Falklands Crash Sites

[Navaleye]

Well it just goes to show how two people on the same ship at the same time can have differing accounts. Enjoy the read, perhaps we can have your thoughts after you've digested.

A question also for out Argentinian friends: HMS Glamorgan reported that her radar was being jammed on several occasions. Which unit was responsible for that?

[reydelcastillo]

I'll check with the other forum and see who was jamming -

As far as I know , two long range radasr operating , non of which should jam , one Roland and 35 mm systems which I don't think could jam either -

But I'll put the request on the other forum

[reydelcastillo]

While waitting on a response from the other forum

On may 01 in the afternoon three ships approach the coast south of Stanley to start naval bombardment , the Rolnad which was at the bottom of Sapper Hill , engaged one of the ships but did not fire because it was on its limite of range - It would be posible that it could have something to do with a jamming at that moment ?

[Navaleye]

Some interesting pictures here (http://www.museomalvinas.com.ar/galerias.asp) from the Malvinas museum in Argentina. Section 4 shows some crash sites.

[Navaleye]

Jualbo,

In response to your post 238


Still a mistery if Glamorgan was close or not.

Not really, The Exocet was spotted visually by Glamorgan's navigator passing off her starboard side approximately 1/2 mile away.

Also reported being jammed by Skyguard.

[reydelcastillo]

Naveleye , and please Jualbo coorect me if I'm wrong , but I remmember that at least two times and it could be as much as three times that the exorcet was tried to fire -

I remmebre that we were told when a shot was going to be tried so we updated positions of the ships as much as each 30 seconds -

I also remmeber one of those nights in which the exorcet was going to be fire , that after updating nothing happen and we were told something like :
Well we had it but when we hit the switch the doors of the container that hold the exorcet did not open so it did not shoot

Another night also with us being told that a launch was gioing to be executed and after updating the info on ships , well nothing happen - We ask and the answere was : well it did fire but nobody knows were it went , they are still searching for it

And then came the night of may 11 with the shot that hit HMS Glanmorgan -
Could the one that was fire and no one knows were it went could be the one Glanmorgan sees half a mile away going by ?

These are the conversations I remmebre with the Air Post Command -

[Snapshot]

Amazing photographs Navaleye!
Brings home the human side of war very strongly! Thanks for the link!
Snaps

[Navaleye]

Snapshot,

Thanks. I haven't been to the IWM in years. I wonder if they have something similar?

Reydelcastillio,

Another night also with us being told that a launch was gioing to be executed and after updating the info on ships , well nothing happen - We ask and the answere was : well it did fire but nobody knows were it went , they are still searching for it

I can tell you where it went. It hurtled noisily across the flight deck of HMS Avenger, resulting in a change of clothes for the FDO who was standing on it at the time.

[reydelcastillo]

New to me , were you on board HMS Avenger when this happen ?

Regards Enrique

[Navaleye]

Luckily, no but it is documented. I'll look for the sources and let you know.

[bast0n]

Navaleye = Atlantic Conveyor.

This is quite revealing. I have been in contact with the Chief Officer and his recollections are below- some parts edited to remove names. The Board of enquiry report you so kindly forwarded to me states - "1942 - ACO hit by two Exocet......'Hit the deck' called over ships broadcast." This was called AFTER the missiles hit and I am still unsure as wether this was broadcast or just shouted from the bridge.

Chief Officers email to me today.
If you mean Charlie Drought, third Engineer, then having read part of the book myself...I gave up after a few chapters as it was poorly written and not very good on facts...I can understand your question He was/is a nice chap and a reliable watchkeeping engineer..but just not in the know on much of what was going on. He ascribed some statements to me that were not accurate as well.

I was on the Bridge at the time too, and my recollection, without referring to my "report" that I wrote on British Tay.. was that we got Air Raid warning Red and two minutes later the missiles hit us..that's when *the SNO* shouted hit the deck...not by PA. There was a broadcast "Air Raid warning Red" as far as I remember as soon as we got the threat over the radio net.

I was on port Bridge wing when they hit, helping rig the GPMG...I recall a loud bang as they hit but also two supersonic bangs...just like concorde going overhead...but then again there was so much chaff going off difficult for a peace-loving non military man to know what all the noises were !

I think that in all probability he and I are correct in the assertion that we had no idea what was coming from where, and we had absolutely no idea that Exocets were airborne and coming in our direction until after they hit us . As to the claim that there were two separate missile hits each preceded by a broadcast - this is imaginative fiction probably induced by the excitment at the time. All quite undestandable.

I hope that this adds a little informed fact to this fascinating little piece of Naval engagement.

ps - I am still awaiting my copy of the book and will post my reactions to its content then. Keep up your enthralling tales and thanks for the wonderful link to the Argentinean photos.

[Edmund Spencer]

Excellent photos, Navaleye!
Fascinating to put names to faces.
Thanks
ES

[Navaleye]

I recall a loud bang as they hit but also two supersonic bangs..

Unlikely as Exocet is subsonic in all forms. Possibly two impacts? I'm still not convinced,

[bast0n]

Navaleye

Of what are you not convinced? I recall only one explosion and the way I have always described it is a Wa-Wumph that I suppose could loosely be described as two!!

I suspect that the Chief Officers "supersonic bangs" were all part of the general melee of bangs going on all around at the time - and there were a lot of them!

[reydelcastillo]

Avenger report on a Exorcet , fly by at about half a mile , two options here :

Could have been the one exorcet missed fired that nowbody knows were it went or Could bave been 155 mm artillery ground which is quite noicy -
If HMS Avenger was been targeted by us and the 155 mm that would be the case - We incline to think that we were shooting at HMS Avenger with the 155 mm and a ground flew close enough to it - they have a distinctive sound -

Glanmorgan : No we have not been doing any jammin , Could it be that they report jammin because they were targeted by a Triple A system that could have engaged them ?, if not the only other systems that were emiting signals were the long range radar -

Regards Enrique

[bast0n]

Navaleye

I have read the book. The factual inaccuracies are mind boggling. Check out the photo descriptions for a starter. To have remembered all that dialogue is very unlikely given the excitement of the moment – To think that Naval Officers used “old chap” as a normal form of speech shows a total lack of knowledge of the Naval personnel of the 1980s who were on board the ship he was serving in at the time. Have you met 1980s Fleet Airm personnel especially Junglies? Stuffiness and standing on ceremony is certainly not one of their attributes. The chip on his shoulder shines through in many pages. I have little more to add save that this book is more fiction than fact (and appallingly produced) – and if you care not to believe in the Officers in Command of the ship and aviation assets at the time over the memories of the Third Engineer– mostly below decks and not in the informed loop, and written down in this extraordinary book is your privilege– I have no more to add except to say that my copy is available free to anyone who wishes to have it. I do not wish the memories of that great crew of Merchant Seaman and Royal Navy personnel sullied by such nonsense and I do not wish my children to find it in my belongings when I die, and get totally the wrong impression of an amazing and exciting time with amazing and selfless personnel.

[jualbo]

Navaleye, if Glamorgan was passed by the AM-39, she would have to be close to Avenger (the suposed target for the AM-39) or well the AM-39 was defected by chaff and changed its course undetected by the pilots who were suposed to follow it at least during the first moments after launching. Anyway argentineans pilots didn´t report any other ship near Avenger.

The first MM-38 launching happened on 1st june. I read (don´t remember where) that there were a group of ships that night (not only Avenger)

Regards

[Navaleye]

Bast0n,

I agree with you, having read many books on the FW over 2 decades, I've leaned to take most with a pinch of salt, especially those which claim to be factual. Some of the most authoritative accounts whose accuracy is rarely questioned are often plain wrong. Its a shame that only account dedicated to the ACO incident falls into this category.

Welcome Griffiths9/11.

[bast0n]

Navaleye

Thanks for that. The book really upset me by its crass inaccuracies. To have it lying around as the only "record" of the final cruise of the AC is such a shame. There are a few laughs though amongst the illustrations- page 44, picture of a "Seaking vertrepping on the after deck" when in fact it's Wessex 5 on the forward deck!! and best of all, page 120 a picture of HMS Alacrity
F60 (instead of F174) using a photo from 1950 odd of the wartime Alacrity!! Ah well - let it rest.

[ComJam]

Gentlemen,

Thankyou so much for this thread, it's a fantastic read.

Please, someone, write it all down and publish it... :ok:

[Griffiths911]

Navaleye,

I'm in touch with ex CPO Dickie Dawson, 845 Squadron, on the SAMA82 site. Do you remember him?

[Navaleye]

It doesn't ring any bells with me, bast0n may know him.

[Griffiths911]

For those who would like to read the official BOI for the loss of Atlantic Conveyor, HMS Coventry, Antelope as well as the Gazelle XX37 shot down in a blue blue incident by my ship HMS Cardiff:

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | Corporate Publications | Boards of Inquiry (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/CorporatePublications/BoardsOfInquiry/)

[Navaleye]

Griffiths911,

Your diagram does indeed look like the ACO attack and matches closely the diagram in post 217 if viewed from the NE.

Reydelcastillio,

HMS Avenger was attacked on the morning of the 28th May by a shore based MM38 whilst on the Gun Line off Stanley. It was seen by the crew at the time, but for some strange reason, no general warning was broadcast and the news slowly filtered out over the next few days. Had a warning been given the gun line positions would have been altered and the ships closed up at action stations for longer. On Glamorgan, the launch was seen from the ship, the Exocet seen on 992 yet their was still confusion as to what it was. The PWO thought it could have been a helicopter. Maybe fatigue played a part in this as well.

[bast0n]

Navaleye
One small good laugh from "that book". It states that the Chief Officer was winched off from the forward deck rather than going into the sea with the rest of us. I recieved an email from him this morning from near the White Continent saying - "I guess I must have bounced back on board after hitting the water when I went over the side"!

It is so good to see that great humour abounds in the recounting all these tales. I am in contact with the HMS Alacrity website and there are some good tales there also. http://www.hmsalacrity.co.uk/ - (not working this afternoon for some reason.)

[Navaleye]

As you say, I've confined that book to the fiction section. Incidentally, I've asked Ian Inskip (Navigator, Glamorgan) if he could join us and I very much hope could add his insight into the discussion.

[jualbo]

Welcome Griffiths911:
A great news for the forum and specially for this topic you to be here.

Thanks for your explanation but I suspect not RN jargon but my very improvable english. I understood when you talked about gun crew you were talking about the 4,5" one.

Very interesting the picture you put. I think the numbers on the left (20, 40, 60 from down to up) are the radar range in kilometers. I think Agave radar has a search mode and an attack mode. The last one shorter. AM-39 has a maximun range around 50 km if launched at low level, as Falklands was. I see two small echoes on the left, one big in the center and a little one just right of it.

On 25th may raid, I think Ambuscade and Alacrity were in front of AC, from the SUE point of view (N-NW/S-SW). So I didn´t match a lot the diagram. I think they would have to see a first line of ships (type 21) and behind them, the capital ships. The 4th may raid perhaps with the external ring more or less aligned?

Navaleye, the first attempt made with the shore based MM-38 was in the night of 1st june, not in the morning of 28th. They launched the missile against a group of two ships. MM-38 range is 45 km but due to be linked to a RASIT radar which effective range is only 30 km, this was in fact the real range.

So, or Avenger incident is in another date and during night (as shore gunfire used to be) or well is another unknown incident. That day FAA and COAN flew some missions from the mainland although all didn´t find target due to extreme fog condition during all day. In fact all were planified to support combat on Goose Green.

Regards

PS: What a great contact a Glamorgan crew member

[Snapshot]

Griffiths,
perfect mate, just perfect! Thanks for sharing! :ok:
Last pic is awesome! :ok:

[bast0n]

griffiths
Great pictures. Really nice to see the initial grave of H Jones. He was a very good chum of mine. Also I loved the "No flying day". I took mail and videos to Exeter on a day much like that and wondered if I was being sensible. When I got there she insisted that I lowered it all onto the focsle, just to make it easy I suppose!!

[ImageGear]

Brilliant Pictures - but also very sobering.

Sir Tristram carried us back to Marchwood from Belize around '72. Long Spring days passing through the Jamaica Passage and up to Bermuda for a long weekend. Thinking of the accommodation spaces and the "Hangar Deck" in these pictures gives me the shivers.

The OM's done you proud, wish I had kept mine.

Imagegear.

