Merged:A couple of prangs in Sth Island.

[First_Principal]

I would have thought someone with a bit more knowledge may have posted on these but FYI it seems there were a couple of prangs in NZ yesterday.

Fortunately everyone involved is ok; a 172 ran off the end of a runway at Omaka and a microlight flipped upside-down at Rangiora. It's been fairly breezy here over the past few days but I'm not sure if that was a factor. The article on the 172 suggests the pilot and/or instructor were trying to land with a significant tail-wind. Given Omaka has some shortish vectors it's unsurprising they ran out of room, sounds like they tried to go-around but were a bit late and clipped the fence. No word about what happened at Rangiora but I gather it may have been one of the microlight club Rans given the colouring.

These links refer:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4250172a11.html
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4250357a11.html

[devolved]

Glad to hear all are ok,

huge lessons to be learned tho. Sometimes we underestimate the effects of wind :(

[VH-VIN]

runway 12 is very long, even with 30 knots tail wind if you approached in your 172 at the correct speed you would be luckly to use haff the runway!!!
Whay do pilots come so bloody fast these days?

[ju7ez]

If you read the article about the Omaka "Prang" it says they came in down wind, well that'll make your landing much much longer, especially in that wind!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlboroughexpress/4251433a6008.html

[CDT Fu]

Just heard on the news that there was another crash. This time a 152 near Taupo.:ugh:

[troppo]

You tell em willy. Can't understand it myself

[Launchpad McQuack]

Sad news indeed...

A female flight instructor died and a male student pilot suffered moderate injuries after a small plane crash in the Eastern Bay of Plenty tonight.

The Cessna 152 crashed this evening around 5pm near Ruatahuna, north west of Lake Waikaremoana in the Urewera National Park.
Northern fire communications shift manager Tony McDonald said an 18-year-old aviation student had walked away from the crash to get help.
The pair were the only ones on the plane. Police said the pilot's name would not be released until next of kin were advised.
Rotorua based BayTrust and Taupo based Lion Foundation rescue helicopters attended the crash.
BayTrust rescue helicopter base manager Barry Vincent said the aircraft was in dense vegetation in a remote area.
"We took the male patient back to Rotorua Hospital," he said St John regional operations manager Brent Neilsen said an ambulance was dispatched with the helicopters.
"St John paramedics were winched down to the site from the helicopters," Mr Neilsen said.
Police Inspector Donovan Clarke said the flight instructor's body would be recovered from the crash site in the morning. Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) will be investigating the crash.
CAA general manager safety information John Kay said investigators were flying to the site tonight.
"They will start the investigation as soon as it is safe to do so." Mr Kay said he did not yet know what had caused the crash or how long the investigation would take.

I remember thinking this afternoon that at least no lives were lost in the previous 2 prangs...then read this several minutes ago.

Condolences to family, friends and colleagues.

LP

[dudduddud]

If this keeps up, rather than having a pilot shortage we are going to have a plane shortage!

[devolved]

ok whats going on!!!!?!?! Its been minimum 1 a day now.

Another plane has gone down this morning

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10472465

Thankfully they survived.

C185 with 4 pax at the Tangahoe Station airstrip 1130am.

[buggaluggs]

A bad few days for GA in NZ -

Two peeps, very lucky by the sound of it, to walk away from a C152 after a tailwind overrun/overshoot accident at omaka. :ouch:

One instructor lost, RIP , and one student injured in a crash near Ruatahuna, northwest of Lake Waikaremoana, student walked out for help. :{

And now a pilot and three hunters injured in a C185 mishap on a remote airstrip west of Ohakune!

“they” say it normally happens in threes, so hopefully that’s the end of the run! Everyone please fly bloody carefully down there! Even more so then you normally do! :sad:

Buggs out

P.s. Anyone know who's C185 it was?

[kiwiblue]

I agree buggalugs, a shockingly bad run in just a couple of days. People are out there busy making the Campaign Against Aviation's case for them. Tough to combat an entrenched stance with this sort of thing going on -regrettably, we're not even into the historically "bad period" (Xmas/NY) yet. C'mon people, play safe -live to fight another day!!! If you're wrinkle is starting to pucker, you probably don't ought to be there -bug out, think it through, come up with a better plan.

Re: the 185, keep an eye on the accident briefs on the CAA website. It'll be there before week's end.

[Tapp0]

Wow what a tragic few days!

What was the cause of the second incident with the instructor and the student

[Voidhawk9]

Strong winds in a mountainous region... :sad:

[plucka]

Always sad to hear of a death and my sympathies.

However speaking about the 172 crash at Omaka, someones arse should be severely kicked and if this is the standard of our students, god help us, 'especially one of the best flying students'.

Not only were they downwind they were also flapless and their go around attempt consisted of full back elevator until the thing stalled, then dropped a wing and speared into the ground vertically.

They are both very lucky but lets hope that we dont have to make these bigger mistakes to learn anything.

[ZKSUJ]

There was another one two days ago. A first solo guy clipped a fence and the plane flipped upside down

It was on the news

[Corkey McFuz]

Anyone know who's C185 it was?

Was ZK-CAN from Taupo I believe. Usually sits outside there, bright yellow and black from memory :sad:

[empacher48]

Strong winds in a mountainous region... :sad:

Isn't a problem if you know what you are doing. (From someone who does this on a daily basis around mountains - come on the Ureweras are barely 5000' high, they're foot-hills!! Plus I do it with paying passengers!!).

It is tragic that a young life has ended, and my thoughts go out to all those who worked with and knew this person. But lets not make this out to be another "lets guess the cause because I have read the newspaper/TV/it came to me in a dream!" or "I know everything about flying so this is what happened".

Wait for the facts to come out in the accident report, learn from it and move on. Sorry but I think this is the worst thing about this industry, someone has an accident, lives are lost, and everybody starts coming out with their theories over causes and reasons, without knowing any facts.

Sorry But Rant Over!

[burty]

Does anyone know what the Rego of the 152 was?

Very sad.

[glekichi]

Plucka, did you witness the accident firsthand or is that heresay? Despite what I am about to write, I find that scarily excessive.

I fly with the same group of students (albeit at a different school) and must admit that I do find lack of situational awareness to be a distinct problem.

Having spent many years overseas myself I can fully sympathise with the language barrier issue, but it seems to be more than just that. Sometimes I wonder what is required to get through to these students. They seem to be good at parroting what is shown to them but unable to do anything remotely different unless prompted or having been shown exactly the same beforehand. The number of times I have had to intervene to prevent an aircraft from driving off the side of a runway due to torque effect is unbelievable. :ugh:
They are not unintelligent fellows, but it is quite clear that traditional kiwi (western?) teaching methods just do not work as well as they need to most of the time.

Perhaps a lot of instructors give up due to the language barrier... correct their mistakes for them, without trying to teach them, and leave it there??
The only time I have experienced anything at all similar is when teaching a celebrity who had been clearly wrapped in cotton wool throughout their previous flying with a fan/instructor....

An a side note, a LOT of flying is being done by international students now, and it wouldnt surprise me if close to half of the flight training going on in NZ is such. So, it is not really fair to be making any bold statements about their safety until at least half of the training incidents/accidents in NZ are directly contributable to international students.

The above has absolutely no relation to the Bay of Plenty accident.
RIP

[pilotdude09]

According to TVNZ, the young girl who was killed yesterday:

"With four years and 500,000 hours behind the controls, O'Reilly's bosses considered her an experienced instructor." :ugh:

She did have 500 hours though.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1316907/1417278

A great shame for GA in New Zealand with all the accidents of late.

[Kiwiguy]

Strong winds in a mountainous region...

You mean up in terrorist training camp territory ?

Sure there weren't some bullet holes ?:ouch:

[nike]

Sorry....but not funny.

[Steve Zissou]

A couple of questions... how in the first place is someone rated as a 'top pilot'? Why is such a 'top pilot' trying to land a plane with a 20 knot tailwind, or more to the point doing iti in such a way that they go off the end of a 1,000 metre runway?

Surely the other pilot wasn't his instructor?

[hoggsnortrupert]

empacher48 Quote:
Strong winds in a mountainous region...
Isn't a problem if you know what you are doing. (From someone who does this on a daily basis around mountains - come on the Ureweras are barely 5000' high, they're foot-hills!! Plus I do it with paying passengers!!).
I guess you can compare the Power and Wing loading of a C152 to what ever you pole about with punters!
At 27 you are no doubt a mountain ACE?
The poor lass was 21, with 500 Hrs, so if lucky she had 300 hrs Commercial Ops:
SOME of us are LUCKY enough to LIVE through occassions when we realise we could have done something better! Unfortunately WE all have to start somewhere, and it is to a large degree, how lucky we are that gives us experience.
It was not the Wee Lass's day.
To her mates and students, and to her operator, my heartfelt sympathy.
H/Snort

[First_Principal]

I'd been thinking about this and wondered why you wouldn't notice a significantly increased groundspeed to normal on finals (with a 20kn tailwind) but if Plucka is correct and it was an [intentional] flapless landing then I suppose their situational awareness may have got out of kilter.

I'm always hesitant to criticise since I'm sure as hell not perfect myself. I can recall three recent tailwind landings I've done - once to conform to a local operators circuit pattern and twice when the wind changed on the downwind and I didn't notice the windsock swing on finals. Whilst I'm talking just two or three knots here (I'd like to think I'd notice twenty!) it's something that can easily happen. After these landings I'd told myself to make a final check of a windsock but I don't always remember 'cos I'm concentrating on what's going on ahead of me and if it's a field where the 'socks are not within my normal field of vision on final then I'm not visually prompted to do so. I don't recall ever being taught to make such a check so it's not ingrained within my flying psyche but if something is to be taken from this then perhaps it would be a good training safety check to make and one that might have caused these guys somewhat less distress.

Perhaps this incident also indicates a need for more emphasis on go-around training, judging just when to know you're not going to make it and exactly what to do. I can well recall my EFATO training & other such things but once again I don't remember a great deal of emphasis on the go-around and there certainly is a bit of get-down-itis once you're established on finals so to break that mode of thinking takes some discipline.

All this is said, I might add, to prompt some debate on things that are worth thinking about - with respect to the particular incident it's possible we might find they had engine failure at an awkward stage and didn't have much choice in the matter, this might explain not powering up to go-round... if that's the case then it wasn't a complete botch-up, after all they survived quite well, but then again someone might have a bit more info?

Finally I was very saddened to hear of the BOP accident. It only serves to remind us of the frailty of our craft and ourselves. Whether or not there is ultimately something to be learned from it will always be overshadowed by the loss of a young compatriot.

[plucka]

I did not see the accident but I wouldn't call the information I have shared here hearsay either, more an accurate account from a very experienced witness firsthand. I didn't mean to imply that they did not add power for their attempted 'go around'. They previously set up on finals for 07 before over shooting that runway, it may of been the fact that a retired airline pilot was holding at 30 (the into wind runway) informed them that they were downwind, as he also did when they approached on 12. Wouldnt you think if you were on finals and there was an aircraft waiting at the other end of the runway to takeoff that alarm bells would start to ring.
I am not blameing the students entirely or their nationality but I do suggest their instructors should have red faces.

When I learnt to fly I was taught that if your chosen landing SPOT goes under the nose and you are not in the landing configuration i.e. low and slow then you go around. With experience you learn to tell earlier and earlier in the approach if you are going to make the SPOT. Notice SPOT not give ot take 300m.

recently we have seen two airliners do the same thing as these two blokes did, land fast and long, due it would seem, to poor weather decisions.

'Finally I was very saddened to hear of the BOP accident. It only serves to remind us of the frailty of our craft and ourselves. Whether or not there is ultimately something to be learned from it will always be overshadowed by the loss of a young compatriot.'

well said.

[c100driver]

empacher48

"Isn't a problem if you know what you are doing. (From someone who does this on a daily basis around mountains - come on the Ureweras are barely 5000' high, they're foot-hills!! Plus I do it with paying passengers!!)."

With comments like the above you sound like the normal young ZQN based expert i.e. a twit (I know lots of ZQN based pilots, the older ones who have been flying in your area for decades and are the experts and dont proclaim to be "mountain flying experts")

Flying in Mountain Terrain has nothing to do with the size of your Knobs!

The Urewera, Kaimanawa, Ruahine ranges are some of most rugged mountainous ranges in the country. In over 30 years of GA part 91 and 135 operations in North and South Island, two of my three worst turbs have been in the middle of the North Island, and once at the back of the Benmore range in the South Island. The Southern Alps are a walk in the park compared to trying to navigate the Kaimanawa Ranges in a good westerly!

The Lower South Island tends to have higher hills, bigger valleys and stronger winds, however for total utter violence the Kaweka, Ruahine, Kaikoura and Tasman ranges are the tops.

[Cypher]

http://www.sportsgamer.com/forums/images/smilies/mn/allhail.gif
Your the man empacher48.. can you teach me how to fly around mountains?

[Launchpad McQuack]

The Urewera, Kaimanawa, Ruahine ranges are some of most rugged mountainous ranges in the country. In over 30 years of GA part 91 and 135 operations in North and South Island, two of my three worst turbs have been in the middle of the North Island, and once at the back of the Benmore range in the South Island. The Southern Alps are a walk in the park compared to trying to navigate the Kaimanawa Ranges in a good westerly!


I have to second that statement, based on my own experience on several occasions...I once flew both Islands in the same day with a strong westerly and knew it was going to be uncomfortable (but within aircraft's/my abilities) and I was surprised to find it more difficult amongst the North Island ranges than the Southern Alps (I have plenty of M/F experience)...on that trip I encountered the worst turbulence I've flown through at that time.

The Lower South Island tends to have higher hills, bigger valleys and stronger winds, however for total utter violence the Kaweka, Ruahine, Kaikoura and Tasman ranges are the tops.

C100driver - Agreed 100%. Wish I'd known at the time, the aforementioned trip really got my pulse going...and I was in a larger aircraft, bugger doing it in a 152.

LP

[troppo]

Cypher...dig your icons.correct me if I'm wrong but all 3 below mentioned ranges have alternative routes. Why battle turbulence in an under powered aircraft when there are alternative options? What happened to situational awareness? If you are going to fly marginal routes in adverse conditions and not carry enough altitude nor performance, why not find another way?

[empacher48]

Well, what a reaction, and to be honest not one I was expecting. I do realise that sometimes reasonable discussion can turn into name calling and self-ego-inflation, and I am sorry there is a lot of resentment held out there by people who don't fly in Queenstown and it may have to come out in the ways we have seen. But besides the odd charter I have never flown down there, and never had the inclination to either.

I never said in my first post that I was a mountain flying expert (or ace or whatever I have been refered as). By refering to the height of the Ureweras, I was meaning that most light aircraft would have the ability to fly over the top of them. When I was taught the fly in mountains over 10 years ago (yes I learned to fly in the southern alps, and still remember the first trip to 13,000' in a Pa28-140), I was told always have an alternative route or escape plan, the wind speed is only just more important than the direction, and the VSI is the most important instrument in the cockpit followed by the ASI.

Let the abuse continue....

[troppo]

Empacher please don't miscontrue my appreciation of cyphers icons for anything other than face value. I have have always remained neutral. Indeed you are the first to mention alternative route and escape options. That's what I was getting at and fully support your comments.

[empacher48]

please don't miscontrue my appreciation of cyphers icons for anything other than face value

Not at all, I've always wondered where people get them from..

[troppo]

In that case cheers my brutha from anutha mutha! The bourbon is sweet and the Air Pac hosties are sweeter! Join me at the vuda yacht club any time!

[empacher48]

In that case cheers my brutha from anutha mutha! The bourbon is sweet and the Air Pac hosties are sweeter! Join me at the vuda yacht club any time!

That all sounds good! I'd love to come up your way sometime, get out of the ol' aviation rat race here in NZ.

[kiwi chick]

empacher48 - I totally agree with what you said and I don't think you sounded like a tosser!

Had a near-death experience through those ranges myself (well... it felt like it at the time) - brand new PPL, no experience, no fricken idea basically, told to fly through there by my instructor "on a nice clear day so that if you ever get stuck due to weather you can find your way through on a crap day..."

Westerly 25-35 kts... like I said... no idea. To date and 500 hours later have not experienced turbulence like it.

Tis very very sad. RIP. :(

[hard_yakka]

Does anyone know what the Rego of the 152 was?

Newspaper report said that the aircraft was nicknamed "the kid".

I therefore assume it was ZK-KID which is registered to Bayflight International. (ex ZK-ETV)

[kiwi chick]

Or it may have been ZK-SON which they also have?

[NZFlyingKiwi]

It was -KID.

[hoggsnortrupert]

empacher48 Let the abuse continue....
You will give yourself tennis elbow there lad, favouring abuse like that::D:D:D
kiwi chick empacher48 - I totally agree with what you said and I don't think you sounded like a tosser!
I do :=:=
No doubt in another 10-15000 hrs you will look back and realise a few things, hope you survive it my friend.
The point is even having an out is not a guarantee that you will survive the out manouver, its knowing "when to use the manouver before you need it" that counts in my book.
H/Snort:ok:

[kiwi chick]

I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong?) that he said "having an out is the answer to everything and just go ahead and do dangerous **** anyway".

I think his point - which I agree with - was (again, correct me if I'm wrong):

If you are going to be flying in **** like that, you should firstly be aware of what you're getting yourself into, ie wind direction, consequences, lee side etc... I don't need to go on, you all know what I mean.

And if you ARE going to fly in **** like that - especially with a student on board who IS going to copy nearly everything they see you do - then you should have an out. Especially if you are flying in an underpowered aircraft like a C152. :ooh:

There would be nothing worse than seeing the VSI at about minus 1,000,000 ft per minute (OK i exaggerate but you get my point) knowing there is NOTHING you can do but ride it out and get the f:mad:k out of there.

Let me make myself quite clear here too - I don't know what happened and I am in no way casting judgement on this poor girl or her decisions - just responding to comments made thus far.

[ZKSUJ]

Condolences to the family and friends of the young instructor that passed away. It is very unfortunate

[hoggsnortrupert]

Kiwichick:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing:
There has been no one making aspertions as to what happened, comments only to some very immature stuff.
There would be nothing worse than seeing the VSI at about minus 1,000,000 ft per minute (OK i exaggerate but you get my point) knowing there is NOTHING you can do but ride it out and get the fk out of there.
POint is what are you doing there in the first place, now as I said, getting started is tough, at 300 hrs commercial ops you know sweet F--k all, at 10K I stated to learn ( Hey I'm a slow starter), what ever happened is for the authorities to work out.
This poor girl had 300 hrs, she was unlucky.
There is a hell of a lot more to flying around Mountains than Wind direction & lee side:
No more comment from me::=
Chr's
H/Snort:
PS: Come clean do you and empacher 48 actually fly for a living or are you wannab's?:ok:

[empacher48]

Come clean do you and empacher 48 actually fly for a living or are you wannab's

Yes I do fly for a living,

To reinforce what kiwichick was saying about negative VSI rates; yes I do see very regularly VSI descent rates with the VSI pegged on the downstop, but there is one thing for sure, if you keep heading into wind, the VSI will very quickly be pegged onto the up stop, then as you push even further into wind the VSI will be pegged onto the down stop, then again pegged onto the upstop... Usually after doing that a few times you would've crossed the mountain range that is causing this phenomena called "Mountain wave" and you'll be on the upwind side. You get this whenever there is significant wind over a significant mountain range, ie: the Southern Alps in either Westerly or Easterly conditions. Glider pilots know about this phenomena, how else would Omarama be the gliding captial of the world, and trips to over 30,000' be possible in the South Island, it ain't ridge lift that gets them there, nor thermals - they help them get into the wave and then its easy to get up that high!

I started my wave flying in small fixed wing piston aircraft with about 150 hours TT, I was shown the effect of wave (I did mention the Cherokee to 13,000' but I didn't mention I got from 2,500' to there in under 5 minutes, thats an average climb rate of over 2000fpm!!). My training with the company I work with now is very involved and teaches you a lot about wind, mountain wave, cloud effects that show you indiciations of rotor, lee side turbulence and where to find the smooth air. I am still learning about it and have got it wrong on a number of occasions, usually with a hiding that lifts everything in the aircraft to the roof, but your back up plan is usually in action by then, when there are days which are clearly beyond my skills and more senior pilots are flying, I am able to observe in the RHS and I still learn.

As I said, I am not an expert and never led on that I am an expert. But FLYING AROUND MOUNTAINS IN STRONG WINDS IS NEVER A PROBLEM IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING...

[Capitaine72]

But FLYING AROUND MOUNTAINS IN STRONG WINDS IS NEVER A PROBLEM IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING...

A bold statement my friend if I may be so bold. I have seen pilots who knew what they were doing be surprised.

In those sort of situations the only thing you can expect is the unexpected. Murphy has a way of catching up with anyone. The only way to survive is to be as prepared as possible and under-rate yourself. Self preservation is being a little scared.

:D:D:D:D

[MikeJulietHotel]

empacher48 said: But FLYING AROUND MOUNTAINS IN STRONG WINDS IS NEVER A PROBLEM IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING...That's called hubris.

hoggsnortrupert said: at 10K I sta[r]ted to learnThat's called humility.

The whole point of this discussion centres around those two words: it's about attitude not knowledge or experience.

I reckon that humble pilots have the best chance of living long lives and enjoying their grandkids.

MJH

[V1650]

VH Vin I hope your not seriously suggesting that anyone should land any aircraft even on the worlds longest runways even with a 30 knot tail wind !!!, if this is being taught ? well its a perfect example of how accidents occur and maybe why pilots come in so bloody fast ! :ugh:

[Cypher]

I got the icons from
http://www.sportsgamer.com/forums/misc.php?do=showsmilies
Just cut and paste the link..
I could have used the tosser smiler but I thought that was a bit too harsh.. and didn't convey what I was thinking at the time...
I have done the odd flight in Queenstown, in a C172 to now days.. bringing the odd jet into the 'bowl'... I have a lot of respect for those mountains.. even in a jet.. when downdrafts don't care what your flying...
Troppo.. you got a point there..
No abuse intended... I just wanted to use my funky icons :}

[haughtney1]

As I said, I am not an expert and never led on that I am an expert. But FLYING AROUND MOUNTAINS IN STRONG WINDS IS NEVER A PROBLEM IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING...
empacher48, I suspect if you are doing some reasonable mountain flying, you may live to regret that statement.
As has been stated, mountain/hill (depending on your viewpoint) is a dangerous and unpredictable beast....yes there are techniques, and yes there are the factors of experience and local knowledge...but ultimately it comes down to risk management...just like everything else we do in aviation.

[Kiwiguy]

Sorry....but not funny.

Tame Iti is a funny little bloke, but that's no reason to underestimate him.

Maybe it wasn't intended in humour either.

In Mountaineering we talk about objective and subjective threats. In the Uraweras this issue has migrated from subjective to objective.

[Cypher]

I'm just peeling myself outta the sim, or the 'box of death'.... where they throw every emergency at you known to man,

I had a thought....

How do you know that "you know what your doing"?


http://www.sportsgamer.com/forums/images/smilies/mn/respekt.gif

[kiwi chick]

Thanks empacher48 you've pretty much summed up what I meant :ok:

hoggsnortrupert

I'm not sure that you've totally understood me here? I wasn't going to bother replying, but your title (spelt wrong, I might add! ;)) "Quitting With Dignity" really got my goat - this implies that I have said or done something to embarrass myself, and I should shut up before doing even more so.

It doesn't really matter to me what your opinion of me is, but I do care what others on this forum - who I have come to like and respect - may think, based on your comments. Hence my reply :)

I never once said you should be in that situation to start with - not in my job or hers. Emapcher48's job is a different story. I also realise (with my very little time and experience) that there is a lot more to mountain flying than wind direction and lee side, hence my comment:

ie wind direction, consequences, lee side etc... I don't need to go on, you all know what I mean.

You say:

There has been no one making aspertions as to what happened, comments only to some very immature stuff.

Yet comment number #13 was:

Strong winds in a mountainous region... :sad:

All we're doing is having a grown-up discussion about the whats, whys, and wherefores. We're human.

And finally, no, I am not a "wannab" :ok: I get paid very well to fly ;)

[First_Principal]

It strikes me that the time has come for us all to show a little respect here, and that things have been getting a bit OTT.

I recently had the tragic experience of reading (in Pprune) of the death of a pilot in Australia and then taking a 'phone call from a friend just a few minutes later to tell me that his a member of his family was that pilot. I was able to pass on the details of the Pprune thread that contained, amongst other things, a very touching and eloquent piece of prose that he later commented on, I think it helped a lot in fact.

I don't think I'd do the same for this thread I'm disappointed to say :sad:.

A young woman, one of our compatriots, has died and whilst it's all very well to try and learn from that at some stage it's entirely inappropriate, IMO, to carry on this sort of brawling in public :(. If you want to have a go at each other or wibble about how much more you know than everyone else then how about doing it in another thread, or in private, or better still shut it entirely 'cos it does us all a disservice and could only increase the heatache of the youngsters family should they read it all.

I am in the curious position, it would appear, of being able to delete this thread and if it weren't for some decent comments made by a few people I believe I would. For the others if any of you feel like editing or removing your posts then be my guest, it might show a sensitivity and maturity that has been sadly lacking to date.

[kiwi chick]

All due respect, First_Principal, but where would you suggest we discuss these sorts of things? :confused:

If we deleted these posts, and carried on under a different thread - the information is still there in black and white for any family member to read should they so happen upon it.

Granted, some of the discussions have got a little childish - but hell, we're pilots. Self-centred egotistical personalities - thats what we do.

I will be the first to put my hand up and apologise to any family member that might read this and be upset; but I won't apologise for the things I've said.

I'm sure however that your intentions were completely altruistic, and I respect that.

Kiwi Chick

[hoggsnortrupert]

God help us if people like you ( 35 yr old Chick?)are in charge of airborne machinary::ugh::ugh:
Show some damn respect::mad::mad:
H/Snort :=:=
MODS: Help required, lets stop it here: feel free to wipe my thread if you think its needed.
Chr's H?Snort

[kiwi chick]

Whoah. I guess I've been told.