Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels [Archive]

Capt Zorro

31st Oct 2007, 10:00

to all you pilots out there,

AsA have decided in their lack of judgement and due to an admission of staff shortages, to cut the midnight to dawn rosters on most groups back to single man, but they have a problem with breaks though.

they have now decided to use say an approach rated person to break one of the area guys "for up to 20 mins to provide a listening watch only and service for emergencies only.., but not actually control.

what a joke, it is like saying to a dash 8 driver, look the 744skipper needs a break for a little while so even though you are a pilot but dont hold a rating on a 744 you can take control for while just to keep a listen out and sort out an emergency, you see my point.

this is in total contravention to CARS part 65. Please post your comments and make a lot of noise.

this is a copy of the circular to ASA ATC staff from one of the managers re the above followed by a cut and paste of the TLI (temp local instruction) from another manager which has since been re written but says same but do not have a copy to hand yet.

ECS SY – ML Information Sheet
17 October 2007
ML TMA

CONTEXT

ATC numbers, Airservices wide, are currently 29 below requirements - ATCs including C& SS. This is reflected in the disruption to services we have been experiencing in the ML FIR. Part of the strategy to handle this staff shortage is to reassess operational requirements. It is no longer sustainable for the organisation to have staff sleeping for up to fours hours on doggos in our current staffing situation. It is also at odds with how the rest of the organisation staffs its night shifts for low traffic positions, Brisbane included. It is not a requirement of the Fatigue Management Policy which states that a 20 minute break is required.

PURPOSE
To advise the ECS ML SY ATCs of the staffing changes and requirements in the room.

OUTLINE OF CHANGES

ECS ML-SY

We are currently training Regional Service controllers on Central trained on YAS/JVS sectors.
After consoles moves on the night of October 29 the Central Roster will be split along the ECS/RS lines:
RS sectors OVN/SNO will take on YAS/JVS – now report to Anne Brownhill and her ALMS
CB TCU and ELW/ BLA will become a combined roster
As part of this split single doggos will be rostered for both Central ECS ML-SY and RS Central
Canberra Group roster commences 11/11. It will contain single doggos.
As SNO/OVN now has YAS/JVS, ELW/BLA rated people cannot provide breaks to SNO/OVNs as they do not have the YAS/JVS training.
From Oct 30 only ECS ML SY staff will be in Aisle 1 – that is CB GP, CB TMA, Central “High” ELW/BLA and ML TMA.
RS

Desert’s new roster commences 26/11. It will contain single doggos

ECS AD-ML

BASS and BAROSSA will transition to single doggos by the end of the year. Exact dates to be advised shortly.
Aisle 2 will rotate the accountability to provide the extra person once all the rosters in that aisle are single manned.

FATIGUE BREAK PROVISION
The following TLI will be issued this week. It has the sign off from the OOLC and was subject to a HAZID. The SS will be required to review traffic levels in each of the groups to ensure it is an appropriate time to provide breaks. TMA staff will be required to help with the short breaks in ECS ML SY only.

To facilitate short breaks from an active console or position, a supervisor or Manager may approve a person who holds an Air Traffic Controller licence and who holds a valid Class 3 Medical Certificate, but who is not currently endorsed for the position/function, to:

(a) maintain a listening watch at the relevant console or position; and/or
(b) relay to an aircraft, verbatim recorded instructions issued by an appropriately endorsed controller for that console or position.

Additional requirements and/or limitations:

1. As a guide, a ‘short break’ would not be expected to exceed 20 minutes. Timing of short breaks needs to take account of pending activity and the actual break should, whenever possible, be delayed until a time of little or no expected activity.
2. A normal comprehensive handover and takeover is to be conducted prior to the endorsed controller vacating the position and when the endorsed controller returns to the position. Verbatim instructions from the endorsed controller shall be recorded in the same way that the handover/takeover is recorded. The endorsed controller shall also advise what Eurocat inputs are allowed in this handover. All instructions shall be recorded on a scratch pad for use by the non endorsed controller.
3. The endorsed controller must advise adjacent units that he/she is vacating the position and again when he/she returns.
4. The endorsed controller must be on call to return to the console.
5. In the absence of specific instructions to be passed from the endorsed controller via the person maintaining a listening watch, a person maintaining a listening watch, must not initiate communication and must limit replies to phrases such as STANDBY or WILL ADVISE; and
6. The person maintaining the listening watch must not provide any clearances or instructions to aircraft (except as permitted in (b) above) unless there is a threat to the safety of air navigation; but
7. The person to whom the endorsed controller issued the handover in 3 above:
· Is permitted to provide a flight information service; and
· Is expected to respond to issues affecting the imminent safety of air navigation.
8. Any situation which does not constitute an immediate compromise to the safety of air navigation must be dealt with in accordance with clauses 5 and 6 above and must be resolved and/or handled by the endorsed controller. All transmissions received shall be recorded on the scratch pad noting time, callsign and response.
A specific handover and takeover is to be conducted prior to the endorsed controller resuming the position.

The ECS ML SY ALMs are happy to provide a briefing one on one to the TMA staff.

Susan Smith

TLI_07_0341 which has been replaced by TLI_07_0548

Title

Short Breaks from a Console or Position

Valid From

UTC (10 fig) 0706150630

Replaces

Nil

Valid To Incorporated into relevant documents

Units Affected

BN OM Reef MC OS 1 Essendon Tower

BN OS 1 Tops

MCOS 2 Hamilton Island Tower BN OS 2 Sydney TCU

MC OS 3 Hobart Tower BN OS 3 Sydney Tower MC SS Jandakot Tower

BN SS Adelaide TCU Melbourne TCU Launceston Tower

Barrington Adelaide Tower Melbourne Tower Mackay Tower

Brisbane Tower Barossa West Procedural Maroochydore Tower

Byron Bass West Radar Moorabbin Tower

Cairns TCU Bight Albury Tower Parafield Tower

Cairns Tower Canberra Group Alice Springs Tower

Perth TCU Coolangatta Tower Canberra TCU Archerfield Tower

Perth Tower Fraser Canberra Tower Avalon Tower Rockhampton Tower

Moreton Central Group Bankstown Tower Tamworth Tower

Ocean Desert Group Camden Tower Outback MC OM

Coffs Harbour Tower

Amend

Brisbane Centre

Local Instructions Part 2 - CATSOAM 8

Rostering Business Rules Assistance to staff during night shifts (SR#52/53).

Melbourne Centre

Procedures Manual Centre Administrations Manual – Team Operations

TAAATS Procedures Manual – Part 15

Night Shift Arrangements MCO 15.11.0.0.20.43 Version 3

ATC Operations Manual Volume 1 – Part 11 CATSOAM (New Section)

Background

The information contained in Brisbane and Melbourne instructions relating to
short break provision on a night shift have been reviewed.

The instruction in this TLI applies to all shifts.

Instruction

Short breaks from a console or position

To facilitate short breaks from an active console or position when a controller
holding the relevant endorsements is not available, a supervisor or
Operational Command Authority holder may permit a suitably qualified
person (e.g. an air traffic controller or person with relevant air ground
communications skills) to:

(a) maintain a listening watch at the relevant console or position,
and/or

(b) relay to an aircraft, verbatim recorded instructions issued by an
appropriately endorsed controller for that console or position.

Notes:

1. As a guide, a ‘short break’ would be for only a few minutes – e.g. to
facilitate a toilet break. Timing of short breaks needs to take account
of pending activity and the actual break must be delayed until a time
of little or no expected activity.

2. In the absence of specific instructions to be passed from the
endorsed controller via the person maintaining a listening watch, a
person maintaining a listening watch, must not initiate
communication and must limit replies to phrases such as
“STANDBY” or “WILL ADVISE”.

3. Verbatim instructions from the endorsed controller shall be recorded
in the same way that the handover/takeover is recorded.

4. The person maintaining the listening watch must not provide any
clearances or instructions to aircraft (except as permitted in (b)
above) unless there is a threat to the safety of air navigation.

Authority

Brian Joiner – National ATC Service Support

References

NRFC 4972

ASID

SAIR

HAZLOG Register No:

Nil

Hazard ID:

Nil

Control No – SR:

Nil

Register Title:

Nil

Title/Description:

over and out

Chimbu chuckles

31st Oct 2007, 11:14

Yeah...this will work..what a GREAT idea:hmm::rolleyes:

QFinsider

31st Oct 2007, 11:21

The floggings will continue...until morale improves

One has to wonder why a very conservative group of professionals need to highlight their plight. Could it be the mis-management is as bad as at Qf...? :E

squawk6969

31st Oct 2007, 11:36

Not surprising, I have found a few instances of "Less than normal" service in the last week. Nothing dangerous, but being ditched off the system in an unusual manner from IFR and when VFR not be able to pick up some services (I think it may have been a trainee at the time so I understand) but it does seem that fewer are asked to do more with less.:eek:

SQ

divingduck

31st Oct 2007, 14:15

permit a suitably qualified person (e.g. an air traffic controller or person with relevant air ground communications skills
IS that like say....a pilot visiting the centre?:E

Icarus2001

31st Oct 2007, 14:19

Thanks Capt Zorro. Sounds very dodgy. If in fact it contravenes the CAR then there is no problem. Call CASA then the ATSB followed by a media release to all major Australian media outlets.

I find it very difficult to believe that AsA management would not have run this by their legal people first. If they did not then they really are dumb. Also I do realise that two lawyers will give three opinions.:rolleyes:

puff

31st Oct 2007, 15:19

You would think it would be a risk legal people wouldn't be willing to take.

Where would the management of AsA lie if a midair was to occur whilst the rated person was on the toilet and a non rated person was in the chair?

What also happens if the only rated person on duty has a family emergency or medical problem that needs for them to go home immediately, who would fill the chair then ?

I can guarantee one thing, rather than be dealing with the issues in that memo the people that issued it are probably attempting to hunt down whoever posted it on here too!

Marauder

31st Oct 2007, 17:22

I think a call to CASA and/ or the AFP would be a good start

Driscoll

31st Oct 2007, 19:19

AsA's office of legal counsel have approved this. CASA have apparently given verbal approval but nothing in writing. Seems like they've just readjusted the affordable safety threshold.

Sunfish

31st Oct 2007, 19:29

I think there are a few European air traffic managers looking for jobs, why not hire them?....If they aren't in jail.

Rant

31st Oct 2007, 20:02

Hello everybody...

Despite a shaky history of industrial relations, US ATCOs still maintain a system whereby two controllers are rostered per station. That way no matter what happens there is always a full-qualified back-up every minute of the day or night.

This expensive product they are supplying is otherwise known as "Safety."

Sunfish do you have some sort of psychological problem? You think that is funny?

WELLCONCERNED

31st Oct 2007, 21:06

And the SAFETY CASE is where?

I would have assumed that under the ICAO and CASA imposed requirements for a comprehensive and transparent Safety Management System, a change of this nature and magnitude would require, at the very least, a Safety Assessment, and quite possible a Safety Case. - PARTICULARLY IN LIGHT OF THE FINDINGS OF THE UBERLINGEN ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION!

Such Safety Case must have been produced for CASA, and CASA must have replied - in writing - that the changes proposed satisfy their expectations for maintaining Airservice's certification.

If this has NOT happened, then I suspect that both CASA and Airservices are in breach of their respective safety obligations.

I suspect that there is no requirement for this Safety Case [if it has been done] to be available in the public domain - but there IS an obligation for Airservices to say that it HAS, in fact, carried out said Safety Case, and for CASA to say that it HAS approved said Safety Case, before these changes were implemented.

I also suspect that an appropriately worded FOI request would force Airservices to make available said Safety Case - if it exists.

Chimbu chuckles

31st Oct 2007, 21:19

I find myself wondering if the AsA cost cutting is responsible for the downward spiral in the quality of timely weather reporting in Australia in the last year or so...there is a noticeable trend being commented on more and more of late.

It is also noticeable in the ME...specifically the UAE...another bastion of cronic ATC staff shortages.

Smackdown

31st Oct 2007, 22:32

As a Melbourne based RPT user of Airservices “services” I have noticed that they are deteriorating. We were also delayed going into Melbourne on last Thursday evening and from what I gathered everyone was getting hit with long delays caused by Melbourne Tower not having enough ATC’s. What worries me (enough to make my first ever post) is that this is not an isolated incident. I have noted at various times around the country in the last 2-3 years,

- Airspace has not been manned by ATC due to lack of staff and has been made
TIBA procedures;

- Towers have been closed due to lack of staff;

- ATC’s understanding of aircraft performance has fallen. Some of the things I have been asked to do are barely within the laws of physics let alone the capability of an RPT jet.Want me to slow down and then speed up, let me know early enough and I reuce the cost index-that gives me long enough to make a difference..

- Frequency congestion is becoming a real problem because ATC’s appear to trying to do more than one job. For example Melbourne Tower has been regularly saying on the ATIS that Melbourne Ground and Melbourne Clearance Delivery are being done by one ATC due to a staff shortage. Getting a word in under the circumstances can be difficult and the controller often sounds tired and/or stressed; and

- Flightwatch is a lottery as to whether you can get through to them (according to my son who flies recreationally)

I have also noted the recent debate on PPRuNe about Airservices only staffing night shifts with one person. Am I correct in assuming that if I call for help on the ATC frequency the person who answers can only provide very limited assistance until the proper ATC returns? From a “Team Resource Management” perspective I – as the Captain – need to know whenever part of the “Team” is not able to perform their normal duties and I have always been taught (and fully agree) that ATC is part of the “Team”. From the Airservices document posted here on PPRuNe it appears that I will not be told if the ATC service is limited. Is that true? If it is then as far as I’m concerned Airservices is withholding information that may affect the safety of my flight. :mad:

I also heard a rumour some months back from an FO I was flying with that I thought was unlikely at the time but I’m now wondering - after finding about single person night shifts – if the rumour was true. The rumour went along the lines that the taxiway lighting system at Melbourne Airport failed one night in July and that the Tower began to stop RPT traffic because taxiway lights are an AIP requirement for RPT aircraft. The Airservices managers/supervisors at the time told the ATC’s to keep operations going even though the ATC’s pointed out that it would be in contravention of AIP. The managers/supervisors then told the ATC’s that the pilots were solely responsible for compliance with AIP and ordered the controllers to only tell pilots that the lights were not available without reminding them about the AIP requirements. They were then to provide normal clearances but “225” pilots who followed the clearances for not complying with the AIP.

The Airservices managers thought they could avoid any responsibility for the non-compliance but still collect the revenue that each non-compliant operation generated. Apparently, the ATC’s refused to follow the orders because they felt professionally obliged not to lead pilots into a trap!! Even after their jobs were threatened and they were told that Airservices would organise with CASA to cancel their ATC licences (to stop them working anywhere in the world as ATC’s) they still refused to comply. It was only the taxiway lighting failure being rectified that stopped the matter going further. What a "service" where there is this sort of contempt for operational staff and the customers...

I still have trouble believing the rumour could be true because if it is the utter recklessness of Airservices towards the law and its customers safety is astonishing. You only have to look at Freedom Air’s night time taxiway excursion at Melbourne a couple of years back to know the potential risks. If Airservices is now more interested in money than anything else I guess things like this might be possible. Are there any PPRuNe ATC’s who can confirm/deny the rumour? Because if it’s true I want to express my deepest thanks to the involved ATC’s for their courage and integrity. I’m nearing retirement and I’ve got a clean record that I want to keep and I’m not sure I would have remembered the AIP requirement.

Let me emphasise that I don’t blame the frontline ATC’s for the problems that seem to be happening everywhere. It’s obvious by the outbreak of open dissent here on PPRuNe by ATC’s that they are just as concerned.

All the problems seem to come back to a lack of “investment” by Airservices in its people and infrastructure. We all know the airlines having been attacking the T&C’s of their staff (pilots in particular) in order to reduce costs – although I am yet to find the accounting standard that says ever rising management/executive bonuses are not also considered “costs”. Is this “short term money before anything” mentality also happening in Airservices?

After 30+ years in the industry I thought I had pretty much seen it all but I must say the possibility that the ATC system has “gone rogue” is a new one for me. With what I have observed and heard all I can say - as an outsider looking in at Airservices - is there seems to be more than a whiff of crisis surrounding the organisation. It might behove those of us who ply our trade in the skies and have to use Airservices “services” to consider them “suspect” and exercise extreme caution when using them.

I know this has been a long post but there are enough demands placed on flight crews by airlines without a broken ATC system adding to them! :ugh:

Retirement can’t come fast enough…:(

KeepItRolling

1st Nov 2007, 00:54

Well Said!

Cannot confirm or deny the ML lighting situation as I don't work there. BUT I find it totally believable about Management as described by you.

ASA MANAGEMENT THINK NO FURTHER THAN THEIR NEXT BONUS.

And that is the way it is.

Blockla

1st Nov 2007, 01:18

What worries me is that the person manning the console has no "authority to act" (so we don't break the regs... cute), but is able to respond in an emergency situation. Side issue, the service is not being provide in this time, so why are they charging for it?

Main issue, during TIBA no service is provided, but someone usually monitors the frequency for emergency calls and response. So why not go TIBA for this particular purpose, IMHO, becuase it looks bad so don't do it, so lets hide all evidence of providing exactly the same service we do when decalring TIBA; by not declaring TIBA. But what is the difference, the pilot knows, the public knows and there is an increased history of TIBA use.

It's the same thing, without the situational awareness in the cockpit; = this procedure is less safe than TIBA.

Ready Immediate

1st Nov 2007, 06:54

What also happens if the only rated person on duty has a family emergency or medical problem that needs for them to go home immediately, who would fill the chair then ?

While am very concerned about this practice, it should be noted that single person ops are not uncommon (some radar towers and many regional towers) and so the arguement above is not as significant as the way in which AsA has proposed to manage breaks.
RI

WELLCONCERNED

1st Nov 2007, 08:08

Oh, and on the subject of SLEEPING ON DOGGOS!

I seem to recall someone telling me that a few years back, the Airservices BOARD SAFETY COMMITTEE and thence the Airservices BOARD specifically directed that management cull the practice, direct management at the main centres [including Sydney] to stop the practice - AND provide a written assurance to the CEO and BOARD that sleeping on doggos did NOT take place.

I'm told that Sue Smith provided such an assurance for and on behalf of one Mr Ken McLean.

Seems odd that some years later that same person is refering to a practice that should, in theory, not be happening by BOARD direction - ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE UBERLINGEN ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION REPORT!

Capt Zorro

1st Nov 2007, 09:12

all this is in response to some information I have received from an ATC mate of mine, makes one shudder in their shoes:uhoh:

this is the problem with AsA is that an air traffic control service should never be run as a private enterprise irrestpective of being 100% owned by government. :confused:

As soon as you get a board of directors answering to the minister, with the charter basically being provide is with the best dividend every year, then the holy dollar will become of prime importance not SAFETY.:mad:
this is where AsA and its useless bunch of managers have come unstuck. they have written themselves contracts that give them huge bonuses if they come in under budget. So what does a business need to do to achieve this:
cut costs. how do you do that: keep minimal staff, employ some very creative bean counters (who also get big bonuses to be creative), make the staff work harder.

Oh yes forgot, SAFETY costs money so we will now have AFFORDABLE SAFETY, single man doggos, controllers not validated for a specific sector providing breaks for a sector they are not validated for, (that s ok as the chances of a f:mad:k up are small and we can afford that) oh and yes, dont let the f:mad:kers sleep that is not very productive as it costs us money and we will need to hire more staff and that will f:mad:k up our bonuses:mad:

Dont worry, we will threaten the staff with cancellation of license because our mates at CASA will do what we want and are as spineless as a limp dick, and the travelling public and stakeholders will never know because the union Civil Air is as weak as piss and the staff are now running scared in the face of AWA's (if the Libs are elected) in 2008 and licence cancellation.:rolleyes:

Yep we have all bases covered, just wish this election would hurry up and pass then we (the management can rest easier).

Wrong ars:mad:holes, the game is up and you are about to be found out and your manhood will be stripped away.:yuk:

Oh yes by the way, because they now have new ALM managers (who do not control either and crossed to the darkside of AWA's...gee maybe we can make then provide breaks because they have held a license at some stage) and the ALM's now also delegate some of their workload, which they knowingly took on in the switch to the darkside for the extra money, bacuase they have just realised, **** I will have to do work at home, after hours and I wont have a life, f:mad:k that, we will delgate our to the lower life line controllers and tell them they may jump some extra increments which in reality we have no authority to do and cant, but they are dumb f:mad:ks and dont know. This is the mentality of AsA.:=

Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that feels better, NOT because all pilots and their pax/cargo will deal with this daily now, wondering who is really at the other end.:suspect::{

out

No Further Requirements

1st Nov 2007, 09:46

Tell us what you really think Zorro!