[jualbo]

I´ve been searching in my achieve and found Andrew Mawman testimony (a crew member from Exeter that I contacted around ten years ago). He wrote me that during 30th may raid, he was told that a Sea Dart from them, overflew HMS Avenger in his way towards the A-4C Skyhawks. It happened in daylight as the raid was. But the date doesn´t match. Anybody knows about this history? Is this may be the missile that overflew Avenger´s flight deck?

[Navaleye]

Jualbo,

I;ve just heard from Ian Inskip that he met the guy that pressed the fire button for the hit on Glamorgan, Jose Scaglia . He also has some pictures of the Lear jet memorial which I hope he can share with us. He also points out that the launcher was not at Eliza Cove as mentioned in his book.

[Mzee]

Thought a few phots I dug out of AC might be nice.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/Mzee/IMG_0004.jpg
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/Mzee/IMG_0005.jpg
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/Mzee/IMG_0006.jpg

[bast0n]

Mzee

Great stuff. Have you any more, or if not do you know of anyone who got off with a camera/film, or posted films home before the event?

[Mzee]

Have a few, in Ascension, Chinook on the aft deck! and a mail drop.

[Mzee]

Just a couple more of AC.

View from Ascension
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/Mzee/IMG_0004-1.jpg

Aft deck
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt65/Mzee/IMG_0005-1.jpg

[Navaleye]

Many thanks to "Pontius the Pilot" for contributing the two photos below, Pontius was the Navigating Officer of HMS Glamorgan during the Falklands campaign and is the man to ask if you have any questions on her movements. Welcome.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/Navaleye/201eb95b.jpg

Turbo mentor wreckage on Pebble Island

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/Navaleye/7d01b845.jpg

Lear Jet memorial. Is that two sisters in the background? Jualbo?

[bast0n]

Mzee

With the rear door lowered and beautiful weather it all looks so easy compared to this!!

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/img041.jpg

[Navaleye]

Great pic, what happened to Bravo Oscar?

[MAINJAFAD]

The Learjet came down over Pebble Island didn't it???

[jualbo]

Hi every body. Thanks for the contacts.

Ken, the name of Exeter crew member is Andrew Mawman not Ian.

Navaleye I agree with MAINJAFAD that the Learjet fell down on Pebble island. So I think that´s where probably the memorial is. But the one in the photo only have two crosses while five men were killed in the Learjet. Are you sure it´s the memorial of Learjet?

Regards

[Creaking Door]

Hello all,

Have just been directed to this fascinating thread by Griffiths911 (thanks, Ken); haven’t had time to read it all yet but some great photographs have been posted.

One slight correction; isn’t that ‘turbo mentor’ photograph a Shorts Skyvan? One was destroyed (comprehensively) during the RN / SAS raid on the Pebble Island airstrip.

I hope I can contribute something a bit more useful in future.

WA$.

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi guys, I'm also a new member and arrived here from the Keypublishing forums thanks to Griffith's and Creaking Door.
I'm an Argentine aviation and defense researcher and found this is a fascinating post, with a lot of good information and the accounts of those involved are very interesting.
As I'm now researching about the war, I will return with some questions for you.

All the best!
Santiago

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi, the wreck at Pebble Island is a Prefectura Naval Argentina Shorts Skyvan serial PA-50, destroyed during the SAS raid. The other Skyvan deployed, PA-54 was damaged on may 1st during the bombing, but was repaired. On May 6th was taken to the racecourse, but was damaged during landing and never flew again. Later was destroyed by gunfire from British ships.
Excellent pictures from Atlantic Conveyor. Does someone has good pictrues of the ship after the attack? The account by bast0n is wonderful as I never read the story of the attack from a crew member of the ship.
At last, the Wessex used for the attack against Menendez was the only AS.12 capable on the islands?
To Edmond Spencer: do you think that using Dagger or MIIIEA escorts to the attack planes could change things from May 21 on? I see that on may 1st, when a lot of Argentine fighters were sent, the attack escadrilles arrived to their targets and escaped without being intercepted by the SHARs, except in the case of the Canberras, which were with no cover from the Mirages or Daggers.

[Edmund Spencer]

Santiago,
Many thanks for your input and welcome.
I guess I can only comment regarding the two actions I was involved in.
On May 24 'Oro' section led by Capt Diaz was in a quite close arrow formation when we intercepted them at low level from the north. I was flying as number two to my squadron CO, Andy Auld, and I remember paying a great deal of attention to the airspace about two miles behind the raid as this was where I expected the escort to be. Had there been an escort of, say, two missile and gun armed Mirage III's we would have had to engage them first and 'Oro' would undoubtedly have got through to the target area.
These would have been our tactics had the roles been reversed.
On June 8 the visibility and light were much worse but a card escort would have posed a critical threat to Dave Morgan and myself as we attacked Hector Sanchez' formation of four A4's.
ES

[bast0n]

Santiago Rivas

These have been posted before but maybe not here. I have a couple more but these will give you an idea! Welcome to the thread, it is a fascinating story from both sides.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/jsf_img091.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/jsf_Atlantic_Conveyor_Fire02.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/jsf_Photo_scan_3731.jpg

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi Edmund and bast0n, thanks for your replies and the Atlantic Conveyor pics. Edmund, I have another question for you. Almost all Argentine sources say the AIM-9L was decisive in the air war, but I can see that, as almost all shots were made from behind, using a former version of the Sidewinder will probably make the same result in air combats. What do you think?

[Edmund Spencer]

You are quite correct, Santiago, most of the shots were fired from at or near the six o'clock position. There were however, some notable execptions.
Steve Thomas talks about a high angle off shot against Jorge Senn on 21st May and my shot against Raul Diaz on 24 May was about 90 degrees off. There may have been others.
From memory the AIM9L used a feature called lamda compensation to cut the corner on a turning target and thus make the acquisition easier for itself. This was a major technology jump from the AIM9G. The Lima also had the capability of detecting the heat on the leading edges of a supersonic target and thereby gave you a limited head on shot.
I believe the accuracy of the proximity fuzing may also have been a factor. The shot I took at Danilo Bolzan on 8 June was from below 100 feet and I was unable to put him on the horizon so he would have been well below. The time between missile impact and ground impact was less than a second so I have always assumed he was at extremely low altitude. Would an AIM9G have fuzed on the ground prior to the hit?
I regret I don't remember the specifics of the AIM9G as I had just joined the squadron from training and only worked up on the AIM9L. The weapons experts out there would have to determine if a 'G' would have achieved kills in the instances I have mentioned above.
ES

[ARXW]

For all my love of all things 'air combat' I couldn't elaborate more on this and Mr Edmund has elaborated more than I have seen on the subject for some time. So I say:

Bring in the AWI!

After the demise of the cat n trap traditional carrier force and the demise of the AWI squadron (764), weapons instructor (or rather air warfare instructor) trade was perpetuated by the older AWIs from the F-4 and Bucc force but in 801 incredibly an ex mud moving crab (Flt Lt Ian Mortimer) was the squadron AWI and for 800 during the conflict I am not sure but there were at least two Lt Cdrs (Tony Ogilvy and Mike Blissett) who's input we could use around here. However, in an old exchange with Moggy (Lt Cdr Dave Morgan) he'd told me that after the war AWI instruction was carried out at 899 and between 1978 and 1982 it apparently had not been formalised and the man who did do so was Ian Mortimer RAF helped by then Dave Morgan RAF (among others I presume?). Moggy did qualify as an AWI in 1984, and seeing as I do that he was looking for you in these forums some months (or years?) ago, he could be very useful in answering these questions! (Unfortunately as soon as you came into the forum he disappeared from it!! (Lovely book of his by the way. Especially relevant would be the section of his flying over Cornwall IIRC where he has a loud growl from his on board AIM9L on a heap of sheep's dung in the countryside!!! Talk about sensitivity! A Mirage in full afterburner would appear to an AIM9L's infrared seeker head to stink to high heaven by comparison then!:)

[Santiago Rivas]

Thanks Edmund and ARXW. Excellent information. As I can see, there was some advantage and some kills could be thanks of the Lima improvements, but most kills could be also made using the AIM-9G.
One more question, at what height you did the PACs? Because the cover missions flown by the Mirage III and Daggers were usually very high.

[Willoz269]

This is rather interesting....


Italeri 1/48 Mirage IIIE converted to Dagger, by Pablo Calcaterra (http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/mod/fr/calm3.htm)

One of the better accounts of air to air action I have read regarding the Neshers...

[Edmund Spencer]

Yes, Pablo has done exceptionally well here.
The accounts from all parties are quite different and it is extremely difficult to piece together exactly what actually happened. Piuma, for example, claims he has both Sea Harriers in sight throughout the combat but is then mysteriously hit from behind by an unseen combatant! (Actually, Sharkey.)
When I get a moment I will publish the combat as seen by Donadille. (Bearing in mind he was the first to be shot down.)
Pablo also sent me this web site in Spanish:
Combate Aéreo en los Cielos del Atlántico Sur - 1982 - Defensa.pe - Foro de Defensa y Actualidad Militar (http://www.defensa.pe/showthread.php?t=2784)
I don't think Martin Hale will like this!
ES

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi Edmund, I just PM you.

[Navaleye]

For those interested I would recommend this read - see last post.

Here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/98152-sea-jet-107.html#post4735542)

[Edmund Spencer]

Completely concur, Navaleye.
Similar to Sharkey's book which is wrecked by his incessant bleating about 800 NAS
ES

[Willoz269]

Wow Edmund, that is good work in that forum page in Spanish.... a couple of good photos of you during the campaign as well!

I have high hope sites well informed (and well informed people) will finish off some of the rubbish that I read in some of the official sites....like reports of Garcia Cuerva telling Perona of the impending Sidewinder strike because Garcia Cuerva "apparently" knew where both SHAR were....Perona makes no mention of this...in fact, he thought he had collided with a previously unseen SHAR!!

Also, and the worst of all, an account in an Argentinian website with official links in which someone with a lot of imagination reports that Garcia Cuerva disengaged from the SHAR dogfight, turned towards Stanley...and whilst arguing with the Stanley controllers, saw a SHAR about to land at Hermes...he promptly somehow shot it down in flames and came in to land at Stanley, where he was shot down by the Argentinian Army AAA....

I have no idea why someone would think this absurdity would elevate the name of Garcia Cuerva or his skill as a pilot...if anything, I believe it puts in doubt anything anyone says about his true skill, which should never be in question, regardless who the pilot or combatant is!

[jualbo]

Hi every body, Very interesting all you said.
I put a link to a very interesting map in an argentinean webpage (thanks to 2-A-203 (from Zona militar foros)):
Falklands "What if...?" - Page 19 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=81971&page=19)

http://2.bp.*************/_4Iv-9uu9fCc/SKiXG9JoXaI/AAAAAAAAABE/pKnI6-0GeFk/s1600-h/DSCN2975.JPG

I think is a key map to undestand Canberras evolutions on 1st may. It also places british fleet detected by Tracker. The Canberra downed by Sea Harrier was shot around 120 north from Pebble island while ARA San Luis (and subsequently Yarmouth and Brilliant hunt) was around 25 miles north from East Falkland. If you track a line betwen Berkeley sound, the San Luis op area and Trellew, the place where the Canberra is shot down and Trellew, ALL MATCH.

http://araindomita-intrepida-1982.*************


Great the link to Pablo´s webpage and specially Piuma´s words about his combat on 21st may (I´ve never listened and I´ve always thought he was downed in third place. I studied Senn, Ward and Donaidille words and have some little differences about Pablo text.

In my opinion, and after reading Senn and Donaidille (in Salvador Mafé book for example), Donaidille and Senn were flying close and in a paralel course to Ward. Wrad broke to his left to intercept them. Donaidille turned right to face Ward, while Thomas is unseen for him. He fired around 700 meters distance in order to fear Ward and avoid his interception course towards Senn who kept the course during some time although Donaidille has ordered him to turn right. Then Donaidille crosses Ward who is turning to his right and below Donaidille. The argentinenan captain tried to follow him heading down and turning hard left, to the place where he thinks Ward had to appear. And he appeared from left to right being fired by Donaidille for second time. While he tried to level his plane to make another turn to right to follow the combat against Ward, suddenly, Senn crosses him from left to right . They are close to have a collision. Donaidille lost the combat situation due to the maniouver he had to do to avoid Senn and decided to go home behind Senn. In that moment I think Senn must be in a S-SW course. While Thomas finished his own evolution and placed himself just behind the two argentineans planes that are downed with AIM-9L.
Ward that had headed down and right to avoid Donaidille in the cross, kept his right hard turn almost 360º and then sees in his right a Dagger passing him lower. He finish his turn and fired him. He was Piuma. I had never listened or read his words, but according to Ward he had to be almost in his hot tail 6 o´clock.

