Crew Shortage [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

The Management

25th Oct 2007, 02:02

Captains will be asked to use discretion either before the flight or when they sign on. Most will do it, why do you ask? Out of fear of course.

First Officers will be taken off the Europe flights to crew those flights to North America leaving the 3-man operation to Europe. Thanks for your help and your names have been noted when it comes to upgrade assessments

Most of those flights will operate 3-man crew paving the way for our new AFTL’s. We wish to thank each and every Captain on these and other flight for helping us with this task. Your names have been duly noted.

Thank you from the Top of My Bonus.

The Management

Yes you are being watched. Just like the Emirates road show.

Jose Jimenez

25th Oct 2007, 04:22

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/10/24/218874/scarce-resources-regional-analysis.html

You guys in Hong Kong are never going to stand up and put your jobs on the line for a better contract.

Wait 'til CX on-shores in the USA. What's that guy's name, Tom Wychor, the union militant, enlisted by ALPA to mount a national drive...?

We'll see...:)

jed_thrust

25th Oct 2007, 08:59

Here's another way that CC get to solve their problem (at our cost, in time, in reduced wages and poorer conditions):
FO in Europe accidentally answers the phone in the morning on (say) Monday and agrees/gets talked into/gets intimidated into operating on Tuesday. He likes this because his published roster had him operating on the Monday, which is why he didn't worry too much about picking up the phone. "Cool", he thinks: extra day at home.
The rest of the original crew (now down to 3-men) turn up to work on Monday afternoon to find a message from CC that says: "So sorry Captain, your FO has called in sick, roster disruption, blah, blah, must operate 3-man to HKG".
He duly does this and this is how CC wins another round! (The only other available FO for Tueday's flight was into severe overtime).
DO NOT ANSWER THE PHONE! BREAK THE HABIT!:=

ChairmanBoysClub

26th Oct 2007, 04:32

Yes that is how it works.
I hope evidence is being collected to prove this fact. I do belive that if this can be proven then CX might get contacted by the CAD. Its simply and illigal rostering practice. Lets nail them! :ok:

The Management

26th Oct 2007, 05:23

Evidence.

The GMA operates with the CAD's Condonance.

The GMA is a very good servant, he does what he is told and does it effectively. Most importantly he is feared by all pilots and when he speaks it is scripture. It is never challenged by any pilot or your AOA. The AOA fears him the most.

The CAD really has no say in this matter, they do what they are told by their boss which gets told by Swire. This is all done at the Hong Kong Club over a bottle of cognac. You are so naïve.

So go and collect your evidence, it makes for good recycling.

Your AOA is only good at collecting dust and they do what they are told.

Here's to my bonus.

The Management

cpdude

26th Oct 2007, 05:50

The GMA operates with the CAD's Condonance

So you agree that the GMA is committing an offense. Sooner or later rules do finally get enforced!:}

Jose Jimenez

26th Oct 2007, 05:59

Only the court of public opinion has power... All government, big business, and, especially, colonial "trading companies" are in bed with one another. Get real.

ChairmanBoysClub

27th Oct 2007, 05:14

Evidence is being collected. If the CAD will not deal with it. Maybe the public will. Who cares about the GMA? :ok:

FlexibleResponse

29th Oct 2007, 14:25

I found this kind of interesting...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=298144

Mr. Bloggs

30th Oct 2007, 02:41

What was the Captain doing:
quote
... had been working more than 13 hours when the accident took place and had also exceeded maximum duty several times in the days preceding the crash.
unquote.

I also speak as someone that allowed himself to be worked on several occasions for 24hr duty + and 16hrs of flight (and I realise there are many that have, and continue to do so) with a freight operation.

And it caught up with me in the end.

So, if any folks are reading this; yes you might be able to handle it. Yes, others might frequently get away with it. Have a 2 minute think about the possible consequences.

I believe the Cathay Captains believe they are immune to this kind of stuff.:ugh:

Think about the consequences if something happens, surely the GMA will not come to your rescue after using discretion. The Captain will wear it all as he is the one that used discretion, not the GMA.:sad:

After the accident the GMA will state; “The Captain had the option not to continue the duty, request extra crew but choose to use his discretion” yada, yada yada……………..:mad::mad:

Me thinks the CX Captains don’t have the ba11s not to go into discretion. It’s that fear thingy again.:=:ugh:

The Management

30th Oct 2007, 07:07

And the public will do what?

