How can we educate the Public on the Pilot Shortage!

[Charliethewonderdog]

Surely It's time that the general public be educated on how the Pilot shortage has occurred ??
If someone could organize ( AFAP are you listening?) a page long advertisement in the Friday Australian on how Companies have treated pilots for the last twenty years with terms and conditions.
With maybe a link to this site so they can read and learn about the contempt that GA and Airlines have towards it's employees, and how they have continually ignored it's workers for so long that the Pilot shortage has been born.
Include statistics on how much it cost and how long it takes to be qualified for an airline.
Include average wages for a GA pilot.
Include costs associated to keep current, Medicals, books, amendments...etc...
Include statistics on how many skilled Pilots have left Australia for overseas, also mentioning how respected they are. Include the countries in which they work in too and how much they can earn.
Include strories about how A certain Night frieght company blatantly admitted to the pilots, even thought they working more would not get a pay-rise because they "would leave anyway".
Australian Aviation needs to pay it's pilots more.... Lets not let these @#$%ing airlines get away with importing pilots to take our jobs....
They caused the shortage, why should they benefit from cheap overseas labour????
If we can have a fuel surcharge why can't we have a skilled labour surcharge to pay the pilots???

[knackeredII]

I truly don't think the public cares. They didn't care in '89 and they don't care now!

[SmokingHole]

You got it in one Knackered, they dont know nor would they care.

Patience Charlie, all good things to those who wait. Good boy.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_22_14.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYYYAU)

[Charliethewonderdog]

I dont care if the public cares or not, I just want them to KNOW...... the situation, and I believe it's the AFAP's duty do so.

Seeing what the TWU hs done for the National Joke in such a short time makes me wonder what the AFAP actually does????????


Do you care about the kids in Iraq??? yes or no????

[Founder]

Just how serious is the pilot shortage?

I live in europe and I cant say that I see a real shortage? sure the requirements are going down but they still find people with a couple of hundered hours on type...

[Crossbleed]

Which kid's in Iraq? Theirs or ours? :E:O:ok:

[Ramboflyer 1]

more than 10,000 hrs jet applied to all jet companies in Aus no replies. What shortage. Rumour not one EK guy has been contacted by tiger for interviews. Whats the go.

[Angle of Attack]

I hear you Charlie but its gonna be a bit hard considering the majority voted for the No Choices Government. Nuff said. Its good to see regardless of all the hurdles the repurcussions are happening right now in the election campaign (GO NJ pilots you good thing!) The public is unaware not only of pilots but how stuffed the system is in all areas including health, education etc. The guts have been ripped out by this government, thata the fact.

Crossbleed : Well Until 5000 diggers are killed it wont match the horror that has occured to the innocent civilians in Iraq. At least the diggers knew the risks. A wrong pathetic war brought on by the government we voted in goddam lets get them out please !

[Peter Fanelli]

Do you care about the kids in Iraq??? yes or no????


Are they not doing they joined the military to do?
If they don't want to fight a war, why join the military?

[Howard Hughes]

How can we educate the Public on the Pilot Shortage?

You don't need to, flying schools have been doing it for years...;)

[Grivation]

I've spoken to a few people lately who are well aware of the problems Rex are having crewing flights.

In fact someone said it came out in a frequent flyer email!

[KRUSTY 34]

Sadly, like most things in this modern material world, most people will not give 2 stuffs untill it directly affects them.

As AOA said charlie, have patience. The Travelling public will be giving more than 2 stuffs before long. The problem is that untill now, all they have been getting is management/political misinformation and spin.

When things get really grim, that misinformation will need to be adressed!

[2p!ssed2drive]

I think Krusty is right.

People just want to get on a plane and go from A to B. It's "the plane" that gets them there.. not the 'pilots.' (mental thinking)

Until their flight is cancelled, or frequently cancelled, is when they will start wondering about any pilot shortage.

But good thought Charlie. It'd be nice if people got the right information and facts, compared to being led up the garden path by media and management types. :ugh:

[aircraft]

Another brilliant idea, Charliethewonderdog

The public don't want to be educated and are already aware that there are shortages of many other skills besides piloting.

... how Companies have treated pilots for the last twenty years with terms and conditions.

The pilots have not been mistreated! They have been paid about as well as the industry can afford - every industry tends to pay their staff about as well as it can afford.

How is it that you are not aware of these basic, basic realities of the world you live in, the country you live in, and the industry you work in? Do you live under a rock but come out occasionally just to post brilliant ideas on PPrune?

You seem to be in a seething rage about how "exploited" the pilots have been. Tell me something. When you sell your house to somebody, obtaining the best price in the process, do you feel you have exploited that person because you extracted a good price?

You need to come to terms with some of the little realities of this industry. One of those little realities is that it is largely dependent on pilots paying vast sums to self fund their training.

Get with it.

[blueloo]

The pilots have not been mistreated! They have been paid about as well as the industry can afford - every industry tends to pay their staff about as well as they can afford


Well something has gone wrong with this theory - because it looks like what they can/could afford is apparently about to bite them in the arse.


I suspect they may have to learn how to afford a bit more now.

[2p!ssed2drive]

aircraft:

When you sell your house to somebody, obtaining the best price in the process, do you feel you have exploited that person because you extracted a good price?


all I know is that I don't follow mate...

your posts amuse me however..........

[toolowtoofast]

Pilot shortage is all well and good. I'm still waiting for that magic call.

It's the engineering shortage that concerns me. Here's my spin on it:

When you get into an aeroplane to fly somewhere, you either interact with your pilot, or if in a bigger machine, you at least know that there is 2/3 pilots up front.

You accept that they have been trained, and have (usually) earned their position.

How do you know what standard of engineering/cost cutting has gone on under the floor? You can't even see what has been done (or not done as the case may be....)

[ratpoison]

Good idea, however one small problem.
Even though the airlines have shafted drivers well and truely over the years, it's going to be a bit hard educating the public that we are hard up. The average Joe Blow unfortunately is working two jobs 6-7 days a week, the wife also, probably earning a total of 50 - 60k a year, then panic when the electricity bill comes in. There is no doubt whatsoever that there is a lot of folk doing it bloody hard at the moment. Then when or if it is exposed how bad the airlines treat us, and we are still earning 130k plus, 10 days or so off a month and 6 weeks holiday a year, I very much doubt we will get much sympathy from the Oz travelling public. :cool:

[Charliethewonderdog]

I just don't want the Airlines to get an easy ride from the Government when they caused the Pilot shortage.

The public don't care???? well all my friends outside of aviation do!!

They know what it's cost. They know how hard it's been.

You tell them what a GA pilot earns and they laugh, " I got paid more working for coles", or " my girlfriend earns more as receptionist!"

I personally know a dozen pilots that have lost their lives, How many receptionist or coles workers have lost their lives????
You tell them what a RFDS pilot earns and the reply " a ambo driver earns twice that " hmmm.

Then they normally came back with the old chestnut " it will be all worth it when you get to an airline " until you mention that you have to come up $30,000 dollars and then they start to laugh again.

I bet most of you have had the same response's from friends.

A properly run campaign to educate the wider community, who at a guess would probably know someone who is a pilot, so as to explain to them what is required to become a pilot, the training, the costs, the conditions are etc...
Just so they know.......

Or are we too proud or embarrassed to public admit what a weak group of professionals we are??? and that we have been screwed over constantly.
I think so.

During my Career I can honestly say that I am absolutely embarrassed to be apart of group of professionals that can't even fight for basic working conditions.
Companies treat as like the jokes that we are.

By the way I was talking about the KIDS in Iraq ( the thousands that have been killed), proves my point perfectly.

If you don't know you DON'T have to CARE. So educate them.

[Lodown]

Chaliethewonderdog, what is the outcome you wish to achieve? Educate the public for what reason?

I'm actually supportive of aircraft's argument on this one. If you feel that pilots have been screwed, then shame on you. You and every other pilot in Australia could take your services elsewhere if you felt you weren't getting paid enough.

That's not to say I don't support an increase in wages. I do! However, the reason why wages have been so low for years is not the sole blame of airline company execs. They have a job to do and that is to reduce their costs and increase their profits as much as they possibly can. The pilots en masse had very little bargaining power and zero negotiating skills. The corporate execs don't come to work wondering which pilots they can bust down each day.

(Unfortunately, this isn't a good forum for the airline exec. Any one of them who tried to represent the other side would immediately be on the defensive and his/her argument wouldn't have much opportunity to be heard.)

"You get what you negotiate!" You're in a much better position to negotiate your service fees these days and it's getting more favourable with each day. If you go into a meeting with the intention to be the screwer and not the screwee, I can almost guarantee you'll come out as the victim. Know your price and your worth, leave the malice outside and negotiate as a professional and not as a thug.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Chaliethewonderdog, what is the outcome you wish to achieve? Educate the public for what reason?
So as to have a balanced argument against the Companies veiw point as to why te SHORTAGE HAS occured. To let the share holders of these companies know how the management has bcaused the Shortage.
I'm actually supportive of aircraft's argument on this one. If you feel that pilots have been screwed, then shame on you. You and every other pilot in Australia could take your services elsewhere if you felt you weren't getting paid enough.
Or we could negotiate a better deal. Would the general public be in favour of guruda pilots, ot 1 to 2 go pilots, Air China Pilots....etc... replacing Australian pilots because we have left for better jobs overseas???
That's not to say I don't support an increase in wages. I do! However, the reason why wages have been so low for years is not the sole blame of airline company execs. They have a job to do and that is to reduce their costs and increase their profits as much as they possibly can. The pilots en masse had very little bargaining power and zero negotiating skills. The corporate execs don't come to work wondering which pilots they can bust down each day.
Who else is to blame then????? I suppose it's not their fault that pilots ARE leaving for overseas for better paying jobs??? by the way the Airlines in Australia are as profitable as any other aviation sector around the world.
(Unfortunately, this isn't a good forum for the airline exec. Any one of them who tried to represent the other side would immediately be on the defensive and his/her argument wouldn't have much opportunity to be heard.)
Maybe because these exec's have been told about the shortage for so long but they didn't believe it and didn't act and they have to defend their actions or lack of actions to the shareholders why nothing was done. re: rex managements spin.
Any exec can came on here and put up an argument. Maybe they haven't got one. To busy lining there own pockets with huge profit bonuses.
"You get what you negotiate!" hang on what are you saying????? leave or stay????? shall I stay and negotiate or move overseas???
You're in a much better position to negotiate your service fees these days and it's getting more favourable with each day. If you go into a meeting with the intention to be the screwer and not the screwee, I can almost guarantee you'll come out as the victim. Know your price and your worth, leave the malice outside and negotiate as a professional and not as a thug.
Who mentioned screwing any one over???????? We know our price and we are undervalued, the proof of that is simply, THERE IS A PILOT SHORTAGE!!!!!
I dont know who your are but I dont think you added anything to this thread.
What a company like REX refuses to do is to ask it's workers what conditions that they would STAY on with. ??????? to much to ask????

[Placido]

Hi all!

The problem is simply not enough young people are joining the pilot pool. Why? T&C are bad.

The cause? Management wanted more profits AND pilots let it happen.

Now, bean counters don't value something that they don't pay for. The more they pay the more the perceived value of that item.

It is our task to drive our own price up, pilots sell themselves short all the time and then cry about it afterwards.

At your next interview, how much will YOU ask for?

Or will you simply look at the offer?

What is the price of your service?

Have you ever complained about T&C at an interview?

We are to blame for the current situation through our inaction!

WE have to bring change about, not the airlines.

Next time, state your price.

[PlankBlender]

Aircraft, so far I have suffered your -- at times painful -- logical hiccups quietly, but the chestnut you came up with now takes the biscuit! Where on earth did you pick up that any industry will pay workers what they can afford?? Excuse my language, but that's bulls:mad:t!

Pay is in market economies dictated by supply and demand, nothing else. Companies have the interest to reduce cost and increase income and to balance the two, and retaining staff comes under reducing cost and so does paying pilots what companies can get away with based on the supply of pilots (and to a lesser degree their collective bargaining power)!

Now where there is excess supply of pilots (like post 9/11 where global industry capacity was sharply reduced), prices for pilots go down, now that it seems to be swinging the other way, prices/conditions will increase.

Let's try not to make it more complicated, shall we :}

[Paper Planes]

At your next interview, how much will YOU ask for?

Or will you simply look at the offer?

What is the price of your service?

Have you ever complained about T&C at an interview?

We are to blame for the current situation through our inaction!

WE have to bring change about, not the airlines.

Next time, state your price.


I would love to state my price and tell them what I expect but there is always other pilots who are willing to prostitue themselves in the name of scoring a flying gig. It really ticks me off when I see some pilots do this. It makes it hard to negotiate decent conditions.

As for the public they really don't care about pilots and will only realise we are important when their holidays or weekend plans are messed up.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Where on earth did you pick up that any industry will pay workers what they can afford?? Excuse my language, but that's bullst!

It begs the question - are you suggesting that any industry will pay workers what they cannot afford?
I would love to state my price and tell them what I expect but there is always other pilots who are willing to prostitue themselves in the name of scoring a flying gig. It really ticks me off when I see some pilots do this. It makes it hard to negotiate decent conditions.

Well it ticks me off to see people telling others what they should work for. If they are happy performing those duties for those wages then that's great.
Everyone has a price at which they would perform a certain job. What you are advocating is that everyone should only do a certain job for the price you would be happy with.
It shouldn't be easy to demand what you want when there are others who want to do the same job. Just like buying homes. If lots of other people want that house it isn't easy to negotiate the terms you want as the owner has other options.

[excellr8]

Lobyists do it all the time. They champion the cause to meet their own ends or their fee payers ends. When your big enough you have a department that does it for you. Case in point Qantas during the APA bid. The pilots of 89 had an up hill battle convincing the public of their cause it's just they where up against a far more powerfull public perception machine.....the government. But this time around during an election if there are 'events' like the NJS dispute it may help highlight how pathetic our conditions are and because during an election most parties want to be you friend, and if there is an issue that either side could get miles out of then this is a vital time start jumping up and down making noises hence a lobby group. It would of been good to discuss this at least a year ago so hopefully an issue like the NJS fight will do it for us this time around. I congratulate the boys and girls who are taking up the issue. It amazes me to read some of the defeatest posts saying tried that been there. It is only through inaction that the whole pilot body in this country is being dictated to by bean counters. Where only worth what we accept.
To conclude the rant one question......why is it we have the AFAP and AIPA and it takes the TWU to get the ball rolling?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

because during an election most parties want to be you friend,

wrong. They want to be the friends of "the general public".

You can pretend to be blind to the effect that industrial action imparts on others but you won't ever stop a member of "the public" coming undone on camera because they missed a critical life event such as their mother passing away because they couldn't get a flight home.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Lobyists do it all the time. They champion the cause to meet their own ends or their fee payers ends. When your big enough you have a department that does it for you. Case in point Qantas during the APA bid. The pilots of 89 had an up hill battle convincing the public of their cause it's just they where up against a far more powerfull public perception machine.....the government. But this time around during an election if there are 'events' like the NJS dispute it may help highlight how pathetic our conditions are and because during an election most parties want to be you friend, and if there is an issue that either side could get miles out of then this is a vital time start jumping up and down making noises hence a lobby group. It would of been good to discuss this at least a year ago so hopefully an issue like the NJS fight will do it for us this time around. I congratulate the boys and girls who are taking up the issue. It amazes me to read some of the defeatest posts saying tried that been there. It is only through inaction that the whole pilot body in this country is being dictated to by bean counters. Where only worth what we accept.
To conclude the rant one question......why is it we have the AFAP and AIPA and it takes the TWU to get the ball rolling?

:D excellent post:D

I again and I ask the AFAP to come on down and convince me that I should remain a member!!! tell me what they have achieved during my time as a member to make better conditions for Pilots?????? explain to me why the Aviation award has never had a CPI increase????? Explain to me why they continually offered the Virgin Pilots sub standard deals that the Pilot group continually Knocked back????

Explain to me why the AFAP are as weak as piss???? Why couldn't' they represent the NJ pilots in the same way the TWU has????

Does the AFAP realise that it has basically lost all pilots confidence in it and the ONLY thing that keeps most people members is a loss of licence insurance???

As members we need to clean out the management of this organisation and put in place a team that will represent us.

[Charliethewonderdog]

wrong. They want to be the friends of "the general public".

You can pretend to be blind to the effect that industrial action imparts on others but you won't ever stop a member of "the public" coming undone on camera because they missed a critical life event such as their mother passing away because they couldn't get a flight home.


Well tell them to catch a bus. If the public want one of the most relaible and safest aviation regions in the world they better start paying for it, or they will be alot more funerals then just their mother.

Why is it that the workers get the blame for industrial action???????:ugh:

You beat that drum all you want about the effect on the public, but the ball is in our court now, and Western Australians better stay home instead of going on 2 week tour on the mines where they are getting paid twice as much as a B scale FO for National Joke if they want to stay home with sick mummy. They have been warned.... glove are on ..... go boys and girls..

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Why is it that the workers get the blame for industrial action???????

You beat that drum all you want about the effect on the public, but the ball is in our court now,

You answered your own question.

"The Public" will only blame one/two people when they don't make their daughter's wedding.

You can't say that " We have people's lives in our hands " as a reason for a payrise and expect the very people who you tell "I own you in the air" that it isn't your fault you didn't fly that day because you want a pay rise.

If you want PIA accept you are f***ing over people who have nothing to do with the entire matter - don't try to tell them you have nothing to do with the fact they aren't flying home that day.

As members we need to clean out the management of this organisation and put in place a team that will represent us. Yeah well you shouldn't be doing it at the expense of the Australian population.

[Sir Donald]

Simple,if pilots had a body to represent them different story, but we do not.Why?Don't get me started.
Try 60 minutes, if that show is still around maybe it can expose the truth about the state of today's aviation.

[Lodown]

Charliethewonderdog, you’ll just have to excuse me if I’m not fully grasping your argument.

As Placido mentioned, there are other issues to consider than just “management” for a pilot shortage. It takes two to form an employment contract of sorts. An offer is made, there is consideration and there is an acceptance. Are you blaming the person who made the low offer? Should you not be placing a large proportion of blame with the person who willingly chose to accept the low offer?

What’s wrong with pilots leaving to accept positions overseas? It’s the way a free market should work. The same should apply to pilots who want to migrate here. Company executives are under no obligation to employ pilots to keep them from going overseas.

You think you’re undervalued. A fundamental concept of a market economy is that something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. You might think your talents are worth $300,000 per year, but if the highest bidder is only prepared to pay $20,000, then that’s what your skills are worth.

Advertising? At present, difficulty finding experienced pilots and other staff is a company supply issue. Do you think pilots are going to be held responsible for a pilot shortage? All the rhetoric to this stage is from company executives trying to encourage a growth in employee resources and avoid the finger of blame from shareholders. I can’t understand why you want to advertise. Pilots are entering an unprecedented era of great employment opportunities and phenomenal growth potential and you want to fiddle-fart about and present your side of the argument. What do you care if there is a pilot shortage? It should be all good news for you. Get out and make hay while the sun shines and forget about trying to get one over on the company execs. A pilot shortage is their problem to sort out, not yours. Your problem should be trying to make the best of the opportunities available.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Catch a bus....... I have no sympathy for a paying public who complain about the price of Airline tickets that are half as much as they were 15 years ago.

They can also blame the companies!!! can't they especially if they are educated in the reason WHY the industrial action has occurred, which is the Whole point of this thread.

Let the public understand through a media campaign!! again I ask where are you AFAP. Surely my fees over the last ten years would cover a one page spread in the Australia??????? maybe I'll just pay for it myself, anyone else wanna chip in a coupla bucks for some colour???

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Catch a bus....... I have no sympathy for a paying public who complain about the price of Airline tickets that are half as much as they were 15 years ago

Yup.. I reckon that's what you should advertise in The Australian.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Charliethewonderdog, you’ll just have to excuse me if I’m not fully grasping your argument.
My argument is simple. Management has had an oversupply of pilots for ever..... until now. They have abused this.... ok I'll put it in another way..... they have had the luxury of an over supply of skilled labor which has enabled them to set a value on it's employees, they have over the last 20 years continually erroded conditions and pay, aviation is one of the only proffessions that pay has actaully decreased.
Ok I accept the supply and demand argument...

Now for what ever reason...... there is a pilot shortage. We can came up with many reasons why there is a shortage, but surely anyone can see that poor conditions and reduced pay has been a significant reason for this...????

So now it's our turn to use our psoition in the industry to OUR advantage, we are in DEMAND. Now correct me if I'm wrong but if you are in DEMAND doesn't this mean your value would increase????

As Placido mentioned, there are other issues to consider than just “management” for a pilot shortage. It takes two to form an employment contract of sorts. An offer is made, there is consideration and there is an acceptance. Are you blaming the person who made the low offer? Should you not be placing a large proportion of blame with the person who willingly chose to accept the low offer?
Yes I would blame stupid pilots under valueing them selves.

What’s wrong with pilots leaving to accept positions overseas? It’s the way a free market should work. The same should apply to pilots who want to migrate here. Company executives are under no obligation to employ pilots to keep them from going overseas.

There is nothing wrong with pilots accepting positions over seas. But replacing them with pilots from countries with far less standids then us is a road which I think we shouldn'y go down, There is a reason for Australia's safety record.

You think you’re undervalued. A fundamental concept of a market economy is that something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. You might think your talents are worth $300,000 per year, but if the highest bidder is only prepared to pay $20,000, then that’s what your skills are worth.
Ok park your planes up against the fence then, lets see what they are valued at then. A compay like REX is canceling dozen of flights daily. Have they undervalued it's employees???? I think so.

Advertising? At present, difficulty finding experienced pilots and other staff is a company supply issue. Start advertising and the public will see it as a group arguing for the right to a particular position. I can’t understand why you want to advertise. Pilots are entering an unprecedented era of great employment opportunities and growth potential and you want to fiddle-fart about and present your side of the argument. What do you care if there is a pilot shortage? It's should be all good news for you. Get out and make hay while the sun shines and forget about trying to get one over on the company execs. A pilot shortage is their problem to sort out, not yours.

Well the company execs are still trying to get one over us, by trying convince the goverment that they should help finance new pilots through student loans etc... have you heard about the Multi Crew Licence???

You seem pretty happy to see highly skilled, experienced pilots leave for over seas to be replaced by pilots fresh out of school sitting next to a pilt from a third world country...... surely the public, you, me and every one in Australian Aviation should fight for our standard that we are responsible for... lets not let it slip.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Yup.. I reckon that's what you should advertise in The Australian.


yer and we could advertise that they are going to pay around $5 dollars a seat to keep an aussie pilot from leaving over seas.

Lets look at Doctors, now thats a proffession thats got it's **** together.

Why do doctors get paid so much????? It's because they go to uni for 8 years and work really hard....etc.... no it's not.

The AMA in conjunction with the goverment controls HOW many doctors are trained every year, There is ALAWYS a shortage, thus keeping them always in demand.
How many stories a year do you here about that small country town that can't keep a local GP and has to share one with the town next door??? why you ask??? because there is not enough, doctors are not going to want to live in woop woop on the money they are on. They want that house in torak.. and the BMW just doesn't look cool parked next to a ute with a blue heeler on the back out the front of the Birchip shops. The AMA will always make sure there is a shortage??? have you ever heard about an unemployed doctor???

Now along comes me with my Billion dollars, I open up a Unerversity, just for doctors and I start pumping out 100 qualified doctors a month, soon there is more doctors then postitions, and now suddenly doctors are fighting for that job in woop woop and the conditions start to fall. Thats Supply and demand.

[Lodown]

So now it's our turn to use our psoition in the industry to OUR advantage, we are in DEMAND. Now correct me if I'm wrong but if you are in DEMAND doesn't this mean your value would increase????
Yes, it should.

However, your argument has morphed from having a shot at company execs to now one of defending aviation standards. That's a CASA and government issue. Take it up with them.
Well the company execs are still trying to get one over us, by trying convince the goverment that they should help finance new pilots through student loans etc... have you heard about the Multi Crew Licence???
Huh? Okay, you've lost me. And tell me how advertising is going to help here? They're not trying to "get one over us". They're trying to run their business. Nothing more. Get over it. If you have an issue with it, put your price up and stick it to them in the wallets.

[Lodown]

Just read your last post...
So now you want Federal or union control on how many licences are issued? Just what message are "we" supposed to be advertising???

[Charliethewonderdog]

Huh? Okay, you've lost me. And tell me how advertising is going to help here? They're not trying to "get one over us". They're trying to run their business. Nothing more. Get over it. If you have an issue with it, put your price up and stick it to them in the wallets.

Why cant we lobby the government through public opinion so as to stop them from getting a free ride re: overseas workers and pilot loans that out TAXes pay for

[Charliethewonderdog]

Just read your last post...
So now you want Federal or union control on how many licences are issued? Just what are we supposed to be advertising??? Yep! That'll be bound to garner support from the public.



Not at all, but I would like to see the industry be able to support the pilots it has now, so pilots DONT have to move over seas and we dont have imported pilots. Is that too much to ask for.

It seems you are happy to see every pilot in Australia leave for overseas and you would be confortable sitting in a VB or J* seat being piloted by an imported pilot.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

It seems you are happy to see every pilot in Australia leave for overseas and you would be confortable sitting in a VB or J* seat being piloted by an imported pilot

What's wrong with an 'imported' pilot if they meet the requirements?

The only thing that an ad like you are suggesting would do would be to make the flying public think "So let me get this right, I can save $5 a ticket?"

[Charliethewonderdog]

The only thing that an ad like you are suggesting would do would be to make the flying public think "So let me get this right, I can save $5 a ticket?"


Ok give them the aussie piloted plane or a $5 dollar cash back if they fly the non aussie piloted plain.

Small price to pay for the worlds safest skies.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

So you are saying that non-Australian pilots are less safe? Are British pilots less safe? Are US Pilots less safe?

On the pricing, what you are saying is that increasing ticket prices by $5 overnight would have no effect on profit. Why don't all the airlines just increase prices $5 and pocket the money?

[Charliethewonderdog]

So you are saying that non-Australian pilots are less safe? Are British pilots less safe? Are US Pilots less safe?
Why would a British pilot or US pilot move to Australia FOR LESS MONEY????:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:


On the pricing, what you are saying is that increasing ticket prices by $5 overnight would have no effect on profit. Why don't all the airlines just increase prices $5 and pocket the money?


I can't answer that one...... but the monkeys runnig most Airlines would probably pocket the money and park planes up against the fence rather than admidt they were wrong.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Why would a British pilot or US pilot move to Australia FOR LESS MONEY????

That's not what I asked. You said that paying extra for Australian pilots was worth it for safe skies. You imply that foreign pilots are not safe.

What foreign pilots specifically are you talking about if you are saying British and American pilots wouldn't work here?


I can't answer that one...... but the monkeys runnig most Airlines would probably pocket the money and park planes up against the fence rather than admidt they were wrong. I don't agree!

[Charliethewonderdog]

What foreign pilots specifically are you talking about if you are saying British and American pilots wouldn't work here?

Pilots from countries that dont have hour safety record, like south east Asian countries, South America, Africa, etc.... sure they might pass all our testing ec.. and be qualified but they dont came from a place that has our standards.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

surely that implies a problem with our flight testing.

[Charliethewonderdog]

surely that implies a problem with our flight testing. I'm sure they can pass the tests, it's keeping to our standards which is the problem.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

So the problem is that the testing performed once they are flying for an airline is too lax?

[Charliethewonderdog]

So the problem is that the testing performed once they are flying for an airline is too lax?

Mate we have the safest skies in the world, the pilots we will attract will came from countries with extremly poor safety records, because pilots from the US, England, europe are not going to move here for a paycut.
If you concentrated on the

So I ask you, do you want to pay for safe skies, if that means upping the pay for Aussie pilots?

What would you prefer????? Two highly skilled Aussie pilots??? or imorted pilots???
Why do you think Aussie pilots are sought after over seas??? and given jobs over anyone from these poorer countries????? How many Brazillian pilots work for Cathay???


You can let supply and demand go so far but when you start reducing standards then thats when you go too far and are a playing a dangerous game.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I'd prefer two pilots who meet the standards. Full stop / Period!

Either someone meets the standard or they don't. It doesn't matter if they were born in Aus, NZ, US, Brazil or Chad (or trained).

Either we have a standard or we don't. To make the public believe otherwise is disingenuinous.

Import pilots in the right numbers to keep the economy ticking along.

[QFinsider]

let's import a public service too...As they say walk the walk

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Feel Free. I'm not a public servant, I'm a pilot in the RAAF. Import a military if you like though.

[Charliethewonderdog]

I'd prefer two pilots who meet the standards. Full stop / Period!

Either someone meets the standard or they don't. It doesn't matter if they were born in Aus, NZ, US, Brazil or Chad (or trained).

Either we have a standard or we don't. To make the public believe otherwise is disingenuinous.

Import pilots in the right numbers to keep the economy ticking along.

I have an Idea, lets just move VB over seas where it must be more proftitable and import 1 2 go, or garuda. We could have the price of tickets again and every one can go flying every week end?????

Do you want our standards to drop???? yes or no

There is a reason why our aerolanes dont fall out of the sky and theirs do??? why would you want this to change.

Would you rather see 200 dead people then pay an extra $5 a seat???? we are talking about lives aren't we???

You my friend are a twit, and a dangerous twit.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

There is a reason why our aerolanes dont fall out of the sky and theirs do??? why would you want this to change.
Would you rather see 200 dead people then pay an extra $5 a seat???? we are talking about lives aren't we???
You my friend are a twit, and a dangerous twit.
I fail to see your safety justification against someone trained / born overseas. If they pass the same test there should be no problem. If it is a problem you should be raising the issue with authorities saying that the tests are substandard.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Feel Free. I'm not a public servant, I'm a pilot in the RAAF. Import a military if you like though.

So who do you serve then if it's not the public???? Oh I forgot the war on terror, hang on not's the war in afganistan, or could it be that war for oil in Iraq.

You my friend are a TWIT. Our taxes are paying you, you prick. I hope your job gets replaced by unmanned planes soon.

[Charliethewonderdog]

I fail to see your safety justification against someone trained / born overseas. If they pass the same test there should be no problem. If it is a problem you should be raising the issue with authorities saying that the tests are substandard.
Oh lets let CASA have some responsibilty....... what dream world are you from. CASA dont care...... until they have 200 dead bodies.

It's called lowering the standards, so they can pass and pilot the aircraft so the planes are not parked up against the fence.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

ok so the real problem is that you think CASA aren't enforcing standards? The old thing of keep asking questions and you get to the bottom of the problem.

Although I think QFInsider had some advice on the issue of CASA. Import CASA guys.

[4PW's]

PAF isn't a pilot in the RAAF.

Let's get that straight.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

PAF is a pilot in the RAAF. I think I would know. If you are correct you should probably contact the Air Force and get them to cut off my pay. :rolleyes:
Got that straight 4PW.
So how many years you been at Cathay??
Your quote on the core matter from a few years ago:
You're an idiot Foreign Worker.

[4PW's]

Sorry, we did check.

No PAF in the RAAF.

Not by pseudonym or his real name.

Gosh, gonna be hard explaining that one, CJ.