In Senn testimony I never listened any mention to an advertisment by Piuma that he had been fires a missile. If Piuma really saw a Sea Harrier pursuiting his fellows, he was probably Thomas, not Ward. If he fired at him from the rear the logical would be to remain in that position where has not been seen and he could down the british that was flying slower and was an easy prey. Passing him is not logical at all if you have seen it.

Senn also saw a Sea Harrier that Donaidille suspects is a different one from that seen by him (Ward). That´s why he didn´t turn right at the same time than his leader. But any way he finally turned right and is downed by the suposed Sea Harrier seen by him which was trying to avoid, what doesn´t match very well.

Do you have any original interview to Piuma?

Very very interesting posts.
Reagards

[Navaleye]

Looks like the one shot up by Jerry Pook. Another Puma in the background. I can't remember if they lost one or two. One did fly back to the mainland before the end of the conflict.

[cosmiccomet]

The Argentine Army sent its two Chinook, one of them was distroy during a bomb run by the Harrier.
The other one was left in the islands. It was ferried to UK later on.
The british recovered it and it is flying with the blue and red flag.:{

The Argentine Air Force had operated onother two Chinook, both were flying back to the continent shortly before the end of the conflict.

They also left two Bell 212 in flying conditions but the souvenir hunters destroyed it.

The Argentine Cost Guard left one Puma with minor damage, but it was ferried to UK and recovered to flying conditions.

Also two Army Augusta 109 were ferried to UK and transfered to their army.

[jualbo]

Navaleye, did you see the map I linked to? You can see argentine naval movements as well as the place where british fleet was detected on 1st may. Also the exact position where the Canberra bomber was downed on that day and ARA San Luis OP area.
Do you think the place where a carrier and seven escorts were detected by a 25 may S-2 Tracker is right?

[Navaleye]

Jualbo,

I did look at it but can't now seem to find it, could you re-post it please.

Thx

[MAINJAFAD]

Chinook on fire was hit by 30mm Aden fire by Flt Lt Mark Hare on the morning of 21st May 1982, to the north west of Mt Kent. (I've stood in the wreckage 10 years ago)

[AR1]

Note the Puma, in the first photo, that gets hit next time around, as Pook &Hare go round again.
The Chinook can be seen in photos posted earlier in this thread.

The Harriers had dropped CBU's prior to this photo being taken, and from around where these photos were taken, there was strong post war evidence of CBU detonation.
Heres Hares gun camera still showing the Chinook.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee114/AR_1_b/hare_gun.jpg

[Navaleye]

Jualbo,

I have reason to dispute it. Woodward mentions that he had just entered the TEZ and had no intention of being kicked out. That tallies with the position on your map.

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi AR1, from where this photo was scanned? I never seen it before.

[jualbo]

Some very good photos:
Los halcones del cielo en San Carlos on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/25062883@N05/3103873462/in/set-72157608238222266/)
I think it´s taken on 23 may and it´s an A-4Q (they attacked in this raid Antelope, Yarmouth on Chancho Pt and Broadsword)

Skyhawk a punto de atacar al HMS Glasgow on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/25062883@N05/3103041615/in/set-72157608238222266/)

The photo says HMS Glasgow, but I suspect may be she´s HMS Coventry under attack on 25th may and the photo is taken from HMS Broadsword flight deck. Although she was smoking for Carballo´s bomb and had a big hole in his flight deck that removed Sea Lynx nose. You can see the helo but not the nose.

What do you think?

PS: Great photos from Ken and AR1.

[Griffiths911]

No, HMS Broadsword was astern of the Coventry that day.

[AR1]

Santiago,
the photo from Hare's gunsight is taken from the history of No1 Sqn, by Michael Shaw, which contains many photo's from 1Sqn archives.

rgds

[jualbo]

Thanks Ken. So it´s taken from Brilliant. Do you know if the skyhawk is from the first wave or from the second on 12th may?

The first wave was composed by Bustos, Nivoli, Ibarlucea and Vázquez.
The second by Zelaya, Arrarás, Gavazzi and Dellepiane.

Vázquez was the only survivor in his flight. He attacked Glasgow and missed.

Three in the second wave attacked Glasgow while the forth went for Brilliant.

[reydelcastillo]

Hi Ken , Jualbo, Rivas , Mr Spencer and all members of the Forum -

The Argie Forum has open a thread called : Falklands/Malvinas Conflict , Its in English , we all welcome you to visit it , and bring your accounts - We are going to talk of Military Accions only -
We would like to Honor Veterans of the Conflict from both Sides -

Please Join us -

Jualbo could you please help me post the link to the Zona Militar in Argentina -

Thank You - Enrique

[cosmiccomet]

Dear friends and collegues, you are very welcome to ZM forum.
We have many Malvinas/Falkands war veterans between the ZM's members.

It would be a pleasure to change information about the actions during the conflict.

See you around ZM.

[reydelcastillo]

Cosmicomet , we forgot to put the Link -
Do you know how to put it ?

Jualbo could you help us with the link - I don't know how to do it

Thank You -

[Gabotdf]

here is the link
Falklands War/ Guerra de Malvinas - Foros Zona Militar (http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/showthread.php?t=18569)

Several of the Argie that have been posting here are going to be over there - Members of other Forums (Militaryphotos.net / Keypublishing / ) are going to be invited to participate
If anyone has a problem to register please let me know and I will be glad to help.
Any suggestion related to this rules is welcome.
A British Moderator has to be named , by British Participants
It will be a great honour for us to share experiences specially with war veterans.

Regulation

1) It is a bilingual forum with features of being English-speaking guests, the post in spanish will be translated into English
2) The posts in English, at the request of Argentine users will be translate to spanish
3) Only touch the issues specific to military actions during the conflict
4) Issues related to politics, discussions about sovereignty, historical background will be excluded - its a forum exclusively to talk about military action
5) You must use appropriate language, excluding bad words or insults and disqualifications
6) Not be allowed signatures and avatars with political slogans, issues about sovereignty and the historical background
7) Those who violate the rules will be warned only once, following action will be excluded / expelled

Objectives

Exchanging stories and information about military actions during the conflict in the South Atlantic War in order to know the true story of the actions

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi Jualbo, The photo is from the second wave, as the first one didn't reach the Glasgow. Do you know where to find this photo in greater size? it's very small to see the Skyhawk and the Glasgow well.

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi AR1, do you know how can I find this book about 1 Sqdn?

[jualbo]

Hi Enrique. I arrived late. Thanks to Gabotdf.

Hi Santiago. According to my info Vázquez overflew the target and dropped his bomb falling close to stern. In FAA webpage says that some Vázquez fellows were downed before get the ship but other were crashed after passing her. I´m sorry but don´t have the photo bigger. Ask for the person who put it in INTERNET.

Thanks AR-1 for the PM.

Regards

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi Jualbo, you're right, Vázquez could launched his bomb and didn't hit.

[Navaleye]

Cosmicomet said:

Also two Army Augusta 109 were ferried to UK and transfered to their army.

What became of these two birds when sent to the UK?

[taxydual]

One, certainly, became an inventory item (and a much used one at that) with a certain Regiment that hung out in Hereford.

[Santiago Rivas]

Both Agusta were first used by the Royal Marines and later used for SAS operations. I will look for their serials and complete stories at home. As far as I know, they are still in service in England.
Does anybody know what happened to the Army Chinook captured?

[Green Flash]

Havn't the 109's been replaced recently? And didn't a working Huey also change ownership too? I seem to remember reading (Middlebrook??) that one was captured intact. Not having any experience of them ourselves I believe a concerted 'press everything' campaign eventually unearthed the starter button under the throttle!

[ninja-lewis]

Santiago Rivas
"Both Agusta were first used by the Royal Marines and later used for SAS operations. I will look for their serials and complete stories at home. As far as I know, they are still in service in England.
Does anybody know what happened to the Army Chinook captured?"

This site has information on the Chinook:
Boeing's CH-47C Chinook in service to the country of Argentina. (http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/history/aircraft/argentina/argentina.html)
Boeing's Mark 2 (HC2) Chinook helicopter. (http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/chinook/aft_pylon_removal.html)

[scarecrow450]

Both the A109's are still in use but are being replaced by a more modern type.
Belive part of the Chinook was mated to a damaged RAF machine and I think !! it now flies as part of ZD704.

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi, the Agustas were put in service by the Royal Marines until after arrival to England were overhauled and then delivered to the Army, with serials ZE411 the AE-331 and ZE410 the AE-334.

They used a civil paint scheme and are used for training for special units.

[cosmiccomet]

Dear friends for 24/48 hrs, www.zonamilitar.com.ar (http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar) is under maintenace.

I hope, it would be online tomorrow.

See you there.

Ariel

[Gabotdf]

It's now online

[Willoz269]

Found this photo on another forum.,..had never seen it before...Lt Jeff Glover being retrieved after ejecting.

RapidShare: Easy Filehosting (http://rapidshare.com/files/206989613/LtGlovercaptured.jpg.html)

[reydelcastillo]

Thank you Sir for coming by the Zona Militar forum -

Very few of us have had the Honor and Privilage of exchanging accounts with British Veterans and British Historians as you - For those few of us , we have realy learn a lot , we aere able to undersatnad that there is another side of the story besides that which had always been told to us -

Most of the members of the Zona Militar have never had the chance to read direct accounts of British Veterans as Griffith / Jimmy/ Mr Spencer and many more ) , they have never had the chance to read from British Historians that have devoted many years gathering information -
Al those Argies have been told told only one side of the Story , it's time for them to know the other side -

My Country has written the History , right there after the events , in the mid of the Fog of War , without doing checks and balance , without checking the info with other sources , and what we have now is the result of a History wich most probably has at least inacuracies -

That is why it is so important for them to be able to read from you all what is it that has happen during the conflict , and once and for all bury the ghosts of the war that we still have walking arround -

Thank you very much - Sincerely yours - Enrique Rey

As you have seen al post are in English , we have kind of an " Enigma Machine " , remmeber that Enigma Machine of WW 2, well this one translates directly from English to Spanish so they can understand -

Its also known as Google Translator that we use down there -

So please keep your posts , as usual in English , we handle the "enigma machine " Thank you -

[SGWalter]

This is in response to the #85 (http://www.pprune.org/4559064-post85.html) comment.
I think that could be the crash of the Navy Captain Jose Cesar Arca's Skyhawk A4Q, that happened on 21st May 1982, at 16:30 (Argentine time).
Arca survived that mission and the video was taken by a former argentine navy marine officer, who was on the island for the purposes of video recording the war.

[reydelcastillo]

I did not know that the Navy had someone recording the events -
I know about Kasanzew ( war corresponsal ) I saw him on the islands filming -
What else do you know that the Navy Officer may have film , which other event may he have recorded ?

Thank you
Regards Enrique

[PabloCalcaterra]

Hello (to the person who made comments on my text regarding the combat, using Maffe Huertas book)

All information stated in my article regarding the combat of the Ratones was made with fresh (2008) interviews and emails to Donadille and Piuma.
We disussed the combat using drawings as well.
This is the latest information, first hand.
Pablo

[jualbo]

Hello Pablo. Thanks for the answer.

I would love to read Piuma testimony of the combat. I had read Donaidille as well as Senn testimonies but not Piuma. According to my particular view, Piuma would be flying some distance from his fellows what let him to appear in scene the last one. Probably in a left rear position of the incoming flight. As the flight was intercepted from the right (Ward) and front (Thomas), that would have let Piuma to dog fight in last place.

As Dave kindly posted, Piuma fired against Ward, from his 5 or 6 o´clock, failing in the attempt. This is a great news as would be the only argentinean jet who get such a position against a Sea Harrier in all war.

So Ward was fired by Donaidille in two ocasions (when he broke to face him and just after crossing) and by Piuma.

But as I told, these are my supositions. Be free to send a pm if you prefer

Regards

[PabloCalcaterra]

Hello Jualbo
You are right. Ward was fired at 3 times.
Check my article with all the info from Donadille, Piuma and Thomas, along with my model.
Pablo
Italeri 1/48 Mirage IIIE converted to Dagger, by Pablo Calcaterra (http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/mod/fr/calm3.htm)

[ARXW]

As Dave kindly posted, Piuma fired against Ward, from his 5 or 6 o´clock, failing in the attempt. This is a great news as would be the only argentinean jet who get such a position against a Sea Harrier in all war.

Excuse me if I am wrong but in the 8 June fight didn't Hector Sanchez have a guns jam while flying behind Dave Morgan? He then overshot and escaped.

[green granite]

The power of PPRuNe
Found this photo on another forum.,..had never seen it before...Lt Jeff Glover being retrieved after ejecting.

RapidShare: Easy Filehosting



Error

This file is neither allocated to a Premium Account, or a Collector's Account, and can therefore only be downloaded 10 times.

This limit is reached.

To download this file, the uploader either needs to transfer this file into his/her Collector's Account, or upload the file again. The file can later be moved to a Collector's Account. The uploader just needs to click the delete link of the file to get further information.
A

[PabloCalcaterra]

No, that did not happen.
Morgan says so in his book but Sanchez denies it happened. He was only trying to escape and in a moment he was practically face to face (head on) with the Harriers and then he turned to escape.
In fact, Morgan's statement has been denied by Sanchez in an email to me as late as Dec 08, when I asked specifically that question.
"Mr. Spencer" I believe coincides that due to the speed and position of the planes at the moment, it would have been pretty much improbable for Sanchez to get (even by chance) in a firing position behind Morgan.
Pablo

[sandiego89]

Does anyone know if the pilot and co-pilot doors from the Argentinian CH-47 were "borrowed" for use on the RAF Chinook "Bravo Novemeber"? I have read that BN had a near crash and jettioned it's doors, and have also seen pictures of Argentinian Army AE-520 with it's doors removed. So were they removed for use on BN or as souvenirs?

[Modly]

Mark Nine:
There was an interesting article in 'Flypast' magazine about the Falklands war crash sites a few months back.Can you please tell us what number of "Fly Past" it was?
Thanks

[Willoz269]

Greengranite, the file has been downloaded too many times for Rapidshare...send me a PM and I will email you the photo.

Found this video in Spanish....an interview of Lt Arca shortly after he was shot down...lots of footage of the wreckage of the A-4Q

YouTube - Documental Malvinas 2/7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnQ9VreWrX0)

[MAINJAFAD]

I used to work with a guy called Geoff Fish who was a helicopter pilot during the war. He used to recount a tale of a mechanical failure which lead to his helicopter crash landing in a pond. I've tried googling this in order to find out more info but I drew a blank so can anyone on PPRuNe add any details?

In an earlier post I quoted the Helicopter was a Scout. Well here are the details.

On the 8th June 1982, a Scout AH1 (XR628/DO) of 656 Sqn AAC was forced to take avoiding action by going to a very low hover (several feet above Macphee pond (Gird Ref VC 018551)) from a formation of Grupo 5 Skyhawks south west of Fitzroy (The aircraft that successfully attacked the two LSL's). After the attack had passed, the pilot started to climb away, at which point the main gearbox failed (Tail rotor drive) and the pilot managed to make an immediate forced landing into the pond (which was about four feet deep) with very little damage to the airframe (CAT 2). After REME techs removed the weapons sight and the engine, the airframe was airlifted to Fitzroy on 11 June by a Sea King and was returned to the UK on 12th July 82 on board MV Elk. However, according to my source (Falklands, the Air War) The crew of the Scout at the time of the accident was Sgt Dick Kalinski (Pilot) and Cpl Juilian Rigg (Gunner).

[jualbo]

I have re-reading Sharkey Ward book and found some interesting info about 8th june interception of Mazo flight by 800 Sqn.

According to Ward, he and Steve Thomas saw all the action. The fourth Shyhawk (Sánchez) would have jettisoned his fuel tanks over the eastern island of Choiseul Sound. They tried to chase him when were vectored to intercept three Mirage III that came from the west. According to him, that saved Sánchez to be shot down.

Mirage returned home when were close (15 miles) to them.

Regards all.

[BTDTGTTShirt]

Sandiago

In answer to your question on Chinook BN the co's door was only replaced after the war. It was lost on the night of 30May/1 June after hitting the water just north of Astancia House. BN was operating in support of the Commando artillary and had just put in 3 105 guns on the slopes of Mt Kent. they came under fire and were egressing at low level in very poor weather and low vis on goggles when they hit the water at about 100 kts. The bow wave from the water strike came right over the cockpit but fortunately did not break through the perspex. The co thinking they had ditched jettisened his door and was about to escape when the skipper called him to help on the collective and between them they they pulled her out. They then returned to San Carlos at medium level with all their lights on because they couldnt get through on the radios and didnt want to get shot down by the AD boys.

The missing door became a recognition feature on the aircraft though. The Brit troops were aware that the Argentinans had CH47's but they were also awere that BN had lost one door. A few days after the Mt Kent mission they were moving troops forward from Goose Green when they flew close to the 105 battery who turned their guns around to attack it on its second run. Fortunately one of the gunners realised that the co's door was missing and called off the attack.

Hope that helps

[sandiego89]

BT, thank you for the story on doors on BN. Must have been quite a ride hitting the water like that.

[Navaleye]

Greetings Pablo and welcome. Andy Auld was not in the RAF, but was a Lt Commander in the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm and the CO of 800 NAS. I am sure you will get a PM form someone soon helping you find him.

Navaleye

[airborne_artist]

Andy Auld is not a member of the FAAOA (new handbook arrived today) but I guess someone at the office knows how to find him. Try Fleet Air Arm Officers' Association, FAAOA, Contact Us (http://www.fleetairarmoa.org/pages/contact/contact.shtml)

[Navaleye]

Since the Falklands War went on 27 years ago this week, I would like to pose a question. The UK expended considerable effort on trying to close the run. As far as I know, high level bombing by Sea Harriers was proposed but not tried. Sharkey Ward suggested 5 Shars in card formation flying down the axis of the runway from West to East at 15,000+ feet. In clear weather it sounds a possibility. Why was it not tried?

[taxydual]

Navaleye.

Re High level bombing.

Please respect that I am an amateur, but my see on the situation was that the Shars were primarily AD. The Task Force had only a limited number of airframes. To commit the Shars to GA could/did/would create irreplaceable assets. Just my take.

As an aside, 27 years ago. Doesn't time fly? 10 days to the anniversary.

[Edmund Spencer]

Navaleye, M'Dear Chap.
Actually, we did try it! For a period of several days, may even have been a couple of weeks, we all carried a single 1000lb centreline bomb with a DA fuze of sorts on the way outbound from the carrier to the CAP station.
The idea was to drop it over Stanley airfield at high level during the transit.
You can read about it in Sharkey's book and how it led to the greatest 'switch pigs' of the conflict. One of the difficulties in the Sea Harrier cockpit was that the 'pickle' button had several functions amongst which were missile firing, bomb release, camera run, acceptance of loft attack etc.
In the case of a bombs attack it was crucial to deselect the missiles, something Sharkey forgot during one of these bomb passes!! It also explains why John Leeming couldn't fire his missiles when behind an A4 (forgot to select) and ended up closing to one of the most spectacular guns kills of the conflict.
The Sea Harrier had absolutely no high level bomb aiming sight or capability whatsoever so the release point was ridiculously inaccurate. I have no idea where any of my bombs landed.
One of the reasons Gordy Batt ended up dropping his free fall 1000lb bomb on the Narwhal was that he was carrying it after having passed over Stanley in bad weather and had been unable to sight the airfield. (Bloody good job it didn't go off!!!)
All the best
ES

[jualbo]

Hi all again and welcome Pablo.
I have´ve been searching some info about Ardiles downing. Do you remember that Hale and Penfold reported to be guided towards more than one Dagger? Well I think that found an explanantion:
One of the Daggers (1st Lt Román) from "Torno" flight (the section that attacked Arrow, Glamorgan and Alacrity south of Stanley) had radio problems and also fuel transfer trouble fro m his external drop tanks. This made him to go up in order to save fuel. It seems that Argentinean Air Force radar at Stanley detected a Sea Harrier CAP trying to intercept him and vectored two CAPs of Dagger towards them. One of them were the "Fortin" flight (Donadille and Senn) who pursuited the british CAP until get them to abort the prosecution of Román plane who, due to his radio problems, didn´t know what was happening. But probably, Lt Ardiles plane, from "Rubio" flight, who was the only member of his CAP (his leader had mechanical problems before taking off) was also advertised to intercept the CAp and got into fight against Penfold-Hale. The timetibles of all actions match. "Rubio" was on the islands when "Torno" attacked and "Fortin" arrived a bit later.
Perhaps the other Dagger was Lt Román.
"Fierro" CAP, by a solitary Dagger (Cap Díaz) from San Julián Air base was flown earlier in the morning (FAA webpage has an error about the timetible), so couldn´t be the other Dagger.

Pablo it could be great that the then Major Luis Puga, would participate in the forum. He flown two antishipping mission. In the second was downed.
In the first one, on 21st may he was one of the members of Laucha flight together 1st Lt Román and 1st Lt Mario Callejo. Callejo scaped by miracle from the Sea Harriers that downed Puga on 24th may. He was returning after attacking in San Carlos as a member from "Plata" flight (the previous section to "Oro") and just passed by the same place where two Sea Harriers had just downed all "Oro" members. He was chased some miles but flying supersonically could evade.
On 21st may mission, 1st Lt Román and Major Puga attacked HMS Ardent just before the first trio of A-4Qs from Argentine Navy and after a previous Dagger section that had damaged the ship that was in flames at the moment. Callejo attacked in solitary HMS Brilliant hitting her with his guns causing some injuried and damaging the ship´s CIC.
Puga couldn´t drop his bombs for a technical failure and Román failed.

Edmund, do you think Ward really had an oportunity to chase Sánchez on 8th june?

Regards

[ARXW]

Nice to see this fine thread resurrected!

Silvasonic,
good luck with finding Andy Auld! i would have thought you might be off the mark when you say Major Puga is 70 years old but then it's already been 27 years since the Falklands war! Unbelievable! Time flies!

by the way there's a new book on the war called:
The Falklands War Then and Now
by Gordon Ramsey

I think it's the most comprehensive pictorial account by far! You can, also, see a pic of a young fighter jock with his hair on fire called ..ahem..Edmund Spencer!

[Edmund Spencer]

I didn't know the precise location of Sharkey Ward and Steve Thomas during this action. Only that they were on CAP down to the south east of us. (I think.)
My whereabouts obviously came as a complete surprise to Sharkey evidenced by his exclamation on the radio "Who fired that shot?!"
Whether or not he could have got into a firing position against Hector, I have my doubts. I was flying in excess of 600 kts and fired a very rangey shot at Bolzan. Assuming Sharkey would have been behind me on completion of his intercept, I very much doubt he would have been in weapon range let alone visual.
On another but related subject, I understand Major Luis Puga has expressed a desire to communicate with Andy Auld. I quote:
As I understand that Auld is the one who shot me down, I want to re-live in a positive way what happened on that May 24th, 1982 at 11:08 am.
Seems like Andy is a sought after person. If anyone could PM a contact I would much appreciate.
ES

[E-RPM SOFT COM]

There was an interesting article in 'Flypast' magazine about the Falklands war crash sites a few months back


E-RPM SOFT COM
336-793-0285

[Marcantilan]

Hello people,

Maybe the experts in the forum could help me (and thanks in advance...)

I´m trying to establish which airplane / piot tried to intercept an Argentine Tracker (a low velocity target) mid morning / noon on May 29, 1982, while it was flying just north off Falklands Sound.

The Tracker (commander Lt. Membrana - a friend of mine, BTW) had a Blue Fox ESM alert while flying at 8000 feet, dived and stayed inside a cloud until the alert dissapeared.

He damaged both propellers in that action and he is trying to find someone to blame!

Regards!

[Reestini]

Edmund,
My memory of the airwar in the Falkland Islands is a picture of an A4 shootdown from the gun camera of a SeaHarrier.
What was most notable to me was that the reporter tried to elicit a remark from the Harrier pilot about his feeling of accomplishment, but the Harrir pilot said that his initial reaction was nausea, as the man in the Skyhawk had died.
Do you remember this?

Thanks for an interesting visit to history.