They know you are million dollar morons; our PR team has made sure of that.

What’s next, contract compliance, don’t answer your phone, don’t fly the freighter, don’t use discretion, don’t look at crew direct, etc. Not sure what world you are living in. Pilots are very fearful of their jobs and upgrades.

The young pilots are so naïve and the older ones are scared. None of the above will ever happen.

Put in on your Christmas list to Santa.

Here is to my huge bonus again this year, it keeps getting better.

The Management

Jose Jimenez

30th Oct 2007, 07:29

I must say, although most of your posts, Management, are quite articulate and "well-founded," this one is a piece of crap.

crewsunite

30th Oct 2007, 07:43

I was in Lon rescently and CC called my Rm phone & mobile in the middle of the night. I listened to the msg.
It said ' Call us back immediately we have an urgent msg for you'
I immediately hung up the phone & called my wife to see if she was ok.
(Yes- she's was fine. The buggers were playing tricks told her not to talk to CC nor did i phone back)

Nxt moring (After tossing & turning trying to get back to sleep. :mad: hating being woken up) at pickup was glad to see all crew there.
They had all experienced the same call - CX begging them to call back.
The SO had answered his mobile not knowing how its was. After listening about a shortage on a B744F crew in Malan italy to India. He told them they'd being drinking & so had he and said good bye.

The other two pilots also told them to shove it! :p

Can u imagine !! They would have then flown HKG with 3 Crew.

& Bye they way I flew one of those above flights & a replacement crew who was called by CC had made some neg with CC.
I mean please what is this? Everone for himself neg for each flight. Leaving all ur junk for us on Res etc.. You got to be f...:oh: i'll rather keep quite.

Come Guys this is our only weapon! Don't let CC srew u.

And always take an extra 2 Tons of fuel. THe vis (polution) in HK sucks in the winter u might not see the Rwy etc.. :yuk:

Buttie Box

30th Oct 2007, 12:08

...which leads nicely back to a previous post. What, if any, was the outcome of the recent chat with the CAD re going 3-man ULH?

The Management

30th Oct 2007, 13:08

It is Legal! Look at your FTL's.

To my bonus.

The Management.

asianeagle

31st Oct 2007, 14:07

Just been called by CC using a non standard number but still with 2747 prefix, unfortunately for them its an O day for me and I forgot to call back. (my wife mistakenly answered, so I had to make an adjustment:=)
No doubt it will ring again tomorrow, is there a crew shortage?????:}

Apple Tree Yard

3rd Nov 2007, 00:56

see the article in todays SCMP regarding KA crewing...! .....noooo, no problem at all...!!!

arse

5th Nov 2007, 02:14

Both FOs on a recent North American flight, return to HKG looking forward to a few days off (Os and Gs) but are asked to operate long haul the next day! One was to Europe and the other back to NA! Both declined!

Can you legally go from NA and then to Europe the next day?

The Management

5th Nov 2007, 03:54

Whether it is legal or not, our interpretation of the AFTL’s is ours and ours alone. We interpert the AFTL’s to work for us, not you.

You do what we tell you, if not, we will terminate your contract and you know it. AFTL’s are for guidance only. The GMA and the Head of Scheduling had sat down and worked very hard on their own interpretation of the AFTL’s and that is how it works.

Do your really believe that any pilot will question the legality of what crew control tell them? Very few and we know who they are, we are keeping notes.

Enjoy your new COS and here’s to my bonus.

The Management

Westcoastcapt

5th Nov 2007, 05:36

Good evening,

Crew Control will not, and cannot, force you to undertake a duty that is illegal. What they will do, is ask you to undertake a duty, and if you accept it, you are now accepting the responsibility of whether it is in fact legal. If it is not, and there is an incident, you are the one that is liable.

Of course, there may instances where it simply involves different interpretations of a rule. In that case. just submit a CHIRP to Corporate Safety so it is on file.

The best thing to do if you have any concerns is state to the controller, "Is this duty legal". Remember the date and time of the call. The conversation is always recorded on tape and it now makes the controller accountable. If there is any question of legality at all, they will state they will call you back.

I speak from experience.

Regards.

NewEssO

5th Nov 2007, 06:01

In the case where the rostering department is asking for something that is NOT illegal, and it is to a pilot's personal advantage (for example, asking a pilot to fly to his LHR where he's originally from). Seems like that it is something that's frown upon by other fellow pilot. Is this a common situation? How do you gents and ladies handle it? Sounds like this will be a sensitive issue.

Also, what is O day and G days? I sincerely hope that they are simply non-flying days and is not requested holidays. Otherwise it seems quite senseless to request for crew to fly on their personal time.

jtr

5th Nov 2007, 07:04

The best thing to do if you have any concerns is state to the controller, "Is this duty legal".
Actually Westcoastcapt, I disagree, the best thing to do is...

DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE

followed closely by...

DON'T WORK ON G DAYS

:ugh:http://www.ajarnforum.net/vb/images/smilies/soapbox.gif

The Management

5th Nov 2007, 07:08

The Legality is open to interpretation and it’s OUR interpretation that counts, not yours. If you do not accept a duty that we believe is legal, it will be put down as a missed duty and you will bear the consequences. Try it; we are looking to make an example out of someone.

Most pilots are unsure about the AFTL’s and it is very easy to persuade someone when they are unsure. Very few pilots have the nerve for confrontation whether it is legal or not.

The recording of crew control is their for OUR protection, not yours. If it can be used against us, the tapes will be misplaced. We have done this before

As I have said, CHIRP reports stop at corporate safety and go no further. If there is an incident, certain reports will disappear. Not many will have the courage to write a CHIRP. There is no such thing as confidentiality in The Cathay Pacific Group and the pilots know this.

We have built in accountability blocks to protect the people that need be. Yes the crew controller will be considered acting on his or her own (not on behest of the company) and will bear the accountability if there is an accident or incident however minor it may be, very similar to your own Commanders Discretion. Discretion is there to bear all the responsibility to the pilot and shield the company.

Our GMA is very good at keeping the CAD in the dark on our AFTL’s and our Rostering Practices. As far as the CAD is concerned in most cases, they will turn a blind eye.

As I have said before, You will do what you are told. You have no protection from your AOA and you know it, the AOA know it, and of course we know it. We will do what we want.

Most think the CAD have to power to make us change, nothing can be further from the truth.

In some cases the CAD is oblivious to what is actually happening, which means the GMA is doing a very good job.

Here is to my bonus.

The Management

HKJunkie

5th Nov 2007, 12:11

Dear Mgmt. OH Please will you stop with the "here's to my bonus" I mean Jeez. You make some good points then blow it with this standard ending.

EXEZY

5th Nov 2007, 12:17

I wouldn't bother, he feeds off statements like that.:ugh:

Cider30

5th Nov 2007, 12:30

Westcoastcapt

The best thing to do if you have any concerns is state to the controller, "Is this duty legal". Remember the date and time of the call. The conversation is always recorded on tape and it now makes the controller accountable. If there is any question of legality at all, they will state they will call you back.

The very best thing is for you to call CC back. CC have called from a non-recorded phone, a technique used when their request might be bending the AFTLS. That way your conversation is not recorded.

Bottom line, if YOU want something on file, hang up and call them back.

cider30

willnotcomply

5th Nov 2007, 12:47

DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE
DON'T WORK ON G DAYS

Loopdeloop

5th Nov 2007, 12:56

.....or record the 'phone call yourself. Most mobile 'phones have a record function once a call is in progress. They only have a mobile number for me and I record all calls from cc for my own protection.
I understand and agree with don't answer the 'phone and don't work on G days but sometimes it's unavoidable so either record the call or say "yes, happy to help out if it's legal, please fax me the details" They won't put it in black and white unless it's legal.

jtr

5th Nov 2007, 13:09

I understand and agree with don't answer the 'phone and don't work on G days but sometimes it's unavoidable

How so? The "G" bit in GDO means GUARANTEED, and the "O" bit in GDO means OFF, not working, not answering the phone, not pulling them out of the shiite, not screwing your colleague on reserve out of overtime pay. OFF.
:hmm:

mariaphs

6th Nov 2007, 04:30

When is the AOA going to formalise some sort of action against CX?

Not answering phones and not working on GDOs is a start, but it needs to be formally endorsed by the only union representation you guys have, whether you are members or not.

Otherwise, as the crewing situation begins to deteriorate you will end up with the living hell of KA - no stability and no life.

The Management

6th Nov 2007, 06:06

The AOA Leadership know better. If you start any kind of industrial action, we will sacrifice some members of the HKAOA. It is that simple.

We have the biggest stick and you know very well we will use it without hesitation. We have told your AOA what we will do, privately of course. Very simple to find a reason to have some terminated.

Not working in the best interest of The Cathay Pacific Group ie. Not working on a G day, not flying the freighter, difficult to be contactable, not using discretion to name a few.

If some would like to take action, your army of one as some of you like to say, you do so at your own risk. You have be warned. The HKAOA, CAD or the Hong Kong Labor Board will not protect you. We do what we want.

So your AOA is being quiet for a reason, The Cathay Pacific Group told them so.

Cathay Pacific will never be short of crews, we offer one of the best packages in Asia and the new COS 08 will be better for new hires on a base. We have many applications to join The Cathay Pacific Group and have the Training Team in place to train these new hires, thanks to COS 08.

The Cathay Pacific Division of The Cathay Pacific Group will never be allowed to deteriorate to the state of The Dragonair Division. We would have terminated contracts well before it deteriorated so badly.

We have seconded our team to The Dragonair Division to sort out the crewing problem, it not actually a crewing problem, it's a discipline problem that the Managers of The Dragonair Division allowed to spiral out of control. We will have control of the pilots in the very near future.

We don't mind starting over with The Dragonair Division and then build it with an Industrial Disciplined workforce. It is small enough to do, we will wait and see. The main part is we have The Dragonair Divisions AOC which is what we need. It is very easy to turn The Dragonair Division into Cxpress and The Cathay Pacific Division will take over all other flying . We will wet lease The Cathay Pacific Divisions aircraft to continue the flying. It is something that is being looked at. It's all about long term business solutions, sometimes we will have to endure short term pain.

Please formalize Industrial Action, you have been warned.

To my bonus, COS 08 will do very nicely for my bonus.

The Management

Buttie Box

6th Nov 2007, 08:00

For...

"...build it with an Industrial Disciplined workforce..."

read

"...local guys"

Arfur Dent

6th Nov 2007, 11:12

At the risk of causing The Management to break into a smile, I have to say we should treat his words with some respect - whoever he/she is. Those of us who have been here a long time have seen this 'Management attitude' bear fruit for Cathay. What attitude? Try this:-

Stop even trying to be the 'friend' of aircrew. They are spineless and self-interested. They do not have a common cause and fight amongst themselves at the slightest opportunity. They threaten constantly and don't do anything. When alone and forced to stand up against huge commercial pressure (ie to extend a FDP) they inevitably fold. They will do as they are told. WE interpret the rules and we control the AOA and CAD so where's the fight coming from?? WE have an airline to run and will do so with the best aircraft and the cheapest crews.So what if the odd moron goes elsewhere - SO WHAT!! There are many more just waiting in the wings.

Now - dear Fleet Manager - any other points?

Ring a bell?

Fly747

6th Nov 2007, 12:04

And Then, can't think of many who have had 100 let alone 200hrs before leaving. The Oasis requirement is to have done just three take-offs and landings on the -400!
I would agree that similar problems for CX cannot be far behind the KA exodus. If CX are smart, and they are, then RH has to learn pretty quick how to stop the rot. He might just be in time.
KA can patently not man the 744, and flight cancellations on the 'bus are increasing. Hundreds of million of dollars worth of jets are being parked up, this has been hidden from the new masters and heads are just starting to roll. CX didn't keep a close eye on its new investment and is regretting it.
Likely outcomes include the 744s painted green and the freighter pilots offered joining CX at the bottom along with ASL or transfer to the 'bus. Boeing managers will be re-typed back onto the 'bus and told to get out there and fly. Numbers of Airbus managers will be reduced and they will go fly too.
No plan will work unless rostering and pay is seriously addressed.

Numero Crunchero

6th Nov 2007, 12:56

Last I checked there were 25 gaps on the seniority list at FO/SO level. This would indicate only those that have left since the last Seniority List update, not any that have currently given notice to leave but still employed by CX.

crewsunite

7th Nov 2007, 02:47

Just heard from a reliable source that a remodeled B744F due back shortly from Xiamen has painting problem! :confused:

They don't know what colour to paint it. It was originally due for KA. But they cannot crew it. So it was offered to CX who also turned it down saying they cannot crew it. :D

The end result is they are going to paint it white & lease it out another carrier.. :ugh:

Well down PW at CX & the boys at KA.. No wonder Cargo is behind on estimates. . :rolleyes:

Simple solution, get out your cheque book boys!
Sorry I forgot that's not the 'Swire way'. Rather bleed millions lost in revenue & milk those pilots :{

Sir Adrian - Can we please have your authorisation to sort out some of these issues.

When you have time old boy it’s not that urgent at the moment. :hmm:

NewEssO

7th Nov 2007, 06:34

god damn it why are they treating pilots so poorly when they are in such a struggle finding crew???? :yuk:

Glass Half Empty

7th Nov 2007, 06:54

Sir Adrian was known as a straight talker who could communicate on the level with his pilot staff. Perhaps he should come out for a chat with the boys - on expenses of course.

He makes the present incumbants look amateurish in comparison.

Mr. Bloggs

7th Nov 2007, 07:10

Like he did in 1999 and 2001 old boy?:hmm:

Furthermore,

If you have a problem with Crew Control about the legality of the roster i.e. Reduction of rest, FDP periods with 3 pilots on ULH ops, Discretion, etc. Then an ASR/MOR should be filed.:ok::ok:

In the case of reduced physiological rest to normal rest, is CX informing the CAD of this in accordance with the AFTL's (section 22.5 note 5) read it? Are the pilots filing ASR/MOR's informing the CAD? Are you faxing copies to the CAD of your ASR/MOR? :ugh::=

Here are the fax numbers:
Flight Operations Office: 2362 4250
Flight Standards and Airworthiness Division 2382 4577

If the answer is no, then you have no right to complain. Don't complain to the AOA that something should be done about this if you are not willing to put pen to paper and defend yourself.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Very simple, state the facts on a hazard report, collect names, times and dates. Tick the box on the bottom to send it in as a MOR.:ok:

Somehow, I think that fear thingy will rear its ugly head.:oh:

Sad really.:(

cxhk

7th Nov 2007, 17:17

And the public will do what?

They know you are million dollar morons; our PR team has made sure of that.

........

The Management

Hahahaha... this is awesome... this is so true... AOA lost all of their fight (all of their previous one anyway) before their fight even started. I think AOA should just budget 80% of their income into advertising against CX PR team and make friends with local press. Only then the public opinion battle will be on the pilot side. Only then will Cathay has to back down and offer better package. So everyone in AOA should just wake up from their dreams, this is HK mate, the press makes the decision on everything. Even the government is scare of the press and has to back down on different issues.

TheChitterneFlyer

11th Nov 2007, 13:25

I neither fly for CX or KA, but I did escape from KA a few years ago... and very pleased that I did.

I see that Company intimidation has now reached an all time low and has spread over to the internet via PPrune. 'The Management' beggars belief... who the hell is he/she? If we are to believe that he/she is a true voice of CX management then it really is a very sad state of affairs, because to admit that they (CX) 'control' your regulatory authorities and, also says that CHIRP reports go no further than Corporate safety level is a real concern to public safety. I have to agree that the FTL document does stink, because it clearly states that the Company will have the final say in these matters (and their own interpretation of the rules) :ugh:. In all respects, you're on a hiding to nothing, but my sympathies certainly don't err on the management side of the fence. 'The Management' states that they will be absolved of all responsibility when it comes down to an aircraft incident/accident, because, just like a Commanders Discretion report, or a CC making his/her own decision, it has absolved them (CX) of the accountability of errors; therefore culminating in the Commander (or any other poor soul) taking the 'hit' for the error of judgement. Good CRM doesn't stop at the flight deck door; it's a team effort all the way to the top of the Corporate ladder.

If we are to believe that 'The Management' and his 'f:mad:g' bonus are for real; start compiling his/her posts into a 'pending' file for presentation to the accident investigation team, because I'd like to see him/her in court to be held 'accountable' for being the AOC holder.

You call yourself a 'manager'? You're a danger to public safety! Get a grip of yourself.

TCF