is why they end up calling 112????

What a crazy world we live in nowadays!

:\:\:\:\

[lomapaseo]

Hmmm, reads just like a plane has crashed thread. Very little facts but predicatable speculation about the human traits of the crew.

[Saintsman]

Firstly, good on the pilots who were professional enough not to drink before flying.

Secondly, assuming no malice, flight safety must come first. Its got to be better reporting your suspicions. Its a minor inconvenience being delayed compared to being scraped off the end of the runway because a pilot was intoxicated and crashed the aircraft.

[MarkD]

What is the correct protocol for a CC member to follow in a situation such as this, assuming no malice intended and that simply calling 112 is not appropriate? I would have thought most airlines' crew manuals would have a "what-if" for a suspected intoxication event.

[seletarboy]

to put things correct, telegraaf is probably the most unreliable newspaper in that country. it stands therefore to reason that there might be something fishy to this story.

[sleeper]

Nothing fishy,

Story is already communicated internally.
The facts reported are basically correct.

ps, It was NOT a male purser.

[B767PL]

Firstly, good on the pilots who were professional enough not to drink before flying.

Next time I get on a plane, i'll be sure to stick my head in the flight-deck before take-off and congradulate the pilots on being sober.

"Hey guys, great job today, your BOTH not drunk!! Congradulations for staying sober! The passengers and I are all proud. Keep up the good work!! :ok:" hehehe, sorry, just read funny.



But I do find it strange how the cabin crew had gone to such lengths, with the pilots not even being drunk. Maybe it was just a bad joke the pilots pulled, that someone took too seriously? Or a member of the cabin crew was sure they would still have alchohol in them from the night before and wanted to bust them for w/e reason? All speculation.

[Not to scale]

So why wait until so long before taking action? Why leave the gate in the first place?
Better still, deal with the issue at crew report and avoid the additional publicity with the passengers.:ugh::ugh:

[hoggsnortrupert]

eagle21 Great CRM!
dimitrispa31 In order to have crm the most important part is respect among the crew,as i rescept the cabin crew i want them to respect me too.
What may I ask has this got to do with CRM!:ugh:
Please some one put a CRM explanation with this?:ugh:
What about the HUMAN FACTOR or should that be "HUMAN FACTORS".:)
Have to fly, where's my hip flask?:E
H/Snort.:ok:

[eagle21]

What may I ask has this got to do with CRM!
Please some one put a CRM explanation with this?
What about the HUMAN FACTOR or should that be "HUMAN FACTORS".
Have to fly, where's my hip flask?
H/Snort.


One of the main elements of good CRM is effective communication. I would say that if the aircraft is taxiing and the cabin crew decide to report the pilots on 112 there has been a major breakdown in communication.!!

Also discriminating on the basis of gender is not going to help to interact with others.

CRM is all about human factors , isn't it

[Rainboe]

Extraordinary the amount of excited comment and lectures made here in this thread, and barely a Professional aviator here at all! This sort of thing happens in most jobs....not that we really know what sort of thing we're talking about, but we could refrain from comments and suggestions aboout better ways of doing things until we know a little bit more about what on earth went on? Yes?*

[LLuke]

I couldn't find anything on our company board? Also heard different versions. Guess one could say her intention was good, assuming she was really convinced. I do have a problem with her actions. A purser is considered an executive staff member. If it is true what she did, I find it her rank unworthy. Lot of if's though.

[Rumble]

This almost happened to me in AMS when a dispatcher told her supervisor she was upset about the "strong smell of alcohol" from the cockpit. She did exactly the right thing and I had no problem with her actions. She was happily placated when we gave her one of the headset sani-wipes we were using to smell and she realized that they were the source of her qualms.
I'm surprised that this doesn't happen alot more. When both the FD crew clean the A/C headsets at the same time the smell of alcohol can get quite strong.
Got my own headset know & keep it clean at home.

[carbonfibre]

Would have helped if a second opinion had been gained from another member of crew, but as already said, this may have been done......we don't yet know the facts.

As with all serious related flight issues its better to speak up, there are just many ways of doing it!!

:ugh:

[el #]

This almost happened to me in AMS when a dispatcher told her supervisor she was upset about the "strong smell of alcohol" from the cockpit. She did exactly the right thing and I had no problem with her actions. She was happily placated when we gave her one of the headset sani-wipes we were using to smell and she realized that they were the source of her qualms.


Each problem should have an easy solution like this one:
http://www.cleaner-systems.co.uk/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=21

No more cover-ups for smells from the flask (JOKING!)