Reestini

[Edmund Spencer]

I believe the incident you refer to is when John Leeming shot down an A4 using his 30mm Aden cannons.
John was an ex-Lightning pilot who had done the "very" short Sea Harrier course and then come down to the South Atlantic onboard the Atlantic Conveyer. He and several others flew onboard HMS Hermes just before the AC was hit and sunk in an excocet attack by Argentinean Super Etendards.
The story goes that John found himself behind an A4 but had neglected to switch on the power to his missile system prior to entering combat and, no matter how much he was pressing the missile fire button, nothing happened.
Glancing down into the cockpit he recognized the two cannon switches which were, apparently, similar to the Lightning's and smashed them into the on and live position. He then closed to less than two hundred yards and opened fire in a long continuous burst. The A4 literally disintegrated in front of him and he flew through and, luckily, survived the fireball!
I have no idea what he "felt" afterwards. John was killed in a mid-air collision not long after returning from the Falklands so he won't be able to tell you in person.
I doubt you will get much response regarding this question from real fighter pilots who have shot down and killed real people. It is hardly an emotional response most of us would like to talk about. I heard someone once said that killing another human being is the ugliest thing you will ever do and, from my point of view, this is pretty close to the truth.
ES

[Edmund Spencer]

Jualbo,
I was just re-reading your post regarding 1st Lt Mario Callego the other day.
It would be interesting to hear a bit more from his perspective.
I had just shot at Raul Diaz, seen his Mirage hit and catch fire and descend towards the hills near Pebble Island. I remember being surprised that Raul, apparently, was taking so long to eject and my attention was quite focussed on his aircraft. I saw the ejection sequence start seconds before impact with the appearance of the orange parachute being pulled out by the bullet but at that very moment I saw Callego flying almost directly underneath me heading west. I slammed to full power and gave chase and even had a missile lock but my speed was quite low by that stage and with Callego quickly accelerating away I was well out of range.
It would be interesting to hear what Callgo saw, if anything. I would be surprised if he didn't see Raul's Mirage on fire and possibly me as well.
If I had seen him a bit earlier I might have been able to accelerate and lead turn to get a shot off. I certainly had the fuel at that stage.
Is there any way of contacting Mario?
ES

[Double Zero]

I hope the recent passing of Lt.Cdr Rod 'Fred' Frederiksen has been noted among your good selves ( of all 'sides', FAA, RAF, Argentinian etc ).

[Edmund Spencer]

Thanks DZ.
It was indeed noted and with great regret.
ES

[Reestini]

Thank you for the information you supplied. I admired Leeming's response to the newspaperman that day, and I am sad to hear of the midair. I will add him to my list of fellow aviators that I keep in my prayers.
Reestini

[jualbo]

Hi Edmund:
I also really would like to talk to Callejo and think we can get it. I´ll try to put an advertisment in Zona Militar Falklands foro.
But I have some doubts. Just yesterday I found a testimony of this mission from 1st Lt Musso. One of Callejo´s fellows in Plata flight. And although I thought he had returned by other way together Cap Dellepiane I´m not actually sure about it:
http://www.informeaeronautico.com/DE...6/Default.aspx (http://www.informeaeronautico.com/DETALLENOTAS/tabid/65/selectmoduleid/404/ItemID/3273/reftab/36/Default.aspx)

In spanish (it´s a kind of interview):
- Una vez tiradas las bombas, había que volver a la base…
(once bombs were dropped, then you have to return to base.....)

Llegué a ver a varios infantes con misiles antiaéreos portátiles, y pensé: ‘Acá me pegan’. Empecé a hacer virajes para un lado y para el otro, convencido que me iban derribar.
(I could see some infantry men armed with MANPADS and thought "Here I´m going to be hit" " I started a serie of turnings from side to side, convinced to be downed)
Después de un momento de estar yendo para todos lados, miro el rumbo y me doy cuenta que estaba orientado hacia el Este, para Africa. Me calmé un poco, puse rumbo al continente y empecé a volar rasante.
(After a moment of being turning to everywhere, I looked my course and realized to be heading to the east,towards Africa. I kept calm a little, headed to the mainland and started a skirmishing flight profile)
Pasé al lado de dos fragatas que le dispararon a mi compañero, Callejo. Pasado ese momento, pude ascender y llegué a San Julián tranquilo. Al rato llegaron los otros dos aviones. Una vez en tierra vi que mi avión tenía toda clase de impactos de proyectiles.
(I passed by two frigates that had shot my fellow Callejo. After this moment, I could go up and arrived San Julian in calm. Shortly afterwards the other two planes landed. once in land I saw my plane had numerous hits of bullets)


So it seems that Musso also returned alone and by a northern route as he saw the two frigates (In fact Broadsword+Coventry). If he returned home before Callejo, and by a similar route, may be he´s our man!!!!!
It´s puzzling. I also would like to hear from Dellepiane.
Cossmicommet (who also writes in Zona militar forums) knows Musso (now a civilian pilot) but it seems he doesn´t talk a lot about Falklands.

About Callejo´s testimony I would say that he didn´t saw anything over Pebble island. He was probably looking to his right hand (as it was the place where the frigates had fired at him) and all action you lived was just on his left side.
Captain Díaz describes that just after being downed and lying in land he saw a Dagger overflying him. So if he had landed, the crash had happened moments before when the fourth Dagger had not still overflown the zone what would explain not to see the explosions of your Sidewinder hitting and the subsequent crash.
Callejo was flying supersonically after being attacked by a SAM from the two frigates. One bomb from his plane didn´t drop during the attack and think (not sure) that one of his external fuel tanks had also problems to be jettisoned. He says that just over Jason islands he noted to be flying supersonically.
By the way, Callejo says that planes in his flight had fired his guns during the attack so theywere probably empty when crossed you.

I hope this info to be useful.

Regards

[jualbo]

I´ve also re-read your previous post and think that Díaz saw the second Dagger of Plata while he was lying over ground.The first one, according to your description, had just passed while Díaz was still hanging in the air.
The key would be to know who passed first, Callejo or Musso?. Although Musso landed before, perhaps he passed by Callejo during his return, over the ocean. It´s probable that if Callejo had spent a lot of fuel (it seems he afterburnered), he would have gone up higher and adopt a lower speed to save fuel, so he could be passed by over the ocean.
And still don´t have Dellepiane testimony. More surprises still awaiting?
Regards

[Edmund Spencer]

Jualbo,
Thank you for your two posts. Very interesting.
One of the things I find hardest to remember is the time line of everything. What actually happens very quickly in real time seems to take for ever when you are actually in combat.
I would say that I saw the Mirage V passing just ahead and below me as I passed through a heading of about south and saw Raul's Mirage impacting the ground out of the corner of my eye. He was going very fast and possibly in AB. I may even have got an IR lock with my remaining sidewinder but I cannot confirm this. I definitely remember looking at the range and knowing instinctively that he was out of missile range and opening rapidly.
So, I think it unlikely that Raul would have landed and seen my target passing over him although the location would have been perfect and I may very well have got the timing slightly wrong in my head.
Best regards
ES

[jualbo]

Hi again Edmund:
Do you remember if Auld saw that fourth plane? According to your words, I think Plata return was made in a southern paralel course to Raton ingress. It would explain that your turn to the right pursuiting Díaz which put you heading south, would face you to Plata´s scape route (90º).
It seems that either Musso nor Callejo, scaped in a similar route. As Díaz saw from ground a Dagger flying home low over him, it would seem it to be the second one, as the first would have passed during his ejection.
Oro ingress route was just north of Pebble island (what explain why Puga fell on sea and Castillo over Horsehoe bay, while Díaz, who made a hard turn to his right trying to avoid your attack, fell southern on the island). At least, the second Dagger had overflown the south of Pebble (to be seen by Díaz) and the first one probably too, as was seen by you over there.
The only explanation for that Dagger to not see the explosion of Díaz plane when hit would be that the pilot was not looking right (in my previous post I thought he was flying northern). The crash had not happened so he couldn´t see it.
I´m just remembering that Callejo told in his testimony in Carballo´s book that he was just entering the bay when listened Mj Puga to shout he had been hit. If Callejo was number 3 in his flight and was entering the bay over Fanning Head, I see more probable that the only Plata capable of being over Pebble when Díaz is downed, must be Musso or Dellepiane. I put the complete testimony of the attack:
-¿Cómo fue el ataque?
(How the attack was?)
Nosotros pasamos bien, me queda la impresión que los Harriers se dedicaron a atacar a los otros tres aviones nuestros. Yo tenía un blanco sobre el puerto, y la flota estaba en la bahía. Apenas aparecimos, nos empezaron a tirar con todo: cañones, misiles, armas portátiles desde tierra… Un infierno.
We passed well, I feel that Harriers concentrated in attacking the other three plane of us (Oro). I had a target over the harbour (Port San carlos), and the fleet was in the bay. We had hardly appeared when they started to fire at us with everything: Guns, missiles, portable weapons from land,... The hell.

Yo vi el puerto, algunas de las cosas que ya habían desembarcado y nada más. Íbamos a 550 nudos. En un momento determinado, Dellepiane (que venía al lado mío) me muestra la panza de su avión, como si estuviera por hacer un viraje. En ese momento veo una cosa blanca que nos pasó por el medio, y era un misil que lanzaron desde tierra. Yo avanzo a mi objetivo, tiro las bombas sobre el puerto (dos bombas de 250 kilos cada una) y trato de salir.
I saw the harbour, some disembarked material and nothing more. I flew at 550 knots. In a determinated moment, Dellepiane (who came side to side), show me his belly, as if he would be to make a turn. in that moment I saw a white thing just passing betwen both of us, it was a missile launched from land. i advanced towards my target, dropped my bombs over the harbour (two 250 Kg each one) and tried to scape.

So, perhaps they went out before than Callejo made, didn´t they? In that case perhaps they passed over Pebble island before than Callejo. It´s a pity not to know about Dellepiane.
Regards

[Edmund Spencer]

I think I can clear up something here, albeit a small point.
According to Raul Diaz, Maj Puga shouted "Oro 3 has been hit by a missile!"
He had looked across the formation to his left and seen Lt Castillo hit by Andy Auld's first sidewinder.
Actually, he was Oro 3 and Castillo was Oro 2!
This caused a moment of confusion and Raul then looked towards Maj Puga only to see Andy Auld's second sidewinder about to hit him. He shouted to him to eject but was too late and saw no reaction from Puga whose Mirage exploded and was engulfed in flames right up to the cockpit.
I doubt Puga would have had the time to transmit that he had been hit. Indeed his last transmission was probably that he had seen Castillo hit.
ES

[jualbo]

Puga also saw a Dagger and Harriers when fell to sea after ejecting. Unfortunately he couldn´t recall the exact moment as was shocked.
There was no other Dagger flight in the zone the following day, so Puga also saw a Dagger that flew on 24th may.
Regards

[Mogwi]

Hi Guys,

Just picked up on the thread after dropping out for ages.
Yes, Edmund is right about Lamda compensation in the 9L homing head (a year ago!). It also used a liquid nitrogen cooled Antimony Sulphide seeker, which was able to detect much lower levels (and frequences) of IR radiation. This meant that it could guide onto the heat plume of the exhaust (as apposed to hot metal in the 9G). This, combined with a 360 degree laser fuse ( as apposed to an IR fuse in the G) meant that the warhead went bang in the centre of the airframe no matter what the aspect. It also had a blast-frag warhead with a pyrophoric disc as apposed to the expanding rod of the 9G (if I remember properly). Altogether a much better weapon.

Certainly my second shot on 8th May would have been marginal if I had been carrying Gs.

Fly safe!

[jualbo]

Mogwi, do you mean 8th May or 8th June?
Are you talking about Falklands´war?
Thanks
PS: If you prefer you can answer by PM

[Mogwi]

Sorry you are quite right, I meant 8th June 82

[cosmiccomet]

First Lieutenant (R) Ricardo Lucero was killed in a Piper PA-11/12 while he was spreading corn or soya fields in Cordoba, Argentina.

During the Malvinas/Falkands war he was flying A4C Skyhawk.
In May 25th while his formation was attacking the British fleet in San Carlos, his airplane was shotdown just before lunching his bombs.
He could eject from his damage Skyhawk at very high speed and low altitude.
Due to the ejection he suffered severe injuries in his legs.
The British rescue him and he was famous because when he was over the Fearless deck he was film while screaming due to his pain.

He looked like a Peruvian for the British so during a while they thought that Peruvian pilots were fighting in our side.

He always mentioned the very correct traitment he had received during his captivity.
He was saved by the British Navy because with his two legs injured he could not swim or walk.
He used to say that he was lucky to be shotted down in the middle a fleet.

After the war he was retired due to injuries in his ears.

Anyway, he continued flying glaiders and ag-planes.

[ARXW]

Apologies, if this has been posted before but here's an interesting short clip from the 1 May attack on Stanley. You can see the Sea Harrier pilots planning the raid. Dave Morgan can be seen, Rod Frederiksen, Mike Blissett with Ted Ball (who's talking about cluster bomb attacks etc) and during the attack, Argentine film of a Sea Harrier rushing in over the runway like a bat out of hell, then zooming up like an angel! ;)
YouTube - Harrier First Strike on Port Stanley 1982 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YuFCtKoHCs)

[TEEEJ]

ARXW,

Are you referring to the sequence at 02:40? That appears to be an outgoing Argentine SAM? Tigercat or Roland?

TJ

[Mogwi]

Yep, I can confirm that it was a Tigercat fired after Bertie Penfold from the area of Stanley town. It crossed my nose about 500m ahead as I ran in to deliver my CBUs.

[Navaleye]

Jualbo,

Your link below is indeed a picture of the attack on Glasgow. Coventry was attached from the port side. Glasgow was attacked from the starboard. Interesting picture I had not seen it before. Thank you.

Skyhawk a punto de atacar al HMS Glasgow on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/25062883@N05/3103041615/)

[TEEEJ]

Mogwi,

Thanks for the confirmation. Apologies for the late reply.

TJ

[jualbo]

Hello all:
I found some info about the place in which 1st Lt Ardiles Dagger fell. It seems that was found .
On 3rd may, the H-93 Chinook took off from Darwin at 10:30. They found the wreck of Ardiles' plane at 11:00 in 52º04' S 58º26' W. After landing they dug in the ground without success to find the cockpit, the ejection seat or the pilot. They returned at 13:15. The coordinates seems to be placed in the north of Lively island.
Also on that day, but in an unknown hour, two IA-58 Pucará flown by 1st Lt Fassani and Lt Giménez made a reco flight from Darwin. They explored Choiseul Sound, Lively Island, Sea lions island, George island and came back to Darwin by the same route. In one of Choiseul Sound´s islands they saw a dingy and a signal mark. They orbited trying to make a better observation. One of them went up to act as a radio station with their base as they couldn´t make a radio contact flying at low level. Once they got it, they returned. The pilots were asked by the intelligece officer in Darwin, 1st Lt Basilio, as well as by the Commander in chief Lt Cdr Pedrozo who ordered the inmediate take off of a Bell 212 with the intelligence officer and some personnel that found nothing. After a second debriefing, Fassani himself offered to go in the helo, but this second attempt was unsuccesfull again. Opposite to the island there was a kelper settlement called Walker Creek. Argentineans thought that the signal mark was probably from british commandoes to guide aircrafts. Here the sources says that some parts from Ardiles plane had been previously taken from this zone and carried to Darwin.
There is a sortie of a Bell 212 (H-83) from Darwin at 16:00, returning at 17:00, but not a second one. There are no more flights from helos from Darwin that day after this one.
On 6th may there is a report of a 601 Commando Company platoon visiting Lively island and founding two fuel tanks STILL burning believed from Ardiles' plane.
On 7th may, the H-93 Chinook took off at 13:20 from Darwin to look for the crash site. During the aproach they saw a british helo that scaped to sea. Then, they landed and began to dig where some parts of the plane were but couldn´t find any piece of the cockpit nor the pilot. They came back to Darwin at 14:25. Then they took off again at 16:50 with a high officer on board, Lt Cdr Aranda, to look for the cockpit, seat or clothes, but nothing was found. They returned to Darwin at 17:35.


Source: Historia de la Fuerza Aérea Argentina. Tomo VI. Volumen 1

[Edmund Spencer]

Jualbo
My humblest apologies for a very long delay in reply.
I don't know if Andy Auld saw the fourth mirage.
After my attack on Raul Diaz I am guessing I was heading approximately south and Andy Auld had probably slipped into a sort of fighting wing on my left side. I was definitely still at full power but had probably lost a bit of speed by pulling almost maximum g into the turn against Raul. I may have reduced power a bit as I seem to remember slamming again to max and rolling inverted and pulling as hard as I could to follow the fourth target. He was very fast and nothing I could do would accelerate my harrier fast enough to achieve a firing solution.
I had apparently called "Counter Starboard - Go" on the radio which Andy Auld took to believe he was under attack!
In retrospect I doubt that I ever had a weapon solution in the cockpit as I never even considered firing my remaining AIM9L.
This would have taken me into a hard turn to the west and I think Andy would have ended up in trail or perhaps on my starboard echelon.
I really do not know if he had visual contact with my target.
I remember unloading to zero g and accelerating as best I could and chasing for a few seconds but it was quickly obvious I was well out of weapon parameters.
ES

[Edmund Spencer]

Here is another aside which I would like to add to the thread.
During the combat on 8 June I flew at very high speed very close to one of the pilots in a parachute that Dave Morgan had just shot down.
It is a fleeting memory but I think it was on my left side by about fifty metres or so. I was doing in excess of 600 knots so it was just a flash of memory.
I seem to remember a few days later doing another CAP in the same area and hearing a distressed call in Spanish on the military guard frequency.
I always wondered if this was the same fellow in his dinghy or stuck on a remote island somewhere.
Can anyone add any information to this?
There is no doubt I passed someone in a parachute. Has his body ever been recovered?
I know that all the guys we shot down on that day perished. However, I most definitely saw one of them in a parachute.
ES

[TEEEJ]

ES,

The ejection history website have the entry listed as 'Alferez Vazquez unsuccessfully ejected and was killed'


Argentina (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Country-By-Country/Argentina.htm)

Some sources name Lt Juan José Arrarás. See post #69 by Jualbo.

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/297920-falklands-crash-sites-4.html

'About 8th june downings I´ve always had a doubt. The identity of the ejected pilot (although never found). According to some sources he was 2nd Lt Alfredo Vázquez while others say he was Lt Juan José Arrarás.'

It might be worth contacting Mike Bennett as he might have additional info?

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/index.htm

TJ

[R J Kinloch]

A book I read on the Falkland's combat (Long gone so I can't give the title but memory suggests either The Air War for The Falklands or Helicopters over the Falklands) there was a picture that has always intrigued me.

It was an American Pattern 19 tube 2.75 inch rocket pod mounted on a pole horizontally. It was in a built up area and was taken after the end of the war.

Anyone have any idea what it was used for?

Regards

[jimgriff]

TEEEJ
Mike Bennett has not been too well for some time and may not answer your e mail very fast.

[TEEEJ]

Hi Jim,

Sorry to hear that. Wishing Mike a speedy recovery.

TJ

[jualbo]

Hello all again. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
I have new info about Ardiles and Gª Cuerva crash sites. According to the same source than my previous post, some parts from Ardiles plane were found 30 miles SW from Stanley what means (more or less), Swan Inlet and East Cove zone. That makes a south-north course of falling since the moment it was hit. The southern wreck were found in the NE of Lively island while the northern elements appeared in Swan Inlet zone. It´s likely that more pieces had fallen to sea at Choiseul Sound between both places. On 6th may an Argentine Army Puma and an Agusta A-109, landed on Lively island with an Army green beret patrol. They found burnt ground where the plane jettisoned its external fuel tanks but no other parts.
The news about Gª Cuerva points that his plane fell to sea in a position placed between Hookers Pt and Christina Bay.
About the calling in spanish may be various possibilities:
On the night of 13th june a Canberra was downed. Captain Pastrán ejected while captain Casado seems didn´t. Pastrán could get to land in his dinghy and was captured shortly after this. The plane fell to sea close to Fitzroy. Two years ago, a human bone from Casado's body found in the shore in 1986 was identified by DNA techniques. Did he finally eject? Did his body go afloat after crashing?
There were some other missions flown by argentine planes from 8th june to 13th june and many of them were flown in that zone. Perhaps the desperate calling was made by some of those pilots (for example I remember 2nd Lt Delllepiane calling in a desperate way to the tanker to refuel as he was running out of fuel after being hit by small arms when he attacked 3 Brigade HQ on Two Sister on 13th june. He could finally get it and came back safely. Ingress and scape route were however northern).
There were some argentine reco patrols from the ROA (Red de Observadores del Aire) in the zone that send info about air movements. I know some of them could be rescued and others had to surrender to british forces as there was no way to be replenished or relieved.
It would help if you could recall the date in which this call was listened.
The identity of the pilot seen hanging on the parachute:
In my opinion, and after listening Héctor Sánchez's testimony as well as Dave Morgan´s one, he is Lt Arrarás. According to Sánchez the order in the argentine formation when the advertisment to attack the Foxtrot-4 was made, was as follows:
Number one: Bolzán
Number two: Arrarás
Number three: Vázquez
Number four: Sánchez
Sánchez kept a paralel course to you on your left and remained unseen, so the interception was made in the third step of the formation. He saw you in his right. According to Morgan he wanted to down in first place the pilot that had hit the LCU. He was the pilot that had attacked in second place (Arrarás). But he then saw another pilot closer and in the left rear of the second one, so changed his mind and attacked him the first (this pilot, according to Sánchez's order, is number 3, Vázquez) . After shooting down him, then Morgan went for his initial target. This is the one that ejects. His body was never recovered.
Do you remember if the pilot seen by you hanging on his parachute, seemed to be conscious? According to Morgan he just saw him in an horizontal position and have doubts about it. Although some sources points to the contrary, Morgan confirmed that the parachute was not in flames.
The rocket launcher that R J Kinloch asks for, was placed in a slide in Goose Green and was used against british paratroops on 28th may. Exists a photo of this. Argentineans also placed a rocket launcher in a track that day. They were Pucara rocket launchers.
Edmund, did you advance in your investigations on "Plata" flight pilots? Musso and Callejo are both good candidates to be your fourth plane as scaped overflying Pebble island. Díaz remembers watching a Dagger flying over him after falling to land with his parachute. Captain Dellepiane (a familiar from the 2nd Lt I told you previously in the post) was the leader in the flight and have not info about his returning route.
According to Callejo, they saw two Skyhawks going out from San Carlos when they were ingressing there, but according to the timetables from FAA webpage the closer skyhawks to do that ("Jaguar" flight, 3 A-4C: 1st Lt Vázquez, Lt Bono and 2nd Lt Martínez), attacked theorically around ten minutes before Plata arrived, so it´s likely to be Sea Harriers and not Skyhawks what they really saw. May be you? Although the book I´ve previously talked about says that Plata overflown Port San Carlos at 11:07 and Oro was downed at 11:04, I suspect both times are wrong as Dagger´s missions from San Julián invariably lasted 2 hours and 40 minutes and were made without refuelling. And the same source, as well as others I have, put the taking off at 10:20 and 10:22 respectively and the landing at 13:00, so mid time is aproximately 11:40 and the most likely to be at San Carlos. The History of Argentine Air Force also says that Plata attacked with 2 CAP over Falkland Sound.
Estimated times at San Carlos of different flights that day were:
Chispa 10:40 (2 A-4B from Río Gallegos)
Nene 10:40 (3 A-4B from Río Gallegos)
Halcón 10:45 (3 A-4C from San Julián. Didn´t arrive the target and aborted when were 10 miles north from Dolphin Cape)
Azul 11:00 (4 Daggers from Río Grande)
Jaguar 11:30 (3 A-4C from San Julián. Returned with a 260º course)
Plata 11:40 (3 Daggers from San Julián)
Oro 11:42 (3 Daggers from San Julián intercepted over Pebble island by you)
Another doubt is about the place where Díaz´s plane fell. You say in the south of Pebble island as you saw it marginally exploding and crashing. So over land. But was this wreck found? Many sources point that it was C-419 but I now think it´s C-430 as there are some photos of a wreck with this number.
Puga and Díaz also says that Castillo´s plane fell to sea, 8km off shore, as well as Puga´s. But according to first page link (by TEEJ) two Dagger are claimed to be at NE of First Mt. Two years ago some human rests were found in the zone. Initially confused with Castillo´s they were in fact from Lt Volponi (whom some other rests were found in 1982). Is the second place in First Mt from the same Dagger (Volponi´s one)? Or perhaps is Díaz´s C-430 one? Did you see Díaz Dagger´s crash and where it happened? Many authors say C-430 was the plane piloted by Lt Castillo, but I think it was C-419. 1st Lt Posadas (Dagger maintenance responsable in San Julián) in his book claims that Díaz's plane was C-430 while C-419 was Castillo's one and C-410 Puga's.
I found this old article about one SHar pilot at Falklands :-)
http://books.google.es/books?id=itUDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=pilots+found+falklands+1983&source=bl&ots=WIPrGXrm76&sig=QdMaw0omPpS7DcsaPrc_LTyWLPU&hl=es&ei=XC9KTMW_C5mg4QbLzvCkAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CE4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Regards
PS: ES, I send you a PM
PS2: Do you know something about the circumstancies in which captain García's body was found in his dinghy at Golding island in 1983?

[PabloCalcaterra]

Jualbo
Regarding Garcia' remains, please read Los Halcones no se LLoran. All the details are there.

Clearly C-430 was flown by Diaz, as he was the only one that "landed" on the island and his was the only plane of the section that crashed there.

Regretfully, all books written so far, based on Argentine official (but incorrect) information have the serial numbers crossed.

Regards
Pablo

[albatross]

Re: Number four: Sánchez
Major Hector Sanchez was CASO ( Chief Air Staff Officer ) at UNIKOM on the the Kuwait Iraq border when I was there flying Bell 212's for the UN in the mid 90's
http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missions/past/unikom/UN
Great fellow and a true gentleman.

[Edmund Spencer]

Jualbo.
Very comprehensive post. Many thanks.
Thank you also, Pablo.
I will try to answer your questions in order.
I cannot remember precisely when I heard the distress calls on 'guard'. But I am fairly certain it would have been only a couple of days after the action.
The parachute was definitely not on fire but I regret I really cannot remember if the pilot was alive or conscious. I guess he would have had his hands on the risers if he was alert and conscious. This would be the normal picture of someone in a parachute and I don't remember anything different. It was only a fleeting glance for me. I saw him incredibly late and didn't even have time to react. The light was failing quite fast and there was a lot of low cloud and precipitation around making the visibility variable at best.
I haven't progressed my investigation with the 'Plata' pilots.
After I chased the "fourth" mirage for about two minutes in a westerly direction we knocked it off and Andy Auld and I reformed and went back to our original CAP station to the north of the Falkland Sound for a short period until we ran low on fuel and had to return to HMS Hermes. We would have been over the West Falklands at the end of the combat and the heading back to the CAP station would probably have been NE. We certainly would not have been seen exiting the San Carlos area.
The exact time of our action against 'Oro' will be difficult to ascertain. The 'D' onboard the picket ship would probably have kept a log.
Navaleye, can you help here?
I can confirm without absolutely no doubt that Oro 2 flown by Lt Carlos Castillo in C419 was flying to the left of Raul Diaz and was the first to be hit by Andy Auld's first missile. The aircraft exploded over the sea well to the north of Pebble Island. Major Luis Puga was flying as Oro 3 in C410 was on the right. His aircraft was also destroyed in an explosion and fell into the sea.
I quote from the extraordinary email that Raul Diaz sent me a couple of years ago:
"I was the leader and it took to Leutenan Carlos Castillo like numeral 2 and Mayor Luis Puga like numeral 3.
Castillo flew to my left and Puga to my right."
Allan White, who owns the Pebble Island Lodge, has sent me photographs of Raul's C430 wreckage and I can clearly see the "C430" on the left hand side of the fuselage just forward of the cockpit. I will publish it here when I get the time.
There is, apparently, other wreckage in the same spot but we think this may be the aircraft shot down my Martin Hale on 25th May?
It is still interesting to speculate on why Cuerva fired his cannons in a long continuous burst when he was flying towards the airfield and directly over Stanley. (Apparently kids were picking up the shell casings as they fell!)
I should be very surprised if this was a weight reducing strategy. We were very weight conscious in the harrier for hover performance and I might have considered getting rid of external stores and pylons and fuel etc but I would never have thought about firing my cannons. (Perhaps I should!)
I guess I am still trying to figure if his mirage had in fact been damaged by Steve Thomas' missile.
ES

[albatross]

Does anyone have a contact for Hector?
If so please PM me.

[Edmund Spencer]

Albatross, I think Mogwi might be able to assist. Try giving him a PM.

[Santiago Rivas]

Hi Guys, I been out of this thread for a long time. I'm happy to see that it's still alive.
Regarding the four "Mirage" Edmund recalls, and according to what I talked with Mario Callejo told me, he was who was leaving San Carlos with his Dagger at the moment you shot down the Oro flight. He escaped alone after his attack and after heading north over the Sound he turned west as soon as he reached the northest end of West Falkland, at the same time Oro flight was being intercepted close to Pebble Island. Then he saw a frigate to the north (Broadsword or Coventry) who fired a missile upon him, so he put the afterburner and jetissoned the fuel tanks, he turned right to face the missile and after avoiding it he turned left and headed to the islands passing over Pebble Island.
Albatross, I just send you a message with Hector's contact

Best regards

Santiago

[Edmund Spencer]

Santiago.
I am not sure if this would work with the timeline. We were under the direct control of HMS Coventry and HMS Broadsword at the time so I think it unlikely they would have launched a missile into the middle of our combat!
The next day we were vectored against the attack that eventually sunk the Coventry and were very firmly hauled off and ordered to turn away when they thought they were "Birds Affirm!"
Absolutely ghastly feeling when the raid got through. I felt sick to the core.
I wonder what Nelson would have done under the circumstances?
ES

[jualbo]

Edmund, Brown confirms this lauching from HMS Coventry on 24th may in his book "The Royal Navy and the Falklands War".
But the BOI of HMS Coventry doesn´t seem to show it although some lines are still censoured:
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/F5811078-B4DB-42B9-8D3E-47BFB86D4B50/0/boi_hms_coventry.pdf
Look at page 18 of the pdf document (page 11of the BOI itself)

Regards

[PR01]

Sorry to come in to this about 2 years late, have only just today discovered your network. I am ex-Navy, though not an aviator. I can confirm Skyhawk on South Jason was C313, an A4-C of FAA Grupo 4. I was on a Naval Det from HECATE 18 October 1982, sent ashore to investigate wreckage we had seen from our Wasp, whilst on survey ops locally. We located and identified the remains of pilot Lt Jorge Cascos, who we then buried. He has since been reburied at the main Argentine cemetery, Darwin, after his family had a DNA test done in Argentina. This reburial was done, only as recently as 7 March 2009, with members of his family present. I personally discovered the bomb, a sight I shall not forget, as I virtually stumbled into it, as it was surrounded by tallish 'tussock' grass. We concluded in our report (and we were not qualified crash investigators) that one possible cause of the crash could well have been striking the steep and rocky hill side in poor visibility. I still have a summary of the report in my possession, (together with the altimeter).
Paul R

[jualbo]

Hello Paul and wellcome
Very interesting. Did you remember any evidence of C-303 plane (Lt Farias) in the zone?
In my opinion they had to suffer an air collision, C-313 crashing in South Jason while C-303 fell to sea, probably not far from there. What do you think?
Thanks

[PR01]

Hello Jualbo
Thank you for your response on this most sad, yet for me personally, very memorable subject. It is good to talk. Yes, I have only recently been aware that Lt Jorge Farias, (perhaps Jorge Casco's 'wing man'?) in A-4C Skyhawk C-303, was also lost on the same day. What you suggest, an air collision, is also a possibility that I had not considered and we certainly did not consider at the time of our investigation in October 1982, as we had no knowledge onboard our Hydrographic ship then, of Jorge Farias' existance, or indeed precisely what date Jorge Casco crashed.

We identified poor Jorge Casco from a small engraved aluminium tag and a pink signed certificate in his flying overalls. His name was also found on a 'dynotape' label stuck onto his helmet. I remember at the time, that for a few minutes we thought there had been two aircrew in this plane, because I found what I thought were the remains of two flying helmets. Jorge Casco's helmet was no longer attached to him, but some 30 metres away from him, as I recall. I then found another white 'helmet' very close by, this time of a slighly thinner and smaller construction, which initially gave us a shock, but when we matched the two together, we concluded we were probably only looking at an inner and outer shell of the same helmet. I stress at this particular moment, we had not yet reached the main part of the aircraft wreckage and we had no idea at this stage what we were looking at, that is, what type of aircraft or how many aircrew it would normally carry.

About 1 year ago, I came across a South Atlantic News Agency (Merco Press) website with a current press release about Jorge Casco's reburial at the Darwin cemetery, as described earlier. This press release also linked to an actual photograph of Jorge Casco carrying out in flight refuelling on the day of his crash, 9 May. I then went to the FAA website for my first time. This website I am sure you are familiar with. Here I can now add a new twist to the story. In the FAA website page entitled 'Memoria de Caidos' (Coflicto de Malvinas), there are details together with photographs of aircrew lost. When I saw photographs of the two Jorges, (Jorge Eduardo Casco and Jorge Ricardo Farias), I was quite shocked, as I immediately recognised the man we identified as Jorge Casco, but his photograph was inset with the details of Jorge Farias and not Jorge Casco.

Like the bomb, the visual memory of who we buried that day, is engraved on my mind. I can only assume who ever pasted the information together on the FAA's web pages, got the two photos incorrectly attached. I hope this is the case. Not wishing to offend anyone, I have in fact since written to the FAA mentioning this as I feel memorial records should be as accurate as possible. I also wrote for personal reasons, I wished for them to try and pass a letter to Jorge Casco's family.
In answer to your original question Jualbo, most of Jorge Casco's A4C was identifiable, albeit spread over an area of about 150metres wide by 500-700 metres long. Undercarriage (light blue) parts quite close to bomb, both being at the east end of the crash site, near an almost vertical rock face. (I dragged a piece of 'V' shaped undercarriage a few metres and lined the V up to point at the bomb position for future reference from the air).

Due to spread, we judged angle of impact to the ground to have been shallow and not vertical. Parachute still attached to pilot as I recall and not appearing to have been fully deployed properly. Life jacket attached, torn, with CO2 inflation cylinder undischarged. Pilot's seat not found. Hope this is of help.
Regards
Paul

ps - I have thought hard overnight, googled the island again, and based on the description of what we found and the sort of weather/vis conditions we experienced on some days and knowing that this flight's mission was cut short due to bad weather, I offer the following theory:

... that C313 came in low and fast on a WSW heading, more or less in line with the islands position line ie around 240/250 to 060/070 degrees, he may or may not have come out of low cloud suddenly, having a a base of no more than perhaps 100-150 feet, which would have obscured the sharp and precipitous peaks of the ENE corner of the island. This was unfortunate, for clear sea lay close by north and south. He may or may not have seen a solid wall of rock before him, rising up into the cloud.

Either way, I think he just clipped a slightly lower ridge on the north side of the main highest ridge running along the island's centre. This might explain the bomb and undercarriage found at the NE corner of the crash site, just below the lower ridge mentioned. The rest of the aircraft then appears to have been thrown beyond this point impacting at a shallow angle and breaking up along a narrow stretch some hundreds of metres long. Turbine blades scattered over relatively small area, suggesting engine still intact until impact? Similarly, 20mm cannon and rounds scattered in small area. Fusalage and cockpit instrument panel (including joystick), separated from each other, but clearly identifiable. Wings not so recognisable as mostly in small pieces. Evidence of scorched rock surface/burning of grass.

When I think about it, I suppose all of this tends to point to single aircraft incident rather than mid air collision? Agian, hope this is helpful ...
Regards
Paul

[jualbo]

Hello again Paul:
A really interesting history. I send you a pm.
Many thanks for this info.
It would be great if after this time there is a posibility to find the remains of Jorge Farias.
I found in INTERNET that perhaps the second A-4C wreck is shallow waters around South Jason.
HMS Coventry (D118) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Coventry_%28D118%29)
Coventry's captain, Hart-Dyke claims that two A-4C Skyhawks of Grupo 4 were shot down by the Sea Darts, but Aircraft (C-303 and C-313) were lost in bad weather, with both wrecks found on South Jason Island. One on the Northwest side of the cliffs, the other in shallow waters on the SouthWest. Lt Casco and Lt Farias were both killed.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Coventry_%28D118%29#cite_note-4)

[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Coventry_%28D118%29#cite_note-4)^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Coventry_%28D118%29#cite_ref-4) Falklands Air War, Chris Hobson / Historia Oficial de la Fuerza Aérea Argentina, Volume 6 / Air War in the Falklands, Christopher Chant

PD: Paul, the body you found, was inside the cokpit or outside on the sorrounding ground? According to you explanation it seems the pilot had tried the ejection. Was he buried at Darwin?
Although perhaps seems a macabre question, was the body completed? I know it was 5 months since the accident when you arrived to Jason island. According to the info I could collect, 4 bones were found in 1999 (the ones buried in 2008). There is a photo of the helmet which was given to the family during the burial at Darwin
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/9554/cascovuelottecasco.jpg (http://img828.imageshack.us/i/cascovuelottecasco.jpg/)

[PR01]

Jualbo, if I may, I will speak only in general terms in this forum, but will also try and email you shortly. As I recall, pilot remains were within 100 metres or so of the cockpit remains, but definately not in the same place, however it is my opinion that an ejection attempt had probably not been possible. I had not seen your picture before, so seeing the helmet again was interesting.
Paul

[The Claw]

Hi Folks,

Can anyone possibly give me any information on this lifeboat which was beached at Port William Sound?