Cheers,

NFR.

CaptainMidnight

1st Nov 2007, 09:59

Is it correct to say that the practice now in place at ML CEN has been used in BN CEN for some time?

There seems some inference to that in the instructions there somewhere.

SM4 Pirate

1st Nov 2007, 10:34

Is it correct to say that the practice now in place at ML CEN has been used in BN CEN for some time?My understanding is that Brisbane Centre has ostensibly rostered only single coverage for night shift unless more were required due traffic; but never before has an orchestrated 20 minute break (in an apparent to attempt to avoid OH&S and Fatigue issues) been supported by the 'break procedure'.

CASA now says that "NO reg break is apparent" because you aren't providing the service when giving someone a break (remembering you're not current/recent/endorsed/rated or combinations thereof); well the person on the break isn't providing the service are they? So who is?

If no service is being provided why is it a secret? Why not go TIBA?

People in CASA have you asked ASA the bigger question? If not, why not?

SM4 Pirate

1st Nov 2007, 10:37

Dear mod, can we combine these two threads...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=298425

Driscoll

1st Nov 2007, 10:51

Captain Midnight you are correct. Previously one controller did the whole shift with someone listening out on toilet/smoke breaks.
Then management at ML center decided (correctly) that the right fatigue management process was to double staff night shift so staff could nap and a business case was written to justify this. It was initially resisted by controllers (who wants to work twice as many doggo's?) but after coming into practice has been nearly universally embraced.
Unfortunately BN center didn't follow suit. So now management says we're short staffed and can't justify this (how dare the lazy bludgers get paid to sleep, they can do that at home with their wives every other night), previously we did single person, they still do everywhere else, it must be safe.
Unfortunately the CA specifies a minimum 20 min break per shift, previously a blind eye was turned to this and breaks were managed on a "mate, can you listen out while I take a leak" basis. Maybe 3-4 minutes, definately not 20. Hence we now have unrated people providing breaks on doggos.
Whether you get rated controllers or not, rest assured by 5 am they will be onto about their 12th or 13th hour since clocking on at 6 the previous morning and be knackered with no sleep in previous 6+ hours.
What could possibly go wrong?

Driscoll

1st Nov 2007, 11:03

Wellconcerned, you refer to the practice of staff sleeping at the console on single person doggo's. This should never happen, but I've been there and sometimes it's hard to keep the eyes open.

tobzalp

2nd Nov 2007, 08:48

Creeping myself but as most of the guys went to the pit when the AUD to US was in the late 40s and is now in the low/mid 90s, it in real terms is not an 85% increase. If anything, it is just the same a 3%. Plus you got to live in a **** hole. Just my opinion. Not going to debate it so don't bother.

Sure AsA are a pack of carnts but if you get on the horse and treat the place with complete contempt and expect nothing from it, you will be much happier. I bashed my head against a wall for years, now I don't give a crap.

Realistically, they won the battle. In the grand scheme though, they lost the war. They lost their work force and lets be honest, ATCs are generally a very bright bunch with so much to offer. These twits have no idea how to get the most out of their number one asset.

tobzalp

2nd Nov 2007, 09:50

Their
_____

I was getting about a Hungee at the time and now about 140. The 15000 doubled to exchange is 30 then plus the 40% is about 42 so you/they get around 10% better growth. Sure it is more but drop a zero on the end to get this homeboy into a towel on the head. I have watched your posts over the years and it seems to me you make them to convince yourself you made the right choice.

Lets not forget however tha AsA are carnts.

tobzalp

2nd Nov 2007, 10:09

We have drifted of course but seeing YOU brought it up, what was your starting coin and what is it now?

bloggerjck

2nd Nov 2007, 10:47

I guess it gets down to weighing up whether or not you want extra pay to live in a sandpit, hot unbearable summers, living in a complete different social society and the chance if you move there, it may break up your marriage, and if thats the case, then spending the rest of your time living away from your family and friends wherever that may be?

Or living in one of the best countries in the world, best living standards, a stones throw from your family and friends, bearable summers, live sport, but working for a stupid company.

I know what I'd rather not look back on approaching retirmement age and be thinking, "sh!t I've spent the last (x) amount of years here, I no longer know my friends back home, and my kids dont know me, let alone not having witnessed them grow up. Unfortunatley money talks for some.........

BeGoneTFN

2nd Nov 2007, 12:49

Love this thread, about time the truth was finally put out there.

What was once a great organisation is truly a mess.

I believe that unfortunately we are well beyond the PNR, its going to be a hard rough landing.

Wait till the EBA negotiations commence, there could well be an exodus from ASA as yet again despite being in a good bargaining position (ie nil staff) we can anticipate being treated like crap.

I have no doubt that all ATC's are well over being treated with contempt and as an expendable resource (more like expense). Lets face it the money is OK if you've been in for a while but if you have just joined and got a degree or even a trade why would you want to work 24/7 for 60k when you could probably get paid 70k anywhere else (ASA wake up and smell the coffee).

The clowns in senior management continue to advertise for bean counters, internal auditors and ALM's, I expect that it might soon dawn on them that no service delivery (environment) is possible.

Whilst they were busy contemplating the next cost cutting measure to ensure a reasonable bonus the core business was completely disregarded and consequently has degraded to the point where not even furiously pushing the ultimate fall back button (UFB, radar fixit) will be of any use as its been faulted for months and the only tech available that can fix it has just been shown the door! Along with all the plants in the building, sorry i meant organisation (one of those cost cutting measures)!:ugh:

TFN, go you good thing. Please go!

Blue heaven

2nd Nov 2007, 13:54

This will be my last post on this
Gotta love this bit??

divingduck

2nd Nov 2007, 16:39

and my kids dont know me, let alone not having witnessed them grow up.

ummm....Why would that be the case?

My two gremlins came out here with me, and had just about the best education money could buy. Don't take my word for it, ask them:ok:

The Euronator

2nd Nov 2007, 21:39

Capt Zorro

"stakeholders will never know because the union Civil Air is as weak as piss and the staff are now running scared in the face of AWA's "

Remember the Union is nearly ALL Air Traffic Controllers, therefore the union is Air Traffic Controllers NOT a separate organisation fighting for ATC's. The Civil Air Union is run by a majority of VOLUNTEERS. There are a lot of people who do this thankless task out of their OWN time. They are NOT compensated & in most cases they are NEVER thanked for the effort they have put in. NO DECISION is made by the EXECUTIVE BOARD it is left to the members to decide this. Positions can be negotiated but ultimately the MEMBERS have FINAL say.

If the MEMBERS push the EXECUTIVE BOARD (NATIONAL EXECUTIVE) to go to the enth degree then the National Executive MUST follow their recommendations. It is the MEMBERS that decide this NOT the National Executive. Ultimately it is the MEMBERS who decide the fate of Civil Air NOT the NATIONAL EXECUTIVE that you allude to.

Did I mention that the Union IS THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS !!!!!!

Therefore your comments can be interpreted to mean that the MAJORITY (as this is what is taken when voting is counted) of Air Traffic Controllers that are part of the Union are "As Weak as Piss". If they want to fight for what they believe they should be getting, then it's the CONTROLLERS that have to STAND UP & BE COUNTED.

Capt Zorro

3rd Nov 2007, 04:01

Euronator

that is exactly what I meant, and exactly why I have been told that the last ATC EBA that was finally accepted.:uhoh:

simple isn't it, but now some of those weak as piss people are having a whinge (quite rightly so) but they have no one to blame other than themselves. So now they need to stand up and be counted if not for themselves but for the sake of safety.

PMS

3rd Nov 2007, 04:11

tobzalp

totally agree with your post yesterday, ANSA has always and will always make these posts as he has to convince himself that he made the right choice ever since he left so that when he goes to bed at night he can feel better about himself while he has a bat. :{

he is obviously still not convinced poor misguided chap. :oh:

BTW, ANSA I can see math is still not your strongpoint. How about when you post these figures, you dumb it down to the basics of what they get in hand after accommodation, knuckle head. You give those who are a bit slow on the math a false impression of what they are really getting (still trying to convince yourself eh).

The real figure for the 5 yr controller is 42,000dhs per mth after accom, school etc and at the ****ty exch rate is about $12,300AUD per month or $144K pa .... which is about a 65% increase which is still good but a darn side lower than 85%....this should be posted in the DXB thread.:ugh:
ANSA, now you said it will be your last post.....do us all a favour and p**s off and dont post again. :D

plus stick to the bloody thread which in this case is AsA and unauthorised breaks by non rated staff not bloody money and T&C's which seems to preoccupy you.

Icarus2001

3rd Nov 2007, 04:26

PMS if you are going to break the rules and try to abuse someone by calling them a cretin, you could at least do yourself a favour and spell it correctly.:rolleyes:

peuce

3rd Nov 2007, 08:49

Euronator and Zorro,

You are correct in that the members ARE the Union.

But, from what I am reading, what you guys & gals need is a LEADER. It is unreasonable to expect a multi-purpose mob to get you what you want. Give the rabble a strong and focussed leader ... and you're on your way.

If you don't have a real LEADER now, you need to get one installed before your EBA negotiations start.

The Euronator

3rd Nov 2007, 13:55

Peuce,

I am talking about Civilair & the membership.

"It is unreasonable to expect a multi-purpose mob to get you what you want"

Civilair has Ordinary Controllers doing this Multi-purpose job task,that is what I am saying.

There are some very good Leaders within the Civilair structure but it takes the MEMBERSHIP to support them & back them in decisions that the MEMBERSHIP have made. The Leadership is ONLY as good as their Support base. I don't believe that Civilair Members are prepared to stick their proverbials on the block & fight for what they believe. They are too worried about their big mortgages etc.

Baileys

3rd Nov 2007, 13:58

ANSA - Those that have never lived outside of their home country for an extended period could never possibly understand the benefits of living somewhere like the UAE. Don't bother trying to convince those that really have not had the desire to go and find out what the world really is like. Let them be in their little world.

Regarding the single man 'doggo' - I have never heard so much whining from a group of people about something that has been going on in Brisbane Centre for years. Get over it or do something about it. You all know what to do but I'm pretty sure we all know that the group has already been divided and conquered years ago.

The next CA negotiations will be like all the rest. Lots of talk, maybe a little bit of action then an agreement to CPI plus nothing increase. Well done.

tobzalp

3rd Nov 2007, 19:32

I saw the Notams last night. It appears that a couple of groups are doing something about it.:ok:

peuce

3rd Nov 2007, 22:43

Euronator,

I think you got confused by what I was trying to say ... but in the end, I think we are saying the same thing.

However, as much as you think you have strong leaders already ... if the troops aren't following them, then either the leader is not as strong as you think, the leader has not come to grips with what the troops want (not need), or, your troops are so divided that, I think it will all end in tears.

Funk

4th Nov 2007, 04:09

When you have the majority of your members (like most working middle class Australians) up to their neck in debt be it home mortgages, investment loans on the rental property or novated leased 4WD's you are never going to get the rank & file to stick their necks out.

Suck it up boys & girls, this little black duck will not be returning in the near future to that crap that AsA dishes out.

I don't agree with every fairytale ANSA spreads but my non unionised work place here in the desert has the same staffing for all three shifts (Morn, Arvo & Night). Additionally since arriving 2 years ago our numbers on the night shift have increased effectively by 2, as well the supervisor has the discretion to combine sectors to accommodate more breaks. More needs to be done here granted but the same would and had never happened in the 10 years I worked for AsA.
:}

wolf_wolf

4th Nov 2007, 07:54

Euronator,

Does "The Leadership is ONLY as good as their Support base" hold true ? I agree with most of what you say, but surely good leadership exists independantly of followership ? Doesn't good followship just make the job bucketloads more effective ? ATCs typically are a pretty skeptical and cautious bunch, but give them something of substance and credibilty, and they just might listen.

If there is, as has been said, any decent leadership already in Civilair, then where is it ? The only communication is through the Civilair website (which only a fraction of the membership even use - but to be constructive it is much better than it used to be! Well done!) with the same whining cronies, the same threads, the same handful of names as three years ago, and for sure we'll end up with the same pathetic EBA.

I don't want to say the glass is half empty, in fact for sure it's at least over half full, but there has just got to be a more "intelligent" reasoning and bargaining process if the "members" are to actually expect something in return for their fees and efforts. Personally I don't see much of a return on Civilair fees. ATCs are NOT professional negotiators, yet we expect them to fight just such a battle against a corporate behemoth that pays for this sort of Industrial service, because the return on the investment to them is huge !! This is a game of service delivery costs and customer value. Justify it to your customers, and the boss really hasn't much else to say. So show me balance sheets, income statements, cash flows, industry forecasts, global (not local) wage comparisons, insurance policies, etc.. and the rest is just academic. We can all add can't we ? One guy just left to be an accountant - bring that chap back as an 'outside' consultant (:ouch:) and let's get the ball rolling !!

Carry on

Roger Standby

5th Nov 2007, 09:56

Lucky SDE isn't going to cost any staff! Airspace between Melb and Sydney TIBA again tonight. That's 3 out of the last 4 nights. At least you know that when it's TIBA that you aren't getting the service that you're paying for.

max1

5th Nov 2007, 10:57

The amount of people I have heard quietly talking 'exit strategy' is amazing.
We used to whinge and moan and mouth off hoping someone higher up would listen and this would spook them. ASA should be afraid , (thats not an iceberg!! we,ve got them in the golden handcuffs)
I've got kids and I get worried when they get quiet, they're up to something.
Controllers have given up on this crowd and are going to give bugger all notice when they go.
The poor b*st*rds stuck on a bond, are counting down the days.
People without the bond and no ties are looking at places where there is a lot on offer for their time-off. eg NZ or Europe
The older blokes who were thinking about retirement in 2-3 years are bringing it forward.
People ,like me ,who have the mortgage just about sussed ,are looking at just leaving controlling or are looking towards the Sandpit or Europe and are having serious discussions with their families.
I know three blokes who have brought their retirement forward, one who is looking at NZ, one who is looking at Ireland and at least two for the Sandpit, all who ASA are unaware of . Yet.

May we live in interesting times.

bluerider777

6th Nov 2007, 21:19

Someone the other day reminded me of the TAAATS introduction and how well it was planned. We had a staff "bowwave" or excess of staff created by training extra for a couple of years before to enable the changeover. We had a training embargo from before the transition to 6 months after(from memory) to enable consolidation. As a consequence the industry suffered probably no effects from the project (and it was a huge undertaking).

The picture now is a different one! We can't even seem to replace retiring staff let alone actually get to full staffing levels. Apparently the college is only putting 25 trainees thru next year (don't think that includes the internationals). Just start to think about how many people are seriously looking outside at the moment and figure out if that will even keep us running.

SDE has been badly mismanaged and why they are even attempting to implement it without the staff to do it amazes me! Of course all the experienced project staff were sacked for telling the truth so maybe they just think it will be alright on the night! Finally, they tell the airlines that SDE will cost no people (ROFL) but that there will be more TIBA due to staff shortage.:ugh:

We are looking down the barrel (in 6 months) of TIBA thru ML TCU as well because they are not prioritising staff replacements and are filling up ENR first (though it takes twice as long to train TCU). This is actually their plan! Of course, it will be those recalcitrant ATCs causing the staff shortages and not poor planning...

Blue (sorry that got a bit long!)

SM4 Pirate

8th Nov 2007, 09:21

Well, maybe "licencing and aerodromes" didn't run their responses, to individuals and ASA, through corporate lawyers at CASA and the sh!t is about to stick; then again that could be pure scuttle-butt.

WELLCONCERNED

8th Nov 2007, 09:25

YOU ARE STRAYING FROM THE POINT, BOYS AND GIRLS!!!

The thread relates to apparently unethical and ILLEGAL breaks on night shifts.

Forget what is being admitted to - there is a culture of ATC's working night shifts being allowed to "get their heads down" for a few hours whilst their comrades "cover" for them - THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE ADAM WAS A BOY!!!

The question is whether Airservices' latest pronouncement constititutes a legal direction - OR an attempt to cover their arses!

Do you think anyone - controller, pilot, engineer, etc - should be paid to SLEEP on a doggo?

Roger Standby

8th Nov 2007, 09:57

I think you are missing the point WELLCONCERNED. Long haul a/c are being designed with crew rest areas to facilitate rest breaks for the the crews. There is always someone qualified at the controls even while someone is having a rest, be that sleep or other. An engineer on night shift is entitled to a break and work either stops during that break or another QUALIFIED engineer takes over.

LAME to AME: "I'm going on a break, just finish this off and sign it off for me if I'm not back on time" ??? I don't think so.

I am legally entitled to a break on night shift. I expect that someone legally qualified should be able to provide that break for me. Why should I have to hold the responsibity for a/c in my airspace while someone not qualified sits and "monitors" for up to 20 minutes?

This is a legal question, not an efficiency one.

As a sideline, contrary to what management sprouts, double man doggos have been a huge success with regards to fatigue. Resistance was huge initially, but the majority are, by far, now much happier to work more night shifts if it means that their overall fatigue levels are significantly reduced (which they are).

The management that now writes how unsuccesful the concept of double man doggos has been is that same that wrote the lenghty document that proposed the two man concept in the first place. It was expressed that AsA was not going to stuff about about with half arsed measures in relation to night shift fatigue and that at a cost of only 4 employees across the whole of Melbourne Centre, night shift fatigue issues would be wiped out. The statement that argues the concept has not worked is a blatant mistruth- there is NO evidence to back it up except that the beancounters look at it and say you have 4 more controllers than you need. In fact I don't even thinks it's that. The real reason for canning the extra shift is that we do not have enough controllers to make their bloody SDE work. SDE has/will cost more staff. Scraping it thin all over the place won't cover the problems.

nilcontrol

9th Nov 2007, 04:57

Great thread about time the truth came out. At the outset I would like to say I am an ATC and frustrated private pilot.

Morale in AsA cannot get any worse and no one is listening. Staff that have left in the past 12-24months are all very experienced controllers form all parts of the organisation.

Parts of AsA are only operating, when staff get a chance to get to it. Some units are and have been short staffed for a long period of time. The system is really stretched to the limit and is only working due to the goodwill and professionalism of the remaining staff. I do not know how long this will continue, and only hope that nothing major happens.

There are some units where controllers cannot access annual leave due to staff shortages. These same controllers then get counseled on having too much rec leave accrued.

Our latest staff survey indicated that employee engagement in the ATC area is below 50%, but this was alright as this was a 25% increase on last year’s survey.

With management logic like this, we have a long way to go before morale will improve.

Safe flying.

flightfocus

9th Nov 2007, 22:07

Have to agree with previous post. This is a development that should concern anyone that commits aviation in controlled airspace.

Morale is non existent. The rhetoric from TFN and his isolated YSCB cohorts is demeaning and seems like it comes from a different company altogether.

* The SDE circus has been implemented in the typical knee jerk manner that this company loves to do things. In our location it has amplified staff shortages as the 3 nominees now no longer hold ratings to satisfy their FLM duties - whatever they may be.

Summary: 3 people now do the job of 1 former manager. None of which hold useful ratings.

* Retirements are required to give 1 years notice however for some reason they still seem to catch smiles and faces by surprise. A recent case of a check controller retiring is a classic example. Instead of a smooth, well planned handover to his replacement, the position was NOT even advertised until 2 weeks before his retirement!!!! :eek: This is despite repeated "reminders" of the pending problem.

Summary: Now several weeks after the checkie has left their is STILL no check controller appointed. What problem they say!! We are working on it.

* Pressure being bought to bare on controllers to take the annual leave that they are accruing. But how can we take it when there are no staff to allow the leave? What about the LSL that people are unable to take?

Summary: The company is running threadbare on controllers. The effect this has on morale is twofold. Firstly no leave and continuing crap rosters increases sick leave and decrease morale. The fabled morale spiral dive.:ugh:

Second, borderline controllers that may or may not be suitable are more likely to get through due to the pressure of staff shortages. Oh no you cry we don't compromise standards. Reality has to be considered here folks.

* New "engagement" of controllers. This involves increasing middle management (see above) and then getting these FLM's to justify there existence by creating/inventing "tasks" to be given to frontline staff. Now this is to make us feel warm and fuzzy. Make us feel that our little cog is important in keeping the ASA merry go round pumping.

Reality: Controllers working on crap rosters, not able to get leave and struggling with staff shortages already do not WANT or NEED to do other tasks to feel engaged. This has to be the biggest example of management creating something to rectify a problem (morale) without realising that you need the basics in place.

This post may have turned into a bit of a rant, but it is driven by frustration. And this frustration is widespread throughout the organisation.

Be confident that the controller you speak to is professional and holds his responsibilities and duties in high regard. But also know that the system is threadbare and senior management is unwilling or unable to really address the problem. After yet another restructure to shuffle the chairs morale is plummeting.

Lets hope that this charade can be stopped sooner rather than later.

peuce

10th Nov 2007, 06:08

Guys ... reality check time ...
All of what you say is correct,eg. morale is low, lots of overtime has to be done, no holidays .....blah, blah blah

BUT! ... Are aircraft still getting properly separated? Are aircraft still landing at Sydney? Are aircraft still departing from Brisbane? Are budgets being cut? Is more being done with less? YES! YES! and YES!

Seems to me that the CEO deserves his bonus then!

Do you think he cares HOW he got the outcomes? Do you think the Minister cares how Airservices got their outcomes?

I'm afraid bleating ain't gunna get you what you want ... as long as the outcomes are still being provided.

tobzalp

10th Nov 2007, 08:02

Mate, I am still rolling into work and seeing the same blokes propping it all up while in the next breath complaining about it all. It is fast becoming a lost cause.

The short sightedness of these idiots stupifies me. They carry on about their loans and their boats and needing to service them but if they had some nuts the last 9 years, it would be a far different climate to today. I still shake my head that a good third of the membership jumped all over AWAs to become ALMs (arse licking mongrels) and the union/general staff have sucked it up and said nothing. Piss weak.

I even heard one of the pricks saying that seeing as he no longer gets paid for OT he will not be bringing in a few treats for the boys. Now, seeing as the AWA had a heap of phat loot for the OT, he has already forgotten that he is being paid for it. Very ATC of him. Not that I have ever eaten from the OT jar on purpose as I don't do them but the attitude is what TFN and bum chums are rubbing their hands/lubing the fist over.

bluerider777

10th Nov 2007, 12:34

Flightfocus and Nilcontrol - great posts!

You sum up the feeling of the ATCs working at the moment beautifully. I do wonder at the disconnect between management and ATC now. For management to announce this single person doggo/unqualified break via an email :eek: without apparently having done any discussion first is terrible communication (at best!).
Then they announce the forums (3) but of course very few people can get there as they are propping up the roster (and who wants to come unpaid to work on their day off).

For the most part I wonder what can possibly be done to reconnect ATC with management. To have a safety based company which fails (in every way) to listen to its operational staff is crazy. I keep picturing the Uberlingen/Lexington etc reports with AsA inserted for Euro/FAA and all the same lines apply. How can this not scare managment as much as it worries me? :confused::confused::confused:

Blue

peuce

10th Nov 2007, 21:03

Because ....

They have all their eyes dotted and their tees crossed.

You are confusing working conditions with safety & operational outcomes.

They would have done all their safety cases, hazids and would have contingency plans in place. They have fatigue management systems and policies in place. Point to one thing that they are doing that is illegal. I'm sure even the one man doggo has been covered off. They aren't silly.

Now, consider ... what if the proverbial DOES hit the fan. I can only see the finger pointing at the troops. "But I was too tired after doing lots of overtime Your Honour"... "Did you abide by the employer's Fatigue Managamnent Policy, son?" ... "Ah ... but ..."

That's just one scenario. I'll leave it to you to consider every situation that could go wrong. Then consider what Airservices has in place to cover itself off. Then consider what you have in place to cover yourself off.

Oh, the working conditions .. that's another story ... there are ways to go about getting them re-modelled.

bloggerjck

11th Nov 2007, 08:36

Peuce exactly.........
Be very carfeul people doing extra shifts, remember its up to you on your days off whether you are fit or not? If you have an incident, and or accident (lets pray to god we dont) dont think an excuse "well I was fatigued" wil cover you? Before you know it, it will be your fault that YOU went in on your day off, you had the choice to weigh up your fatigue, but you measured it as sufficient? Sufficient to what? Reasonable OT? I dont think so................

SM4 Pirate

14th Nov 2007, 04:01

Well done to all concerned, are these breaks happening? Has anyone stood themselves down yet?

13 November 2007

Short Break procedures

Civil Air directs members not to handover any operational position to a person who is not endorsed and recent on that position.

Where endorsed and recent staff are not available to provide a break, members must be cognisant of their personal fitness for duty, including the impact of fatigue on fitness for duty, and their responsibilities under the relevant Civil Aviation Regulations.

Where personal fitness for duty cannot be guaranteed, members should advise their operational supervisor and stand down from operational duty.

Michael Haines
President

What a joke it's come to this.

CrazyMTOWDog

14th Nov 2007, 23:28

Peuce
What you state is correct, but they will go after the money.The Company, not the controller, has that.

bluerider777

15th Nov 2007, 23:15

Company response to controllers refusal to hand over to unqualified staff - "Do it or else".

This leaves the ATC in the enviable position (NOT) of disobeying a direct order/instruction or potentially compromising their license and that of the person they handover to.

TIBA again last night ELW and another sector...

Blue - around where I work morale is terrible and getting worse.:uhoh:

BeGoneTFN

17th Nov 2007, 10:55

You would be seriously nuts to be on the ASA board presently!

When the place really goes to **** and its not that far away, the people with no clue (i.e. the board) will be the ones in the ****!

Oh to be completely ignorant! :uhoh:

tobzalp

19th Nov 2007, 04:04

I admire the sentiment but, like last time expect the softcocks to roll over. I hope they prove me wrong. Due to some bizzare chain of events, I have only done 1 OT in 3 years. I have been available heaps but on those days, never got called. All the days they wanted me I either missed the call (95%) or was otherwise engaged baby sitting or just too fatigued to go in.

Roger Standby

19th Nov 2007, 11:34

The doggos are the tip of the iceberg. People are saying no to them, hence TIBA. There are still plenty of people covering holes during the day. I reckon we averaged 2 clangers a day in our group for the past 6 months. Our minimum staffing levels keep getting shaved, but the holes still exist. Mostly, they get filled. A lot are being done by newbies trying to recover the hit to the back pocket during 18 months of training. Some top end controllers are just sheer greedy. They aren't going to get too many complaints from the main carriers for the doggos because they're hardly up there. Melb Sydney has been closed for something like 7 out of the last 10 nights and no uproar yet. Might be different if it was during the day.

Hempy

19th Nov 2007, 16:05

Problem is solved, six "internationals" on their way to a sector near you :}

peuce

20th Nov 2007, 06:54

And you guys are still manning these positions, unrated?

Surely you're not scared of a little intimidation?

Don't you guys have the backbone to support each other ... if you consider that you are in the right?

bluerider777

21st Nov 2007, 11:00

Peuce, No one is working unqualified as these are the areas (mostly) that have been TIBA. ATC are managing their fatigue and not coming in on days off.

Finally, a response from management - meetings today with the GM (KM) and tomorrow as well. I was present at parts of the meeting today and KM could not possibly have left in doubt of the feelings and concerns of ATC (well done all). Notably, many controllers not known for militancy were loud (and clear) in their communication.

This is (IMHO) the first positive step since the commencement of this insanity. Lets hope KM takes it all on board and at least delays the remaining SDE until the cavalry arives (thanks Hempy).

Blue

groundstation

28th Nov 2007, 10:01

It appears a nationwide problem in ATC staffing levels and not just isolated to Melbourne Centre. Has this got anything to do with SDE?

bluerider777

29th Nov 2007, 10:14

It appears a nationwide problem in ATC staffing levels and not just isolated to Melbourne Centre. Has this got anything to do with SDE?

The general feeling amongst ATC is that staffing levels were critical prior to SDE. Everyone has been working extra shifts to keep things afloat.

To accomodate SDE rosters were split (for example some rocket route sectors) which requires extra staff at the very least until cross ratings are obtained. This left sectors somewhere below critical staff shortages with no end in sight. It also caused management to single staff the night shifts with a TLI directing unqualified ATC to give breaks.

The legality of this TLI is still under question and we await management to meet with Civilair (after some 4 weeks of asking) to help determine this.

So - the short answer to your question is YES. However, it also has to do with extremely poor staff planning on the part of AsA.

Blue

groundstation

29th Nov 2007, 11:21

Thanks Blue, sounds like a happy group of people!

Not quite sure what to make of this, but the below NOTAM's indicate staffing issues in Brisbane and that if you wish to nominate a SARTIME then contact FLIGHTWATCH. The problem being FLIGHTWATCH also is NOTAMed as being short staffed advising pilot's to contact ACC/FIC.

Who is in charge of this company?

ATS C2833/07
DELAY IN PROCESSING OPERATIONAL REQUESTS FOR FIS COM RAS AND SAR
ALERTING SERVICES MAY OCCUR WITHIN THE FOLLOWING CLASS G AIRSPACE
DUE TO STAFF SHORTAGE:

YBBB/BRISBANE RADAR 125.7 BRISBANE/ARCHERFIELD AREA AND 119.5 GOLD
COAST AREA

LATERAL LIMITS: 27 12 00S 152 36 35E
THEN ALONG THE MAJOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 30.0NM RADIUS CENTRED ON 27
21 57S 153 08 21E (BN/DME) TO 27 35 19S 153 38 35E, 27 44 36S 154 00
00E, 28 24 39S 154 00 00E THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 30
NM RADIUS CENTERED ON 28 10 08S 153 30 14E (CG DME) TO 28 28 27S 153
03 16E 28 26 13S 152 36 35E
THEN ALONG THE MINOR ARC OF A CIRCLE OF 70.0NM RADIUS CENTRED ON 27
21 57S 153 08 21E (BN/DME) TO 28 19 11S 152 22 38E, 27 53 24S 152 45
11E, 27 47 06S 152 49 49E, 27 44 13S 152 51 55E, 27 42 34S 152 52
59E, 27 13 25S 152 41 03E, 27 12 00S 152 36 35E

VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - BASE OF CTA

ATS SERVICES LIMITED ON 125.7, 119.5. PILOTS NOMINATING SARTIME
SHOULD CONTACT FLIGHTWATCH.

PILOTS REQUIRING MORE INFO FOR OPR IN THIS AIRSPACE SHOULD CONTACT
BRISBANE OPERATIONS DIRECTOR BY TEL 07 3866 3224
FROM 11 292100 TO 11 300200

ATS YMMM C5358/07 REVIEW C5284/07
ON-REQUEST FLIGHT INFORMATION (FIS), SARTIME AND EMERGENCY
ALERTING SERVICES NORMALLY PROVIDED BY FLIGHTWATCH ON DISCRETE VHF
FREQUENCIES NOT AVBL
DUE TO STAFF SHORTAGE.

SERVICES AFFECTED:

ON-REQUEST FLIGHT INFORMATION (FIS), SARTIME AND EMERGENCY ALERTING
SERVICES PROVIDED AS A GHOSTING FUNCTION BY FLIGHTWATCH ON DISCRETE
VHF FREQUENCIES.

118.95 MANINGRIDA
119.4 BUNDABERG AND TOWNSVILLE
120.1 GOVE
120.7 PERTH
121.1 SYDNEY
121.3 WESTERN VICTORIA
121.6 PORT MACQUARIE, WILLIAMTOWN AND SCONE AREAS
122.1 ARMIDALE, GLEN INNES AND COFFS HARBOUR AREAS
124.0 WALGETT, MOREE, COOLAH AND CAIRNS AREA
124.1 MOUNT ISA AREA
124.95 CENTRAL VICTORIA
128.15 NORTHERN NSW AREA
128.2 WHITSUNDAY ISLAND AREA
128.55 MILDURA
128.75 MAROOCHYDORE/BRISBANE AREAS
133.45 ROCKHAMPTON/GLADSTONE AREAS
134.85 MUDGEE AREA
135.05 SOUTHERN NSW
135.6 EASTERN VICTORIA

ON-REQUEST FLIGHT INFORMATION (FIS), SARTIME AND EMERG ALERTING
SERVICES PROVIDED BY FLIGHTWATCH ON DISCRETE VHF FREQ

118.4 ARGYLE
120.15 TINDAL
122.3 DARWIN
124.95 THURSDAY ISLAND AREA

ON-REQUEST FLIGHT INFORMATION (FIS), SARTIME AND EMERG ALERTING
SERVICES AVAILABLE ON FIA FREQUENCIES OR HF (REFER ERSA FAC-B
BRISBANE ACC/FIC AND FAC-M MELBOURNE ACC/FIC).
FROM 11 230013 TO 11 300100 EST
MON TO FRI 2200-0100

UnusualAttitudes

7th Dec 2007, 03:02

Ill second those comments.

The problems within Aircircuses need to be made public.

Roger Standby

7th Dec 2007, 03:41

And the minister's response...

"Thanks for your letter. I have forwarded your concerns on to AsA and CASA."

Around we go again.:ugh::{

5miles

7th Dec 2007, 23:01

"Thanks for your letter. I have forwarded your concerns on to AsA and CASA."
I believe that was the response from DOTARS, not the minister.

Roger Standby

8th Dec 2007, 02:51

Apologies. I stand corrected.

R.S.

groundstation

19th Dec 2007, 03:37

I notice big problems for operators in YMMM FIR today. This appears to be an issue that I have noticed deteriorating as time goes by.

Surely someone must be prepared to standup and take responsibility for this or do they get paid a performance bonus for reducing costs?

ATS C5814/07
ATS IN THE MELBOURNE FIR SUBJECT TO CONTINGENCY
DUE TO STAFF SHORTAGE.

AREA A: MELBOURNE CENTRE 120.3, 123.4, 125.4, AND 122.4 (SOUTH-WEST
WESTERN AUSTRALIA).
APRX AREA: 36NM SOUTH-EAST PH, HOOD POINT, YWDG, YDON, NORTH-WEST
ALONG 80NM ARC PH TO 30NM SOUTH-EAST JNB, 25NM NORTH-EAST JNB, 200NM
NORTH-WEST PH, 160NM WEST PH, 36NM WEST PH, NORTH ALONG 36NM ARC PH
TO 36NM SOUTH-EAST PH.
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - A085 BTN 36 - 90NM PH SFC - FL180 OUTSIDE
90NM PH.

AREA B: MELBOURNE CENTRE 122.4, 123.9, 124.9 AND 120.3 (SOUTH-WEST
WESTERN AUSTRALIA).
APRX AREA: 36NM WEST PH, 160NM WEST PH, SOUTH ALONG 160NM ARC PH TO
30NM SOUTH-WEST YAUG, 100NM SOUTH-WEST YABA, 150NM SOUTH-EAST YABA,
HOOD POINT, 36NM SOUTH-EAST PH, SOUTH ALONG ARC 36NM PH TO 36NM WEST
PH.
VERTICAL LIMITS: AREA B SFC - FL600

MAJOR ATS ROUTES: W172 BTN 36NM PH AND YABA.

ATC SER ARE NOT AVBL IN CLASSES A, C AND E AIRSPACE.
DIRECTED TRAFFIC ADVISORY INFO SER IS NOT AVBL IN CLASS E AND G
AIRSPACE.
DIRECTED TRAFFIC SER IS NOT AVBL IN CLASS G AIRSPACE.
ADS/CPDLC LOGON: YMMM SER NOT AVBL THIS AIRSPACE.
FLW PROC APPLY: TRAFFIC INFO BCST PROC (TIBA) AS DETAILED IN AIP GEN
3.3 AND ICAO ANNEX 11 SHALL BE USED.
TCAS AND TRANSPONDER EQPT MUST BE SELECTED AT ALL TIMES.
IN-FLIGHT INFO, SARTIME AND EMERG ALERTING SER ARE AVBL ON REQ FROM
FLIGHT WATCH.
PILOTS CONSIDERING OPR IN THIS AIRSPACE SHOULD CTC THE MELBOURNE OPS
DIRECTOR TEL +613 93356671 FOR FURTHER INFO.
FROM 12 182200 TO 12 190130
0712182200 TO 0712182300

0712190030 TO 0712190130

ATS C5817/07
DELAYS CAN BE EXPECTED FOR TRAFFIC INTENDING TO TRANSIT AIRSPACE
DUE TO ATC STAFF SHORTAGE

YMMM/BATHURST (NSW CENTRAL TABLELANDS). CONTINGENCY MAP AVAILABLE AT
HTTP://WWW.AIRSERVICESAUSTRALIA.COM/NOTAMMAPS/ML/DESERTBTH.PDF

APPROXIMATE AREA:
AREA A: 5 NM S KAT NDB, 30 NM NW BIK, 10 NM E YYNG, 12 NM SE YPKS,
MDG VOR, 20 NM NW YSRI, SOUTH ALONG 45 NM ARC SY. VERTICAL LIMITS:
SFC - FL180

AREA B: 10 NM S YYNG, YFBS, 30 NM SW YSDU, 40 NM SW MDG VOR, 12 NM SE
YPKS, 10 NM E YYNG. VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - FL245 AREA C: 30 NM SW
YSDU, 40 NM SW MDG VOR, MDG VOR, 15 NM NE YSDU. VERTICAL LIMITS:
FL180 - FL245 FREQUENCIES: MELBOURNE CENTRE 135.25 AND 118.5 (MT
CANOBOLAS).

MAJOR ROUTES:
KAT TO BTH, CWR, ORG PKS AND 50 NM SE DU W751 BTN RILEY AND YNG DU,
PKS, ORG AND BTH TO BIK V295 BTN 45 NM NW SY TO 50 NM SE DU

PILOTS REQUIRING MORE INFO REGARDING OPR IN THIS AIRSPACE SHOULD CTC
THE MELBOURNE OPERATIONS DIRECTOR TEL ON +613 93356671.
FROM 12 190400 TO 12 191000

ATS C5818/07
DELAYS CAN BE EXPECTED
FOR TRAFFIC INTENDING TO TRANSIT AIRSPACE
DUE TO ATC STAFF SHORTAGE.

YMMM/DUBBO (CENTRAL WEST NSW - DUBBO, WARREN, TOTTENHAM AREA).

CONTINGENCY MAP AVAILABLE AT
HTTP://WWW.AIRSERVICESAUSTRALIA.COM/NOTAMMAPS/ML/DESERTDUB.PDF AP

APROXIMATE AREA:
AREA A: 20 NM SW CNM, 10 NM S NYN, 20 NM W CDO, FBS, 15 NM NE DU.
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - FL285

AREA B: 30 NM SW YSDU, 40 NM SW MDG VOR, MDG VOR, 15 NM NE YSDU.
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - FL180

FREQUENCIES:
MELBOURNE CENTRE 123.9 (DUBBO) MAJOR ROUTES: UH226 BTN ABM DU AND
NYN ROUTES FROM DU SE TO 50 NM DU A576, G222 AND J141 FROM PKS TO 70
NM W PKS W540 BTN DU AND HUMOK W731 BTN DU AND LLAMA W516 BTN DU AND
75 NM W DU PILOTS REQUIRING MORE INFO REGARDING OPR IN THIS AIRSPACE
SHOULD CTC THE MELBOURNE OPERATIONS DIRECTOR TEL ON +613 93356671.
FROM 12 190400 TO 12 191000

ATS C5819/07
DELAYS CAN BE EXPECTED FOR TRAFFIC INTENDING TO TRANSIT AIRSPACE
DUE TO ATC STAFF SHORTAGE.

YMMM/BOURKE (CENTRAL WEST NSW, UPPER LOWER WESTERN DISTRICTS).

CONTINGENCY MAP AVAILABLE AT
HTTP://WWW.AIRSERVICESAUSTRALIA.COM/NOTAMMAPS/ML/DESERTBKEBOG.PDF

APPROXIMATE AREA: 15 NM NE DU, AROLI, 60 NM W KARAG, APOMA, TAROR,
NEWMO, 60 NM S NEWMO, 50 NM NW GTH, CDO, FBS, 15 NM NE DU. VERTICAL
LIMITS: FL285 - FL600

FREQUENCIES: MELBOURNE CENTRE 128.2 (BOURKE).

MAJOR ROUTES: W540 (DU - BKE) A576 BTN PKS AND APOMA G222 BTN PKS
AND TAROR J141 BTN PKS AND NEWMO T77 BTN VENEL AND NYN T74 BTN NYN
AND KARAG Y340 BTN NYN AND PECAN UH408 BTN DOXIE AND NYN Y23 BTN
VENEL AND OKAPI H319 BTN NYN AND PKS UH226 BTN ABM DU AND NYN T91 BTN
APOMA AND AROLI T139 BTN TOBOB AND COORS W516 (DU - BHI) W421 (CBA -
BKE)

PILOTS REQUIRING MORE INFO REGARDING OPR IN THIS AIRSPACE SHOULD CTC
THE MELBOURNE OPERATIONS DIRECTOR TEL ON +613 93356671.
FROM 12 190400 TO 12 191000

ATS C5820/07
DELAYS CAN BE EXPECTED
FOR TRAFFIC INTENDING TO TRANSIT AIRSPACE DUE TO ATC STAFF SHORTAGE.

YMMM/TEMORA (RIVERINA AREA NSW)

CONTINGENCY MAP AVAILABLE AT
HTTP://WWW.AIRSERVICESAUSTRALIA.COM/NOTAMMAPS/ML/DESERTTEM.PDF

APRX AREA:
FBS, CTM, 15 NM N WG, 40 NM S GTH, 30 NM W GTH, YHLS, 20 NM W CDO,
FBS VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - FL245

FREQUENCIES: MELBOURNE CENTRE 134.65 (MT BINGAR).

MAJOR ROUTES: H44 BTN 30 NM W CWR AND 30 NM W GTH W751 BTN YNG AND
NAR ROUTES TO AND FROM GTH VOR (WITHIN 30 NM TO THE WEST).

PILOTS REQUIRING MORE INFO REGARDING OPR IN THIS AIRSPACE SHOULD CTC
THE MELBOURNE OPERATIONS DIRECTOR TEL ON +613 93356671.
FROM 12 190400 TO 12 191000

ferris

19th Dec 2007, 05:37

That is exactly what is/has been going on (for a while).
Obviously keeping the shop open wasn't a KPI.

Hempy

19th Dec 2007, 11:44

Until it starts costing Airservices money their management won't care. The facts are that the job is being done, they are collecting their nav charges, people aren't dying...why fix what ain't broken. Besides, more TIBA, less wages being paid, bigger savings at audit time, bigger bonus, everyones happy.

JackoSchitt

19th Dec 2007, 19:01

How many X TIBA = no AOC ?????

SM4 Pirate

19th Dec 2007, 21:15

How many X I'm afraid Jacko, given the current scruples being applied by CASA "X" = a number you couldn't count to. For CASA to even threaten to remove the AOC would cause a huge ruckus. I wonder if ASA was an airline would we still be operating? Well if painted red and white probably.:}

BeGoneTFN

19th Dec 2007, 22:55

Realistically ASA knows that the Gov and CASA have no alternative and thats the problem with the monopoly, they have no competition.

No competition = No services + No concern for safety.

I can recall predicting this debacle about 5 months ago, we need to get rid of TFN. The root of all the problems.

BGTFN

Slugfest

20th Dec 2007, 07:08

BGTFN,

I wonder if TFN is the problem or it is the middle "Yes Man" managers that feed him bull-pellets and direct that the underlings stand in it are the problem.:suspect:

People like SDE/Group Managers.:hmm:

These people have been told and told and told about staff problems for 2+ years and are only NOW recognising it?

Using Flightwatch as an example. 19 out of a staff of 100 marched out on redundancy and now they cannot staff the function.

Training as another example. They were slashed in half some years ago (and some sort of australia day award for the manager no less!!!) and then recently the go is that training is reverting to the previous structure because they cannot meet the workload - and doubling their staff!

Surely TFN does not get involved at this sort of level?:confused:

Oh, hang on, did someone say "pot plants" Damm....i just shot my own argument......ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!:{:(:sad:

ER_BN

20th Dec 2007, 09:25

Anyone heard the rumour that CASA wants the last of SDE stopped to reduce more TIBAs....a touch of conscience at last...no, if they were a real regulator they would have had the Game Show host and the Kiwi Scot on the coals..for even starting it.

Imagine all those unaccounted millions waiting for a proper audit to investigate..

Wonder if the business case took into account all those "lost" controller ratings into the negative...oh and still looking for the positives as any AsA present to staff could have been done without the changes...

How to completely stuff their core business in one big false spin...

Top three levels have got to go....

and most of the board as well...

Slugfest

20th Dec 2007, 09:40

Have I got this right?:confused:

Consider two (2) controllers; each endorsed for HIGH and LOW sectors for differing geographical areas ruled by two ALMs

Take one off line and replace him and train him to do the HIGH sectors for the another area taking several months of Sim and OJTI and he then has to regain his original HIGH endorsement and of course loses his original LOW ticket.

Once he is back on the job:

Take the other controller off line and replace him and train him to do the LOW sectors for the another area taking several months of Sim and OJTI and he then has to regain his original LOW endorsement and of course loses his original HIGH ticket.

END RESULT after considerable training and replacement

-------Drum roll please------------

Two controllers each rated HIGH and LOW for differing geographical areas ruled by two ALMs

Which was what we started with ….:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

To quote Professor Julius Sumner Miller– “Why is it so?”:confused::confused::confused:

BeGoneTFN

20th Dec 2007, 12:12

Direct.no.speed

Here, here, sums it all up beautifuly in a few short sentences.

Bit of a shame really, it used to be a great organisation to work for unfortunately however thats no longer the case.

Its a matter of going into work and providing the best service you can with very limited resources, collecting the money and now for the first time concentrating on life away from the place.

Why would anyone want to be there on an ROD, not me! :=

ps

TFN is the worst micromanager of all time the pot plants are the tip of the iceberg from what I hear. He has his grubby fingers in everything, ALM's are but mere puppets the ones who will eventually get the bullet.

Roger Standby

21st Dec 2007, 05:22

There are about 6 ashtrays downstairs at YMML. Exorbitance! I'm sure there's a couple of bucks worth of scrap metal to be saved there! And the bog roll - I'm sure a few bucks could be saved if we went to that grease proof paper stuff. What on earth's wrong with these incompetents? Money to be saved everywhere! :}

bluerider777

21st Dec 2007, 07:05

Slugfest,

Loved the succinct description of SDE!

You did forget to mention that the ATC now can work on a screen range so big they can barely monitor separation on it.:ugh:

Also, the increases in coordination which help no end...

Blue

Roger Standby

21st Dec 2007, 10:02

Blue,

Was talking to someone the other day about the ranges used and he suggested that on certain combinations of airspace, the distance between tracks (without the tracks actually touching) was around 27nm. Possibly OCA included there, can't remember. Anyone working big procedural sectors getting ADSB able to advise the sort of distances they get?

boree3

21st Dec 2007, 16:34

Perhaps it`s time to press the big red button marked EMERGENCY STOP when it comes to SDE?
The numbers have never been proven to stack up to close analysis, not that us mere mortals have ever seen them. Surely, if SDE is supposed to be soooo good then why not try to win the staff over and show us why it`s a good idea?
Meanwhile the airlines get more and more delays in en-route sectors due limited staff numbers. I heard 30nm trails southbound to YMML the other day prior to entering Melbourne airspace. Now thats efficiency!
Speaking of staff numbers there are rumours of many, many controllers from all locations and all experience levels are actively pursuing overseas options, Three gone from one group alone in Melbourne in a short period of time seems to be an indication the rumours have some credence.
No matter, we have a programme to recruit experienced controllers from overseas don`t we? Anybody have an accurate figure on how it`s progressing? If all else fails we could push a few more through the college perhaps? Do we have the staff available to increase the throughput at the college?
If any of our friends in the sky read this i`d say you aim`t seen nothin yet. The delays will get worse. You can expect more short notice delays/vectors etc, for no apparent reason. We`ll all try to deal with the situation as best we can but please understand the voice at the other end of the line is not supposed to have a life and be happy to come to work at the drop of a hat on his days off. We even receive calls to come to work when on leave these days. Just remember, controllers don`t have a life.
Can`t wait for the next 2% + 2 % etc. in the next CA. You think we`re pi##ed off now? :ugh:

BeGoneTFN

21st Dec 2007, 21:22

Heard a rumour that you don't even need to pass an ATC course now to get OJT, anyone able to confirm?

SM4 Pirate

21st Dec 2007, 21:58

Only if you're an OS recruit; the same "milestone" where others have allegedly been terminated or extended in the past, is now worthy of green lighting to OJT.

Well what chance have they had?
Was the "rushed" course crap?
Is their experience substantially different to their new environment?
Was there a proper TNA done?

Apparently complete the course means just that, the rules don't say complete [b]and pass[b], well when it suits.:} What has CASA to say? Well ASA is a mature organisation; right?

bluerider777

23rd Dec 2007, 06:10

Just another rumour to add to the mix...

Of the 3 OS recruits sent to BN: 1 pass. Can anyone confirm???

I feel for these guys, the TNA seems to have been a bit optimistic given the significant differences in the way Oz operates to the rest of the world.

Blue

max1

23rd Dec 2007, 09:13

Roger Standby,
The old Ocean sector, now Upper Airspace East (UAS(E)), when incorporated with Cape High , will include airspace north of Nauru( that is north of the Equator) to the South of Tasmania then west of Darwin (approx 130 deg East) to east of Nauru ( 170 deg East )
To put it in perspective that is 1/9th of the world north to south and just under 1/8th east to west.

Smackdown

23rd Dec 2007, 11:59

Passed on by Ops early Saturday morning (edited for brevity):

"Melbourne FIR Notam C5870/07

0300-0330 local

ATC, FIS and alerting services normally provided by Melbourne Tower not avbl due staff contingency. Aerodrome control, ground and clearance delivery closed. PIC's are solely responsible for collision avoidance while on the aerodrome. Access to ML restricted. CTAF procedures in use. FIS avbl fm ML terminal control unit or flightwatch. Directed traffic information will not be provided on aerodrome. Alerting service provided by ML terminal control unit. Prior to operating at ML pilots must receive a briefing on contingency procedure and obtain a slot time. All airport lighting pilot monitored. IFR ops only and all aircraft lights must be on."

So now Airservices has closed a capital city international airport tower because it appears they didn't have enough ATC's to staff it. Launy is bad enough - but ML too????????:eek: There's quite a few international ops at ML in the early hours- how much did this cost them?:(

Airservices - do us all a favour - make the whole country a CTAF, hand in the keys and consider yourself voted off our vast, brown island. I'm sick of wading through your War and Peace length NOTAMS telling me "... this is TIBA, that is closed and oh, by the way, we're open but expect holding because of staff contingency". Is "staff contingency" a spin doctors way of saying "ATC's are worth their weight in gold but there's not a snowflakes chance in Hades that we're going to take it from executive performance bonuses to get more of them"?

Thank (insert your preferred deity here) that I don't have to phone the Airservices heirarchy on a daily basis. I'd soon get weary of having to use the opening line:

"May I speak to an adult please?":rolleyes:

Clowns.:mad:

Capt Wally

23rd Dec 2007, 17:33

...............i'll just check my calender here, .............hmmmm just as I suspected.................nope, it's not April the 1st !!!....................you would think that with that Notam it was April Fools day !!!!:bored:

"Smackdown" hope yr not trying to ring the local kinda where adults are few, you maybe getting confused as to whom yr trying to contact there !
Airservices maybe gearing up for 9-5 buisness hrs only, after that leave a message !
:bored:
Tnxs for bringing that to our attention, Imagine trying that stunt at a major airport in the states !!!

CW:)

Buster Hyman

23rd Dec 2007, 20:51

Look, I'll be there as soon as I can...just a few more tests & interviews ok!;)

Dog One

23rd Dec 2007, 21:15

It would seem that Airservices have insufficient ATC staff to cater for sick leave. Why? Poor planning, cost cutting or the inability to manage the organisation.
One would think that the overall poor performance of Airservices this year would warrant no bonuses for management, simply because they have failed to come up with the goods.
Its a national disgrace that a capital city international airport has insuficient ATC staff. The situation really warrants a senate investigation and the public hanging of those found guilty of creating this problem.

CaptainMidnight

23rd Dec 2007, 21:42

Was that for half an hour @ 3 o'clock in the morning?

Was it to give someone a break?

satos

23rd Dec 2007, 21:56

A man cannot cannot even go to the sh1tter in piece.

peuce

23rd Dec 2007, 23:49

Before I go and celebrate the festive season, I would like to put forward my suggestion for the New Year. To view my suggestion, you have to forget what might have been in the past and cleanse yourself of any feelings of fundamentalism. My vision is based on safety requirements, the future needs, common sense and commercial realities. Here goes:

The reality is that we have to provide Air Traffic Services (of one kind or another) over the whole of the Australian territory

Another reality is that ASA has not been able to, and in all likelihood, will have future problems, providing enough ATCs to provide those services.

Why are ASA having trouble filling the ATC places?

Worldwide shortage of Controllers
Reducing number of applicants in Australia
Extremely complicated and exhaustive selection process
Extremely high standards required of applicants
Fairly high attrition rate during training
Lack of morale and job satisfaction
More attractive salaries elsewhere

This brings me to the logical question. Are fully trained Controllers required to provide ALL those services?

What if a level of Controller, requiring a lesser entry standard and a lesser training standard could be employed to provide some specific services? What would be the benefits?

Opens up a larger pool of prospective applicants
More applicants would meet the entry requirements
More applicants would survive the selection process
A shorter training course … on the roster quicker
Lower payroll cost to ASA … and therefore, the Industry
Higher morale for existing Controllers who could be released from less satisfying duties
Existing Controllers would loose the distraction of providing Flightwatch services

What duties would these (lets call them) FIA Controllers do?

Provide DTI in Class G Sectors
Provide Flightwatch services
Provide remote Aerodrome Traffic Information Services e.g. Ballina
Possibly provide on-site Aerodrome Traffic Information Tower Services e.g. Karratha or Avalon … a la United Kingdom

What is the precedent for this? Airservices’ proposal for Flight Data people to provide clearances. Obviously Airservices already considers that fully trained Controllers aren’t required for all services

Would the FIA Controllers progress to be Separation Controllers? Possibly, after a bridging course, however, as they would be recruited for their specific skills and personality type … they may not easily translate to separation.

Some Christmas food for thought ... cheers:ok:

Hempy

24th Dec 2007, 00:25

Yeah, and then you could put all the "FIA Controllers" into one room and put a sign on the door saying "Flight Service" :hmm:

groundstation

24th Dec 2007, 01:52

More of the same today in MEL twr. The ATIS advises some frequencies are being combined and to expect delays. One must think that this cannot continue for too much longer before safety is compromised. Surely its time for all parties to sit down and figure out a solution or is it a case of pretend there is no problem and when the ____ hits the fan, tell the ATSB team that you were never away of any problems.

Santa has stocked up on Teflon this year.

undervaluedATC

24th Dec 2007, 04:58

peuce,

are you AsA management?

"requiring a lesser entry standard and a lesser training standard"

here I thought that the aim of Air Traffic control was to provide a SAFE and efficient flow of traffic.

makespeed250kt

24th Dec 2007, 06:18

Peuce,

What a great idea! We could call them Regional service officers!:ok:

HO HO HO Merry Xmas

The Euronator

24th Dec 2007, 08:39

What duties would these (lets call them) FIA Controllers do?
Provide DTI in Class G Sectors
Provide Flightwatch services
Provide remote Aerodrome Traffic Information Services e.g. Ballina
Possibly provide on-site Aerodrome Traffic Information Tower Services e.g. Karratha or Avalon … a la United Kingdom

Been done before ;) quite successfully actually.

What is the precedent for this?

Been done before ;) quite successfully actually.

Would the FIA Controllers progress to be Separation Controllers?

Been done before ;) quite successfully actually. A lot are probably your colleagues

Possibly, after a bridging course,

Been done before ;) quite successfully actually.

they may not easily translate to separation.

It depends on the age of the participant. You will find a lot of your colleagues are very good controllers who have come from this background. Several are sitting on busy radar sectors including Brisbane TMA. Some have even managed to translate their skills to extremely busy centres in Western Europe.:)

divingduck

25th Dec 2007, 07:01

hey euro...there are a few of us here in the sandpit too:}

Peuce...What a great idea...why don't you float it by Dick Smith...he was the one that got rid of them, and then has screamed for them to be re-introduced in places like...oh, Wagga, Mildura etc.
Guess what? They USED to have FSUs there, and many other places, but Yank loving Dick got rid of them because the Yanks don't have them...oh wait a minute...They do have them!!! How stupid of me:ugh:
So the more things change, the more they stay the same it seems, only this time it will cost a sh!tload more to provide the same(or poorer) service.
right, that's enough of this Bah humbug from me, Merry Xmas to all, I am off duty in 2 hours and going to eat and drink far too much...:ok:

PMS

25th Dec 2007, 22:52

happy xmas to all you people out there,
this YMML twr closure is only the tip of the iceberg. The TIBA's that have been experienced on the area sectors were the start, but it will now bite very hard in the major capital city towers and the major cap city TMA's (CB incl) because Airservices management in their wisdom, have been hoodwinked by lower management that they have had sufficient numbers thus assisting those managers below to reap their huge bonuses on the back of working the existing staff very hard.

Now DXB, AUH and BAH are recruiting like mad and the aussies have and will feature prominently in the mass exodus that is starting tol happen now. It will not be just some retiring (but this will also accelerate very rapidly), but mainly those moving on to other ATC gigs overseas or some just sick of it and make a career change while they can.

The ME salaries will continue to rise over the next few years, just due to high demand and limited supply. Primarily in DXB but also AUH area and airport/app and Qatar, Bahrain and Muscat. the omanis are very slow but sooner or later they will have to raise the stakes or they will suffer the consequences and they dont like egg on face either.

Australia could very easily lose over 100 controllers due retirement and mainly due to OS recruitment over the next 12 months, so your delays will only get worse. The middle east alone will easily absorb over 150 - 200 controllers this year. Yes safety will be compromised even more as the ATC staff that will be leaving will be the guys with over 5 years experience (except those about to retire) while the least experienced ones.

AsA will never be able to keep up with the salaries there, it will not be tolerated by government here which could lead to a wages breakout.

Aussie controllers are generally held in very high regard overseas, especially in the ME so I would not be surprised to see over 30 plus aussie controllers make the jump over the next six months with more to follow. This will totally screw the management to the point that the new government will take very close look at AsA and its structure at some point in the next 12 mths and could take some very drastic action as this is what will be needed.

One can hope that they likes of their top 10 plus etc will be looking for new jobs within 12 months due to thier lack of management ability and i dare say will find it hard to find new jobs....maybe they can look to Serco as I hear they like to hire incompetent management.

bekolblockage

26th Dec 2007, 01:19

If you require a landing clearance, press 1
If you require a take-off clearance press 2
If you wish to speak to an ATC, please call back during office hours.

BeGoneTFN

26th Dec 2007, 11:29

Its my understanding that ML TWR has been in the **** for some time, that this was inevitable and probably just the beginning.

Its a case of all the goodwill being expended, I do look forward to the EBA negotiation!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh::ugh::{

The place is a basket case.

bgtfn

WELLCONCERNED

26th Dec 2007, 20:39

Ah, so now the truth emerges!!!

The forthcoming EBA negotiations!!

It would seem that, as usual at this time of the industrial negotiation cycle, certain controllers take it upon themselves to 'help the negotiation process along', by calling in sick and leaving rosters short, by suddenly becoming aware of their fatigue, by suddenly having an attack of safety consciousness, that will only be ameliorated by a large dose of cash in the next EBA!

Perhaps the Australian Federal Police should be brought in to see if there's a conspiracy amongst controllers - and dare I say, even orchestrated at union level. Not saying there is, boys - but sure smells funny from here in the cockpit.

undervaluedATC

26th Dec 2007, 21:56

wellconcerned you might be.

wellinformed you are not.

This staffing problem is not new. Without exagerration, for the last year (at least) I would have been asked to do OT on one, if not both, of my RDO's, and more usually, for more than one shift each day.

The goodwill has run out. We ATC's are tired, and getting mored tired.

And the EBA you refer to does not even expire until the 2nd half of 2008.

LapSap

27th Dec 2007, 03:10

but sure smells funny from here in the cockpit

There is definitely the stench of something on this thread but it ain't conspiracy. You checked your daks lately WELLCONCERNED?:yuk:

WELLCONCERNED

27th Dec 2007, 08:14

Typical lazy-a*sed wombat ATCs - oh poor me, I have to talk to 3 aeroplanes a day - I'm soooo busy, I'm soooo stressed - I need a break, I need to call in sick, I need more money - that will make me better!!!

Go ahead - go to the Muddle East - then see what REAL work is like. No potections, called to work 31 shifts in 30 days, great money - but REALLY high cost of living through 'keep up with the Jones' expectations.

You slack-a*sed wombats need to cop-on to yourselves and realise that you have exceptionally high paid jobs, for f***-all work, and really very little responsibility [your machines do all the work for you anyway].

Get real guys, and get back to the salt mines!!!

divingduck

27th Dec 2007, 08:38

I don't usually respond to such obvious trolls, but in this muppets case, I shall make an exception.

Go ahead - go to the Muddle East - then see what REAL work is like. No potections, called to work 31 shifts in 30 days, great money - but REALLY high cost of living through 'keep up with the Jones' expectations.

Just where on earth do you get your information?
No protection? We have CARS that would make AsA managers shudder if enforced.
31 shifts in 30 days? WTF are you talking about? We work generally 18 shifts PER MONTH! Work 2, 24 hours off, work 2, 24 hours off, work 2, rest day off then 3 full days off....and it keeps on rolling just like that.
The AsA controllers I talk to would kill to have our ME rosters.
The ME controllers would walk if given a roster like the ones the AsA guys have to endure.
They cannot go on strike, it's illegal in our home, democratic country, so the only way that they CAN make a point is NOT to come in and do overtimes.

And that keep up with the Jones' quip...when you know what you are talking about come back and chat.

You slack-a*sed wombats need to cop-on to yourselves and realise that you have exceptionally high paid jobs, for f***-all work, and really very little responsibility [your machines do all the work for you anyway].

As for that comment...the only reason that I have actually pasted it here is so that when you wake up and realise what a **** you have been, you can't delete it, it will be here for all to see.

Don't go away angry, just go away:ugh:

undervaluedATC

27th Dec 2007, 09:45

diving duck,directnospeed, thanks guys,

for a couple of hours I thought it was only me who could'nt believe what this person is saying.

And you're right, we would love the ME rosters.
my roster
1500-2300
1130-1930
0600-1300 back that night 2300-0600
2 days off [so long as I say no to the overtimes]
repeat over and over and over

so that's 12.5 between the first two shifts, 10.5 between the 2nd and 3rd, and 10 hours during which I'm supposed to sleep during the day so I can be awake all night - just like I was 6 nights ago.

and by the by, my average number aircraft for the shift is 16+/-2 on frequency at all times.

But I'm used to pilot thinking they are the only one I'm looking after :rolleyes:

"the machines do all the work"
Oh My God! Have you ever been inside an air traffic control centre?

I think you're confusing your work with mine.

I repeat:
well informed you are not.

BeGoneTFN

27th Dec 2007, 12:18

Wellconcerned,

Please be advised that I look forward to the negotiations from the point of view that rather than be treated as crap, ASA management may in fact realise that ATC's would prefer to be value adding despite their (managements) best efforts to run the place into the toilet!

Yes, I see the EBA as bringing this debacle to a close maybe the current state of affairs need to be made public!

Everyone is sick of the O/T, alot of people have been non contactable on days off for a long time, just because we are shift workers why should we be expected to keep the organisation afloat on RDO's.

I could work every day of the week if I so desired, but guess what, fatigue management ASA style is a sham.

This ATC now has a life. :)

BeGoneTFN

27th Dec 2007, 12:27

Curious.

Based on previous posts I thought Wellconcerned was within the inner circle at ASA, good buddies with the Kiwi and game show host.

Now I'm convinced.

divingduck

27th Dec 2007, 13:58

This thread is probably a great recruitment tool for the Middle East control providers....

Thank you wellconcerned, truly, wee need all the bodies that we can get:E

to all the overworked Aussie controlers out there, here is a copy of our roster...
MMAANNROOO
M= 0630 til 1430
A= 1430 til 2230
N= 2230 til 0630

If I am not mistaken, all three ME countries "big kids" (area controllers) work similar rosters.
They are the best rosters that I have worked in 26 years...(except for the old outstations where we didn't do doggos)
We (UAE control) also get paid overtime, and get time in lieu for working on Public Holidays vice any additional payment (GCAA staff, Serco get more leave guaranteed and don't get the additional PHs)

Your days off are yours...swap a couple of shifts, and you can fly off to just about anywhere in Europe, the subcontinent and Africa. but if you prefer to stay in OZ...turn the phone off!:ok:

Much Ado

27th Dec 2007, 14:42

When I first read wellconcerned's moronic post my first reaction was to reach for my moderators light saber and banish him to an alternative reality.

Then I saw Odie Juan Karaoke's wonderful reply and decided you guys can deal with him adequately all by yourselves.:ok:

I just REALLY hope he is in fact AsA 'management':rolleyes: and will reap that which he sows here when 27 more ATCOs race off to the ME:E

Did I hear right recently fellas...90% payrise recently in DXB ATC?

Track Coastal

28th Dec 2007, 04:00

Mate, that was seriously funny (and made the point). :p:D:):ok::E

Was that alcohol induced?

WELLCONCERNED..... http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/masturbate.gif

Quokka

28th Dec 2007, 10:30

Call in the Federal Police? Oh please, bring it on...

But you just might want to warn certain Line Managers so that they can get some legal advice... and legal representation... before the boys in blue arrive.

Last time I checked, False Pretences and Creating a False Belief were Criminal Offences.

...and on the subject of living in the Middle East, Monsieur Le Duck has written it to perfection.

My experience... life is rich in culture, surrounded by interesting, intelligent, fun people successful in life in many different ways. I've never worked a better roster in my whole ATC career and I'm healthier and happier for it. And yes, my Net Income-after-Expenses more than doubled after stepping off the plane in this golden land... oh... and did I mention? I don't pay income tax... because there isn't any.

divingduck

28th Dec 2007, 15:41

That will be monsieur le canard to you!:ok:

See you on the doggo tonight...then another one tomorrow and 6 days off....rostered days off mind you, try getting that back in OZ:E

divingduck

28th Dec 2007, 21:27

Much Ado, the Dubai guys didn't really get a 90% payrise.
It was about a 70% of their basic pay, which makes up only a part of their total package.
Mind you, they are now on 209,160 Aussie dollars, tax free...even with the shocking conversion rate out of the yankee dollar:yuk:

There are probably a few overworked Ausie approach guys out there that wouldn't mind that kind of pay packet:E (hey all you guys in Perth!)

blind freddy

28th Dec 2007, 22:12

I just want to put this into perspective from a conspiracy point of view.

Since before the last EBA negotiations, when TFN first came to the job, Civil Air has been warning of the impending staffing shortages. This was done through correspondence, and also at high level face to face meetings. The response from AsA was always, "Don't tell us how to run our business, we will take care of it, we are on top of it."

Despite Civil Airs' repeated warnings, almost nothing and certainly not enough has been done to increase staff.

And that is the main point, increase staff.

Asa has a policy of training just enough staff to replace what they believe will be the retirements in the next 12 months. If they believe 30 people will retire next year then they will train 30 new recruits. Of course, the problem is not all of those recruits will rate. Getting quality recruits is another topic in itself.

Then take into account people just leaving because they are sick of being mistreated, sick of doing the job, going overseas, retiring early, deciding on a career change etc, etc.

So we have the problem of not replacing what is now becoming a wave of resignations and retirements, and no allowance for well documented increases in traffic.

Now, all of a sudden, it is all the Air Traffic Controllers fault for deliberately trying to sabotage the system. Give me break.

TFN and his cohorts have let this system run into the ground, over several years. They are the ones that will ultimately have to bear responsibility.

Buster Hyman

28th Dec 2007, 23:55

:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

Well, I guess it's not too late to withdraw my application....

max1

29th Dec 2007, 02:50

Sorry to sound like Dick Smith but I am led to believe that ASA used to use a retirement age of 50 (not that most went)to forward plan on staffing, it was noted that people were staying on longer and so lately they began using 55 This looked better on the books, less staff = less wages. Management looked clever as wages went down and traffic went up and up. Doing more with less.
Controllers at the workface and Civilair could see a looming crisis years ago.Management got LARGE bonuses and referred to their infallible model to avoid doing anything . Management, at the level that saw what was happening, were loath to rock the boat, due to the shoot the messenger mentality at ASA.
Upper management believe they have controllers in 'golden' handcuffs and that we,like them, are only motivated by money. They haven't looked around to see that in real wage terms we have been going backwards for ten years.
So then what happened?
Several factors including the growth of the stockmarket, astute investing, the age profiles, and benefits of the CSS super scheme put older controllers in the position of accessing early retirement. Also due to the reduction of real wages , younger controllers have started to leave.
Finally, long-term disenchantment with TFN and his cronies lining their own pockets whilst crying poor for anyone else, combined with the utter waste and inefficiencies associated with the latest wonder restructure (SDE) , crap rosters,constant calls at home to do O/T to prop up a management induced staffing crisis, the AWA/ALM debacle(people with 1 -2 years experience becoming supervisors as long as they signed AWA's), and the huge growth in O/S money and people are walking out the door.
There is a world wide shortage of controllers. That is why we are interested in the next EBA, if there is isn't a big improvement many can just walk out the door and work somewhere else.
What is happening now, IS NOT some quasi industrial action, controllers can not physically prop up the lack of staffing anymore( too few controllers) . It is that bad.
Management , TFN and K Mc, have finally faced the truth and are asking for our help in keeping the airspace open. This is something we have already been doing for years whilst asking them to increase staffing. They have accused us, et al Civilair, for years of having some industrial agenda in our complaints to increasing staffing. You reap what you sow.

WELLCONCERNED

29th Dec 2007, 05:07

Ah, Mr Duck,

Nice to see you're working in a cushy little Muddle East number.

I have worked in a few 'not so comfortable' operations there - I have, through the years, worked in Oman, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Qatar and Saudi. I have worked for PanAm, Serco, Johnson Control Industries, ICAO [in Saudi] and direct to the Qatar DGCA. I have worked tower, approach and en-route. So I know a 'little' about 'life' in the Muddle East, and how fickle pay and conditions can be - and quickly it can go sour when another company, or another country runs short of controllers and the 'exodus is on'. I also know that as comfortable a lifestyle as it appears, it can go sour VERY quickly - try taking a camera into the ops room, and watch how quickly you get deported.

Watch how quickly the tax man springs on you when you return if you have not been REAL careful in how you structure your affairs in Australia. Non-residency for tax purposes can be REAL tricky.

Watch how veangeful Airservices can be when you come back, cap in hand, looking for a job - better have contingency plans in place.

So, anyone thinking of leaving Australia's fair shores should be just a little bit wary of the 'it's a wonderful life' hype. Yes, it can be, but I can put you in touch with several close colleagues who were thoroughly screwed over in their Muddle East contracts.

Regarding ATC staffing here in Australia - you have all seen my previous postings on this subject [not on this thread - you guys are just TOO easy to wind up!!]. I agree that controllers should not have to work the inordinate amount of overtime and EDs you do - and I agree that the training has been left in such an abysmal state that it will be almost impossible to recover.

I'm well aware of [and well concerned about] Kinny's predisposition to changing the work ethos of ATCs - especially the notion of a common 'doggo' rating, so that full endorsements are not required to man parallel sectors when 'the machine does the work for you anyway'.

I'm not saying it's not a valid concept - but it needs to be introduced as part of a complete restructuring of ATC working conditions - and NOT as a means to fill rostering gaps that have been created by complete management incompetence.

Anyway - good to see I'm still able to pull your levers from time to time [and yes, the Muddle East experience above IS genuine].

DirtyPierre

29th Dec 2007, 05:31

And then the Airservices CEO will whine "It's not my fault. When I took over I thought I was getting command of the pride of the global air navigation service providers fleet - the mighty "Starship Airservices". I plotted out (with my handpicked bridge team) a wondrously wonderful voyage to the star system called 'Service Delivery Environment'. Little did I know that when I called for Warp Factor 9 the Warp Drive would emit a loud, wet fart and blow up in a cloud of TIBA smoke and cascading essential services shutdowns. My predecessors actually left me in charge of the busted-ar$e 'Spacewreck Airservices' ***snivel, whimper, dribble***
I want to thank you for a good chuckle. It seems this is exactly what he said.....just with different words.:D:D

divingduck

29th Dec 2007, 06:02

I have worked in a few 'not so comfortable' operations there - I have, through the years, worked in Oman, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Qatar and Saudi. I have worked for PanAm, Serco, Johnson Control Industries, ICAO [in Saudi] and direct to the Qatar DGCA. I have worked tower, approach and en-route. So I know a 'little' about 'life' in the Muddle East, and how fickle pay and conditions can be - and quickly it can go sour when another company, or another country runs short of controllers and the 'exodus is on'. I also know that as comfortable a lifestyle as it appears, it can go sour VERY quickly - try taking a camera into the ops room, and watch how quickly you get deported.
Nice to hear that you have all that experience, give me a PM and we can chat... I have been here 10 years now in 2 of those places you mentioned, we must have mutual friends.
Regarding the photos in the ops room...I regularly take photos and so do many of my workmates...not just with a mobile phone camera either:=

Over the past couple of years, the "exodus is on" has spawned fairly impressive pay rises, and will continue to do so as the outrageous growth in traffic continues.

Thanks for the tax advice, I have a very good accountant and I am still undecided whether or not I want to return to Oz to live.
Having another passport is a real bonus.

Watch how veangeful Airservices can be when you come back, cap in hand, looking for a job - better have contingency plans in place.
Have already seen it...but these guys that are currently in positions of power will not be there that long. Not that I ever wish to work back in OZ. I have too many friends being f***ed over by everyone from their line managers to the CEO of the company to even consider it.
I figure, seriously now, that in a year or so, AsA's new management will be contacting just about everyone with ATC/FSO experience wherever they are in the world and offering enormous wads of cash to come and work.
Don't think it will happen? Look at what has happened in Norway. Management took after the AsA model of management, made some serioulsy stupid decisions and pi$$ed off their workforce.
The workforce responded by walking out the door...staffing crisis naturally occurs.
Norwegian government takes an interest in what is occurring and sacks the top end of their management team. New guy put in place to unf**k the system.
He does that by telling the controllers that they are the most valuable commodity that they have and starts giving them payrises.
He personally contacts all the Norwegians overseas, mainly Dubai, Ab Dab and Muscat and asks them to come back, he will pick up all the bills for the move and pay out any bonds that they may incur by leaving a contract early.
Check out how much they get paid now, with another big rise due this March.
That is why there is going to be a shortage in the ME...That is why there will be big rises here to retain and attract staff.

I can put you in touch with several close colleagues who were thoroughly screwed over in their Muddle East contracts.

And I can put you in touch with a lot more...current controllers, that have, and are doing very well, thank you very much.

Anyway - good to see I'm still able to pull your levers from time to time [and yes, the Muddle East experience above IS genuine].

Go for it...I love a good debate, its like fencing (that'll be the sword-fighting stuff, not banging in pickets) with an unarmed man:E

undervaluedATC

29th Dec 2007, 07:13

wellconcerned,

I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a Dr. Jekyl & Mr Hyde thing going on with you posts. That last one was no where near as insulting, defamatory and ill-informed as your previous ones. Do you have one more than one person writing under your username?

AirNoServicesAustralia

29th Dec 2007, 09:24

I have to be careful here as last time I spoke about the Middle East on an Australian Thread I was banned. So be careful guys.

All I want to say Well Concerned is that I have been here in the pit for over 5 years and things have changed a great deal. Whereas it used to be a real chore to live here, now you can get everything you can get at home, and you can live a life which is different but in many ways the same as what you would live at home.

As Duck said the roster here is the best one I have ever worked, and if you want to you can do some overtime at 2,000 dirhams a pop (700 Aussie dollars tax free, off course minus the $50 Mixed grill you buy for the boys at work (Thanks Duck :ok:))

Have taken the kids and parents etc all into the ops room and they all took photos, sat at the console etc. Been here over 5 years and yet to see anyone deported at or away from work.

Glad I left ASA five years ago. Am working my backside off in the hope that if I ever go back I don't have to go back as a floor controller. The way they are being treated is an absolute disgrace and hopefully one day, there will be a whole lot of incompetent pen pushers, who became managers purely to get away from traffic since they couldn't separate their butt cheeks, all line up at the dole office hoping to get a management job at the local Safeway.

Good luck guys, you all deserve better.

WELLCONCERNED

29th Dec 2007, 20:05

Sorry Diving Duck - can't do PMs - I took up flying for a living after ATC [some say I saw the light - others said other things!] and current employer has a rather nasty habit of deeply vetting e-mail for various reasons. Glad to hear life has improved in the ME. I had a friend who had lived with his family in Muscat for 10 years - inadvertently took a photo of the [armed!] military liason officer in the ops room - was deported within 48 hours. Had an aquaintence [he wasn't there long enough to become a friend] in Abu Dhabi - his wife complained about the early morning call to prayer - it was waking her young baby - they we deported that evening. Still suggest you be cautious.

Undervalued ATC - well spotted. As I said to DD, I love to wind you guys up - you bite SO HARD it makes me p*ss myself laughing. Do you know how many times I sat of 'your side' of the argument as a controller, and listened to the rhetoric about 'overpaid and underworked'. I like to stir the hornet's nest every now and again to see how much paranoia remains in the system.

PPruNe is a rumour network - an agony aunt column. I know from recent experience that only one person at Airsevices 'officially' vets the site, and I know from not so recent experience that only a VERY SMALL fraction of the identified discontent manages to find its way to senior management. They are too preoccupied with 'more important' matters [bonuses, etc] to worry about 'apparent whinging and griping' on a rumour site.

Scurvy.D.Dog

29th Dec 2007, 21:44

WELLCONCERNED 15th August 2007, 20:51 My source says both the CEO - AND GM-ATC are leaving before the end of this year - regardless of election outcome [CEO had had about enough of the organisation this time last year!]. …. Less than 40hours left! …. or was that just a woof-in-the-breeze wind-up too? :hmm: I love to wind you guys up - you bite SO HARD it makes me p*ss myself laughing. … you, TOOL, are the only one laughing at such a serious situation! :* :mad:
.
.
…. howbout' you run off and piss yourself elsewhere! .... leave this issue to adults!!!! :suspect:

WELLCONCERNED

30th Dec 2007, 08:23

well Scurvey,

Looks like you got me. The election was a bit later in the year than I had anticipated, and the new Minister is still picking up the pieces.

For 'end of the year', substitite - very early in 2008. The Minister needs to bang some heads together, and also fins a suitable candidate for Board Chairman.

Oh, and in case you think ATC staffing will be the 'issue du jour' - think again. The Minister will have made his decision on a range of issues - including ATC staffing - but mostly around airspace [mis]management.

Re the wind ups - good to see I've managed to catch you too - I'm falling about laughing as I type....:D

divingduck

31st Dec 2007, 15:28

Seems James Thurber's creation has got out again....get back onto the medication Wellconcerned!

Happy New Year to everybody!

Baileys

31st Dec 2007, 16:02

Now the mainstream news.com.au (front page) has a hold of the story...

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22993355-2,00.html

Scathing letter outlines safety threat...
Situation compared to that of Africa...
Authority denies safety compromised...
Lack of adequate staffing blamed...

Authority rejects claims of mismanagement, safety risk

Airservices spokesman Terry O'Connor admitted there was a shortage of trained controllers, but he rejected claims of mismanagement and said safety was not at risk.
"We're aware of the issues they have raised. It's something that's been a potential concern for us for some months," Mr O'Connor said.
"But this suggestion that we're somehow trying to hide the situation is simply not true."
Peter Gibson, a spokesman for Australia's air safety regulator, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, said he was not aware of a shortage of air traffic controllers.
"Shortages are the job of Airservices Australia to manage," Mr Gibson said. "Our responsibility is to make sure whatever they do is done within the appropriate safety standards."
Airservices said that it had increased its intake of trainees and was looking at trying to attract controllers from overseas.

Should be an interesting year for Australian ATC; both ATC and Canberra. Good luck.

Hempy

1st Jan 2008, 00:04

Safety warning from air traffic controllers over travel

AIRCRAFT carrying hundreds of people are flying over populated areas across the country without supervision as air traffic controllers struggle to keep up with the workload in the skies.

And the controllers say Australia's proud record of airline safety is in jeopardy because the body overseeing the nation's airways is not training enough controllers.

The Herald Sun has seen a scathing letter from the national union of air traffic controllers to Airservices Australia complaining of a "critical threat" to continued flight safety.

Airservices Australia is a government-owned corporation that employs 90 per cent of Australia's air traffic controllers.

Civil Air Australia president Michael Haines told Airservices Australia that airspace is being left uncontrolled "on an almost daily basis due to the lack of adequate staffing".

"At the same time, I fear that Airservices is concealing from regulatory and safety organisations the fact that airspace is closing due to low staff levels," Mr Haines wrote.

Airlines are notified when airspace is not controlled and they must decide whether to continue flying through the area.

The Herald Sun has learned airspace over Townsville, Cairns, Mackay, Coolangatta south to Coffs Harbour, central Australia, western NSW and Launceston has been uncontrolled at times during the past month.

A pilot claimed that services normally provided by Melbourne tower were unavailable because of staff shortages on at least one occasion last month.

CAA said the boom in air travel was putting extra strain on an air control system already at breaking point. Some stressed controllers are deliberately avoiding phone calls on their days off so they can have a break.

A Qantas pilot, who declined to be named, compared the air traffic control situation in Australia to Africa.

"It's a bit backwards for a developed country like Australia," he said.

"The fact that nothing has happened is down to the pilots and the air traffic controllers doing the best they can with what they've got."

Airservices spokesman Terry O'Connor admitted there was a shortage of trained controllers, but he rejected claims of mismanagement and said safety was not at risk.

"We're aware of the issues they have raised. It's something that's been a potential concern for us for some months," Mr O'Connor said.

"But this suggestion that we're somehow trying to hide the situation is simply not true."

Peter Gibson, a spokesman for Australia's air safety regulator, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, said he was not aware of a shortage of air traffic controllers.

"Shortages are the job of Airservices Australia to manage," Mr Gibson said.

"Our responsibility is to make sure whatever they do is done within the appropriate safety standards."

Airservices said that it had increased its intake of trainees and was looking at trying to attract controllers from overseas.

"Airservices Australia is a government-owned corporation that employs 90 per cent of Australia's air traffic controllers." Anyone know who employs the other 10 %? Are they hiring??

:ugh:

Nuckinfuts

1st Jan 2008, 00:17

Could the other 10% be employed by the RAAF?

Hempy

1st Jan 2008, 00:42

yeah good point, and I know they are hiring :}

makespeed250kt

1st Jan 2008, 02:41

I see CASA has its head firmly planted in the ground, again!!! What a sad state of affairs.

man on the ground

1st Jan 2008, 09:24

Anyone know who employs the other 10 %?Bahran, Dubai & CERCO - they're just waiting for start dates!

Buster Hyman

1st Jan 2008, 09:30

Ah, but give CASA their due, if there's blue tailed 767's to ground, you can count on them!:hmm:

;)

max1

1st Jan 2008, 10:56

My favourite part of the article is where the ASA spindoctor says " We have a fatigue management system which is designed to ensure controllers do not work more than a safe number of hours" What he neglects to say is that even though it is designed that way, that is not how it is used.
I believe the company that produced it is not at all happy with the way ASA use their software. One example is a controller coming in early to work a night shift, 2300- 0600 vice the following days 0700-1500, funnily enough due staff shortage.
The aisle supervisor noticed in the morning that the 0700 shift had not been deleted from the controllers roster, meaning the machine had him having an hours break and then starting work again. Out of curiousity he got the software to check the fatigue score. The machine worked out that the controllers fatigue would have improved after having a one hour break and then working an 8 hour shift. That is correct , this fatigue management systems answer was you would be less tired at 1500 than 0600 even though you hadn't slept.
An answer was eventually forthcoming,(small panic) that your body clock resets at sunrise.
So next time you are out very late , think as long as I can see the sun come up, I can last til tonights sleep.
There are loads of examples of the fatigue tool being manipulated to come under the magical 80 fatigue score. person X will be over tonight , manipulate machine until it is not over 80. How? Finish person 15/30/45/60 minutes (whatever it takes) early on their morning shift(leaving morning shift short!). The fact that the controller started at 0500 doesn't seem to matter, or , instead of starting at 0000 come in at 0100.
Fatigue management is regarded by management as something to get around rather than something to enforce.

Driscoll

1st Jan 2008, 11:04

I'm the first to be critical of AsA management and am aware that CASA is a spineless organisation at the moment (doggo staffing, launy tower hours etc), but CASA aren't responsible for holding AsA to account over staffing. So long as all processes are legally complied with CASA won't care about TIBA airspace, just like they don't care when Airlines cancel services. It is up to the customers & shareholders to hold management accountable.

Hempy

2nd Jan 2008, 03:47

Its a national disgrace that a capital city international airport has insuficient ATC staff. The situation really warrants a senate investigation and the public hanging of those found guilty of creating this problem.

"It's a national disgrace that capital city international airports have insufficient ATC staff," one pilot said.
"This cannot continue for too much longer before safety is compromised. Surely it's time for all parties to sit down and figure out a solution."

A bit of "licence", but probably correct direct.no.speed. We are being trolled.

Louis Cypher

2nd Jan 2008, 09:13

The inside word is that the ATC college does not have the formal go ahead for ANY courses in 2008 yet :eek: Lots of talk being kicked around, but nothing in concrete yet.

Might be worth a pointed question to TFN in the current press debate, "EXACTLY how many new ATCs will be trained this year?"

Stationair8

2nd Jan 2008, 09:32

Keep in mind Peter Gibson from Casa is a tool, who would not know if bum was on fire. He would not know anything about ATC, training ATC etc
I reckon we will see a nice little ATC strike sometime this year, lets see how the big boys in ASA in CB handle this. Imagine the problems if the domestic airline system shut down for a few hours or a few days because of no ATC.
Bet Macquarie Bank, Qantas, Virgin and a few others would be very happy and so would their legal teams.
2008 the year if the industrial dispute.

BeGoneTFN

2nd Jan 2008, 10:50

Careful Stationair,

Wellconcerned will have the AFP onto you!:=

RAAFASA

2nd Jan 2008, 11:14

Just to add to what Direct.no.speed wrote, ask how many of the latest recruits (excluding the 1 or 2 from OS) came from the RAAF.

And then ask the RAAFies about their manning problems. It's just robbing Peter to pay Paul, somewhere services will deteriorate due to lack of staffing.

At purely military bases the reduced service will largely be felt by military only, but at the joint user bases (Darwin, Townsville and occasionally Williamtown, depending on who you ask) military controllers handle all civilian traffic for the area as well (which in DN's and TL's case far outweighs the military traffic - around 90% civil).

And don't buy the company line of "xx number of recruits to replace xx number of retirements/resignations" - not all recruits will pass the course and of those that do, some will still fail to get rated. We should be training 10% more than we need to allow for this.

Plazbot

2nd Jan 2008, 17:31

xx number of recruits to replace xx number of retirements/resignations" - not all recruits will pass the course and of those that do, some will still fail to get rated.

Very good point. Of the 36 that started my course, 7 of us have ratings.

undervaluedATC

2nd Jan 2008, 19:10

An enquiring Journo (or please God, research assistant for the Minister of Transport) should also ask "What's the recruitment/selection timeframe?" - In my case 12 years ago, 4 stage selection took 1 year!

Then they should ask "What's the duration of the college simulator training?" [again, about 1 year]

Then they should ask "What's the average age of your controllers? How many will retire in the next two years?"

And that's before they even try and ascertain how many are thinking about going overseas.......

Love that quote from AsA spokesman something along the lines of "yes, there is a staff shortage. No, it is not due to mismanagement" - Well, who's fault is it?

Showa Cho

2nd Jan 2008, 21:06

I wonder how long CASA is going to bury its head in the sand. I can't believe they said there has been no safety issue when I know that lots of aircraft, including RPT jets, have been flying through TIBAs. I think Mr and Mrs Citizen would be alarmed to know that they were out in the ether......no safety problem though. :ugh:

And staffing - jeeeze....AsA have been told for the last 2 or 3 years that this was going to happen. Now they play dumb and say that we didn't know, but will try and fix it. Too late people, the horse (or in this case, air traffic controller) has bolted!

The staffing problems and many TIBAs are the direct result of level 3 managers going ahead with the new SDE airspace against the better advice of the project managers to wait. The controllers too asked questions of how they were going to staff the newly designed sectors. Management answer - we'll do it with lots of overtime. They had to say 'YES' to protect their bonuses - don't want to look bad further up the chain, do we?

Well, the ATCs have had a gut full and have therefore opted not to take massive overtime and therefore give up time with their families and friends. No longer will the system be propped up by people trying to do the right thing by their mates - it has gotten beyond that now. A few years ago, people would cover shifts to ensure their mates, and the travelling public, were looked after. Now though, that good will has been lost.

The Service Delivery Line Managers should step down immediately and grab a headset. Either that, or should not be paid bonuses this time around. Bonuses are for performance.

Here's how you performed - poorly.

Pushing ahead against the informed, professional and accurate advice of your project team is not good.

Relying on overtime to cover KNOWN staffing issues is not good.

Constant airspace closures and the safety issues involved is not good.

Getting CASA to cover your ar$e is not good.

All time low morale leading to massive resignations an people wanting to leave is not good.

TFN - you must do something. You can't train your way out of it - the time to do that was 3 to 5 years ago when the organisation was told of the impending problem. No one in AsA management should be getting any bonuses until this is fixed. Whatever the ATCs ask for in the upcoming Certified Agreement negotiations, give it to them - they are the ones who deserve a bonus.

Thanks for reading.

Showa.

peuce

2nd Jan 2008, 23:03

Happy New Year all ... I feel thoroughly refreshed. Now where were we?

Two points:

If CASA don't believe there is a safety issue with RPT jets flying in TIBA airspace, why don't they permanently designate it G Airspace ... which has an even greater safety margin than TIBA?
Apart from the above, how would you guys suggest that ASA go about fixing the current staffing problem ... in really practical ways?

undervaluedATC

3rd Jan 2008, 00:25

peuce, regards a quick fix, I don't think there really is one (see my post above about lead in times just to get to the field [2 years], and on some groups it takes up to 3 years to get ratings on all the airspace the group is responsible for!)

it has been suggested (more than once) to DEAF EARS SO FAR, that some of our training support staff are very familar with our TAAATS equipment, know a lot of the airspace already and generally have a pretty good grip of sep standards. But if you take the trainers into the field, who trains the new people?

The other thing that could be done is AsA could try to get ex-ATC's to come back (something they have been notorious for NOT doing prior to now). And most of those who left had pretty good reasons for doing so.

Or they could try poaching international ATC's.... except they won't pay what O/S ASP's do. :*

Showa Cho

3rd Jan 2008, 00:29

peuce - it cannot be fixed short term. It needed to be addressed long ago. SDE was meant to be the way management could keep controller numbers down and thereby increasing profit as the industry boomed in Australia. As it turns out, we actually need more controllers now. Who would have thought that people on the floor may have been right.......

So, to fix it, we need to pump money and resources into the area that has been neglected - training. This has been a low, low priority for too long now. It doesn't pay off short term to pour money into training, that's why the training system has been left to wither away for so long. We need an expert team from all streams into the college on 2 or 3 year rotations. It should not be seen as a shaft posting, but one that you can be proud of - you are teaching the new breed.

Thanks,

Showa.

Hempy

3rd Jan 2008, 07:58

it has been suggested (more than once) to DEAF EARS SO FAR, that some of our training support staff are very familar with our TAAATS equipment, know a lot of the airspace already and generally have a pretty good grip of sep standards.

Some have held licences, a lot have been on courses as well, but Airservices have stated that they aren't going to spend money training people who have already failed, regardless of the experience they have gained in the interim..

:ugh: <-- so appropriate

missy

3rd Jan 2008, 09:16

Unfortunately ATC training is seen as a cost rather than as an investment. it should be seen as an investment, an investment in the NAS within which we operate.

An ANSP can never have too many controllers. It is how you use them that is important. Firstly, never take them for granted, respect their skills and knowledge. ANSPs need controllers to develop better procedures, develop better (read more efficient) airpsace, develop more efficent and user friendly HMI, develop better documentation, introduce new technologies, respond to increasing traffic levels or different traffic patterns, provide career breaks and if they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.

Hempy

3rd Jan 2008, 11:31

An ANSP can never have too many controllers. It is how you use them that is important. Firstly, never take them for granted, respect their skills and knowledge. ANSPs need controllers to develop better procedures, develop better (read more efficient) airpsace, develop more efficent and user friendly HMI, develop better documentation, introduce new technologies, respond to increasing traffic levels or different traffic patterns, provide career breaks and if they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.

Two words preclude all you have written, sadly. Executive bonus.

divingduck

3rd Jan 2008, 19:23

The other thing that could be done is AsA could try to get ex-ATC's to come back (something they have been notorious for NOT doing prior to now). And most of those who left had pretty good reasons for doing so.

Bang on...the only problem was that when some of the o/s Ozzie ATCs applied, they were told that they did not fit the "profile" required by HR.
That would be the same profile that resulted in the big failure rates with some of the last courses I gather?

The questions should be asked of the two muppets that logged all that TA and all those frequent flyer points on their "Global Search" for ATCs...Just who on earth were you trying to employ?
All the ex-Aussie area controllers that were told to p!$$ off, or the Romanian, South African etc Tower and Approach guys, with little or no Area experience, that you offered jobs to?

I heard that the only Aussie that was given a gig back in Oz, was failed in the sim, possibly due to the male member envy of the checky? Is that the same checky that had the famous but now unmentionable cluster f***-up some years ago in a location between Brisbane and Cairns? (if it isn't the same guy, sorry for bringing that up:E)

Showa cho...just about too late to fix this problem. Sorry to say but the lead in times required means that it is all going to get a lot worse before it gets better, BUT with the current donkeys in charge...I'll leave it up to you to work out what is actually going to happen.
Whoever said that Australian airspace is like Africa, is pretty close to the mark.
Not the controlling abilities of the coal face guys and gals, but the ineptitude of current management that is staggering belief.
During a recent flight, we launched through the UAE, Oman, Pakistan, India, Thailand, Singapore and Indonesia before hitting the "Worlds best practice" FIR. Funnily enough, as soon as we crossed the fence, we changed level by 500 feet...and cruised at a VFR level for several hours...ahhh, the benefits of TIBA became immediately apparent. I mean no more listening to those pesky ATCs...because there were none listening, the pilots must have been having a ball up the front:ugh:
Real first world service industry standards...NOT!

...If they still have a few "spares", loan them to another ANSP, IATA, ICAO so that skills and knowledge acquired overseas can be applied in Australia.

Missy, that is priceless! The absolute last thing that the current AsA management want is Australian overseas experienced controllers coming back to OZ.
Imagine the angst that finding out opinions from people that have actually worked and experienced overseas systems differ greatly from their cherished and entrenched positions?
How on earth could they cope with that? I'll give you a tip....never let the situation occur where it could happen, that's how.:hmm:

The Euronator

3rd Jan 2008, 21:06

I heard that the only Aussie that was given a gig back in Oz, was failed in the sim, possibly due to the male member envy of the checky?

I think you will find there is one Aussie controller ex Maastricht, that is successfully out of the sim & getting close for checkout.

Hempy

3rd Jan 2008, 22:50

Missy, that is priceless! The absolute last thing that the current AsA management want is Australian overseas experienced controllers coming back to OZ.
Imagine the angst that finding out opinions from people that have actually worked and experienced overseas systems differ greatly from their cherished and entrenched positions?
How on earth could they cope with that? I'll give you a tip....never let the situation occur where it could happen, that's how.:hmm:

duck, there is a simple reason. Airservices are pissed off that they spent $300000 training you to be an ATC, skills which you subsequently took overseas. Therefore, you have profited from their investment. And you have the gall to want to come back?

p.s this is not my personal opinion, so don't shoot the messenger. I have, however, heard conversations involving "decision makers" along those lines.

Funk

4th Jan 2008, 08:42

To those that think I robbed AsA of their training investment..f@$* them. I gave them 10 years 1 month service and 2 marriages.

In 2000/2001 I worked 300+ hours overtime just to help the unit through airspace transition. Then came more projects, changes, leave embargoes and more requests for overtime (this was coincidently the time that my 2nd wife said uncle).

My daughter on a recent visit over here said that I was much happier and settled, she related stories of how and her sister used to go running to their rooms hiding when I got home from work because I was always so grumpy and angry.

I gave AsA what they wanted and when I could no longer cope with the crap I was left with no choice but to seek O/S employment. I lament leaving my colleagues short handed.

However despite all the problems I face from living and working in the middle east pales when compared to working for the 1st world's 3rd world ANSP (aka AsA).

Scurvy.D.Dog

4th Jan 2008, 08:59

Funk ... Anecdotally, I reackon the numbers of those who have/are suffering as you suggest would be frightening! :mad: :mad: :{
.
.... two of my closest mates in the last 12 months .... same! :sad: :sad: :{
.
.... the 'nature of the beast' (job) is not really the issue, it is/always has been the culture of use and abuse (reasonableness of total workload) of the coalface ..... a double edged sword (professionalism) for the coalface .... is it worth it when that is the result?? ... mores the point ... should it be allowed to get to that point?

AirNoServicesAustralia

4th Jan 2008, 11:59

Hempy, the reason there are so many Oz expat controllers is that we all got sick of the complete mismanagement of ASA, and the constant penny pinching. The EBA "negotiations" where they would give a 3% "increase" in return for removing conditions that had been fought for and won in the past. Splitting of the workforce to the point where we were all on different scales and as a result different salaries for doing the same job with similair experience levels. Not filling call outs because the minimum staffing requirements were only "guidelines".

They spent $300,000 training us, we passed and we returned a minimum of 5 years of service. We have moved on and have continued to be trained in all sorts of airspace the world over. We have all gained experience be it Centre supervisor, Incident investigation, Ab Initio Course instruction, Radar System Adaptation and so on.

Now if the decision makers in ASA don't want to get a further return on that $300,000 they spent and the other hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on us since then they can keep their heads buried in the sand. But if they do, all they need to do is contact us with a realistic offer recognising our experience and knowledge, and we will consider the offer carefully. It just makes no sense to me that anyone would say that they don't want to take people back because they have lost in the past the money they spent training these people. Best way to resolve that situation would be to get them back (and fix the problems that caused them (and many more soon) to leave in the first place.)

Hempy

4th Jan 2008, 12:26

ANSA, I'm sure everyone who has left has a valid reason for doing so, but I'm a nobody. Address your thoughts to management, perhaps your insightful argument might sway their opinion (just don't hold your breath)

this is not my personal opinion, so don't shoot the messenger

divingduck

4th Jan 2008, 18:12

G'day old son.

I heard that the only Aussie that was given a gig back in Oz, was failed in the sim

That was the situation when I was back in OZ in December... From what the working controllers on that group said...it seemed to have been nothing to do with his controlling ability. As you say, he is now getting close to validating.
Draw your own conclusions...

flightfocus

4th Jan 2008, 23:03

You have to applaud all this new found honesty that TFN and the other drongo have finally found. :mad:

Lets hope that in a gesture of conscience and moral fortitude that BOTH give up the mega bonuses that are in line for.

Surely admitting that they have missed the game while feeding at the trough is enough for the Board (:eek:) and the incoming minister (:ok:) to remove the bonuses for LACK OF PERFORMANCE.

Bring on the Revolution !!!

Roger Standby

5th Jan 2008, 06:18

ANSA and Hempy... great to see you two talking to each other again. It's been far too long:ok:

peuce

5th Jan 2008, 08:19

Flightfocus,

"this new found honesty that TFN and the other drongo have finally found."

Please explain ???

Knackers

5th Jan 2008, 21:57

I just found our missing controllers....
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/20/1055828490947.html

Seems that long range planning is 3-4 years.

Scurvy.D.Dog

5th Jan 2008, 22:31

ahhhh yes .... ARG :rolleyes:, the WW report :rolleyes:, ATS costs :rolleyes:, Airports costs :rolleyes:, and the former fed government :hmm: :rolleyes:
.
... ties in with your Q peuce"this new found honesty that TFN and the other drongo have finally found."
.
Please explain ??? .... before Christmas in ML Centre ..... words to the effect that they were sorry, and that they had stuffed up resource planning! :suspect:
.
.. given that article from 03' (and miriads of other doc's in the system), readers can make up their own minds as to how innocent (oversight) this 'stuff up' really is :*
.
... how many went? .... 300+ (across the ANSP) since TFN arrived? ... nah couldn't be .... I mean you would have to see if the system could run effectively without those folks before marching them ..... wouldn't one?? :ugh:

undervaluedATC

15th Jan 2008, 03:15

no worries folks, our morale issues are solved!

the general manager is going to buy us coffee.

once a week until easter.

on a wednesday morning.

but only in the brisbane or melbourne canteen.

(sorry regionals/towers, you miss out again)

Hempy

15th Jan 2008, 08:52

Airservices Australia Vision and Values

Our Vision

To be a focused provider of air navigation and aviation services, with our competitive edge built on safety and the application of leading edge technology.

Our Values

We recognise the need for:

Keeping safety first
A collective, consistent sense of organisational identity
Strong, credible and accountable leadership
Our management and staff to be outward looking, both present and future oriented, and to embrace challenges proactively
A spirit of unity, teamwork and trust.

ER_BN

15th Jan 2008, 10:53

These idiots can even make cheap things free properly

New TIBA excuse...all controllers WED AM in BN CTR canteen...Not Likely!!

Apparently I have to be offered a voucher off my ALM to drink their coffee...and only normals not large ones

I think I would choke on it.....

I'll buy my own thanks!

undervaluedATC

15th Jan 2008, 19:21

now that I've learned just how token the token gesture really is (vouchers, small cups etc), ditto to what EN_BN said. I'll buy my own.

En-Rooter

15th Jan 2008, 22:54

There's a stack of Flight Service Officers around the aisle who could do ELW/BLA.

Nah, come to think of it, it makes more sense to paralyse the worlds third busiest air route than back down and admit you've made a monumental cock-up.

:D

turnleftnow

15th Jan 2008, 22:59

Wonder who's head is first on the chopping blocks?

Names?? Odds??

ferris

16th Jan 2008, 00:48

"This core concern for safety makes both NASA and healthcare unique among industries. Budgets and deadlines dominate every business, inescapably so, but the failure of most businesses is financial, not fatal. As we have forced the space program and healthcare into the usual business model, we squeezed out safety. Other businesses can “push the envelope” and fail without serious consequence - a product or service doesn't sell, they go out of business, employees and sometimes CEOs lose their jobs. Pushing the envelope in our field can maim or kill people."

from an essay by James O. Westgard, PhD, and Sten Westgard

undervaluedATC

16th Jan 2008, 06:25

"Wonder who's head is first on the chopping blocks?"

knowing this place, probably the controllers for being sick, or not available for overtime.:mad:

yarrayarra

16th Jan 2008, 20:05

"2 of the ML-SY sectors (Eildon Weir 123.75 and Benalla 132.2) had to combined for the evening gaggle 1700-1930 last night as there was only 1 endorsed controller"
Not just combined but TIBA from 0000 to 0545 this morning. And more resignations- golfing ATC's will improve their bunker play in the sand!

undervaluedATC

17th Jan 2008, 05:17

from the CEO at lunchtime:

Ken Mclean to stop being GM of ATC, going to role of General Manager of Safety = effective next Monday! :ouch:

wonder if that means no more free coffee?

also in the memo from TFN:
"In making this decision I am very mindful of the considerable efforts Ken has made in
laying the foundations of a substantial restructure of the Air Traffc Control Group."

now, to my mind, there is two ways to read that statement...... :E

Hempy

17th Jan 2008, 05:38

Ken Mclean to stop being GM of ATC, going to role of General Manager of Safety = effective next Monday! :ouch:

Any news of whats happening to the incumbent in that position atm (JH)?

Scurvy.D.Dog

17th Jan 2008, 06:54

JH = GM ATC from Monday

Hempy

17th Jan 2008, 06:59

Thanks Scurvy, I had hoped that was the case. He is a good guy, has worked traffic (good at it too); started in FS if memory is correct. Lets hope things start looking up.

WELLCONCERNED

17th Jan 2008, 08:25

Oh boy......

BAAAAADDDDD DECISION to appoint JH to this position.

Agree - nice guy - and agree has SOME experience - but nowhere NEAR enough to cope with the current politics of AsA.

This is a 'lamb to the slaughter' situation.

Also don't quite understand the 'sideways' move of Kin to GM Safety. He has absolutely NO qualification for the job.

I would HOPE that CASA exercises its mandate to vet senior mangement qualifications for key roles, as part of its Part 172 certification. I suspect Kin will fail that test.

I also suspect that Kin kept the 'incriminating photos' - how else could he stay in the organisation.....

Scurvy.D.Dog

17th Jan 2008, 08:26

I worked with him on ML Sectors years ago!

BeGoneTFN

17th Jan 2008, 08:41

Wellconcerned,

Agree with your comments, likeable bloke but its going to blow up in his face.

Talk about the poisoned chalice and being set up for a fall.

Kin is being well looked after by his buddy TFN, can't say the same for JH.

We passed the PNR a while ago anyway everyone has had it with the place.

Scurvy.D.Dog

17th Jan 2008, 09:15

Yup!
.
I'm guessing it was a case of you will, not would you like to! :hmm:

Aus ATC

17th Jan 2008, 09:40

Shuffling the deckchairs gives an opportunity to blame the previous management, or more likely "we are entering a new era of cooperation and will be moving forward to fix the staffing f**k ups". Kin can see out his days on the sidelines and make a dignified exit in a couple of months once memories start to fade.

And I give up - what does DKW stand for?

Maggott17

17th Jan 2008, 10:02

JH was an ADSO in Adelaide in the early 90's before going to Tassie training on the first ATC course there. Never good enough for FS.:ouch:

Nice bloke if you are one of his mates, but no nouse for dealing with real people and his head is bigger than it ought to be. Got lots of qualifications though so I guess that makes him the right man for the job in TFN's mind.

JH is a bigger high flier than GH who got shafted and went to CASA.

A bit of flak will bring him back to earth as quickly as a B-17 with its tail shot off.

ER_BN

17th Jan 2008, 10:36

Hmmm, Maggott17 I'm with you.

JH has already had the opportunity to prove himself in all care and no responsibility (i.e. SAFETY) and handballed all the hard ones back to Kin when he could have strutted his stuff!

Mindyou, poor old Kin not well served by the Game Show Host, can't believe he is still there after fronting the SDE Debacle in the ATC Planning network! The man has no shame ! Obviously ministerial responsibility does not extend to third level management!

Is it true that honesty will break out and the Australia Day awardee for knifing training is giving his medal back?? Thought not.

No ethics or morals in third level management!!

Of course no responsibility for AsA's woes belong to TFN or the invisible board.....The likes of NB-T only come out when there is a VIP soiree like the TWR SIM bash down south...

Fly_by_wire

17th Jan 2008, 11:14

who the hell is TFN?

Roger Standby

17th Jan 2008, 11:18

lol, that would mean "two first names" the CEO. Can't think of who NB-T is at the mo' tho'.

turnleftnow

17th Jan 2008, 11:42

Nick Burton Taylor

What is DKW??

groundstation

18th Jan 2008, 02:20

The Melbourne ATIS is broadcasting expect delays for aircraft departing to the North for the next 5 hours.

If you guys have run out of coffee, Lygon Str in Carlton has some good coffee if you need some despatched to the airport to keeps things a moving.

divingduck

18th Jan 2008, 04:14

Actually JH wasn't a graduate of the not lamented in it's passing TSIT.

He was on ST75 in Henty House in Melbourne...the second last one of these that ran at the same time as the TSIT shambles.

And yes, he was young...nicknamed the Milky Bar Kid in fact:E

Nepotisim

18th Jan 2008, 11:34

Article from the Syd Morn Herald................

Qantas has postponed all its flights into and out of Perth airport for a three-hour period from 11pm (WST) on Friday night, the airline's chief pilot says.

Qantas chief pilot Captain Chris Manning said the postponements, between 11pm (WST) on Friday and 2am (WST) on Saturday, were due to safety concerns prompted by the closure of the airspace in the Perth terminal area by air traffic controllers.

"Qantas had deemed it unsafe to operate in this area due the downgrading of controlled air space which would impact critical ascent and descent profiles," Captain Manning told AAP.

"While we regret the inconvenience to our passengers, Qantas always puts safety first," he said.

Air Services Australia (ASA) employs the air traffic controllers that usually monitor the air space around the airport.

ASA spokesman Bryan Nicholson said leaving the Perth airport air traffic control service unmanned for these three hours was unavoidable after three or four air traffic controllers due to work called in sick.

Mr Nicholson said pilots entering and leaving the air space would be self-monitoring the air space during this time.

Mr Nicholson said he was aware Qantas had postponed its flights but added that he knew of no other airline doing the same.

© 2008 AAP

Hempy

18th Jan 2008, 13:05

ouch :ouch: some $ there....

ATS C0273/08
PERTH TERMINAL CONTROL UNIT NOT AVBL
ATC, FIS AND ALERTING SERVICES NORMALLY PROVIDED BY PERTH TERMINAL
CONTROL UNIT IN CLASS C AIRSPACE WITHIN 36NM OF YPPH ARE NOT AVBL DUE
TO STAFF SHORTAGE. SERVICES AFFECTED: APPROACH AND DEPARTURES CONTROL
PROVIDED BY PERTH APPROACH ON FREQUENCIES 118.7, 123.6, 132.95 AND
135.25. PILOTS-IN-COMMAND ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR COLLISION
AVOIDANCE WITHIN THE AFFECTED AIRSPACE. TO PREVENT OVERLOADING OF THE
CONTINGENCY SYSTEM, ACCESS TO THE AFFECTED AIRSPACE WILL BE
RESTRICTED. COMMON TRAFFIC ADVISORY AND TIBA PROCEDURES APPLY WITHIN
THE AFFECTED AIRSPACE AND ARE DETAILED IN AIP GEN 3.3 AND JEPPESEN
AIRWAY MANUAL, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (SERIES AU100 AND AU1200).
DIRECTED TRAFFIC INFORMATION WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE. ADJACENT ATC
UNITS WILL PROVIDE ADVICE REGARDING POTENTIAL COLLISION HAZARDS,
WORKLOAD PERMITTING. FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE (FIS) AVAILABLE FROM
ATS UNITS PROVIDING FIS IN ADJACENT AIRSPACE OR FROM PILOT BRIEFING
OR FLIGHTWATCH. SAR ALERTING WILL BE PROVIDED BY PERTH TOWER ONLY FOR
THOSE FLIGHTS LANDING AT PERTH AERODROME. SARTIME-BASED ALERTING
SERVICE FOR OTHER FLIGHTS WILL BE AVAILABLE ON REQUEST FROM
FLIGHTWATCH. WHERE APPLICABLE ATC WILL ISSUE INBOUND AIRCRAFT A STAR
CLNC. IN CONTINGENCY AIRSPACE, TRACKING IS AT PILOT DISCRETION.
PRIOR TO OPERATING IN THE AFFECTED AIRSPACE, PILOTS MUST: OBTAIN A
BRIEFING ON CONTINGENCY PROCEDURES FROM MELBOURNE CENTRE OPERATIONS
MANAGER ON 03 9235 7455 AND IF INTENDING TO ARRIVE OR DEPART FROM
PERTH OBTAIN A PROGRAMMED LANDING OR TAKEOFF
TIME. PILOTS MUST ALSO:
OPERATE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE IFR AND DISPLAY NAVIGATION AND ANTI
COLLISION LIGHTS AT ALL TIMES. OPERATE IN ACCORDANCE WITH COMMON
TRAFFIC ADVISORY PROCEDURES ON 118.7 MHZ. CONTACT PERTH TOWER ON
120.5 MHZ PRIOR TO JOINING OR APPROACHING THE CIRCUIT AREA.

FROM 01 181400 TO 01 181700

No IFR Traffic

18th Jan 2008, 17:03

Don't you love the spin. This airspace is operated at night by only one controller. No breaks. One person called in sick for the night shift. The TRA could have gone on all night except for the fact that a controller has gone out of his way and having knocked off at 5pm, grabbed a bit of sleep and come in on Additional Duty at 2am to work through to 10 am.

The statement points at excess numbers of ATC's calling in sick, whereas it's the efforts of one that actually stops it being TRA all night.:rolleyes::ugh:

Hempy

19th Jan 2008, 00:56

Article from the Syd Morn Herald................

Qantas has postponed all its flights into and out of Perth airport for a three-hour period from 11pm (WST) on Friday night, the airline's chief pilot says.

Qantas chief pilot Captain Chris Manning said the postponements, between 11pm (WST) on Friday and 2am (WST) on Saturday, were due to safety concerns prompted by the closure of the airspace in the Perth terminal area by air traffic controllers.

"Qantas had deemed it unsafe to operate in this area due the downgrading of controlled air space which would impact critical ascent and descent profiles," Captain Manning told AAP.

"While we regret the inconvenience to our passengers, Qantas always puts safety first," he said.

Air Services Australia (ASA) employs the air traffic controllers that usually monitor the air space around the airport.

ASA spokesman Bryan Nicholson said leaving the Perth airport air traffic control service unmanned for these three hours was unavoidable after three or four years of abysmal staff planning and the associated current staffing crisis.

Mr Nicholson said pilots entering and leaving the air space would be self-monitoring the air space during this time.

Mr Nicholson said he was aware Qantas had postponed its flights but added that he was sorry.

.... fixed

phew_they_missed!

19th Jan 2008, 03:06

Oh how i would love to see them admit that one Hempy :rolleyes:

Fly_by_wire

19th Jan 2008, 06:41

im sure everything will come out in the first royal commision.

undervaluedATC

20th Jan 2008, 19:24

fly_by_wire,

unfortunately I think the royal commission will only come when something happens that is too big for them to "spin"

I hope I'm wrong on that one.

direct_no_speed,

at the risk of "me-too-ism" yeah, it definately does raise the bile in my throat when at the workface they beg us to do ED's and OT to keep the system running, but to the public, it's all our fault, not theirs.

SM4 Pirate

21st Jan 2008, 05:15

So has Qantas said please explain? Or has the concept of 3 or 4 sickies been accepted? Perth has one rostered approach ATC on night shift; you do the math, how many called in sick?

Air traffic out of control
MONDAY, 21 JANUARY 2008

Ben Sandilands writes:

Qantas refused to let its aircraft use Perth Airport for three hours on Friday night because AirServices Australia couldn’t muster enough staff to provide air traffic control in the area.

It has been a well-kept secret in recent months that AirServices Australia is so bad at maintaining staffing levels that it has at times left the pilots of passenger jets to organise their own safe separation from other jets.

Clearly something snapped in Qantas over this festering problem. With the support of management Qantas chief pilot Chris Manning pulled the plug on its transcontinental services for the duration. Captain Manning told Perth media: "Qantas had deemed it unsafe to operate in this area due the downgrading of controlled air space which would impact critical ascent and descent profiles."

Four transcontinental Qantas services were delayed by its mini boycott and there were knock-on effects for hundreds of other passengers.

Expect more claims and counter claims to follow. AirServices claimed three or four controllers called in sick. Surely it knew if it was three or four. The controllers claim AirServices is lying and that the roster was so tight it collapsed when only one of their number couldn’t report for duty.

According to emails circulating among members of the Civil Air union, the Melbourne ATC centre (which shares large-scale coverage of controlled airspace with the Brisbane centre) was 39 staff short on Saturday, forcing the airlines to allow four minutes' space between their jets and any others instead of the normal two minutes.

The effects in busy areas like Sydney-Melbourne are highly undesirable. And laughable, given that Australia has one of the finest air traffic control systems in terms of infrastructure, and a third world indifference to properly manning it.

A spokesman for AirServices, Bryan Nicholson, says pilots entering and leaving the unmanned Perth air space would self-monitor.

Qantas said not on its jets. Virgin Blue kept flying. Self-monitoring air space is a big ask if unexpected issues like fog arise on approach, or pilots have to contend with the unexpected, like cabin pressure or systems problems, when their workload is very high and extremely critical to safety.

SM4 Pirate

21st Jan 2008, 05:51

http://www.theage.com.au/news/news/reliability-on-melbournesydney-route-hits-record-low/2008/01/19/1200764143184.html

Wait for it? Airlines take us on flights of fancy
Reid Sexton
January 20, 2008

THE reliability of air travel between Australia's two biggest cities has hit a record low with levels of punctuality at their worst since figures became public.

The latest statistics, released last week, show almost a third of flights between Melbourne and Sydney in November arrived more than 15 minutes late or were cancelled.

And the Bureau of Transport and Regional Economics data shows nearly four in 10 flights from Tullamarine to Sydney — a route operated by Qantas and Virgin Blue — arrived late or not at all.

Last month, The Sunday Age revealed the 2007-08 year was on track to become the worst year on record for flights between Australia's two biggest cities.

While the November cancellations are slightly below the 2007-08 average, a huge increase in delayed planes means 32.9% of all flights between Sydney and Melbourne were late or cancelled.

Since 2003, airlines have given their domestic performance figures to the bureau, which is part of the new Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government.

The figures reflect an overall decline in the reliability of domestic air travel throughout Australia.

They show that, overall, 77.4% of flights arrived on time and 1.4% were cancelled in November — well below the four-year average of 85.6% and 0.9% .

Qantas said all domestic carriers experienced a decline in reliability in the second half of 2007 compared to the same period in 2006. A spokesman said Qantas did better than Virgin Blue throughout 2007.

However, November had been a particularly bad month for weather on the east coast of Australia. "High winds in Sydney … meant the airport was often reduced to a single runway," he said.

Virgin Blue spokeswoman Heather Jeffery said: "We can't speak for the industry but November doesn't appear to have been a stellar month for anyone.

She said several factors were at play: air traffic congestion, delays due to weather, minor unscheduled maintenance and record passenger numbers.

rack 'n stack

21st Jan 2008, 09:23

One controller was unfit for the night shift in Perth. The other absences did not impact negatively on the night shift replacement/availability.

One controller extended his 0630 shift to come in at 0200 OR the closure/TRA would have been 6.5 hours long. Unfortunately this point has been lost in the media beat up. For a very long time Perth controllers have covered the staffing shortfalls so that occurrences such as this have not been more frequent. However you can only do a certain amount of O/T and remain physiologically fit to do the job.

The night shift has only one person rostered between 2300 and 0530 local. The absence was medically cerificated and the controller would have breached the CASRs had they attended for duty. Single person night shifts rely on everyone being 100% fit 100% of the time, or you have airspace closures/changes.

trueline

22nd Jan 2008, 01:43

I thought it useful to briefly explain the recently installed Service Delivery Environment to non-ATCs and the major role it plays in ATC shortages.
SDE combines ATC units into 'like type' service delivery areas - Upper Airspace (high level over Oz except the east coast), Regional (regional towers and lower level airspace) and East Coast. East Coast is divided into Service Delivery Lines: AD-ML, ML-SY, SY tower/TCU, SY-BN, BN-CS. Previously, ATC groups consisted of all sectors within a defined geographical area; so a controller could work a low level sector (class G and E) and later in the shift a high level sector above (class C and A).
Now, for example, Regional takes care of a sector underneath an East Coast sector. Controllers no longer hold endorsements across different SDE areas so an ATC who used to hold 4-5 sector endorsements only holds 2-3. So a sector will be declared TIBA (no ATC service - pilot self-separation) when a number of controllers are available who held the endorsement but who's recency (5 hours plugged in per 21 days) has lapsed. It was clear some time ago that there weren't enough controllers to transition to SDE but management did it anyway. They WERE told. So AsA blames the national/global skills shortage, Civil Air, previous management and individual controllers. The correct way to project manage SDE would have been to build up controller numbers THEN transition. This was done successfully (with significant overtime) when the last big project was done - moving from the paper strip and basic synthetic radar environment of ATCCARDS to the (overly?) sophisticated TAAATS. A 'bow wave' of staff was planned to allow controllers to be released to develop procedures, train on the new system and ghost in the old one. The bow wave was more of a ripple but at least they tried! SDE planning was lots of talk without realistic controller number crunching.

ER_BN

22nd Jan 2008, 09:21

Trueline..

Good explanation for the great unwashed...

Even though we controllers are still waiting for the "stable year" much promised after TAAATS commissioning, I think the bow ripple had a good justification i.e. introducing TAAATS...

It has been rumoured that some SDE Project staff requested over 30 extra staff to do SDE but management did not listen.

That is in my eyes a bow tsunami not just a wave but how could anyone justify such a dalliance (and expense) for all those well listed reasons for SDE...

Lets see what were they again...

a/. ummmm...

b/. hmmmm...

c/. ???????

d/. gee, can I phone a friend....

Aus ATC

22nd Jan 2008, 15:46

For any journos reading this - the posts by rack and stack, and trueline above are about a clear and accurate as you can get. Forget the spin - just report the facts.

westausatc

25th Jan 2008, 09:46

Like most controllers here, I am bemused (and confused!) by the recent pronouncements that we are only 22 controllers down - huh? In West Radar alone, we are currently training (or about to start) 5 people - as they are not good to go yet, surely we are at least 5 controllers down then? It would have to be at least 3, ie one group in one centre has 14% of the nationwide shortage...... doesn't make sense to me!

Anecdotally, I would have to guess that we are closer to 50-60 short across the country and that wouldn't even start to fix the shortage at the college and in projects, etc.

If the shortage is really only 22 operationally, why are they recruiting so many people from overseas (heard over 30 coming) and ramping direct entry recruiting up so significantly? Are they that scared of resignations for the sandpit or greener pastures?

phew_they_missed!

25th Jan 2008, 11:32

Are they that scared of resignations for the sandpit or greener pastures?They should be. They have so little good will left that it will take some serious changes to stop people leaving. But you're right....that figure of 22 is way out.....and it's getting bigger on almost a weekly basis in Melbourne Centre.

Scurvy.D.Dog

25th Jan 2008, 14:26

... they wish (****ing like big black alsatians) it is only 22 :ooh:
.
It ain't! :hmm:

SM4 Pirate

25th Jan 2008, 20:59

Last week Perth TCU, this week Melbourne TWR... Did the TWR go TIBA/TRA last night; or is that just a vicious rumour?

westausatc

25th Jan 2008, 22:15

Does any of this sort of thing happen in the BN FIR? Everything always seems to happen down here - never hear of, say, CS TCU going TIBA/TRA or anything like that......

Is that why they keep foisting everything BN does on us down here?

Further to my last post, if they are that scared of resignations, why the hell wouldn't you do something to keep the resignations from happening? Paint me pink and call me stupid if I'm wrong but it makes no operational sense at all to have FPCs with years of experience walk out the door just to have to recruit three people in the hopes that in 5 years at least one of them has the licence and ratings to replace that one FPC!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

My head really is starting to hurt from bashing it against the brick wall so much.....

Plazbot

26th Jan 2008, 00:49

Brisbane had a large number a tad over a year ago. I have personally sat next to two empty screens in the last 6 months as well as making the 'we are gone, no staff' broadcast three times 18 or so months ago. Air New Zealand had no issues in flying through I note. I wonder if they even knew there was noone there.

shadowoneau

27th Jan 2008, 01:28

With a well practiced rolling of her eyes...

reminds me of another quote:

Behind every great man is a woman rolling her eyes

flightfocus

27th Jan 2008, 02:11

Bravo Odie Juan Karaoke,

One of the best and insightful posts for some time on this issue.

Based on your excellent article I am going out to purchase and subsequently install a series of RED WINE EXTINGUISHER BOTTLES.

What strikes me is the rapid and uncontrolled way the company is spiraling out of control.

I can not believe that they are able to keep a lid on the reality of the situation. How can ministers and the media not see that this is an issue that needs to be rectified and resolved.

I know lets get A Current Affair on our time. They seem to have a great deal of success.

rabbit123

27th Jan 2008, 08:05

To add to all that has recently been said - the 'interview' with the CEO just so clearly demonstates how far from reality he is connected. And as has been stated so many times - it is not a good reality, things are very bad and still getting worse.

It could be that the CEO believes what he says and this is because he is not getting the full picture or the real truth being passed up the line to him from the managers below of what's really going on and how dire the situation is becoming.

I agree we are not helping ourselves by keeping things afloat and we're only just doing this. Airservices will just keep asking for more and more with no end in sight........

SM4 Pirate

27th Jan 2008, 08:41

Melbourne Tower is in 'enforced' tactical spacing due lack of controllers, positions on combine where they would otherwise be separated (sic), Canberra TMA was closed for 30 minutes (Yes the national Capital, sic) due to non availability of staff.

The cards are all stacking up; Dubai, Canada, Muscat, Abu Dhabi, Ireland, Canada, Switzerland, Germany, New Zealand are all currently looking to 'attract' rated and experienced controllers; because of the 'immediate crisis'. God knows what would happen if the USA "relaxed" or helped (by sponsoring citizenship) to get around their citizenship restriction; rumours of 1000+ short.

The global supply/demand ratio is starting to take hold; if ASA comes with another stupid inept offer (who believes they will do anything else) then the motivation to "stay in there a little longer" is going to wane.

My read is people have now exhausted their personal motivations to do extra for a "money hungry mob" that refuse to listen to their staff; see each extra step towards combined sectors, splitting rosters down SDE lines, removing support roles (TFDC/AUSFIC) increase the demotivating effects. People everywhere will always be motivated by money, but I see people getting too tired to care anymore; particularly when forethought did foresee the trouble we are in (but was ignored due to political convenience); and we all know it's only going to get worse.

36 'official' shortages (22 line controllers + 14 others controller only jobs), coupled with 85 or so non-operational 'vacancies' to boot (pesky things like Mat-leave, LWOP, LSL, Sick Leave, LOEQ, etc.). Add in the 10-30 (depending on who you ask) people seriously looking for greener/sandier/whiter grass and it's a house of cards about to come tumbling in.

I heard today that 3 people left last week; I know of another who has a job elsewhere (and will give notice soon) and personally know 6 people just waiting to pull up stumps when their offers elsewhere are formalised.

Kaboom, get out while you can

BeGoneTFN

27th Jan 2008, 12:10

Agree Rabbit123,

TFN was in my opinion patronising when he weaseled on about salaries, the guy doesn't really believe that, he's blowing hot air up ones bottom. He's an accountant, or at least he looks like one! (you know what there like remember DC?)

Rather buy my own coffee than have to wait till Wednesday morning for it , what the hell will I do after easter if I become addicted to there poxy coffee. Yes the idea was insulting, a tight arsed effort to get everyone on side, WHAT A JOKE!

Once again, nice and loud!

BEGONE TFN, you SUCK, you don't have the ownership over ASA that we the employees have developed over many years.

You're there for your five minutes of glory, well you've stuffed it, now bugger off!

BgTFN

Stationair8

27th Jan 2008, 20:03

Management must start back on Tuesday after the nice summer holidays.
Only another 47 weeks and Richard Dudley will be on the radio news telling everyone the Santa has put his flight plan in, ASA will ensure that Santa travels safely through the airspace even though it might be a TIBA and YMML might not have any controllers. But gee it must give the mums and dads who don't have any idea a warm fuzzy feeling!!!

Stationair8

27th Jan 2008, 22:04

Don't forget to fill in your General Aviation Survey Form in.
How do you rate our services?
www.airservicesaustralia.com/gasurvey/ (http://www.airservicesaustrali.com/gasurvey/)

Driscoll

28th Jan 2008, 09:10

Odie Juan,

You make some interesting points but it is not a simple as you make out. Don't forget that a lot of more recently rated controllers need to do AD to get within 50k of FPC pay because past certified agreements have particularly shafted those who aren't onboard yet. These people didn't vote to shaft themselves, don't blame them for not being too supportive of those earning top bracket who preach about not doing AD.

WELLCONCERNED

28th Jan 2008, 22:25

Maybe it's time for Airservices to apply for permission to use the new ICAO message designator when telling pilots about airspace closures and TIBA, etc.

I understand that ICAO recently approved the use of SCROTAM as a message designator, where messages contain 'a complete load of bollocks!'.

Apparently it stands for:

Senior management Concoctions Relating to Omissions of Truth about Airspace Management.

Seems an appropriate use of the designator...

Scurvy.D.Dog

28th Jan 2008, 22:39

OJK .... erudite :D
.
WC .... gold .... pure gold :ok: .... may I use that in anger? :}

En-Rooter

29th Jan 2008, 00:40

Ooooh No Odie,

We're all 'stickin together'

Back to the thrust of your excellent posts. :D

You have been sold out by the seniors in your profession in a most stunning fashion, (I'm a senior by the way) try getting any of these guys to admit to voting yes to the last couple of EBA's. It's an absolute fecking disgrace that it takes a controller 14(?) years to get to the top of the pay scale (maybe more with your ALM breathing down your neck about sick leave etc).

Sold out well and truly mate, and I don't know how we can sell you out any further dowstream.

Although there is an EBA coming up soon. My prediction you ask? Your weak as p!ss brothers sitting beside you (the ones on the top dollars) will cave for CPI and a bit.

And your complicit union will say, 'ah well, there is a re-cession coming on you know and some of these new airlines don't look too stable, make up your own mind fellas' Once again fostering a collective voice. (heavy with sarcasm)

Enjoy your travel mate :ok:

contactdepartures

29th Jan 2008, 01:36

Maybe it's time for someone to write non stop to Kevin07 and Tony to let them know what is happening until they fix it?

Or do we just wait for poor old Kev to be delayed coming in to Canberra one night due to lack of TMA staff ?

The most unfortunate part of the saga is that most of the good management who could actually fix this disaster have moved out of ASA into other organisations.

Something needs to be done fast though to get more ab-inits into the College. It'd be such a shame to see that Tower Sim go unused because of a lack of students (no wait, that assumes it actually works :E). Why are there not enough students coming out at the moment ? Is it a problem with recruitment not providing the proper candidates or something bigger ?

Maybe it's time for some action ala the 90's so some serious attention is brought to the shamble conditions ATCs are being forced to work under at the moment?

I'm sure the punters would get very firey if they know their lives are at risk due to overworked, tired, under appreciated controllers trying their best. As they say, it just takes a few small events to make a chain reaction............. :yuk::yuk:

undervaluedATC

29th Jan 2008, 02:31

driscoll,

I've been through three EBA's with AsA. It sounds like you work here too. What on earth makes you think selling out the newbies was something the union came up with? Would it not be much more obvious that AsA has been actively trying to reduce the cost of new employees? As Odie says - economics 101. I understand that it sucks to be doing the same job for less money [and yes, I had 18months of budget FPC] but the union is on your side - you are the current and future members - if they don't look after you, there will be no union in years to come.

Enrooter
I hope you are agitating your supposed "piss-weak" colleges at the coal face and not just sledging them anonymously here if you want some change to occur.

odie,
agreed, the untapped potential is of ATC's is huge, IMHO. But it will remained untapped so long as AsA continues to treat us as a cost, rather than an asset.

contactdepartures,
RE: recruitment. AsA still advertises that it prefers uni-qualified applicants. Yet in the last 10 years, it has actually REDUCED the college [sorry - "academy" - gag] salary, by the tune of 10 grand down to $30K something! [and AsA eliminated transfer allowance] Any uni qualified person could reasonably expect to go into at least a $40K position - I wonder why no-one applies??? Compounding this problem is the industries boom - you can earn the same out west driving a truck, and not be subject to weekly performance milestones.

What's the solution?

Driscoll

29th Jan 2008, 03:02

undervaluedATC,

I don't think the union has deliberately sold out newbies, I just think that because those not affected by it are not around when it gets presented it doesn't draw much attention. Fortunately I was only mildly shafted under the old agreement unlike people who join up now and go through one increment at a time unless they grovel in which case they may rewarded with one extra. The so called FPC fix is an embarrassment but only the new people who never got a say care.

Ultralights

29th Jan 2008, 05:46

what exactly is the first year pay rate for trainees? will it be worth while giving up my current $60K job to continue with my ASA recruitment process?

Plazbot

29th Jan 2008, 06:01

Ultralights, the certified agreement and all pay rates are on the Airservices web site.

RE: The Union selling out newbies, keep in mind that the union IS the controllers and the controllers sold out the newbies.

To the comment about those with staunch no OT stances, I can be pretty certain that those with that view are the ones that voted No. Me for one. I have not done one since the Tongan auto mailer brilliance.

Also, I still shake my head at the Union Exec and the last EBA. The impression they constantly put across was that the alternatives to not voting yes were far worse than voting yes specially as we would end up as the test case for work choices etc. It was pathetic when the Exec the turned around and said 'We did not tell you to vote for it!! We did not endorse it at all'.:=

EnRouter, I think you have got it pretty well mapped out. I hope the rest of the crowd prove me wrong.

Hempy

29th Jan 2008, 07:24

Odie Juan Karaoke,

AAAA1111++++, excellent poster, will read again.

If I may extrapolate on this:

But ASA seem to be completely ignorant of the potential explosion in profit (if nothing else) they could achieve if they harnessed it. Some individuals in management might privately "get it" but the organisation doesn't. ASA senior managers seem to be characterised by their "conformity" - I can't think of one that is a "renegade" that challenges organisational "shibboleths" and actually leads. They seem to have two main interests. Firstly - to reduce "costs". They don't seem to understand that the "opportunity cost" of not fully utilising their means of production (their ATC's) is so much higher than they could ever recover by their present "penny pinching". Secondly - not rocking the boat in the upwards direction. In my experience in the private sector the most successful businesses almost always have a robust culture of challenging the upper echelons of the business. But far more interestingly - the upper echelons welcome it because it forces them to continually sharpen and refine their thinking. With us, it appears that any form of behaviour interpreted as a challenge is the only time ASA moves fast - to have the "challenger" escorted off the premises.

There is an old reasoning that Air Traffic Controllers make terrible managers; the reason being that they have spent the majority of their careers making instant decisions. An old and respected instructor (WonKing) once told me that the worst thing you can do as an ATC is do nothing (ATC's are selected in part on this criteria). Indecision has no place, presented with any situation, you have to make a decision and stick to it. The key to survival is the ability to either never make a bad decision, or the ability to get out of a bad one. Not many can get through even 5 years and honestly say "I've never made a bad decision", and I don't expect any managers can either. The difference is how those bad decisions are managed; as an ATC, you work with it, vector 4 instead of 1, descend another, and then when you (eventually) get out think "hmm, wont do that again". Our managers seem to have carried this thought pattern past the console and into their present careers, and I'm not entirely sure it is good trait to have in those positions ("SDE, well, its going ahead because I say so..."). We need ATC's as "operational managers", the knowledge base is necessary. The problem is that not many have the ability to do both (or don't pass interviews)

Added to the fact that although the place would have an impressive collective IQ, formal qualifications are rare. Combined with the unique nature of the job skill set (making ATC's seemingly unemployable outside the "job"), most of our managers fully realise that they could not make $160,000+/yr anywhere else. This tends to galvanise their thinking in a particular direction, i.e. whatever their immediate boss tells them, and so on, etc. The buck has to stop somewhere, but the problem is systemic.

When I first started we were a "public service", with all the associated connotations; now we are a "Government Business Enterprise".............with all the associated connotations.

DirtyPierre

29th Jan 2008, 07:29

Plaz,

Me old china, you are really getting cyncial up on Tops. Obviously, I'm going to have to get into aisle 1 very soon. ;) (last word it won't be til May)

Civl Air is a union run by its members. If you thought that the Prez's statement about the last CA offer was weak, then tell him. He is man enough to take it. Better still, go see the VP in aisle 3 who is on the current CA negotiating committee and let him know your feelings.

BTW, I think Underrated hit the nail on the head.

rabbit123

29th Jan 2008, 07:38

Management wonders why the failure rate has increased at the college over the last few years- could it be that ATC is actually a bloody hard job??????????

And ATC has now become even more difficult to learn because not only are you learning how to separate aircraft but you now have to learn and contend with the emormity of TAAATS itself.

The difficulty of the job is often and readily dismissed by all levels of management to some degree and overshadowed by the buzz words - THE BUSINESS.

If ASA wants to attract sufficient numbers to apply they need to act as if they're in the business world and pay them accordingly.

DirtyPierre

29th Jan 2008, 07:42

There is an old reasoning that Air Traffic Controllers make terrible managersHempy, much as I respect your opinion, I believe this is a furphy. Plenty of good managers in the past have come from within the ATC ranks.

You'll find that most ATCs complaining about management decisions on PPrune are talking about the management in Canberra. In nearly all cases, those decisions are made by managers who have never held an ATC licence.

It is also interesting to note that the complaints about the middle level management made in posts are about persons who have held an ATC licence for only a relatively short time, before becoming managers (usually less than 10 years).

Very often the most "popular" managers are those that had a long history within ATC ranks. Phil Faulkner springs to mind as an example.

Your suggestion that ATCs don't make good managers because of their requirement to make quick decisions is flawed. Perhaps its the selection process, that is, the wrong controllers are chosen to be managers on too many occasions.

It seems to me that many of our best managers, operational or otherwise are the ones you never hear about. Many brickbats on this forum, not too many bouquets.

Hempy

29th Jan 2008, 08:03

DirtyPierre, don't get me wrong, I totally agree that there are "good" managers at ALL managerial levels. There are also terrible ones. These seem to be the ones making the bad decisions every day. I certainly meant no personal slur on your immediate work area supervisor or classmate who's a good bloke, and I will try not to generalise in the future.

ferris

29th Jan 2008, 10:30

If you asked an AsA manager if he was doing a good job, he would say yes; he is achieving the targets set by his superiors (and for years, these targets have all been fiscal). I think people are confusing what it means to be a "good manager". IMHO, what the posters here are lamenting is the lack of any good LEADERS. Thats a manager who can achieve the aims of the organisation, sometimes getting the staff to do things they dont want to do (in a positive way), and sometimes either standing up against things they see as wrong (convincing those above that they are wrong), and sometimes achieving things in a different way to what was planned.
Convergent thinking in AsA has led to years of promotion of people who are career bureaucrats/mandarins, whose focus is far more about self-preservation. Certainly dont want any leaders, rocking the boat.

I'm pretty sure if manager's KPIs were highly skewed (ie. changed) towards staff retention and service provision, you would see results pretty quickly.

Note; there has been even the odd manager/bureaucrat who stood up against a directive/policy, and had their heads lopped as a reminder to the rest on how to get ahead (pun intended).

flightfocus

29th Jan 2008, 13:27

OJK,

Your Brain Extinguishers seem to have come to the rescue again. :ok:

I have been with ASA for a similar period of time. I have the benefit of having worked for several corporations - both large and small - before joining the sheltered workshop.

As I sit here reflecting on that period I realise that the places I most enjoyed were the ones where staff were appreciated. The managers went to great lengths to look after the staff.

Interestingly enough these companies were also the most successful and grew the quickest. :8 My brain is not the size of the universe and I can't bend spoons with will power but f*&$ me if there isn't some coincidence in there somewhere.

Since joining the salt mines I have been astounded at the YSCB based gravy train's lack of ability to tap into the passion that most ATC's have for the job.

The reality is that you have a profession that only a limited number of people can actually do. The ones that you have managed to capture and train by a stroke of luck actually like doing it and are prepared to do it for a long time.

Now as a company do you a) look after those people, encourage development, respect them and within economic reason ensure that that they are well remunerated or do you b) take every opportunity to alienate them, create friction, fail to listen and generally cock it up??? :{

I saw an ad in the local rag here last weekend. Company wanting a Graduate Engineer. Offer??? $100,000 PLUS bonuses PLUS further training PLUS wash your socks!!!

ASA are not able to compete for the skills they need right now. We are not at FAA levels yet but it seems that the Alan Woods crew are determined to get us there one way or another.

If I didn't give a s#$& about the game it would not worry me. But I have seen the SDE farce in action. I have seen some of the "people" getting rated. It is not making me very confident or proud of the organisation or the profession.

I hope that TFN jumps soon. His rhetoric is demeaning and contradicts itself. But who are we going to get??? I hope the new board members that are due soonish bring some pressure to bear together with the new Yes Minister....

WELLCONCERNED

29th Jan 2008, 18:32

Part of the "management" problem is the focus on performance pay.

When Airservices introduced new management contracts several years ago, it mistakenly introduced the notion of 'at risk salary' as a package component - where all super contributions, and other associated deductions were based on a notional gross salary, even though the actual in hand salary was up to 30% less.

This built a mind set that there was some entitlement to the 'at risk' component as it was already being factored in certain calculations, and so, at minimum effort, and with [no so ] stretch targets, they were really entitled to recieve a large chunk - if not all - of the at risk component every year.

It might actually be beneficial for Airservices to scrap the at risk salary concept, and actually introduce management bonuses, because people might actually have to perform to get those bonuses.

peuce

29th Jan 2008, 20:02

WELLCONCERNED, you said:

"It might actually be beneficial for Airservices to scrap the at risk salary concept, and actually introduce management bonuses, because people might actually have to perform to get those bonuses."

Can't argue with the principle, however, I think the general feeling here is that the Airservices definition of PERFORM is the problem.

Is their definition of perform:
... cut costs?
...cut staff numbers?
... do more with less?

If we could change their definition to something that includes more of FLIGHTFOCUS' goals:

"look after those people, encourage development, respect them and within economic reason ensure that that they are well remunerated"

...then, yes, fill ya boots with bonuses.

Plazbot

29th Jan 2008, 22:19

Civl Air is a union run by its members. If you thought that the Prez's statement about the last CA offer was weak, then tell him. He is man enough to take it. Better still, go see the VP in aisle 3 who is on the current CA negotiating committee and let him know your feelings.

Already been down this road Pedro. Usual response was forthcoming. The 'If you don't like it you step up and run the show' defence.:rolleyes:

Roger Standby

30th Jan 2008, 02:06

Ballarat closed all day! Now we're in trouble!:}

I hope all the controllers in this thread venting their spleens are also taking the time to read and post constructively on our own civilair forums.

Cheers!

En-Rooter

30th Jan 2008, 02:06

Enrooter
I hope you are agitating your supposed "piss-weak" colleges at the coal face and not just sledging them anonymously here if you want some change to occur.

U-ATC,

I maintain anonymity on this site because I want to be able to speak my peice without copping the juevenile threats from management. Having said that I think a few people in ML (ATC's) have worked out who I am. No problem with that but I wont be confirming who I am.

I have always spoken my piece openly within my group and outside of it for that matter. People know my thoughts.

I think the way ATC's have sold out their junior colleagues is breathtaking, both in it's stupidity and its immorality. And all for a grand sum of CPI and a bit. I make comments to the affect of 'next EBA will be no different, CPI and a bit' hoping that it will not be, but............

At least one thing will change, we wont shaft our new-comers because there's nothing left to shaft them with.

The so called FPC fix is an embarrassment but only the new people who never got a say care.

Mate, I actually give a sh!t about this, do a straw poll of the people that voted away your entitlements and you will NOT find anyone admiting to voting for any of the last couple of CA's. But they were all voted up?? You're sitting amongst liars as well.

I had dealings with a union official who spoke words to the effect of 'it's easier to stop things from happening than to fix things that have happened' WTF is that supposed to mean?

Until this union starts to listen to it's members and motivates the greedy amongst us to fix this disgrace it's as bad as the management of ASA.

At least the FPC shafting will achieve one thing. ASA's bullsh!t 14 tier salary scale no longer comes close to competing with other professions and for that matter trades or manual labour.