[unablereqnavperf]

Just to clear up the CRM issue!
CRM has nothing to do with political correctness,however it is often mistaken as such. CRM is about communication and therefore communication should be direct. i.e. The first person to be consulted should be the person under suspicion, if the matter is not resolved then the problem should be taken up a level internally(within the company concerned) before involving a sneaky call to the authorities. One of the most basic elements of CRM is trust and all crew should bear this in mind before involving outsiders.
A definition of CRM for those that don't understand!
The best use of all available resouces to achieve safe and efficient flight!
Good manners is a great starting point!
Trust amongst the crew is another!
Clear and open lines of communication are vital!
Back biting and under handed reporting have absolutley no place in CRM what so ever!
Ps. The purser is not an executve crew member, the purser is merely carrying out duties under the authority of the Captain. The Captain is the only executive crew member on board the aircraft, after him/her there is a chain of command starting at the first officer and working downwards from there!
Whislt I always value the input of the crew on board my aircraft I am concerned at the lack of respect show to Captains by cabin crew. CRM is often used as an excuse for this lack of respect. On the flip side I appreciate that there are still one or two Captains out there that need to work on keeping the respect given to them when they are promoted into the role.

[LLuke]

P.S. Inside KLM, the (rather independent) 'cabin-staff dept' considers the purser function executive inside their ranks.

[Juud]

LLuke, just had a look at your profile and as interests you state: Talking a lot without saying anything.
Maybe that explains why you wrote such a strangely suggestive post. ;)

You seem to imply that the (Sr)Purser function should not be executive within the ranks of the cabin crew. :confused:
Who within the ranks of the cabin crew do you think should be executive LLuke?
The most junior stewardess?
The stewardess with the shortest skirt?
The biggest chest?
The steward with the sharpest haircut?
Don’t be shy, enlighten us.

In the mean time, since you obviously either have issues with, or are unclear on matters regarding the chain of command on company aircraft, I recommend that you re-familiarize yourself with B.O.M. 1.4 and 1.5.
That should set you straight. :)

What with the Telegraaf being a scandal mongering tabloid known for whipping up frenzies to keep the bored amused, I would not stake my wings on the accuracy of this story BTW.

If it did happen as stated, it is extremely unfortunate, shows a total communication-breakdown between cockpit and cabin crew and could cause damage to the mutual trust that is so beneficial to a safe operation.

[haughtney1]

Good CRM between CC and flightcrew cannot be overstated.......

If this report paints an accurate picture of the events, I personally would be disappointed at the actions of the CC.
Good CRM to me would have involved the CC member having a brief chat discreetly, and asking the question...for no other reason than to air their concerns in a constructive fashion. If then, suitably convinced...the phonecall to the number would have been appropriate....but as is often the case, procedures such as these are often used as an excuse to persue a personal agenda. In this case I have no idea...but it has been my experience that certain CC members display personality traits and persue personal agendas that involve the fabrication of events/actions in order to show their performance in the best possible light...often at the expense of both CC and flightcrew.
Its the age old problem of flighcrew vs CC etc when the reality is that we are ALL crew working towards the same outcome.

[LLuke]

Written by Juud:
"Don’t be shy, enlighten us."

Unless you reply was meant for "unablereqnavperf" I am not sure I understand your post. Enlighten what?

OK, for the third time: Inside KLM the purser function is considered an executive function.

Please don't suggest I am saying anything else. That would be rather unpolite and ignorant.

P.S. A bit cheap to quote from my profile, while yours is totally empty.

[Juud]

LLuke, before we derail the thread .......... check your PMs please. :)

[CANOPUS]

Dear Judd,

I believe that LLuke was simply stating the facts and there was no need for you to take such exception to his post.

CRM works both ways. There is no reason to suspect that, within the cocoon of the Cabin hidden out there behind us on the other side of the bulletproof and electronically dead bolted cockpit door, there might not exist the Pursers' equivalent of an overbearing Capt. Van Zanten. Following his or her own guiding light without consulting others may have led to this unfortunate circumstance.

Please accept that this environment can and does exist in today's aviation scene.

Crews are being placed under more stress generally (i.e. more flying hours, reduced rest, pay etc.) which can lead to a breakdown in trust in our demanding occupation.

Hope the crew members involved will be able to patch things up quickly and get back to flying with a renewed insight as to their relationship to each other.

All the best to those great professionals on both sides of the divide at KLM.


CANOPUS:ok:

[df1]

Is it just me spotting the uncanny similarities between the "pilots protest over "noxious" air" thread and this one with instances of "strong smelling alcohol type fumes" eminating from the flight deck?

I suggest that the vast majority of noxious and/or alcoholic fumes originate from SLF.:8

[beamer]

We seem to hear from time to time about cabin crew reporting pilots as 'drunk' or 'under the influence'. I wonder how often Captains report cabin crew as unfit for duty and how often that is reported in the media ?

[kate140983]

I think it's very hard to confront the person under suspicion. Has anyone had any experience in having to confront the pilot? I'm not sure what I would do. How would you word it?

[SLFguy]

"I suggest that the vast majority of noxious and/or alcoholic fumes originate from SLF"


:sad::sad::sad::sad:

[df1]

SLFguy,

Sorry mate but it was time somebody brought it up! :yuk: