Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels

[TrafficTraffic]

4-5 months away from oblivion more likely. The exodus of ATC's will continue...

what exodus would that be Missy ?

How many have left?

And where is this great 'promised land' they are all going to?

I know of one guy who has a contract in the sandpit in Brisvegas and a couple who who have turned them down....

TT

[undervaluedATC]

Max1,
regards commencement of negotiations, you forgot to mention that TFN and JH also cancelled another meeting to set a date with less than 24hr notice, with no reason given := and then TFN took more than a week to respond to a letter sent to him about rescheduling. :ugh:

So AsA stalled for 2 weeks, only to come to the meeting and say they need another 4-5 weeks. :rolleyes: While hardly un-anticipated, it does nothing for my morale :sad: and just proves that you can't believe a word TFN says. [so much for all his talk about a better way of conducting EBA's and giving us a "damn good payrise" - both PUBLISHED statements in our internal newsletter and external company magazine]

And lo & behold, the tone of the meeting is that AsA once again expects anything above CPI increases to be offset by productivity gains. :yuk: There's two problems with this - eventually (and thats right now, after the last 3 punitive EBA's) there's nothing left to give up T&C wise. 2nd. - the productivity has already been achieved - staff numbers have stalled/decreased, while traffic continues to increase.

TrafficTraffic,
regards evidence of mass exodus: the fellow controllers I've spoken to have said this lack of good will by AsA to reward their work and share the profit has moved an overseas job from a possible option to a serious alternative.

[missy]

what exodus would that be

With retirements, redundancies and resignations, Sydney ATC look like loosing twelve this year. When you start the year below the required numbers then the end of the year ain't going to look pretty. You'd have to expect significant disruptions to operations (reduced CTMS rates, TIBA) from here on in.

[ozbiggles]

So Traffic x2 , TIBA, NOTAMs regarding delays and non rated controllers filling in for people on comfort breaks means ATC don't have any issues regarding manning?:E
Doesn't look that way from FL 410

[TrafficTraffic]

So Traffic x2 , TIBA, NOTAMs regarding delays and non rated controllers filling in for people on comfort breaks means ATC don't have any issues regarding manning?
Doesn't look that way from FL 410

An excellent point Biggles my old chum...but.... the fact that there is a distinct lack of staff, is not a result of 'a mass exodus' of controllers overseas. It has more to do with staff planning and HResourcing. See Missys second post above
With retirements, redundancies and resignations, Sydney ATC look like loosing twelve this year

The staff shortage is due to a number of factors.

Its nice to know that you do occasionally look out when you are up at FL410 (the perspective however is a little skewed) - but I didnt know Metro's could go that high!

:ouch:

TT

[No Further Requirements]

TrafficTraffic - we have lost 30% of our staff overseas in the last 6 months, and another may leave soon. I'd call that an exodus, at least in our workplace.

Cheers,

NFR.

[TrafficTraffic]

I find it hard to believe 30% (I'd call that BS) - where do you work YBHM?

(where have they gone?)

TT

[Quokka]

I suspect that the 30% refers to one particular group, numbers of controllers at the console, not in the back room, and, excluding ALMs. Not necessarily a reflection of the Centre as a whole, or the body of controllers in Australia as a whole...

Traffic is correct. And I might add that the attrition rate of the last few years has been nothing like what it was in years past... when there was a steady stream of resignations as controllers left to turn their hobbies/second jobs into full-time careers... Real-Estate Agents, Bankers, Amway, sailing charters, Goat Farming (he was back after the bottom fell out of the market), pottery business, computing business, taxi drivers, sheep/wheat farming, QANTAS, other flying ventures... and, transfers within Air Traffic Control... to the College, to regional Towers, to Capital City Towers, to Approach... not a flood but a consistent flow of departures that was higher than in recent years.

There may have been a change in sentiment in regard to leaving from "possible" to "a serious alternative", but until people walk out the door, it's not an Exodus.

Until people walk out the door, the EBA negotiations will deliver nothing more than a small increase above CPI and the removal/reduction of some current entitlements. TFN and JH already have the bottle of Champagne sitting on the desk, waiting to be opened. They know that they will win... and they have the Governments support in doing so... "wages restraint".

Nothing will change... until people walk out the door.

[ozbiggles]

Sorry Tx2, I have never had the pleasure of flying the.....flying pencil.
I do occasionally look out the window....but only when TCAS tells me to! I just fear I may have to look out more often in the future.

[No Further Requirements]

Yes, just one group, not including ALMs. Controllers at the coalface, so the ones earning the $$$ and talking to planes. Bahrain was the lucky winner. Thinking back, it was actually two lost to Bahrain, one no longer in traffic and one transferred. Still, ripping 4 people out of our roster is a little difficult. What would happen if 20% left across all the groups?

I think the current negotiations will be make or break for AsA. There are numerous jobs out there. I know one person who has been offered three jobs in the last fortnight - all overseas. People who are willing to pack up and leave will do so if the negotiations are not favourable.

Cheers,

NFR.

[TrafficTraffic]

A little bit of me dies inside - but I agree with Quokka - until they are gone, its not an exodus. Thinking about going and actually going are two very different things.

TT

[The Euronator]

TT

Or there is the thinking of coming back , then the realisation that you can commute from Aus to Europe to work a maximum of 135 shifts a year at 80% of your Euro salary...SWEEEEET.:}

[TrafficTraffic]

Yeah there is that - but TAAATS hasnt failed recently!

[Plazbot]

Keep fishin' double tap.;)

[TrafficTraffic]

WARNING:THREAD DRIFT





ps;you wish big fish

[max1]

Well it looks like the goodwill ship has sailed, even the younger guys who have been up to their red eyeballs in O/T have decided that the 4-5 week delay from ASA is the straw to break the camels back.
Wayne Swan has been in the job for less than 6 months and can come up with a budget for the country. I'm not saying if its good or bad , just that he was able to meet the deadline. ASA have had 2+ years and can't come up with anything covering less than a 1000 people (and getting less as we type).
May we live in interesting times.

[Quokka]

Euronator has touched on a very important subject... maximum number of shifts per year.

In Oz, there is no maximum, but there is an enterprise incentive in place to encourage controllers to work extra days each year to supplement their income accompanied by a culture of aggressive intimidation to ensure that controllers attend for an arbitrary minimum of overtime shifts over the course of the year.

For some time I've been pondering the dilemma of how conditions may be improved in Australia without requiring a Keynesian inspired corporate failure accompanied by a significant increase in risk within Australian aviation during the transition to some kind of aviation nirvana.

However, in respect of Air Traffic Control, it could be as simple as lobbying CASA to regulate a maximum number of shifts per year that a controller can be allowed to work... with absolutely no exceptions.

Before everyone starts screaming about the removal of their supplementary income (overtime payments), have a think about what might follow...

Less shifts per year = reduced fatigue therefore increased safety.

Less shifts per year = more controllers required.

Global shortage = less controllers available (including ab initio).

Less controllers available = increased salary package to attract and retain controllers (Market forces applied, therefore no requirement for legally-hazardous industrial action).

Hours enforced by CASA = an end to the culture of aggressive intimidation.

An end to the culture of aggressive intimidation = increase in morale.

Increase in morale = increase in safety.

[SM4 Pirate]

Building on the theme Quokka, what about hours plugged in as the count? In a similar manner that pilots track flying time.

[Plazbot]

a culture of aggressive intimidation to ensure that controllers attend for an arbitrary minimum of overtime shifts over the course of the year.

I have not done an ED this EBA period. The aggressive intimidation is only aggressive and intimidating to the softco cks who are the ones constantly voting in these weak as pi ss EBAs.

The part of the world I live in these days makes me shake my head the way they faal over themselves to do EDs and Change of Shift. In the next breath they are complaining about not being able to take their Long Service Leave.

Lucky I don't carry a gun at work. :zzz:

[takeonme]

So have we all had a look at the new CA by now? Whats everyone think?

[Plazbot]

I have already heard people saying they think we are asking for too much and as a result will stall their pay rise:ugh:

If anything, the pay scale section still falls behind where we should be compared to the rest of the country. The OJTI part has merit as I am a prime example of someone who no longer holds the endorsement which causes headaches often for the rostering people. The leave hours are OK I guess.

I would have preferred some form of duty limitation framework. Even if it did not get up now, at least there is a legitimate starting point had we shown something.

It is all academic any way as the usual suspects will undermine any actual leverage we have.

[dsham]

There are so many rumours flying around at the moment, what is the general gist of what is being asked for? I have heard as low as 3.5% to 15%?????? Will we have to sacrifice conditions for a better wage?

[Roger Standby]

Takeonme,

There is no new CA. AsA have offered nothing and are not even ready to proceed with negotiations. :ugh:

To the rest of the controllers asking questions here, why not get on the civilair website and check it out for yourselves, FFS. All your questions, opinions and thoughts have been voiced there. :rolleyes:

Plazbot, AsA have absolutely no interest in introducing a regulatory framework for hours worked. Try the other extreme - they will do everything this time around to have POR's removed and work solely on FAID.

CASA are the ones who need to introduce that sort of arrangement and their theory of "Outcome based legislation" (see p58 May/June Flight Safety) is just another way for them to sit on their hands and do nothing until someone f@rks up. They are a disgrace. CASA essentially says "You tell us what you think you need to do and if it looks ok, we won't argue" ie. open slather for companies to write what they want and word it how they want as long as it looks legally kosher.:=

[Quokka]

To the rest of the controllers asking questions here, why not get on the civilair website and check it out for yourselves, FFS. All your questions, opinions and thoughts have been voiced there.

Do you believe that Civilair can deliver?

[SM4 Pirate]

Do you believe that Civilair can deliver?The will of the union is the will of the members. If we want it bad enough then the cards are up our sleeve; convincing the employer that we are committed is the main thing.

dsham, are you for real? Read the document.

[Roger Standby]

Do you believe that Civilair can deliver?

As I said, feel free to check out my thoughts on the civilair website. There's enough loonies on this website to destroy any rational discussion. If I want the opinions of those not in ATC, then I'll ask for it, but for "in house" business, I think we should use the appropriate forum.:ok:

[Quokka]

Sorry, who was that who's not in ATC?

[Roger Standby]

The post above by dsham makes me wonder. But honestly, in this forum who knows? Exactly why I make the point.... again.

If you want to discuss something with the rest of the aviation community, by all means post away. If you want a discussion amongst controllers then...

[Plazbot]

The civil air forum is a horses arse. Not only is there wind filled hollow chest thumping that is never ever backed up but I can't make the friggn thing work any more with the new log in system.

[whymefly]

Hello all,

Just a thought: the proposed CA may look very very optimistic, but here's a point.
If you deduct the composite part of the salary, we qualified, professional, understaffed controllers fit in somewhere between a bricklayer and a plumber on the true wages scale. Think about that, the proposed CA would put us back where we should be.
To those who think we're doing well at the moment: get your 10 year old to show you the maths, it's that simple.
Only question is are we really gonna hang out the white flag... again?:oh:

[TrafficTraffic]

get your 10 year old to show you the maths

I believe PLAZBOT is not allowed within 75 Metres of any 10 year olds, something about a misunderstanding.....


TT
:ouch:

[max1]

Plazbot,

Get off your ar$E, ring Civilair and sort out your internet access. When is that bag of rocks you keep chucking going to run out? It is actually your name with a fullstop between your first and last name then your password. Don't try to use your disguised user name.It will come up when you post Sorry can't help you with your password, its supposed to be secret. (Like your use of the Mt Cootha dunnies.)

[Plazbot]

Setting up cameras trying to catch trafficx2.

re: web site. I have emailed and had my password reset. It worked then when i logged out, it no longer worked and it says that name.lastname is not a registered user.

What ever.

[Hempy]

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0764541730.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Plazbot]

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/images/HA_HA_GUY.jpg

[dabelstein]

The controller's friend, Dick Smith, on ABC local radio in Brisbane today saying what a travesty it was that Airservices cannot even provide an ATC service between Sydney and Brisbane any more due staff shortages. Apparently last Saturday afternoon all classes of airspace were TIBA from 45N of SY to abeam Coffs. And then later on that night from Coffs to south of Brisbane. His solution, (wait for it) if we can't attract enough controllers we should pay them more. Sign this bloke up!

[putytat]

Any alignment of Mr Smith's and Civilair's agendas are temporary at best, and only exist because of a perceived advantage by Mr Smith. His real agenda will not be realised until a later date, as with everything he does.

Everyone who has sided with this man comes unstuck. One day you agree with him and the next your previous correspondence to him is posted on this website with the accompanying rhetoric.

ATC and Civilair should fight this battle alone. Civilair do not need him to fight this battle. Current union hierarchy should contact the previous few union presidents to receive advice on Mr Smith's methods and the lengths he will go to when his agendas do not align with others.

[Hempy]

putytat speaks with straight tongue;


There was a young lady of Riga,
Who went for a ride on a tiger;
They returned from the ride
With the lady inside,
And a smile on the face of the tiger.

[BN APP 125.6]

Topzalp/Plazbot,

Are you sure, about your not being able to access the CA website?

[Plazbot]

Yeah. Not for a number of months now. Managed two posts. Tried again today and still tells me user not registered. Is there something I am missing?

[BN APP 125.6]

Ck your PM's.

[concernaviat]

TFN deflected criticism in his announcement on the Avnet today re him being slow to start CA negotiations. He went on to bash the unions over the disgraceful negotiations last time and blame everyone but himself.

When oh when is the Rudd Government going to appoint a Chairman and dispense with this poor excuse for a CEO.

[undervaluedATC]

for any journo's trolling this site, please don't be surprised when our staffing gets worse.

On 12th may, after being 2 weeks late to start EBA negoiations (6 months prior to expiry), AsA then said they would need 4-5 weeks to have anything ready.

so, 5 weeks later, AsA finally gets to another meeting to say
"Unfortunately, Airservices are presently unable to provide any of their proposals as they need the Airservices Board to sign off on the proposals. This Board meeting will occur on 24 June. "

so much for being keen to start negoiations, or do so in good faith (as per TFN's statements). I'm pretty sure board meetings are scheduled well in advance - why not just say back in May that they'd still be delaying til the end of june?

unless there is a quick resolution to this, my grey-haired companions in defined benfits are going to leave because their super pays almost the same for no shiftwork, and anybody with more than 5 years experience is going to go overseas for an immediate payrise that would take another 5-6 years to achieve here (assuming their manager approved it).

[Slugfest]

they need the Airservices Board to sign off on the proposals


WHAT kind of F($*#*ing proposals need to be signed off before talks start?

Does this not say to all and sundry that the offer you (finally) get to see is a take it or leave it deal or what!

No, it does not bode well at all that any discussions will be in good faith and conducted in the "a better way of doing it" mantra.

I can hear it now........."we'd like to pay more but the governement has restricted us"

"the cats eaten it" would be more credible IMHFO.

Watch this space wreckin' fans

[peuce]

I think you're all panicking for nothing ... I think they have prepared such a generous proposal that they need the Board's approval to offer it :E

[BN APP 125.6]

Unfortunately, we are unable to provide an answer to your phone call , as any of your phoned through proposals on how I spend my days off need the Board of the Wife/Husband/Kids/Dog to sign off on your proposals. This meeting will occur sometime after 24 June. Please leave a message after the beep"

http://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gifhttp://www.animationplayhouse.com/aacell1.gif

[Traffic]

Air Traffic Controllers are crying out for help

An air traffic controller's wife writes:

As the wife of an Air Traffic Controller, I’m angry, disheartened, and in complete shock as to what is happening in our aviation industry at present and cannot sit back and just watch this all go by.

Air Traffic Controllers are crying out for help and clarification. At the moment Air Traffic Controllers who are not trained on and hold no rating for certain positions are sitting at consoles looking at a radar screen whilst their fellow Air Traffic Controllers get a short toilet break to get them through their eight hour shift.

Air Traffic Controllers on numerous occasions have contacted CASA and Airservices Australia to clarify their position as to the legal implications of these circumstances. So far, no official response has been forthcoming. Air Services Australia have their heads so deeply stuck in the sand about the huge staffing crisis they don’t seem to think this is a problem. The fact that they are only receiving one such break during a shift is again another issue in itself.

Airservices Australia chief executive Greg Russell stood up in the Senate Estimates Committee and said with a straight face everything is going well; just a little too much reliance on overtime at the moment. There are Air Traffic Controllers working 10 shifts on and with one day off and starting this cycle again. Air Traffic Controllers are being called not once, not twice but up to five times on their day off to come in and are being made to feel pressured to attend work to prop up the system. Controllers are being called on whilst on annual leave.

The direction to the air traffic control line managers is to not let the airspace close (TIBA) at all costs. Currently Air Services Australia are having air space closures on an almost daily basis and this is ever increasing. Air Traffic Controllers for the past 10 years have been trying to provide ideas and suggestions to assist with a long term vision to deal with staffing issues.

Whilst airports are seeing huge increases in air traffic, passengers and tourism in the next few years they will not have any Controllers to actually see these aircraft come in safely. They are sick to death of being treated like second class citizens on one hand, and then on the other being asked to help prop up the system for the love of the job.

I have had enough, and I am just a Controller's wife, who is very upset and sick to death of the way Airservices Australia run their business. Imagine how the Air Traffic Controllers are feeling when they face it every day and are banging their heads against a brick wall on every issue they raise.

[BN APP 125.6]

They have been 'on to it' for quite some time now:

12 Feb 2008 (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=317&Itemid=51)
1 Feb 2008 (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=233&Itemid=51)
29 Jan 2008 (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=225&Itemid=51)
20 Nov 2007 (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=191&Itemid=51)
14 Nov 2007 (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=178&Itemid=51)

[Marauder]

Am I being simplistic, but what evere happenned when there was a supervisor overseeing multiple positions, and same said supervisor was rated on all of those positions, probably having worked his way up thru the ranks on those consoles.

When a short break was required the supervisor could sit in, legally, for that break.:ugh::ugh:

[CrazyMTOWDog]

Your not talking about the good ol days in RAAF ATC are you?

[Hempy]

Am I being simplistic, but what evere happenned when there was a supervisor overseeing multiple positions, and same said supervisor was rated on all of those positions, probably having worked his way up thru the ranks on those consoles.

When a short break was required the supervisor could sit in, legally, for that break

Your not talking about the good ol days in RAAF ATC are you?

Dunno, he may talking about the "good ole days" with 1 (one) manager in the room (Cenco), team leaders who were FPC and rated on all positions but weren't rostered to hold down a line, and rostering that covered breaks for everyone. Of course, TAAATS is so "good" that the bean counters figured staffing could be halved, more "managers" and less "controllers" were required, and the system would run itself............

[Marauder]

No. not at all. Never RAAF

In no way condoning the ASA run down of a system that was once world class, and covered over 10%of the planet. I'm referring to a system where akeen young sprog that would work their way thru Flight Data, onto Procedural Sectors, then Radar Sectors, Arrivals, Approach, and approaching retirement age, would become the SAAC. These wise old blokes (sorry ladies, back then they all were blokes, mainly gentlemen), had been there, seen it all. On a doggo, if you needed a leek, pie in the microwave etc they could step in, legally, as they normally retained most of the ratings.

The ratings that they still hadn't retained were never left as single staff postions anyway, i.e App in most centres has a Radar Controlller, and Co-ord, both legally rated to cover all of the TMA slots.

I ask the question now, from the other side of the fence now, what the **** is my Company paying ASA for except Executive bonuses!

To the troops in the field, live long and prosper.

[bigsis]

Majority of supervisors in the two major centres don't hold endorsements anymore (which in some individual cases is safer) as they are too busy supervising us!!

The System Supervisors (up the front) don't hold ratings either.

If you need a toilet break and no other rated person for your sector is there you have to ask the supervisor (generally unrated) to listen while you go wee wee. Just hope you pee quick.

And the issues just escalate when you start talking about rest breaks when no rated staff to handover to.

[Slugfest]

Taking this supervisor thing one step futher and an interesting situation that is the subject of a round of emails at the moment.

What is the go when an area is NOTAMed as TIBA and sometime during this period an ATC chirps up on freq and announces that they should not "be there" but will "monitor" the situation while a number of aircraft sort themselves out.


"I can feel a lawsuit comin' on"

[TrafficTraffic]

On a doggo, if you needed a leek, pie in the microwave etc they could step in, legally, as they normally retained most of the ratings.


SAACs and STACs maintaing all the ratings - what are you on - I think we were a little more....well - understanding back then......I can remember one bloke(sic) doing all the Sydney sectors whilst we had BBQs on the fire escape....

....those were the days....


TT

[Binoculars]

I think we were a little more....well - understanding back then.

And oddly enough, the system still seemed to work, but that applies to all sectors of employment doesn't it? It's one reason why so many dinosaurs like me got out before our time.

1983:

XXX: Ready

TWR: XXX, line up, be ready for immediate rolling start, 747 on three mile final

TWR to APP: Next XXX, give me something mate!

APP: Jesus,, are you kidding? Ok, separate runway heading unrestricted; **** I hope this works

TWR: XXX MR, clear for immediate takeoff!

QF1: Tower, I don't like the look of this...

TWR: QF1, Continue approach expect late landing clearance, it'll fit.

TWR to APP: Skinny five, Billy, separate in the turn, over to you mate.

APP: thanks a bunch! You owe me one........



2005: XXX ready for immediate.

TWR. (thinks.... if I line this Citation up and it doesn't work that bastard on Approach will have an incident report in on me before the Citation gets airborne. I'll be in more **** than a Hunter Brothers truck. Stuff that.)

"Hold short of the runway, expect three minute delay."

It ain't the controllers, folks, it's the system.

First and last "good old days" story, I promise!

[BN APP 125.6]

Different issues at hand here.

One is experience.

The other is resources.

We are losing the former and have not enough of the latter - to mould in to the former.

Bino's transcript now would be something more like:

QF1: "Tower I don't like the look of this..."

QF1: " Tower? Hello, anybody there?...."

(Sorry Captain - he caught the last QF2 out of here on his way to <insert fair paying destination> )

[CrazyMTOWDog]

Would that be Launceston or Melbourne Tower?

[Roger Standby]

Would that be Launceston or Melbourne Tower?

That would require a separate sector approach controller so it wouldn't be any of the regional towers I can think of.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re; "First and last "good old days" story, I promise!"

AW, c'mon 'Binos'.......You have a wealth of them I'd bet......

Best Regards:ok::ok:

[Binoculars]

Yep, and they all get better with the telling.

The older I get, the better I was!

[undervaluedATC]

TFN continues to pour fuel on the fire.

in the latest "Azimuth" (AsA's own monthly magazine that spruiks how good a job they are doing :mad: )

""Q: So, if we have made progress as you say, why are we still having so many service interruptions in specific areas?

A: The problem that I see is that there is still a view amongst some of our controllers that they are not willing to accept overtime. I appeal to the majority of our people who are decent and professional Air Traffic Controllers to understand that we are working to resolve this issue, they may think that it has come too late in some respects and in some respects frankly it has, but I am seeking their commitment to help us through this period."

So if I don't accept Ad's I'm not professional? Or decent? How about this TFN - I DON'T do ad's because I'm looking after my fatigue levels. AND I'M ENTITLED TO HAVE DAYS OFF!!!!

the only explanation I can think of for this comment is that he is trying to provoke a reaction from us and paint us in a bad light. NEWSFLASH: the over-reliance on overtime was not caused by ATC's but by poor management planning. And you can't fix it overnight. You want our help - you better treat us with respect, not vieled insults.

[max1]

Nearly all had been doing large amounts of overtime, and telling those above we were tired of propping up the system.
When TFN first joined, he went on a self proclaimed no BS tour. Everytime he met with controllers he was told of the overtime and lack of staffing. He told us that he was 'hearing us' with a very sincere look on his face and that he would fix this.
Fast forward nearly 3 years on. Nothings changed, there is no way 195 trained, licensed controllers will be pumped out by Dec 2009.It physically cannot be done, in fact they haven't even published the training plan yet and we are 6 months into the 2 years.
It is cheaper, and in TFNs interest, to pay O/T ,fatiguing the professional and decent controllers, and increase the bottom line . This is where bonuses come from.
Professional and decent controllers have made a decision to protect their health and relationships. They have lost faith in TFN and Co. dealing effectively with this problem. Why would they it affects the bottom line.
What was the line about You've got it made when you can fake sincerity.

[BN APP 125.6]

I can't figure out if this bloke is confused, misinformed, provocative or simply 100% incompetent.

The confusion argument is pretty sound - just a couple of weeks ago he was telling Senators that his orgnisation was relying too much on controllers doing overtime and it wasn't sustainable.

Now he is telling the controllers they are a bunch of bludgers who are not doing enough overtime, and that this makes them somehow unprofessional.

At the same time he kind of admits it his fault there are not enough staff - and for us to all understand.

Mate we have understood it for many years - you might recall us S H O U T I N G it at you relentlessly from the day you walzted in and commenced to totally ignore the calls to fix the pending demographic destiny that was awaiting us, and all the industry that relies on us.

By the way - they rely on an Air Traffic Service - not an Air Traffic Business. I really dont think they give a rats how big a profit you give to the government of the day (and to yourselves at the top) if you fail to provide the basics of this service.

And you are failing.

You might want to engender a bit of loyalty in your remaining experienced professionals - after all you cant seem to keep them here in Australia to start with.

This kind of insulting nonsense is not the way to do it.

I would have thought someone in your Canberra castle might have whispered that in to your ever-deafening ear.

The again, they too would probably have been ignored.

Pity the poor sod who is going to inherit this mess when you parachute out with your pockets full of cash.

[Baileys]

Someone forward this link to Canberra - maybe there is hope that they can learn something...

http://www.video.news.com.au?vxSiteId=164be818-84c2-4715-b29e-2db589f12564&vxChannel=Entertainment%20Special&vxClipId=1094_250947&vxBitrate=300

[BN APP 125.6]

I think they already saw it.

Following that they sacked the gym staff and outsourced it to save $3.50.

The happiness hits just keep on coming....

[Starts with P]

Is there a CEO school that is teaching all of this? TFN and Dixon are going for High Distinctions in "Employee Relations for CEOs 101".

[undervaluedATC]

Another little piece of info for any trolling journos

here we are nearly TWO MONTHS past when - according to our current EBA - negotiations were meant to commence, and STILL NO OFFER FROM AsA.

They did mention a board meeting next week - maybe after that.

I'll make a prediction that it will be after WAYPOINT 2008 - and after AsA sets the ASP charges to airlines - so they can then say "sorry, we've already priced your wages for the next five years" [with what consulation, exactly?]

but then, I guess I'm just a cynic.

[Baileys]

Abu Dhabi would give you an offer quicker than that......

[email protected]
Yousef Al Nabahin
HR Officer (Recruitment in Charge)
General Civil Aviation Authority
Tel.: +971 2 4054210
Fax: +971 2 4054535
P. O. Box:6558 Abu Dhabi,UAE

[Louis Cypher]

Following that they sacked the gym staff and outsourced it to save $3.50

Don't forget the pot plants that had to go in the name of 'economy' :{

[Funk]

Abu Dhabi would give you an offer quicker than that......

http://www.pprune.org/forums/newreply.php?emailimage=802a94ee90e4642025a7ccc394782ed8
Yousef Al Nabahin
HR Officer (Recruitment in Charge)
General Civil Aviation Authority
Tel.: +971 2 4054210
Fax: +971 2 4054535
P. O. Box:6558 Abu Dhabi,UAEIf you want AU$13,400K/month but living in your car (Audi A8 or Holden Caprice SS has plenty of legroom) it would be ok, I guess?:} (DXB App is AU$16K/month and the housing is cheaper). Leave is 7 weeks plus. GCAA is 20 short. The main reason we're short is EUR6.5k/month net offered by Ireland and the Noggies are going back to Oslo for their EUR160K p.a. (Controller 15yrs exp.). The yarps aren't gonna save us this time they've already left for greener pastures.

AsA says that its going to start a drive to bring Aussies home in 2009, dude where's the counter offer?

[boree3]

Quote:
the Noggies are going back to Oslo for their EUR160K p.a.

Could you confirm the above? According to XE.Com that`s a tad under AUS$262 000!!!!!:eek:

Blonds, Fjords, Blonds. Where do i apply?:)

[undervaluedATC]

don't they have a state health care system that actually works as well?

wonder what the cost of living is like in Oslo?

[Quokka]

Blonds, Fjords, Blonds. Where do i apply?

Better odds in Latvia. The ratio of women to men is 4 to 1, according to a lovely Latvian film actress I was lucky to have a chat with over a beer earlier this year. Ethnically, they're all Swedish babes, but... the Latvian ATC website employment page says... "No Vacancies". :{

[dsham]

Oslo -
Beer at Pub = $11-12 AU
Coffee at Cafe $6-$7 AU
1lt of Petrol = $2.60 (trains actually run on time though)
Big Mac Meal = $18-20 AU

Best Social Welfare and Health System on Earth - but you pay for it with 50% tax....XMAS and summer bonuses are quite good though.

[Funk]

Quote:
the Noggies are going back to Oslo for their EUR160K p.a.

Could you confirm the above? According to XE.Com that`s a tad under AUS$262 000!!!!!:eek:

Blonds, Fjords, Blonds. Where do i apply?:)Yes that is before tax and yes the cost of living is astronomical, but they are a very well of society and as a Swedish mate of mine said with all their oil they are the Arabs of the north :ok:

Interestingly enough they have been through the whole AsA style restructure and change for change sake management which resulted in mass resignations and strikes. In the last 18 months the Norwegian salaries have nearly doubled as well their new management actively sought out their ex-pats here in the sandpit with firm offers to come home without psychometric bull**** testing or HR wank interveiw processes.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

This morning we have big discussion in our unit regarding possibility to move and work in Australia as a qualified ATCOs. So I will ask in the names of my colleagues:
1. Is there any other ATC provider except ASA in Australia, and what are conditions if such company exists?
2.As ASA doesn't recruit foreign ATCOs now,what are chances to get job there as an ATCO if you emigrate in Australia under any other legal way? i.e . Spouse could obtain Visa,then ATCO enters as a family member than apply for job within ASA ...
3.if it works like this what are the chances to choose place for work? If spouse get job in Adelaide,is it allowed and achievable for ATCO to get job in that corner of your country/
Thanks for correct answers

[phew_they_missed!]

SINGA,

1. ASA is the only ATC provider here (unless you count the airforce...who i very much doubt will be recruiting from overseas!)
2. I beleive it is still a possibility to be recruited from overseas straight into the company, they are just not "actively" recruiting anymore (i think the last exercise was a little expensive for them!). This may help : ATC Recruitment (http://airservicesaustralia.com/employment/atc/atcrecruitment.asp).
3. You will have little chance of choosing where you end up unless you are asking for Brisbane or Melbourne. I'm guessing that if you were accepted and offered a job, you might be able to specify which centre you want to go to as a condition of your acceptance. Most jobs are in those 2 cities. Either way you will be in Melbourne for a while to do some training.

Good luck!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Thanks for the answer,
Could you confirm that both ways are absolutely possible:
-Direct entry and,
-Enter upon any other legal way and than apply for job as a resident?

[phew_they_missed!]

I can't be definite sorry.

Direct entry should still be an option, it would be best to contact ASA recruitment and ask them though. There is no reason that they can't recruit you straight in as far as i know.

If you can get australian residency you can apply once here, no problem. I know of someone from overseas who got here first them applied for the job, and he is training at the moment....and he has no prioir ATC experience. If no one else pops up with more information i will speak to him when get back to work in a couple of days and ask him if there was any citizenship requirements to applying.

[max1]

Singa,
ASA are desperate, I think the real reason that they have gone cold on the O/S recruitment is the knockbacks they have been getting.
O/S controllers, who are displacing themselves and maybe families, can do a hell of a lot better elsewhere.
They have just substantially upped their offers to entice RAAF (our airforce) controllers over.
I doubt you would get Adelaide but I wouldn't be shy in contacting them and letting them know of your interest.

[Zesty]

I'm currently an ATC with ASA, having moved to Australia from overseas. At the time I was recruited (as an ab-initio), I was living in Australia as a Permanant Resident. As I recall, all I needed to do was demonstrate that I had the right to live and work in Australia to meet that part of the selection criteria.

I would have thought that if you obtained permanant residency in your own right (rather than being sponsored in some fashion by ASA - assuming they may do such a thing) then you'd be in a stronger position to negotiate your entry payscale and location with ASA as an overseas controller.

Migration information can be found at Workers - Visas & Immigration (http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/index.htm)

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Thanks for answers,but those answers open new door,and since asa web site is not precise at some places we would like to ask:
1.apart from Brisbane and Melbourne centre is there any other unit with app/rdr facility? Here in Europe we have a lot of units where twr/app/rdr is located at the tower building. This question for us is important because people are multi rated and no one wants to be just twr atco for ages. We believe that there is huge salary difference between units and twr atcos and app/rdr atcos.
2.What could be a salary(net) for direct entry twr atco,provided that such possibility exists?
Thanks,

[phew_they_missed!]

There are many towers and/or approach cells accross australia. Quick list: Perth, Adelaide, Alice Springs, Hobart, Launceston and more.

The problem is that many of the jobs at centres outside of Melbourne and Brisbane are popular...not everyone wants to live in those 2 places!

The salaries vary. There is very little difference between the pay for an approach controller and a tower controller at a major city aerodrome. Tower controllers at smaller cities (eg Launceston) can earn less though.

As far as what kind of salary you can expect if you get here. Well, you would probably have to negotiate that if you get offered a position. I beleive ASA have recently had to offer the international recruits a higher than normal starting pay just to attract them. I imagine if you are a suitably qualified person with skills we need then you would have some leeway as to where your pay would start.

Also, be aware that we are currently in negotiations with ASA over pay and conditions for the next few years, so things may change a little in the next 6 months (hopefully!)

If you need more detail, PM me an email address and i'll email you the currrent agreement from work.

[undervaluedATC]

well, today was the 4th meeting between the union and AsA.

and lo and behold.....

AsA still has not tabled an offer. :ugh:

2 and a 1/2 months into the so-called negotiation period. (and 1+1/2 months after the first actual meeting on the 12th May)

not sure what's been negotiated so far. :mad:

AsA did say that CivilAir's vision document - which someone was happy enough to leak to the media with connotations that it was a claim (even though officially it is not) - quote " tells them nothing". :{

AsA then apparently went on to schedule further meetings where they wish to discuss "rostering flexibility" amongst other things. :rolleyes:

just when I think my morale can't get any lower, this lack of good faith negotiation plunges it even further.

fortunately, my dissatisfaction has an inverse relationship with my morale.

[max1]

Something from what ASA are aiming at

Flexibility - specifically rostering and a desire to move to a fatigue based system.

Apologies to those whose knowledge of fatigue predictive tools is little or non-existent. Ours is based on past and future shift runs to predict your decision making abilities, but not how tired you are.

Using the ASA system ( which apparently the company who sold it to them aren't happy about, and told ASA they are using it incorrectly) leaves you with scenarios like this-
Controller rostered for a 7am-3pm shift the next day,then asked to cover for night shift that night 11pm-6am instead.This is on the back end of a run of shifts.

Fatigue was assessed by machine that he would just break the limit. The limit is 80. (80 what, I have no idea).. ASA have a habit of lopping 15 minutes here and there to get under magical limit. (This is one part of the reason that the designers are unhappy with ASA).
Controller works the shift, then the Supervisor notices that the 7am-3pm shift has not been deleted from the fatigue computer.

Out of interest he asks the machine to reassess the fatigue rating, wondering how high it will go. Drumroll. The machine has dropped the fatigue rating way DOWN, supervisor checks again and again, and can't work it out.At the top of fatigue then one hour break followed by a full shift and now he's LESS tired.
Sends off query to company that designed it.
Company sends back reply. Now, apparently based on this system your body clock 'resets' when the sun comes up.

So next time you've been up all night, just stay up until the sun comes up, and you'll be right. I've done it before and to a certain extent its true, but to build rosters based on that kind of logic to work constant 24/7 shifts is ridiculous.

[undervaluedATC]

The limit is 80.

IIRC, an normal 9-5 M-F worker gets a score of about 40 each week.

but we're shift workers, and somehow tougher, so we're allowed to be twice as tired and still "be okay"

BTW, every roster I've ever worked/been involved in, all have tend to have an acquittal period (average out) of 6 to 12 weeks - and nearly every one gets close to the magical number of 80 at least once in the aforementioned period.

and thats before you work any overtime.

let alone, say 2 extra shifts (out of the 5) that I've been offered over the last two days. :rolleyes:

[Here to Help]

Does anyone know an equivalent blood alcohol level for a FAID score of 80?

[missy]

undervaluedATC said
AsA still has not tabled an offer

As they say in the classics, "I'm surprised you are surprised".

Delay tactics 101. Despite all the rherotic a leopard doesn't change its spots.

[bigsis]

Don't quote me but I thought 80 was the equivalent to .05

[RektlSfinkta]

Sorry, I'm gonna quote you

Don't quote me but I thought 80 was the equivalent to .05

You have a decision to make - go to work or stay at home and drink a six pack
I know which way I would rather have my abilities impaired!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Guys FAID is the greatest scam ever inflicted on workers.

I once had the great misfortune to be the CP of an international corporate jet operation and had to deal with CASA at a time when they had the hots for FAID as an alternative to CAO 48 and sundry dispensations. One of the morons from the university of south Australia who had dreamt this **** up in a lab to address fatigue in long distance truck drivers was then working for CASA as a 'consultant':rolleyes:

Having taken a great deal of time to get my head around it and after not insignificant expense on the part of my company for the computer program I determined it was a monumental WOFTAM about the same time as CASA took fright at the concept...not long after I told them we'd be happy continuing with CAO 48 thank you very fecking much.

I take some pride in the faint possibility that some of my more 'direct' observations on FAID made in phone conversations to CASA (including said moron) at the time may have contributed to their level of discomfort and it's subsequent fall from favor.

The great failing of FAID is it takes no account of 'life' in its calculation of fatigue, there is only 'work' and 'non work'. 'Work' attracts a fatigue score and 'non work' does not. 'Non work' assumes you are existing in a stress free bubble immune from 'life' when ever you're not doing 'work'. It assumes you never mow the lawn, run around paying bills, drive the kids to school, play sport (forget cardiovascular health - that would attract a BIG FAID score), argue with the wife...etc.

It is the sort of ****e that could only be dreamed up by a academic in a lab.

The only way FAID could ever hope of spitting out a reasonable answer would be if EVERYTHING you do, or don't do - think not get decent sleep in the middle of the day, in every 24 hr period was assigned a score and entered into the program...wouldn't that go down a treat with AsA?

According to our FAID software we could operate Singapore (our base) to Kathmandu return single crew and stay under 80. I did that trip many times with two crew and we all arrived home knackered...it was often an 18 hour duty (starting at some dumb time of night) filled with bad weather and much stress dealing with 3rd world officialdom of the worst kind.

FAID is a scam.

[max1]

Chimbu,
I'm reasonably certain that is the one we have, unfortunately ATC don't have regulated hours under CAO 48 , and CASA have been quite happy for our rosters to operate under our Principle Of Rostering (POR's).

It is these PORs that ASA would like to get rid of. They are not that restrictive .

They allow among other things, for a return to work after only an 8 hour break, and that 10 shifts in a row can be worked. Through Facilitative Arrangements shift lengths of 15 hours have been worked. They mandate that you must get at least a 20 minute break in a 7 hour shift, except if you work in a remote single person operation e.g. regional towers, where you are on your own.FAID tends to give all these things a big tick.

ASA consider these things restrictive and archaic, and would like to roster split shifts i.e. work 5-9am to cover the peaks, then return and work 4-8pm that evening and count it as one shift.

We have been to CASA to regulate hours but this is in the 'TOO HARD' basket and they are content for ASA to self regulate (sound familiar), and I am loathe to think what timeframe would be involved if ASA got rid of PORs and we then relied on CASA to implement regulated hours for us.

You are right , FAID is a scam.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

... All 100% spot on Chuck!
.
.... drum roll
.
CASA will not (apparently) regulate ATC duty times as they believe:-
.
"AsA is a mature organisation with systems to match, and therefore they do not need to intervene" :ugh:
.
... oh well, the paper trail is there highlighting the failings for when the inevitable occurs" :ugh: :mad:
.
Edit
.
.... pollogies Max ... posted same time as you!

[SM4 Pirate]

Chimbu,

I agree wholeheartedly, the testing validation process is done in the main with university types; when I was at university I had a very different circadian rhythm than I do today; lifesytle, friends, parties vs working, families and household chores.

FAID is a part of the 'FMS'; but the other elements of the FMS don't kick in until you bust the magic FAID score.

FAID is not measured against 'task performed'; it is universal; the task of Melbourne Tower is very different to the task of Perth Approach; particularly in the wee small hours.

ASA is a joke, but they have someone, or something they can blame when it goes tits up, such is the safety culture at the moment.

The senates "beyond the midnight oil" report called for 'ATC Duty hours' yet 8 years later we have an inept regulator unable to process a simple regulation change guaranteeing safety as a higher priority than ASA's profit.

There latest excuse was that hours are contained in the (principles of Rostering" (POR) section of the Certified Agreement so it's not needed; yet the employer whilst giving us nothing so far has indicated it need more rostering flexibility; ie the PORs are up for grabs according to the employer.

The devil in me says give'm up and then wonder why the workers call in sick twice as much; however they want to change sickleave too.

[Stationair8]

Valid comment Chimbu in relation to FAID and how experts think shift workers can work back of the clock and still be mentally fit.

Interesting bit on Sixty Minutes a few weeks ago in relation to how your reactions slow down as you become more tired.

Amazing how many c%$t's are experts on fatigue management, but never done shift work in their life.

CASA CAO48 Exemption is a bloody lethal document, split shifts, minimum rest periods, two days off in fourteen days etc. Great work CASA!!!

[Quokka]

Excellant post Chimbu.

It is the sort of ****e that could only be dreamed up by a academic in a lab.

Not all of the boffins agree...

One Sleep Researcher I know was stunned when he read the Australian ATC roster and Principles of Rostering that I showed him over lunch one day. His said with confidence that it was the complete opposite of what we should be working. But then, he does spend his days testing and treating people for Sleep Disorders... not sitting in a small office down a back corridor of a University fudging raw data to achieve a Correlation Co-efficient of 1.0 for that next Higher Degree that one might be obsessed with achieving at the expense of a legitimate contribution to the Body of Knowledge.

[Slugfest]

Quok,

The average ATC punter wants to work "Evening, Afternoon, Morning and Doggo" in 3.5 days because it "maximises the time off". The fact that they then spend most of the 2 days off feeling like Sh1t seems to escape them apparently.

Any thinking person knows that we should not work the style of roster that the masses keep implementing but yet the "majority" vote wins all the time.

You cannot help stupid I'm afraid.

Slug

[bigsis]

You can quote me now - a FAID score of 80 is equivalent to a blood alcohol level of .05.

I believe there are a few rosters around that regularly FAID in the 70s.

[Quokka]

Slug... as sad as it is and with the best of intentions... Oz ATC still cling to what they have worked for years... because they have never worked anything else.

Sleep research on night shifts demonstrated that full recovery from a night shift does not occur until after four days have lapsed since cessation of duty on the night shift.

The roster I now work has me finishing the second night shift (the last shift in my rostered six shifts-in-a-row) at 7AM and I return for duty exactly four days later at 7AM. The first two days off are a bit of a hangover (no pun intended), but the third and fourth day are fine.

Six shifts worked every ten calendar days. Never called in on my days off (one of the six shifts, once a month, is a Grey Evening). The shortest break between shifts is 16 hours (three times a week) and the longest break between shifts is 24 hours (twice a week).

I'm rostered to work two night shifts every ten days... and night shifts are hard no matter how you roster them... yet this roster is a lot easier to work than the Australian roster and you have plenty of time off between shifts for your daily routine and to relax.

Depending on how I work my annual recreation leave, I can easily achieve the maximum of 16... yes 16 calendar weeks off work (if taken in fortnightly blocks). Which results in a total of 50 night shifts rostered in a year (not including Grey Evening call-outs... of which I've had to attend for one in the last twelve months).

Oh, and did I mention... we're short of staff. I've changed lines once on the roster in twelve months and I was given two extra days off as compensation.

If Civilair cannot negotiate a roster that doesn't get manipulated and a leave entitlement close to what we enjoy here and in other parts of the ATC world, then something is seriously wrong.

FAID is a fools game played by ALM's who think that it will protect them legally when a tired controller bangs two together... it will not.

A retired member of the legal fraternity in Australia told me not so long ago that the findings in Court in Switzerland following the collision over German airspace would be considered by an Australian Judge in determining individual and collective criminal liability following a collision in Australia. Australian ATC ALM's should look very closely at the findings... very very closely... because FAID will not protect you.

[amberale]

Most Oz ATC rosters are only valid at the moment due to variations from POR agreed to by a majority of the people on the roster.
These agreements contravene POR

These variations range from shifts exceeding 7 hours to rosters aquitting over 50 weeks.

8 hour shifts were available under "teams".
This used to mean team days[admin, refresher training, input into procedures, etc], one team with one dedicated team leader.

ASA has now deemed that when you start a shift today, you and the people you are working with are a team and therefore working in a team environment.

I can see ASA saying that we don't need POR anymore as most of our staff don't wan't to work rosters that comply to them anyway.

Shooting ourselvses in the foot IMNSHO.

AA

[divingduck]

mate....nail, head, bang on!:ok:

Could you imagine how lonely it would get in the middle east with one of those ridiculous Oz rosters?
Management would be talking to themselves within a week, as NO ONE would work them.
Exactly why the OZ ATC fraternity has put up with them for this long beggars belief.:ugh:

[SINGAPURCANAC]

I did search trough this part of pprune and I must confirm that I am little confused.
Australian ATCOs claims that there is huge shortage of ATCOs ,sometimes you declare status of controlled areas as G class due to shortage , but your company sends ATCOs to some USA towers for contract job? :confused:
Let me correct if I do not understand that issue properly

[undervaluedATC]

SLUGFEST The average ATC punter wants to work &quot;Evening, Afternoon, Morning and Doggo in 3.5 days because it maximises the time off. guess I'm in the minority then. but then, I also prefer to work 5on 2off because it generally means more time off between shifts. And no, I'm not a grey-haired close-to-retiring type. I'm much closer to 30 than 40, but I just find that E-A-M-N cycle soooo tiring. I like to think that more and more people are realising just how ordinary our rosters are compared to overseas. The trouble is that with our staffing shortages, I just can't see us moving to 6 shifts over 10 days any time soon. Mores the pity SINGAPURCANAC: Australian ATCOs claims that there is huge shortage of ATCOs ,sometimes you declare status of controlled areas as G class due to shortage , but your company sends ATCOs to some USA towers for contract job? I could go on and on and on about our management and their (now publicly admitted) poor grasp of our staffing situation. Another restructure that we had to have took approximately 100 controllers and elevated them to Line Manager positions where most do not work traffic anymore - and a lot of them "supervise" positions that they don't have ratings on. I think they have forgotten what our core business is supposed to be - Air traffic Control.

[ForGreaterSafety]

Not saying it would work at AsA, but I like the roster I worked in the RAAF. 4 afternoons, 2 off, 4 mornings, 2 off etc. I know there is at least one more shift to consider but how would working the same shift on all 4 days pan out. When I was in the police force you rotated shifts around but the doggo would be the same for 6 days running and then 4 days off and back on to an afternoon. Any comments on how working the same shift for the 4 days looks to you guys is welcome.

Ta

[oldbull youngbull]

FGS,

I did the rostering for my group for quite a while. I had tried on numerous occasions to suggest there was a better way of working shift work. From block rosters as you suggest above to semi blocks. It was overwhelmingly voted down, and that was just a trial:ugh:

Your average ATC will not budge from the evening, arvo, morn, dog quick change nightmare that we work.

They will though, continue to whinge and whine to anyone who will listen about how fatigued they are. This is the height of hipocrisy :D

[oldbull youngbull]

Often finish at 2300, two days off and back at 0530.


Complies with POR and more than likely approved by the majority of your peers.

Add overtime and hours have to be hacked off here and there to keep it legal - which by the way is 80.5 because some bean counter decided this rounds down to 80.


Don't work overtime :ugh: This doesn't even have to be seen as a 'political' statement or 'industrial action'. Just don't work overtime.

[QUOTE]Most of my shifts are 8.5 hours. Close to 50% of my shifts are consecutive after a 10 hour break.


More than likely approved by the majority of your peers in a FA?


This is definitely the worst roster I have ever worked in my 10+ years here.


Hear hear!

I am tired and cranky much of the time.


Go and have a massage on your day off and don't work overtime.

And this is with the 'protection' of POR.


If we lose POR and move to FAID based rosters, my decision on taking up an offer overseas will be easy

You seem to be saying that POR is a crock of sh!t (I agree) but on the other hand you are saying if we lose it in the next EBA you'll leave? So what is it?

Do yourself a favour, go o/s don't just threaten to. DO IT!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4224814)

[Teal]

From today's crikey.com.au

Air Traffic Control crisis: you ain't seen nothing yet

An air traffic control insider writes:

The staffing number issue in ATC is going to get worse before it gets better. There are 64 controllers currently over 55; the notional retirement age is 52. There are another 80 over 52, so 130+ over the notional retirement age.

With an expectation of "trainees" in the system equalling the controllers licensed; this is a fallacy traditionally there is a 55% pass rate. So reading the attached document, there are expected to be 120 retirements minimum in the next 3 years, and 204 trainees entering, at 55% pass rate that's just 112 replacements. So recruits won't exceed retirements and that's before anyone packs their bags for greener pastures overseas.

If they truly mean taking 180+ recruits in one year (to get 96 rated), well, it's simply unsustainable so they don't mean that; we can't train people that fast.
Look at the Sydney figures it takes 6 months minimum to get rated there an a maximum of 6 trainees at a time (otherwise there aren't enough seats for the trainees); 60 people over 45. If we started training full time now in Sydney we might just exceed the retirement rate, but unlikely. There are no ab initio recruits in Sydney; there aren't likely to be in the near future.

A break down of the sick leave and overtime figures is interesting. 40 odd people have been unavailable in those figures for the full year, illnesses like cancer, stress leave etc. So 40 X 47 working weeks, x 36 hours a week, divided by 7.5 hrs (average shift length) or some 9024 days. So the overall sick leave is really 14419-9024 = 5395 days / 971 staff = 5.56 days each; hardly a massive problem.

Overtime however is conducted by rated ATCs only. 971-106 non operational supervisors = 865 Operational ATCs. OT hours 90504 / 865 = 104.62 hours or 13.95 days each; there are many ATCs who chose not to work any overtime, seeking work / life balance.

This whole thing is a house of cards. There have been 98 closures or disruptions to normal service in June 08; it's going to get worse.
Peter Gibson from CASA was quoted in the media stating that Airservices had taken 100 overseas ATC recruits; there is a big difference between 37 and 100. Has CASA dropped the ball again and played lip services to it's regulatory responsibilities, believing what the ASA spin doctors say?

I have been in for 18 years, morale has never been so low, people have never before explored OS options with such gusto; Germany, Ireland, Dubai, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi have recruited and are still targeting Australians although ASA doesn't know it yet, it's going to get worse; there are at least 20 more out the door before Christmas that I personally know about. I believe the only way out is to change CEOs (this one has lost us) and to give proper consideration at 'retaining' the existing staff; otherwise it's likely to be last one out turn off the lights. People have had enough and then had enough of being pillared by there employer with subtle hints of industrial action or McGuaran's statements at the Senate estimates like "they're taking you for a ride" regarding sick leave.

[ICAO-Delta]

CASA knows (from the plethora of research into fatigue management they have commissioned) that compressed rosters (L A D M N - where the break between shifts progressively decreases until the final morning doggo quick change) are far more taxing on the employee than expanded rosters that start with a doggo and end with a late shift. Since CASA's role is about risk management in a safety critical industry, it would appear that their lack of action could be regarded as 'unconscionable' when tested against the law of torts 'reasonable man' criteria.
I am by no means an advocate for any regulation that constricts rostering by quite supposedly 'sound' fatigue management criteria (eg max length shifts, minimum length breaks, maximum numbers of shifts in a row, etc). In many cases such criteria have been demonstrated to be capable of being abused by both employee and management alike. Everyone knows what the contributors to fatigue are. We even know that there are different types of fatigue. What is lacking is clear regulation that requires both parties (employee and management) to adhere to defensible practices that ensure no fatigued person is working or is required to work in a safety critical position. Or if required to work in such a state, there are adequate additional defences to protect the integrity (read safety) of the system - this is risk management - after all, air traffic control and flying or repairing an aircraft is ALL about risk management.
The model currently in use by Airservices (which incorporates some aspects of FAID) should be seen as a first step towards such a Utopia - not as the final answer. Someone earlier reminded us that we are actually human beings and therefore susceptible to impacts of all the social activities that humans attract. I am sure some will immediately think of partying to excess, but what I am referring to is typical ordinary life away from (and even in) the workplace - family life and all the trials and tribulations that entails, sport to combat the ever worsening human conditioning, simply driving to and from wherever, grappling with a work related issue, etc. All of these factors should find their way into a fatigue model.
Others have suggested that some work is more fatiguing than other work. Probably some truth in that too but I am not sure that if researched properly, it will be the answer expected. How fatiguing is it to be alert when there is little or no traffic?
Regrettably, a large problem with Airservices' FRMS is that those implementing it have lost sight of the real objective - ie risk management, not just putting a bum on a seat. This lack of proper understanding and proper implementation should not be the reason it is discarded, but should be the lesson for moving forward and developing a more improved FRMS where everyone (employee and management alike) embrace the concept of risk management rather than concentrating entirely on service delivery - what quality is the service if that service is NOT managing the very real risks that abound both in and out of the workplace?
Let’s go back to the report that was provided to Airservices during the development of the FRMS and re-examine the responses to the issues raised therein - making sure that the implementation focus is shifted from filling a vacant seat to addressing the delivery of a quality service with an acceptable risk. Risk in this context should NOT be limited to the risks associated with a collision but expanded to include risks within and outside the workplace, risk to future health, risk to family stability, etc. (I am sure the many creative among you will recognise other risks that should be included in the melting pot. Maybe not at the second step of the FRMS evolution, but at a later step. Perhaps someone should even begin to map those future steps so everyone can see where it is headed (wouldn't that be innovative?)
I guess I have provided sufficient fuel to the debate for now, to ensure some criticism.
Over....

[WELLCONCERNED]

Heard an interview on ABC news radio this afternoon with Peter McGuane re the reported airspace shutdown "NW of Canberra" overnight. Peter must have thought all his Xmas' had come at once.

The interviewer [lady] unwittingly played a real 'Dorothy Dix' role, with appropriately placed "oh my gosh", and "do the passengers know what's happening when they board" etc - she sounded genuinely shocked and amazed and incredulous.

I though Peter handled the interview well - left it to the interviewer to make the insinuations - and if this interview doesn't get someone's [read - MINISTER's] attention then I don't know what will.

I'll try and find the transcript. Well done, Peter!

[ferris]

More mainstream attention in the Age.

http://http://www.theage.com.au/news/news/traffic-controller-shortage-delays-flights/2008/07/07/1215282699633.html

Not exactly a hard-hitting expose, but it must be getting harder and harder to hide for the people at the top. Sooner or later, someone might ask them the right questions.

[Quokka]

Ducky... definitely... you wouldn't get the locals to turn up for work on an Australian roster... and if it was in the contract, not a single ex-pat controller would sign.

Oh, and we all know that any ACC in this part of the world would become a Ghost Town within days of Airservices Australia gaining a contract to provide a service (sic). Don't waste your time in this region Airservices... the international world of ATC is a lot smaller than you realize... and your reputation precedes you.

Ps. How are the greener pastures? I hear that they were expecting a 6ft blonde Latvian babe instead... :E

[divingduck]

To mis-quote Gordon Gekko....Green is good!

As for their expectations ...I'm about 6 foot...the rest of the stuff may be a bit hard to hide :E (espeically the blonde bit) although I have been called a big girl several times:eek:

[divingduck]

We over here in greener pastures have heard that up to 15 controllers in Sydney have resigned to go to the new Jebel Ali airport:ooh:

Any thruth to that rumour?

[SM4 Pirate]

Big difference between "going to" and "have" there DD; but me thinks trouble a brewing, felt it coming all day.

[undervaluedATC]

and over in the thread on TIBA, it seems Crikey.com has got wind of CASA's 1st inspection of TIBA procedures.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/atc-issues/334215-no-atc-tiba-your-experiences.html#post4242328

[max1]

Duck ,
Its just starting, after ASAs latest effort, 2 this week I know of are off to Jebel Ali. Others have offers and starting dates but have yet to let ASA know, I think the mutual lack of respect will mean that resignations will be very short notice. If ASA don't extract the digit and start with some meaningful negotiations very,very soon the gates will open. Also,1 just left for NZ (family reasons) and another resignation takes effect in a week (NZ, paycut but outdoorsy type)

All the talk around the centres is where have/are you applying. I am looking to Europe personally, and have been hearing rumours that Eurocontrol may be recruiting towards the end of the year. Ireland (maybe they've finished?) and Germany (ATC and training) are other options.

[SM4 Pirate]

I believe the Irish permanent jobs are being finalised; the contract positions need to be filled by about Jan 09. Germany sounds like a shambles, no straight answers there I'm afraid, and a lousy offer to boot. Jebel Ali will be taking many Australians.

[JackoSchitt]

There are not only ATC shortages from what I hear. Other operational areas are well and truly in survival mode.

If you can believe it, an Ausfic staffer walked in today an resigned on the spot. That surely will put more pressure on the VHF Flightwatch backup ghosting bullsh!t.

I don't know how many staff Ausfic is down but I did see a NOTAM on the weekend saying that international HF communications were not available for a period. If they are doing that, then they **really** must be down in numbers.

WHO THE FIRE TRUCK IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS???

The staff cannot be to blame as they don't dictate recruitment and redundancies but yet they have to pick up the pieces.

If the staff screw up, there is ESIR and god knows what else....but stuff up the staffing in such a fashion that it will take AT LEAST 3 years to merely put a bandaid on and not a bloody "manager" is held accountable.

Almost no matter how many staff is recruited, it certainly will NOT fix the matter because of the pending retirements across the system will more that suck up the new bodies.

This situation is nothing but the result of reprehensible conduct by supposedly a "professional" organisation.....and I use the term "organisation" loosely......VERY F%$#in LOOSELY!!!

oh, and of course all this took place without TFN knowing anything about it so it could not POSSIBLY be his fault.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Track Coastal]

2 this week I know of are off to Jebel Ali. Others have offers and starting dates but have yet to let ASA know, I think the mutual lack of respect will mean that resignations will be very short notice. If ASA don't extract the digit and start with some meaningful negotiations very,very soon the gates will open. Also,1 just left for NZ (family reasons) and another resignation takes effect in a week (NZ, paycut but outdoorsy type)
Mate multiply that by lots...those that are waiting until 21st Dec....

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:czR4Ynd_LadQjM:http://www.bizbuzzmedia.com/Admin/ImageGallery/BizBuzzMedia/Andrea%2520Crisp/A380Emirates.jpg

[Pass-A-Frozo]

To mis-quote Gordon Gekko....Green is good!

Correct quote is:

"Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works"
:ok:

[The Euronator]

Max 1,

have been hearing rumours that Eurocontrol may be recruiting towards the end of the year

Love to know where you have heard that gem. It certainly isn't as an ATC. An ATC Instructor in Luxembourg is definitely an option (they are screaming out for people ) but not in Maastricht. We still have around 100 on the waiting list from the first recruitment drive.

[Green on, Go!]

Is it true that the AsA Academy has lost its status as a Registered Training Organisation (RTO) by failing its last Australian Quality Training Framework (AQTF) audit?:eek:

Is the academy actually permitted to graduate people at the moment?

How's the boost in training throughput going to be affected?

[ollie_a]

Airservices is definitely still an RTO, and listed in the RTO database: see http://www.ntis.gov.au/Default.aspx?/rto/5168

[Green on, Go!]

Airservices is definitely still an RTO, and listed in the RTO database:

Yep, checked there before posting and am in a position to know that the NTIS site is not 'up to the minute' accurate.

I thought my 'source' was pretty strong, however, it appears that the rumour has been 'busted'...

[Harvey Birdman]

How's the service in and out of Sydney these days?

Staff numbers slashed by 20% while traffic levels increased by 25%. :eek::eek::eek:

No wonder we're getting all these airspace closures. Seems like something's gotta give!

http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/images/stories/sy_atc_prod.jpg

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Hey Harvey,

I have to admit I have known a few .6 controllers in my time but who was the poor shmuck who was the .1 controller in Sydney in June 2005! ;)

Anyone wanting to get some sand between their toes PM me we are about 20 short here currently and it might be an idea to beat the rush come January 1, 2009. Good luck all.

[Showa Cho]

Heard some information about staffing levels in one ATC Group the other day. Their roster is being published in 3 weeks blocks at a time (so easy to organise one's life with 3 weeks notice....).

Anyway, in the next 3 week block there are over 30 blank shifts........on a 17-person group! That means, without sick leave or special/family leave popping up, each controller will have to work an average of 2 overtime shifts each JUST TO KEEP THE PLACE RUNNING. I fail to see how sick leave is the root cause if there are so many shifts blank when the roster is first written.

Thanks,

Showa-Cho.

[TrafficTraffic]

Skybound1

No

and

No

and

No

.....just keep posting no for yourself in every other thread in which you have asked the same question.

AsA could be looking for controllers - but not you.

TT

[A320 Flyer]

Holey thread resurrection Batman

[BlackPanther]

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/report/ao-2022-065-1

Nothing to see here. Everyone is well rested and rosters are great. Crew and Pax lives' definitely aren't at risk purely because of Airservices profit making objectives.

[sunnySA]

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/report/ao-2022-065-1

Nothing to see here. Everyone is well rested and rosters are great. Crew and Pax lives' definitely aren't at risk purely because of Airservices profit making objectives.

OneSky will fix it.

[Stationair8]

Obviously it is a lifestyle issue with the controller!

[Icarus2001]

TIBA and TRAs in Australia at this time is a disgrace. The people running the monopoly air service provider should hang their heads in shame.

[missy]

TIBA and TRAs in Australia at this time is a disgrace.
The Australian Civil ATC system is based on controllers (and other support staff) working inordinate amounts of Overtime. AsA are understaffed for normal operations and chronologically understaffed at other times. FOI request for Overtime hours would be revealing.

The people running the monopoly air service provider should hang their heads in shame.
Nope, they have no shame.

[KRviator]

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/report/ao-2022-065-1

This has to be a joke?

IIRC this was a nightly occurrence after the geniuses decided to go to one person night shifts many years ago. It was only the snoring that kept the people actually working the traffic awake!Wow. Just wow. But was he actually handling traffic at the time, or had he handed off anything in his assigned sectors to adjacent controllers before shift change and with nothing under his jurisdiction, had a catnap? But still... I have the alerter/vigilance system on the train to make sure I stay awake. Long haul crew now have the EICAS "CREW RESPONSE" trigger to keep them awake - but what does the bloke on the other end of the radio have?

No Minesweeper or Solitaire on TAAATS? But it does have a screensaver, thank goodness!

[Lead Balloon]

C'mon. There's no risk to the safety of air navigation, so who cares?

[sunnySA]

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/report/ao-2022-065-1[/QUOTE}

[QUOTE=BlackPanther;11353117]Nothing to see here. There was plenty to in Melbourne Centre about 10 years, reported to ATC and Safety Management and nothing was done/

Everyone is well rested and rosters are great. Sarcasm (the use of irony to mock or convey contempt).To answer, no and deteorating, poor roster designs, squeezing more shifts out of ATCs to cover shortfalls.

Crew and Pax lives' definitely aren't at risk purely because of Airservices profit making objectives. Sarcasm (the use of irony to mock or convey contempt).
BTW, AsA Act needs to change.

It will be interesting to know whether this individual had work a morning shift followed by the night shift, and what the sequence of shifts was worked prior and whether there was an elevated fatigue potential for this particular shift and what the individual mitigators for this particular shift were and how were they applied for this particular shift (and by whom). Maybe FOI how many controllers on that shift had an elevated fatigue potential.

[tossbag]

The podcast Shandee's Story started out a (riveting) cold case investigation, it evolved into an investigation into Queensland Forensic and Scientific Services lab. I'm tipping there'll be criminal charges laid on the highest levels of management. The management got away with lying to the coppers and government ministers basically because they didn't have a clue how to decipher the bull**** that was being fed down to them. Same goes at Airservices Australia, it's a matter of time. If every government minister in this country isn't taking lessons from this saga, they're a fool.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

'Shortly after, a supervisor checked the screens"....obviously didn't want to wake him.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The Australian Civil ATC system is based on controllers (and other support staff) working inordinate amounts of Overtime. AsA are understaffed for normal operations and chronologically understaffed at other times. FOI request for Overtime hours would be revealing.


Is overtime something that has to be agreed to by the staff member or is it simply rostered?

[ReefToppy]

Is overtime something that has to be agreed to by the staff member or is it simply rostered?
It's agreed to

[gordonfvckingramsay]

It's agreed to

Not trying to start an argument here but the ATC guys do have a choice then. Overtime is a choice and many pilots I know refuse it in the interests of not becoming chronically fatigued.

[ReefToppy]

Not trying to start an argument here but the ATC guys do have a choice then. Overtime is a choice and many pilots I know refuse it in the interests of not becoming chronically fatigued.
They do. The large amount of contingency and TIBA NOTAMs over the last 12 months is a result of controllers saying no.

[missy]

They do. The large amount of contingency and TIBA NOTAMs over the last 12 months is a result of controllers saying no.

gordonfvckingramsay, if all the controllers said no, then firstly, it would be perceived as Industrial action, and secondly there would be so many contingency and TIBA NOTAMs that it would noticed by the travelling public.

[Lead Balloon]

So some controllers are saying yes when they really want to say no?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

gordonfvckingramsay, if all the controllers said no, then firstly, it would be perceived as Industrial action, and secondly there would be so many contingency and TIBA NOTAMs that it would noticed by the travelling public.

It would be very hard if not illegal to claim the non-acceptance of overtime due to chronic overtime and chronically fatiguing rosters is industrial.

[TimmyTee]

Wait, overtime is a choice? Perhaps somebody needs to tell a few local airlines that

[le Pingouin]

It's certainly been claimed as such in the past - changes in the historical pattern of accepting overtime shifts, entirely ignoring there are limits to what people are willing or able to bear.

[sunnySA]

It would be very hard if not illegal to claim the non-acceptance of overtime due to chronic overtime and chronically fatiguing rosters is industrial.
AsA management would probably argue that this thread is a form of Industrial Action. IDK.

From the Enterprise Agreement.
Additional Hours
(a) An employee has an obligation to work a reasonable amount of additional hours where it is necessary to meet operational requirements. This obligation is subject to the provisions in the remainder of this clause.
(b) If, having regard to the matters set out in (i) to (v) below, it would be unreasonable for an employee to work the additional hours, the employee does not have an obligation to work those hours:
(i) any risk to the employee’s health and safety;
(ii) the employee’s personal circumstances, including family responsibilities;
(iii) the needs of the workplace;
(iv) the notice given by Airservices of the requirement to work the additional hours and any notice the employee has given about their availability or unavailability to perform additional hours work in a particular period;
(v) any other relevant matter.
(c) If an employee is asked to work additional hours and after considering the matters mentioned in clause (b)(i)-(v) (as above), the employee concludes that it would be unreasonable for them to work those additional hours, they may decline to work those hours and they will not be required to work those particular hours. In that event, Airservices is entitled to ask the employee to provide the reason or reasons for their conclusion and if Airservices wish to dispute whether the refusal is justified under this clause, it can do so, in which case the dispute will be dealt with in accordance with Disputes Avoidance and Settlement Process clause.

[le Pingouin]

And the one that trumps everything: "I'm not fit for duty"

[MalcolmReynolds]

Missy, how would the travelling public know what TIBA is? They can't tell a Cessna from a Boeing/Airbus! As long as they get to their destination they don't care!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

gordonfvckingramsay, if all the controllers said no, then firstly, it would be perceived as Industrial action, and secondly there would be so many contingency and TIBA NOTAMs that it would noticed by the travelling public.

That’s hardly a problem the travelling public or pilots should be concerned about or covering for. If ASA can’t retain staff the system needs to fail and the conditions need to change.

[missy]

Missy, how would the travelling public know what TIBA is? They can't tell a Cessna from a Boeing/Airbus! As long as they get to their destination they don't care!
Yes you are correct, I originally typed that the airlines need to stop flying through TIBA but changed my wording. Affordable safety I guess, or their risk/reward profile allows their aircraft to fly through TIBA airspace.

[10JQKA]

Australian Aviation has picked up on the story too but it also has a paywall

Also a follow up in the Oz just now


https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/unacceptable-sydney-air-control-unit-left-without-a-manager-70-times-as-melbournebased-controllers-left-in-tears/news-story/88b60a4ef4e544be418569c31a92b85b?amp

[12-47]

Can anyone with access do a cut/paste?

[10JQKA]

The professional body representing Qantas pilots has said it isn’t
safe to have large swathes of regional Australia not serviced by air
traffic controllers.

It comes after The Australian revealed that there were 340 instances
of ‘uncontrolled airspace’recorded since June last year in areas
usually monitored by staff in towers.

Airservices, which oversees air traffic control, put the absences down
to sickness caused by flu and COVID and insisted the practice didn’t
put lives at risk.

However, AIPA president and Qantas pilot Tony Lucas called the
practice unsafe and said flying in unsupervised areas means pilots
have to ‘self-separate’, which increases their workload.

“It increases our operational complexity and workload because we are
now trying to separate ourselves from other aircraft, potentially
impacting safety,” he said.

“These sorts of events should not be happening frequently and
certainly not due to resourcing issues.

“Leaving airspace uncontrolled should only happen in near-emergency
situations, such as a fire in an air traffic control centre, for a
very short period of time.

“We need to build more resilience into the system to make sure these
events are not happening on a regular basis.”

Lucas’ views appear to directly contradict those of Airservices, which
insisted there are “safe and globally recognised procedures” in place
to enable pilots to cope with uncontrolled airspace.

It added the situation was due to “staff availability issues”.

“We employ more than 900 air traffic controllers and require 800 air
traffic controllers at any one time to fully staff the air traffic
management system across the country,” Airservices said

“There are a further 65 air traffic controllers in training. Like all
other sectors of the economy, we have experienced staff availability
issues this year due to the worst flu season in years and Covid-19
infections.

“Over the past 12 months, our air traffic control workforce has taken
19,700 days of unplanned leave, principally due to illness. This is 44
per cent higher than our pre-pandemic average.

“But despite this, our service level has been varied by less than 0.1
per cent of the total time this year.

“The airspace continues to be monitored at our major air traffic
management centres, access to the airspace is regulated to ensure
aircraft separation, and pilots follow internationally recognised
procedures to ensure separation.”

In Australia, there are two major types of airspace: controlled and
uncontrolled. Controlled is actively monitored and managed by air
traffic controllers and requires clearance to enter.

Uncontrolled airspace has no supervision, so no clearance is required.
This is traditionally where the majority of helicopters and light
aircraft operate in.

The instances reported by The Australian crucially refer to usually
controlled airspace that temporarily has no controllers working.

The revelation comes months after Australian Aviation obtained a
recording that revealed how air traffic control missed one of the most
serious aviation safety incidents in a generation involving a packed
A330.

It also follows two landmark reports that made claims of a toxic
culture at Airservices.

The first, by a Federal Court QC, argued its culture was so poor it
could “endanger the lives of air travellers”, while a second revealed
an “unacceptable” atmosphere of bullying, sexual harassment and
racism.

Airservices said the earlier investigation’s claims were “false and
alarmist” but implemented the recommendations of the second, which it
commissioned.

[sunnySA]

I understand that the lack of staffing isn't only affecting ATC but also radar techs and radio techs. Move along, nothing to see, "These Are Not the Droids You Are Looking For".

[KRviator]

“Over the past 12 months, our air traffic control workforce has taken 19,700 days of unplanned leave, principally due to illness. This is 44 per cent higher than our pre-pandemic average.

“But despite this, our service level has been varied by less than 0.1 per cent of the total time this year.The blokes and blokettes who do rock up must be killing the pig with their OT! But let's look at their numbers:We employ more than 900 air traffic controllers and require 800 air traffic controllers at any one time to fully staff the air traffic management system across the country19,700 days of unplanned leave, aka Personal ("Sick") Leave. If you are generous to ASA and say they have 950 'certified and workstation-capable' (ie not on light-duties, or in any supervisory or managerial position, but actually sit at a console and talk on the radio daily) then each and every one of those 950 controllers took 20 days sick leave last year. Not quite, but close to two sick days a month.

Not knowing what their roster looks like, but if they worked a typical 8 hour day, that's still about 4 weeks personal leave a year when you factor in typical RDO's. That's a lot. No matter what ASA would have us believe - and not for an instant do I look to blame the controller's. Personal leave is there to be used, and you are not going to win any favours from the bosses for turning up crook, nor are you doing yourself any favours if you get to the end of your career with 5,000 hours of sick leave 'banked' but poor mental health and a hundred missed birthdays and kids footy grand finals...

But we'll continue on our merry way, safe in the knowledge that ASA has things in hand, while they declare large swathes of airspace as TRA or TBIA. Yep, they're right. Nowt to see here.:ugh:

[tossbag]

There's no where near 950 operational controllers so you can ramp those numbers up a bit. You'd have to assume that a fair whack of that sick leave is from covid. This mess is 100% caused by wonder boy in Can'tberra. This mess also highlights the complete ineptitude of the politicians responsible, they are being lied to and are too stupid to bring in the expertise to sift through the lies.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

One aspect of this that I find quite amusing is that some/most carriers delay or cancel sectors when TIBA is active. The airlines suffer due to the exact same corporate behemoth greed and short staffing that they, themselves love so much.

[amberale]

Given that the only "planned " leave is an 18 month lead rec leave system, these numbers would include, maternity, paternity, long service and carers leave.

[10JQKA]

SYD TCU REPCON

https://www.atsb.gov.au/repcon/2023/ra2022-00045

[alphacentauri]

Wow....read the regulators response

​​​​​​CASA issued a Safety Observation due to concerns over ASA having insufficient staff at Sydney TCU. The observation was based on evidence that the Airservices calculated number of staff required was insufficient to continue to provide the service. At the time of surveillance, Sydney TCU had not experienced an interruption to service.

So a breach of the safety regulations is ok because it wasnt seen to be having an impact. Fast forward a few months later.......... (note: inadequate staffing levels is a breach of CASR 172.110) Why wasn't this issued as a safety finding?

Should the matters not be resolved CASA may elevate the issues to enforcement action as outlined within the CASA Enforcement Manual.

When was the last time, if ever, that CASA took meaningful enforcement action aginst AsA?

[alphacentauri]

They doing a second round??

[tossbag]

They doing a second round??

​​​​​​​I'm guessing he's saying that he's back on contract. It's an age old ASA tradition.

[12-47]

We employ more than 900 air traffic controllers and require 800 air traffic controllers at any one time to fully staff the air traffic management system across the country
Hang on, why are they training more? Shouldn't the bean counters be cutting another 100?

[Gne]

Allowing for leave etc and a 8.5 hr productive shift it needs about 5.2 controllers to man a position H24 (and I'm sure we've all worked with a 0.2 mate!). That means 900 staff members could man 173 positions; however, some of these are not H24. Even so the numbers do not add up.

Gne

[PoppaJo]

Here you go. Safety was never compromised…blah blah blah
Staffing shortages at Sydney’s air traffic control tower during wild storms meant flight crews were not given the most up-to-date weather information or told about an unauthorised drone.

A Qantas flight from Santiago was among those caught up in the mayhem, highlighted in an internal Airservices Australia report about “insufficient staff supervision” on February 18.

With only three controllers to do the work of five, there was “controller overload, failure to report reportable matters, failure to provide flight information, and failure to issue a hazard alert” the Sydney traffic manager’s report said.

“At approximately 7am, the Bureau of Meteorology advised there was a severe gust front approaching from the southwest. Additionally there were SIGMETs (significant weather warnings) issued,” said the report.
“These meteorology products were not disseminated and broadcast as per the flight information service provisions. This information was vital to pilots, including (Qantas flight) QF28 which diverted to Newcastle while operating on minimum fuel.”

An airline source confirmed the pilots on QF28 were not told of the more severe weather as the Boeing 787-9 approached Sydney after flying from Santiago, Chile.
READ MORE: Three-way tussle for Qantas CEO emerges (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-ceo-battle-looms-as-alan-joyce-hires-former-air-nz-exec-cam-wallace-to-run-international-ops/news-story/2292f2c369c21d16ca21346e8f30e518) | Qantas ‘best in world’ claim put to the test (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/are-qantas-new-first-and-business-class-seats-really-the-best-in-the-world-as-alan-joyce-claims/news-story/57771076369b9876bb474c5b49052ab0) | Qantas offers little hope of cheaper airfares (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/airfares-to-stay-significantly-higher-than-2019-says-qantas-at-record-profit-announcement/news-story/ff78bf8c586ef35b942803a6e3c15da9) |Qantas rebounds with huge profit, aided by high airfares (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-posts-record-half-year-profit-warns-airfares-will-remain-high/news-story/fce3dab99d449135a8e785c3e1cb76aa) | Qantas sets a date for Wi-Fi on international flights (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-sets-a-date-for-free-highspeed-wifi-on-international-flights/news-story/770b510b7b79397862144b8fcbf6118f) | ‘Travel on a Tuesday’: Joyce says cheaper flights abound (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-to-plough-100m-into-international-lounge-network-including-second-london-lounge/news-story/4ae150445723549a1e9c2533f5b36b1e)As a result the flight burnt up valuable fuel before it became apparent they would not be able to land in Sydney and would have to divert.

With Canberra Airport also impacted by severe storms, the decision was made to fly to Newcastle despite the airport having no customs or immigration.

Airservices’ air traffic management director was asked to assist with the diversion but did not respond in a timely fashion, leaving the Sydney controllers to gather landing details.

“The pilot advised they would declare MAYDAY fuel if there was any delay for arrival at Newcastle,” said the report.

New & improved business newsletter.Get the edge with AM and PM briefings, plus breaking news alerts in your inbox.
Sign upUltimately the flight landed on a “severely shortened runway” and passengers were unable to disembark because there was no processing staff or facilities.

As the chaos was unfolding, Sydney air traffic controllers became aware of an unauthorised drone in the airport vicinity but no hazard alert was issued and the in-flight emergency response checklist was not followed.

“During these events, controllers were overloaded due to staff shortages,” said the report.

“In a normal operating environment this event would be managed by opening five air traffic control consoles. Staffing only allowed for three consoles to be opened with a very short opportunity to open a fourth.”

The incident was the latest in a string of issues affecting Airservices due to staff shortages, blamed on a higher than average amount of “unplanned leave” or sickies.

The airline source said it was frustrating the shortages were having a flow on effect, resulting in disruption to flights.

“These staff shortages have been going on for a year now,” said the source.

“Airservices Australia needs to sort this out quickly or the travelling public are going to continue having their flights delayed or cancelled.”

An Airservices spokeswoman said they were well prepared for the February 18 weather event, and provided “safe and efficient services” for the storms’ duration.

She denied the key criticisms in the Sydney traffic manager’s report, insisting there was sufficient staff supervision and aircraft were informed of the drone.

“Airservices employs more than 900 air traffic controllers, 97 per cent of which are in operational roles,” said the spokeswoman.

“Airservices requires about 800 ATCs to fully staff the ATC network.”

In a recent email, an Airservices manager implored controllers to return the goodwill showed to them during Covid and suggested any shortages were due to “an alarming level of unplanned leave”.

The air traffic controllers’ union, Civil Air, responded by urging members not to go to work if they felt fatigued or stressed, and warned that the longer staffing levels remained critical, the more unplanned leave would be taken.

[Advance]

Why can Airservices decide what safety services it will provide?

That is like allowing a food manufacturer to decide if botulism is OK in its food or for each car driver to decide what road rules to obey or ignore.
Seriously, Airservices is just a provider of Air Traffic Services; it has NO EXPERTISE in deciding what is required.
Decisions on the services required should be made by experienced aircraft pilots backed up by risk management expertise informed by those pilots.
There is none of that at Airservices.

But we have an Aviation Safety regulator called CASA which has those skills in house.

Next time you are a passenger in an aircraft flying in cloud consider how you feel about other aircraft being in the same cloud without any Air Traffic Control separation service
– just pilots being told about other aircraft and expected to look out the window, see and avoid. Hard to do that in cloud.

In developed places like North America and Europe, every aircraft flying in cloud is provided with an ATC separation service.
That is not always so in Australia precisely because people without the required skills are left to decide what services they feel like providing.
Airservices Act: “the extent to which AA provides services and facilities is subject to AA's discretion."

Think I’m kidding you?
On 19th February 2020 four people died when two aircraft collided near Mangalore Victoria without an ATC separation service when flying in conditions that precluded self separation.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2020/aair/ao-2020-012

It could happen any day at Ballina, Gladstone, Orange, Bathurst, Armidale, or any of a host of other regional cities - and it could involve airline aircraft!

[VHOED191006]

Dear god... :rolleyes:

[le Pingouin]

You run people into the ground and wonder why they're unfit for duty? Goodwill only goes so far and wasn't a recognised fatigue or stress management technique last time I looked.

The RIS was a good idea at the time (Your Honour) when it was thought the COVID downturn would last considerably longer than it turned out to be. Given most of us who went probably would have done so within a few years anyway it wasn't such a silly idea when it was proposed. Even when the first of us went towards the end of 2021 it wasn't obvious how rapidly the upturn would kick in. Certainly in hindsight it wasn't a great move.

[missy]

With only three controllers to do the work of five, there was “controller overload, failure to report reportable matters, failure to provide flight information, and failure to issue a hazard alert”

The most likely scenario with ​​​​​​three controllers means that one controller is performing ADC, one controller is performing SMC, and the other controller is performing Clearance Delivery, Coordinator and Supervisor or using AsA jargon, Operational Command Authority.

Another likely scenario is that one controller was operating three different ATC positions at once, 3 frequencies (124.7, 133.8 and 127.6), 3 different consoles, and 3 different responsibilities - ADC, Clearance Delivery and Coordinator.

The weather on that evening was brutal and in those circumstances of rapidly changing weather, multiple sources of weather including via facsimile (yes, a fax), unexpected and unauthorised drone activity it then falls to the Coordinator to update things quickly and efficiently. Often it changes between creating and broadcasting on ATIS. Difficult to do if you are also responding to aircraft calls on other frequencies and potentially at other consoles. Überlingen anyone?

It would interesting to see the staff allocation sheet from that evening to see which positions a single controller was operating concurrently. Not as a criticism of the individual controller but rather how dangerous it really is. Human factors anyone?

CASA / ATSB, where are you? Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, where are you? Minister for Communications - where are you? Minister for Creative Writing (Arts), where are you?

[VHOED191006]

Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, where are you? Minister for Communications - where are you? Minister for Creative Writing (Arts), where are you?
They're all too busy trying to figure out whether we should be able to access our super when we are 70 or 71 years old.

[morno]

They're all too busy trying to figure out whether we should be able to access our super when we are 70 or 71 years old.

And whether we should have an indigenous person who basically controls the constitution and parliament :rolleyes:

Safety though? That takes care of itself doesn’t it?

[missy]

The most likely scenario with ​​​​​​three controllers means that one controller is performing ADC, one controller is performing SMC, and the other controller is performing Clearance Delivery, Coordinator and Supervisor or using AsA jargon, Operational Command Authority.

Another likely scenario is that one controller was operating three different ATC positions at once, 3 frequencies (124.7, 133.8 and 127.6), 3 different consoles, and 3 different responsibilities - ADC, Clearance Delivery and Coordinator.

The weather on that evening was brutal and in those circumstances of rapidly changing weather, multiple sources of weather including via facsimile (yes, a fax), unexpected and unauthorised drone activity it then falls to the Coordinator to update things quickly and efficiently. Often it changes between creating and broadcasting on ATIS. Difficult to do if you are also responding to aircraft calls on other frequencies and potentially at other consoles. Überlingen anyone?

It would interesting to see the staff allocation sheet from that evening to see which positions a single controller was operating concurrently. Not as a criticism of the individual controller but rather how dangerous it really is. Human factors anyone?

CASA / ATSB, where are you? Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, where are you? Minister for Communications - where are you? Minister for Creative Writing (Arts), where are you?

I stand corrected.

[tossbag]

In a recent email, an Airservices manager implored controllers to return the goodwill showed to them during Covid and suggested any shortages were due to an alarming level of unplanned leave

So join in the chorus, and sing it one and all, join in the chorus, North Melbournes on the ball.

​​​​​​​Ask the manager who sent that email about North Melbourne.

[framer]

There are notams out today informing of large swathes of airspace at ‘reduced capacity due to operational restrictions’ around Queensland.
for the controllers or ex controllers here, what does that actually look like on the ground. Are there individual controllers trying to manage more airspace than usual? Are we one sick call away from having airspace TIBA ? I flew through the area and all seemed normal from a pilots perspective .

[longtermatc-career]

Good work Tossbag,
Strangely I had taken to YouTube just last week in an attempt to secure footage of the Coaches box in the early 90's.
Unfortunately it was after a couple of Shandies and my interest waned quickly.....I would put money on the fact the truth is out there!

[tossbag]

I would put money on the fact the truth is out there!

100%, someone with more time than me could find it, but there's also other truths out there on this character. Broderick truths for example.

[framer]

Thanks, info is appreciated, I wasn’t using the sick call example with any judgement attached. The pilot side is the same, we work harder, we get sick more, no brainer in a shift work environment.

[longtermatc-career]

Broderick......
Honestly please....talk about triggering.
Im guessing Tossbag, like me you've been around long enough to know the Mafioso from the early years and the absolute hypocrisy....the absolute hypocrisy that is the Broderick review.
These two at the top were amongst the very worst offenders.
I'll stop short of going into detail but ASA was cooked the day MS was knifed in the back.....all we've had since then essentially is the sociopath in charge of the asylum.
BN APP is spot on, there are no bods to allocate the shifts...its a triumph in organisational management!
Greetings everyone from the YMML Asylum.

[tossbag]

But you know what I mean when I talk about Broderick, maybe not. I'm going down the rabbit hole that caused it in the first place, our North Melbourne friend being in it up to his eyeballs and his best mate's behaviour particularly in the stairwells of his palace.

And the way the **** behaved in the Senate hearings when MS appeared, that was it for me, game over.

[longtermatc-career]

I checked out when it became apparent what TFN had in mind for the organisation.

[VHOED191006]

ZNJ's diversion to Newcastle that night is now being investigated by the ATSB. Will be interesting to see what will be said in relation to Airservices and their handling.

[Maggie Island]

Any truth to the rumour that AS tower has only been staffed by one person in recent weeks.

[keepemseperated]

Regarding the high levels of overtime worked (upwards of 500 hours or 60 shifts/year in one of the remaining stand alone TCU's), Many had hoped that Covid would be the reset that most ATC's would need to realise that time away from work, spent with family and friends was far more important than propping up a failing (failed?) system. Unfortunately that old habits are hard to break and perhaps big capital city mortgages drive so much of the decision making, but it appears that little has changed.

In term of CASA/ATSB investigations, sadly both organisations seem to have a number of ex ASA managers within their realms. I will let you decide what effect that may have.

[ozbiggles]

Be interesting if they have a look at the Singapore A350 I think it was that landed on 25 as the storm front crossed the field as part of it too….18 months and two years.

[Plazbot]

Oh wow. I thought I was reading a thread from 2010. This whole full time equivalent thing still hasn't worked out. If your group needs 13.2 and the other needs 11,1, that equals 24.3 in AsA speak as opposed to the reality of 26. Any number greater than zero needs a body and fractions can't be added.

Good luck brothers and sisters.

[framer]

Any number greater than zero needs a body and fractions can't be added.
True true, although some controllers provide just a fraction of a service. If we can identify them and assign them to the appropriate unit the ASA system might work?

[sunnySA]

True true, although some controllers provide just a fraction of a service. If we can identify them and assign them to the appropriate unit the ASA system might work?

Or AsA could just ensure that each group has at least a couple of extraordinary ATCs who are able to continue to provide the service by working an additional 750 hours each year.

The average experienced ATC is rostered to work about 1660 hours per year, taking into account Rec. Leave and familiarisation periods after being on leave.

So, such extraordinary ATCs are worth 1.45 of their peers (plus another $130,000 (less tax) on top of their normal salary).

[missy]

Or AsA could just ensure that each group has at least a couple of extraordinary ATCs who are able to continue to provide the service by working an additional 750 hours each year.

The average experienced ATC is rostered to work about 1660 hours per year, taking into account Rec. Leave and familiarisation periods after being on leave.

So, such extraordinary ATCs are worth 1.45 of their peers (plus another $130,000 (less tax) on top of their normal salary).
Where do we find such ATCs?

[longtermatc-career]

I'm sure Workforce Deployment have no idea.....crap, sorry.
That was suppose to read.
I'm sure Workforce Deployment are totally clueless.....damn it happened again.
Don't count on the Training College anytime soon either.

[Plazbot]

Where do we find such ATCs?
I can think of a few places around the world but most of them only work ~1400 hours per year. Leave on demand and little to no OT.

[longtermatc-career]

Is the truth about Airservices going to finally set us free?

Here's hoping!

[framer]

Airservices employs more than 900 ATCs, 97 per cent of which are in operational roles. Airservices only requires about 800 ATCs to fully staff the ATC network,” said a spokesperson for Airservices in a statement.
Im pretty sure the execs at ASA don’t understand the game they are playing here. I hope, for everyone’s sake, that they get away with it.

[tossbag]

They understand full well, they have been playing this game for decades. The prize goes to the current crop though;

"We have a need for 800 operational controllers, we have 900 controllers, 98% of them are in operational roles." mmmm, ok, doesn't make sense but read on. We have given over 100 redundancies, but somehow the 800/900 spilt that has been quoted for the last 10 years endures, magic pudding stuff.

"However, we are recruiting 140 controllers this year and the next few years. We acknowledge some operational issues", those being multiple airspace closures, ongoing 'operational' issues, re, continuing airspace closures. So, you have an operational need for 800, you have 900, 98% efficiency but you're hiring 140 per year for the next few years, mmmm, doesn't make sense but maybe they're gunning for a 800/1350 split?

So the ongoing, decades long 800/900 split paradigm does not add up when you sift through the horse****. But continue it does and continue it will, because basically nobody gives a ****.

[missy]

A complete reset is required. Scarily, nobody knows what that looks like, or the eventual catalyst for it.
Catalyst ? When the CEO is replaced or AsA returns to the Department..

[Lead Balloon]

When it dawns on a sufficient number of Australians that Airservices is now being run mainly for the enrichment of its executives rather than the safety and efficiency of air navigation, and neither CASA nor ATSB is going to do anything about it. Hopefully the catalyst for that dawning won’t be a mid-air involving an RPT jet in TRA, TIBA or G airspace.

[missy]

When it dawns on a sufficient number of Australians that Airservices is now being run mainly for the enrichment of its executives rather than the safety and efficiency of air navigation, and neither CASA nor ATSB is going to do anything about it. Hopefully the catalyst for that dawning won’t be a mid-air involving an RPT jet in TRA, TIBA or G airspace.
One of my former colleagues said "the worst thing that can happen would be the best thing that can happen". Sobering.

LB, like you I also hope that the catalyst isn't a mid-air involving an RPT jet in TRA, TIBA or G airspace (or any other airspace classification).