Two UND Aviation Dept. students die in a crash.

[Ignition Override]

Both the Instructor and her pilot trainee were aviation majors at the University of North Dakota in Grand Forks (GFK).

Two days ago they were on a cross-country flight at night and the Piper Seminole was found in a swamp, either in ND or in Minnesota.

My condolences to their families and friends.

[sevenstrokeroll]

I am sorry to hear this.

Multi Engine instruction can be very dangerous...though this doesn't seem to be in the low altitude engine failure scenario.

I hope you will keep us posted. I would like to know the position of the cross feed valves.

[Ignition Override]

Seven-I noticed nothing last night or today on Internet MSNBC News.
Maybe they prefer to report on paying passengers' deaths. Certainly not very young aviation students.
Incidentally, the "New York Times" posted mention of the only (posthumous for a Navy Seal)) Medal of Honor winner for the Afghanistan conflict way back in the paper's "Metro Section". Not in the main front section!

A jumpseat pilot with us had instructed at least one of the pilots not long ago. He did not speculate on what happened.

[11Fan]

IO,

It made the Seatle Post, her hometown I believe.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420AP_ND_Plane_Missing.html

Sad.

[MikeJ]

One of the saddest statistics in both the US and the UK is that far more students are killed when flying with their instructors than when solo.
In the UK, we had a sad solo student fatal last year, but this was the first since 1987. In the meantime, 16 students had been in fatal crashes with instructors.
What to do about it?

[TheOddOne]

What to do about it?

Firstly, we ned to analyse the causes of these crashes. When I did my FI rating test earlier this year great emphasis was placed on the circumstances surrounding the Southend crash and what steps we all need to take to prevent a recurrence, but no mention was made of any other fatal crashes when an instructor was on board. I guess it might have been seen as a statement of the obvious to say 'fly carefully' or whatever. During the course, we did go through the various scenarios where a student might try and kill you and what to do about it, but not by reference to any particular accident.

When I first started flying, spinning was just being taken out of the PPL syllabus because that was killing instructors and students. Now, such occurrences are thankfully few and far between.

Has anyone a list of these accidents and their causes?

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[Whopity]

One of the saddest statistics in both the US and the UK is that far more students are killed when flying with their instructors than when solo.Hardly surprising when most of the training is conducted DUAL!
Most low houred students are naturally careful.
The issue therefore appears to be instructor related.
Since the introduction of JAR-FCL the experience level of the average ab-initio instructor has fallen compared to the older PPL with 300 hours type candidate. There are no 13 month checks of ability like their used to be and there is no upgrade test to remove the Restriction.
The Southend case illustrates the need to teach go-arounds from anywhere in the circuit; something not commonly taught.

[Crosswind Limits]

Sad news.

A couple of points, as far as I understand, there were 2 fatal solo student crashes last year in UK, Southend and Moreton-in-Marsh.

Secondly, there are only two relevant places to teach a go-around in the circuit, base and final.

[Captain Jock]

I teach go-arounds at various points on final approach right down to the threshold. Anything could happen on the runway at the last minute. All my fellow instructors at our club do the same. We have a responsibility to our students to equip them to deal with any eventuality.

[MikeJ]

Crosswind,
My error, silly me.
My facts were correct only for those fatals with a stall/spin factor, for which, in my opinion, should never happen with an instructor on board.
But the Moreton was a mid-air, and even with those the picture is similar.
The previous 2 times students were killed in a mid-air were both with instructor on board. Near Manston and Reigate.

Interestingly, both of these were on instrument training flights in VMC, where the student cannot see outside, and the instructor is soley responsible for avoidance.

I certainly didnt wish to reopen the Southend case, but only to draw attention that in both UK and US, more students are killed with their instructors than when flying solo, and much more than can be accounted for by the difference in flying hours solo and with instructor.

Mike.

[Whopity]

Secondly, there are only two relevant places to teach a go-around in the circuit, base and final.So what do you do if you are downwind, and there are numerouse aircraft ahead, turning in the wrong place and extending the circuit? you go around from DOWNWIND, or rather you should do!

[Crosswind Limits]

The danger in a go-around is mishandling the airplane at slow speed, while you add power, clean up and climb away. Yes of course you can go-around from downwind but you are unlikely to lose control of the airplane as you are flying level and should have something similar to a cruise power setting (say 2300RPM). Therefore the real danger occurs at base and final when you are slowing down, descending and configuring for landing. That was my point!

As to what you should do downwind that depends on whether it's a controlled airfield or not. In the past I have taught at both. If controlled, you are likely to be told to orbit or extend downwind to create spacing. If uncontrolled, I was taught NEVER to orbit but instead extend downwind with an appropriate RT call and if that didn't resolve the issue, possibly execute a go-around on the dead-side of the circuit. If orbiting or extending was not an option due traffic ahead, then one could always fly at slow safe (with some flap) to create spacing.

[toolowtoofast]

excuse my ignorance, but how do you 'go around' from the downwind?

i would have thought that an orbit was the safest way to create space - extending downwind in an uncontrolled circuit just takes you away from the circuit, possibly resulting in a long slow approach on finals, where you're more likely to be cut off by someone not looking on a short base leg.

[MikeJ]

Woppity and Crosswind,
I had said that I had not intended to reopen the Southend case, which was that of a rare solo student fatal.
But since you keep talking of it, this was NOT a go-around situation.
The lad had flown a text book circuit, turned onto final with correct speed, power, flap, aligned perfectly with the runway. All this was established by analysis of the radar recordings and examination of the aircraft.
After this he was initially instructed to go-around, which I see no reason to suggest that he would not have executed as well as the other parts of the circuit for which he had been trained. That intruction was immediately countermanded by an instruction " Disregard, just turn North". Even I, after 1400hrs would not know in an ATC controlled ATZ whether that was a clearance to climb.
Ther AAIB report is so clear that he died in a situation for which he (nor I) had not been trained. In the circumstances, flying approximately level at 200-300ft he failed to maintain flying speed, his speed progressively decaying into the stall due to his not increasing approach power to that required for level flight.
Analyse it as you wish, but it was not a failed go around. Was it a case of him not being adequately ingrained in the fundamental of: "Whatever else, always keep the aircraft flying"? I don't know.
Mike.

[Crosswind Limits]

Toolowtoofast,

You are technically correct, but if you decide for whatever reason you are not going to land or touch and go, you are effectively doing a go-around.

Orbiting downwind at an uncontrolled airfield was something I was taught never to do and as the advice made sense to me, I taught the same to my students. Orbiting in a controlled environment is different.

It's been almost 18 months since I last instructed so perhaps I am rusty with my airmanship!

Anyway this thread has nothing to do with go-arounds so I am going to refrain from posting any further.

Fly safe.

[Ignition Override]

What is puzzling as we wait weeks or more for the NTSB conclusions is what happened during a cross-country.

It seems unlikely (to me) that the Instructor would have given her student any engine-failure or other such challenges during a night cross-country, unless he had already received training for it. Night flights in much of the Upper Midwest even in perfect VMC near scattered small cities/towns can appear to be almost IMC in many cases. In a few more weeks multiple cloud layers with icing will be quite common.

Never having flown the twin-engine Piper Seminole (and having been away from turboprops for many years), my questions are whether the plane requires you to switch fuel tanks etc. The former (student) IP at the UND who was on our jumpseat claimed that their maintenance was the very best, as I imagine that it must be.

The next night was perfectly clear VMC.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,


I'm not an instructor, I'm a PPL, but I've been keenly interested in flying for some decades. I have always been interested, (albeit as an observer,) in the business of teaching people to fly and in the people who do it.

One thing that struck me when, at the age of 17, I first climbed into a primary glider, was the thought that the person with me, in the right hand (or back) seat must, at least to some extent, be risking his/her neck to teach me to fly. I had previously made simple model aeroplanes from paper and card and had thus seen very many stalls, spins and crashes.

Yet somehow, without any words being exchanged, this idea was being countered by the conflicting impression, conveyed by the instructor, that no matter what mistake I ventured to make he/she would be ahead of me, and would either stop me and take control before I achieved anything spectacular, or would infallably sort out the mess if I did. These conflicting ideas remained with me as I left the world of gliding and moved into powered flight.

Gradually, common sense began to inform me that while for most of the time there might be a large degree of truth in this second impression, this person was nevertheless human and therefore fallible. There would be times when my first idea would definitely prove to be the case.

For this reason, I felt I owed that person a duty to follow his/her instructions instantly and to the letter. I became nit-pickingly, perhaps irritatingly cautious, but I felt I was doing my bit to ensure that this person lived to collect his/her pension.

However, the flying instructor has to be ready to teach anybody who comes through the door with a few shekels in his/her pocket. A student who has no background in flying (not even model aeroplanes,) or who has poor flying aptitude, or who is ham-fisted or naive - or just a bit thick, may be blind to the risks he/she is capable of creating.

As described in paragraph 3 above, instructors always try (quite justifiably) to make the student feel safe and confident. However, I sometimes wonder whether this is being overdone to the point where it is actually creating risks.


Broomstick.

[Ignition Override]

Broomstick Pilot:

The first IP who took me up around 1973 in Kansas City on an intro flight (in a Grumman Trainer) was killed a few years later at KC's Downtown Airport.
This is just a coincidence, but it had been a hazardous airport for very many years. Tall buildings are close by with hills and illuminated towers in the distance. An Electra (L-188) crashed there after a poorly-coordinated non-precision. approach resulted in a missed app and stall due to a ham-fisted pilot.

This could have been hearsay many years ago, but the Grumman student was reportedly a (larger?) guy who might have panicked and held onto the yoke with a deathgrip. I never read the report, but when the plane hit the river dike, the engine was operating and there was no reported news of any aircraft (internal) control problem. It is possible that the student felt overloaded from the location of the airport and possible awareness of problems there.
I always wondered how an Instructor would knock the student pilots' hands loose if this happened :uhoh:.

Those Grumman Trainers were not as gentle when practicing stalls as the good old Cherokee and other single-engine trainers. I should not speculate, but maybe the exposure of the guy to stall training in the Grumman made him a more nervous student?

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Ignition Override,

The incident you describe does seem to have a certain similarity to the sort of scenario I suggested.

As I say, I'm not an instructor, but if I was I think I would probably keep a hat pin in my lapel for just such occasions!

Broomstick.

[fireflybob]

excuse my ignorance, but how do you 'go around' from the downwind?

i would have thought that an orbit was the safest way to create space - extending downwind in an uncontrolled circuit just takes you away from the circuit, possibly resulting in a long slow approach on finals, where you're more likely to be cut off by someone not looking on a short base leg.

Quite simple - you follow the circuit pattern in azimuth but maintain circuit height. Assuming the airfield has a dead side and there are no notified local procedures you proceed from final to the dead side and perform a rejoin.

Although this has been extensively debated in other threads orbiting in a circuit which does not have licensed ATSU is NOT recommended - neither is extending downwind.