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7715/imgnlh.jpg

[jualbo]

Hello The Claw:
Which date is the photo? Are you sure it´s during the war?
I undestand that Port William Sound is the Sound just north from the inlet of Port Stanley airport. Not far from that zone, during the last night of combats there was a failed SAS mission with boats trying to disembark just west from Stanley Harbour bay.
Perhaps it´s from this. Or some insertion of forward artillery observators for NGS.

[The Claw]

Hi Jualbo.

The photo was taken after the war(1983), and the boat was allegedly booby trapped by the Argentinians during the war.

[Edmund Spencer]

PR01 - Paul
Many thanks for your contribution to this thread.
Did you get the chance to investigate any other of the crash sites?
ES

[Fareastdriver]

At first glance I thought the rocks on the left was a mouldering Wessex.

[sycamore]

PR01,if you `google earth` for S Jason,and go in close you will probably see `Panoramio` pictures of the island ,taken along the Ridgeline.There is another one taken by Darrin42`,on the NW side called `West view`, which shows a piece of aircraft wreckage,looks a little like a stores carrier,or possible wing section.Position.51.12..19.78S 60.53..45.04W at about 74m elevation.About 250 m further East appear to be possible`unusual objects` between 97-120m elevation..I did recce the area in `93` but only from a Herc.

[The Claw]

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5372/img0002zx.jpg

Can anyone shed some light on this photo taken in Port Stanley area?

[PR01]

Hello Edmund
Afraid not any others in that sort of detail. However, we visited South Georgia several times during our deployment in '82-83 and I climbed over the remains of a Puma I think, that was downed by our Marines at Grytviken. Also saw farely close up, the beached submarine (Santa Fe?), the conning tower of which ENDURANCE's Wasp had managed to put an AS12 through. One of our salvage tugs subsequently tried to tow it out to scuttle in deep water, but it sank on tow near the entrance to Grytviken. We also took some BAS scientists back to Shackleton House, Grytviken. I was privilaged to share a cabin with Bob Headland for a while, who had surrendered South Georgia to the Argentines after the Marine det from ENDURANCE (Officer I/C Lt Keith Mills) were overwhelmed after putting up a damn good fight, in which they downed the Puma and put a hole in a Corvette to boot. Bob Headland did the parle-ing at the surrender, because he " ... was the only one amongst the Brits there who spoke any Spanish ... !". When I last saw a mention of Bob in a Daily Telegragh article a few years back, he had become the Director of British Antarctic Survey - Cambridge. He was/is a great guy, for whom I built up a tremendous respect.
Regards
Paul

[PR01]

Hello Sycamore - Yes I have just seen that 'West View' a few days ago and have referred this to Jualbo via email. That's the place alright, brought back memories too I can tell you, it was high up, around 180 metres I think, when looking at the contour map. Yes I did wonder what that spherical light brownish piece in the foreground was. If only we'd had someone like you on the ground with us that day, rather than just us bunch of clumsy matelots stumbling about tripping over large green UXBs and the like... Well, I guess we did our best under the circumstances.
Many thanks though.
Regards
Paul

[PR01]

Sycamore - Further to my last, we may differ a little on elevations. I've rechecked my original report notes and I have a pos of 51 12'.3 South 060 53'.1 West. This I remember taking from a chart, together with a couple of hand bearings from peaks. We didn't have GPS then(!), although we were trialling some commercial 'heavy steam powered GPS kit' of some sort, but this was fixed onboard HECATE. Hydrographic shore party mobile kit called a 'Geoceiver' was in use but not by us that day. It weighed a ton, needed heavy batteries and required several satellite passes between 30 and 70 degrees elevation I think, there wern't too many satellites then and corrections had to be applied etc I believe. (I wasn't a qualified 'droggie' either!). Any rate, your GPS fixes may well be slightly different than my plot on the day. Also, wreckage was spread over several hundreds of metres roughly ENE -WSW. My plot puts things about 200m south and 500m or so east of GPS, entirely possible within accuracy of original survey and Easting diifference explicable by wreckage spread. Incidentally, using the 'geoceiver', we proved South Georgia to be about half nautcal mile out from the original chart survey done by Captain Cook no less. Now he had some pretty crude kit, a very basic sextant etc, if not indeed a simple 'backstaff', although I will readily stand corrected if required by a properly qualified 'droggie. I'm thinking Capn James Cook didn't do a bad job after all ... despite the fact that he had been trying to find Antarctica at the time when he bumped into South Georgia instead.
Paul

[PR01]

Hello Claw -Your photo is of the Naval memorial at San Carlos Water. We paid our respects to it when surveying nearby in Autumn 1982. This was built specefically for the men lost on ANTELOPE and ARDENT.
Paul

[The Claw]

Many thanks PRO1 :ok:

[PR01]

sycamore - A slight side step here from the usual, but would you be able to throw any light on the mid air collision involving a Herc and a Navy Sea King, some 50nm North of Pebble Is, I think it was 1986, possibly June?
All 4 Sea King aircrew were lost and I understand the Herc limped back to Stanley with a signifcant chunk of its wing missing, I heard 20', is that possible? The Sea King co-pilot was a mate of mine, we'd served on a Northern Ireland patrol boat together.
It sounded like our old friend - low thick weather with a choppy sea giving a mush on radar. Believe the Sea KIng attached to an RFA had been sent to investigate a factory fishing ship but clobbered the Herc at around the the point where thier patrol line 50-200nm started.
Any info at all would be very much appreciated.
Paul

[jualbo]

Hello all:
Here it´s a link to a webpage with photos with two Dagger crash sites (C-430 and C-437) at Pebble island:
Caída de Volponi - Foros Zona Militar (http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/malvinas-1982/27786-caida-de-volponi.html#post1046712)

Regards all

[Wander00]

Sea King/Herc earlier than Jun 86 - I arrived in Jan 86 and it had occurred earlier than that I think

[sycamore]

PR01, abject apologies for not picking up on your earlier request; I`m trying to contact `Scroggs` the Mod,as he was doing the Airbridge and may have further details.One of the pilots of the S-K was an ex stude of mine from RNEFTS..

[Edmund Spencer]

J.
I don't read Spanish but it looks like the contributor thinks Castillo was in C430. This is not so. The wreckage on Pebble Island was Raul Diaz' C430.
Both Castillo (C419) and Puga (C410) went down in the sea well to the north of the island.
Best regards

[jualbo]

Hi Edmund:
You´re right. He thought it was as you said, but I explained him the same than you´ve wroten. By the way, the photo with a turbine inside the fouselagge and the port wing joined, is from C-430 or from C-437? There is another one where a turbine is seen alone. Is it the same canibalished or it´s from the other Dagger?

Regards

[Kilonovember52]

27 June – An RAF (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force?qsrc=3044) Lockheed Hercules C.1P (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Lockheed_C-130_Hercules?qsrc=3044), XV206, of 1312 Flight, and a Royal Navy (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Royal_Navy?qsrc=3044) Westland Sea King HAS5 (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/SH-3_Sea_King?qsrc=3044), XZ919, helicopter of 826 Naval Air Squadron (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/826_Naval_Air_Squadron?qsrc=3044), collide in cloud north of the Falkland Islands (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands?qsrc=3044), at around 300 ft (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Foot_(length)?qsrc=3044). The Hercules lost the wing beyond its #1 (port outer) engine but still managed to land. The Sea King, based at RNAS Culdrose (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/RNAS_Culdrose_(HMS_Seahawk)?qsrc=3044), was lost and all four on board killed.



Thursday,27 June 1985


FAA, 826b Squadron, Seahawk, flying Sea King operating from RFA, air crash in Falkland Islands
HAYES, Duncan I A, Lieutenant (P), C027691E
RODWELL, Simon J, Lieutenant (P), C026512T
SIMPSON, Robert C, Lieutenant Commander, C021831U
SUMMERS, Paul C, Leading Aircrewman (O), D187469P

See also:

Two mid-air collisions [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-285755.html)

[PR01]

sycamore and kilonovenber52 - Many thanks for this information re mid air Herc/RN Seaking 27 Jun 85. Can I ask, in ORAC's blog, what does 'IMC' mean? I am but a simple sailor here... so please hit me around the head with the blindingly obvious .... Re RN aircrew lost, Simon Rodwell was the pal I referred to earlier...

[India Four Two]

PRO1,

IMC = Instrument Meteorological Conditions. Clouds in this case, but can also be low visibility.

Instrument flight rules - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_flight_rules)

[Cornerstone958]

25th May 1982 HMS Coventry RIP
CS

[sycamore]

PR01, Paul,sorry I`d been misinformed about the S-K crew details; I didn`t know any on board that aircraft..Syc..

[PR01]

India Four Two, thanks for making this clearer.
Paul

[nazca_steve]

Hello all,

Open question to all here that have visited the Falklands since the war. Does anyone remember seeing aircraft wreckage around Whale Point? This is the string of small islands and lagoons south of Fitzroy. I can provide a map link if necessary.

I have solid info on this but am curious to know if others know of it, especially from previous years.

Regards to all.

Steve

[davaar lad]

Paul, I remember all too well the accident to which you refer. I was on 826 A Flight and we took over from B Flight on board RFA RELIANT. It was a sad sorry time which was made worse by the fact that we all knew there had been a cock up. It was a rubbish job doing the SOULANT Roulement then towed array patrols up north when we were not down south. It was made easier by the fact that all the guys on A,B and C flights were great guys. I knew Simon well not only did we do some of our flying training together but we also shared the same crew room at 826. The inquiry exonerated the C130 crew of any blame it if I remember rightly the radar operator ashore came in for some criticism.

[hoteljuliet]

I was the Communications Officer on watch onboard RFA Reliant at the time of the incident.

It was a very sad time I will never forget.

I remember that trip was 5 months long, most of it at sea. There was a good team spirit onboard and we had a badminton court in the vessel's hold.

I wrote a poem in B Flt's Line Book, hope it's still there.

Best regards

[Pali]

This is probably one of the finest PPRuNe threads ever. Reading a discussion of once opposing members of armed forces with so much respect and courtesy gave me a lot hope regarding humanity. I will sleep better tonight.

[Marcantilan]

Sorry for resurrecting this old thread.

Just a question, anyone is aware of an Argentine helicopter wreck around or in the vicinity of Port Pleasant ?

Thanks in advance,

[BuddhaXG]

I picked up the Spanish version on Zone Militar, I was the man on the ground you were in contact with, the main group remained in the hills. l and another colleague had come forward to the area we were told you would be using as the firing point. When you fired we were in your 7 o'clock about 200m from you.

I warned you on your approach of two argy helicopters which had taken off from the airport but heading south, you asked if we could cover you which I said we could (although Im sure you thought we had stingers in our belt kit, which we didnt).

You unleashed a storm of artillery and anti aircraft cannon fire which coloured the sky for several minutes but they didnt know exactly where the rockets came from, it was good to see you make a successful escape into the mist.

[Bob Farmer]

I stumbled across this forum after searching for a map of known Argentine aircraft crash sites in the Falkland Islands. I may be barking up the wrong tree but I was stationed in the Falklands in late 1984 and used to spend a lot of time exploring the Goose Green settlement and Argentine positions along Darwin and the far end of the isthmus around the suspension bridge between the main East Island and Lafonia. Just South East of Goose Green I found some aircraft parts on a flat isolated area not far from the bridge and approximately 100m from the shoreline. There was very little visible but I did pick up a section of the tail with a partial Argentine national flag. This was subsequently confiscated onboard the Canberra in March 1985 and thrown into the sea by the RMP doing searches.
I have always wondered if this was a recorded crash site and as a young lad it never occured to me that this may well have been the last resting place of a pilot. Having spoken to a few collector colleagues recently, I wondered if anyone had ever documented a site near Goose Green other than the Pucara of Thomba.
If no one is able to give me any help or has any corroberating evidence, would anyone know who I should report this to?
Kindest regards, Bob

[ARXW]

Hello

there is not much footage of the Falklands War that I haven't watched over the years (or so I thought) but can anyone recognise the incident at 27:09 of the documentary below on the Falklands War? It seems to show a fast mover crashing to the ground.

https://youtu.be/z61-EKA2Nds?t=1629

[Self loading bear]

There is no link

[India Four Two]

Slb,

There is a bug in the software used by PPRuNe. If you can't see the link, click the Quote button at the bottom right and copy the link from the page that shows up.