Thompson Engine Failure in ALC 23/10

[ggpmw]

We departed just before TOM022M tonight out of Alicante and on handover after T/O heard the PAN PAN call from the Thompson 757 due Engine Failure. They held for a while before going proceeding to the ALT for the ILS Y.
Assume everyone one ok, things appeared under control - any ideas of what happened?

[enjolras]

It was G-BYAH. 230 pax plus 8 crew. Eng #2 on fire and according to a ground engy "destroyed as never seen before". Looks like some engine part was ingested. Small report and low quality engine pics by a ground agent here:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=16072266&postcount=1961

Regards

[A and C]

Looks like another professional job by the crew, well done guys!

As to the engine the photos don't show enough detail to be sure if what happend but it seems to show damage in the jetpipe.

[GBALU53]

Well done to the crew.
Looking at the pictures what you can make out it looks like a lot of engine damage.

[Basil]

"Los motores don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring!" :)

[ggpmw]

The Pictures look interesting indeed.

One question though - and I know the usual debate -

Engine on Fire - certain vibration? why only a Pan call not Mayday? You could atleast downgrade it if wanted later on...?

Not raining on anyones parade - they got back safe - good job, just wondering though.

[blue up]

Pan? In Spain?

Isn't a recognised call in Spain, unless this years' refresher course is wrong.

Can anyone give further enlightenment?

[blue up]

Photos show No1 engine.

[Sky Wave]

GGPMW

I guess it depends when they called ATC. Assuming Aviate, Navigate then Communicate perhaps there was no vibration or fire warning when they made the call. Only a thought.

Not sure about the use of Pan Pan in spain. It's possible that the tower saw the fire so they appreciated the urgency of the situation.

SW

[ggpmw]

They called on the departure freq passing 2200'. with the Pan call. Correct, they may have had transmissions with the tower before handover, we didnt hear that part, since we departed just before them.

Avt-Ngt-Comm, sure, but I'd still want to be THE most important thing flying in that area at that time. Would be interesting to see at what stage the incident actually happened...

Good job we taxied first 'capin

[Free State Bandit]

Blue Up

After landing the chaps asked the tower that they would like the fire services to inspect the tyres, brakes and engine whilst they held clear of the runway. At this point the fire engines were still in the fire station and probably took 5 min to get to the aircraft. When they did arrive the Capt asked if there was a frequency he could use to talk to the fire services. There was a frequency but tower advised the crew to talk through him as the fire services could only speak Spanish. Later the tower apologised for not having the fire services out earlier as they had not declared an emergency although they had put out a pan call earlier.
As you said Blue Up, a Pan call would only seem to work in the Uk. If you want to be sure of the fire services put out a Mayday.

[despegue]

Pan Pan is the correct urgency-call in all EASA countries.
However, just like "Securité- Securité" its use is getting rare in many FIR's.


Good job gentlemen.

[blue up]

Despegue. Do you have a reference for Pan-pan being used everywhere in EASA? Also, I've never heard of "securite' " as a call. Can you tell me more?

I don't think there was any mention in the CAP413 published by the UK CAA, but I may be wrong. Any help would be useful since I am giving some training on a related subject this week.

Thanks

[IcePack]

Securite call used to be a yachtie vhf call in french waters if you were a hazard to navigation e.g adrift. I also did not know it had migrated to aviation, untill I heard it on 121.5 about 2 weeks ago whilst overflying france.:confused:

[Doctor Cruces]

When I did my ATC course way back in 197longtimeago, I was taught that the "securite" call could be made by anyone wishing to do a general broadcast for something afffecting the safety of flight, such as CAT etc etc.

Doc C

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I can't access the 'skyscraper link' - It seems hidden to me!!:(

[Diddley Dee]

When London Centre transmit messages such as temporary airspace retrictions etc on 121.5 we always prefix it with securite x 3

DD

[ComJam]

"Securite, Securite" is used as the prefix to broadcasts by both london and Scottish centres on Guard when notifying aircrew of a TDA etc.

As for "Pan-Pan" I've heard it used a couple of times round Europe recently.

Back to the thread.........looks like a job well done by the crew once again.

[lomapaseo]

I can't access the pictures, can anybody help?

[Scimitar]

I can't help wondering whether the engine damage could have been caused by FOD which has been a feature of the ramp at Alicante for at least 25 years. I, and many others, have brought bagfulls home over the years and sent them off to our Flight Safety department. Not a great deal was ever achieved. The areas around the hold doors always seemed to have broken bits from suitcases, some solid and robust like padlocks. We shall just have to wait and see what is found when they strip down what is left of the engine.

[206cc_jim]

Oh and is Thomson without the P :}

[Mr @ Spotty M]

It was the No.1 engine and l was told it was a turn back due to a surge (Damage to LP).
If it is anything like the one we had, our one surged resulting in blades bending forward which gives results like you had taken in FOD.
In this case the FOD is the rotating blades hitting each other and results in parts of the blades going deeper into the engine.:{

[miles offtarget]

The FOD at AGP, BCN and ALC is appalling, and I suspect only marginally better at MJV because they handle fewer flights.

[hedgedweller]

Having been one of the passengers sitting on the TOM 5022 flight from Alicante hoping to land alive in Cardiff, and sitting in row 41 in the window seat on the side of the unfortunate incident, I can tell you that there was a very strong smell of aviation fuel before we began to taxi on the runway, which I failed to report to the crew and realise I would not have been taken any notice of anyway. We had just cleared the mainland and were banking to turn up Spain, I was looking out of the window when the engine exploded, there was no preliminary warning apart from the smell of aviation fuel, there was a very loud bang, with sparks, vibrations and huge flames which reached back to row 41 and aparently also could be seen out of the windows on the other side of the plane. I have to say as someone who totally enjoys the thrill of flying (DID) I thought we were going to die. Seeing the flight attendants running at top speed from the back to the front of the plane did not combat my fears.

We were told to give them instructions as to what we had seen and reopen the shutter which we had closed as we could not face what was happening and tell them what we could see so they could report to the pilot. We circled Alicante for an hour jettisoning fuel flying on only one engine, all of which when you just want to feel land beneath your feet and be as far away from a potential ball of flaming aviation fuel was far too long. On landing we were not allowed anywhere near the airport until the fire crews had checked the plane was safe and far from meeting us on landing it took ten minutes for them to get to us. We then taxied to the airport where we were told we would be kept together in a lounge for us all to recouperate and chill out until we were given further instructions. The flight took off originally at 7.20 Spanish time and we eventually were released into the departure lounge to wander aimlessly shocked and terriefied amid ordinary passengers who had no idea what had just happened, with no where for smokers to have the much needed intake of nicotine and no offer of a cup of tea from Thompson and no Thomson staff in site for at least fifteen minutes. They had no real instruction on how to deal with us and on passengers asking them for instructions we were all told to just find somewhere to sit and chill out!!

At 10.30 on the notice board normally used for telling passengers when to board a notice appeared telling us that flight TOM5022 was to be served dinner, it did not say where, but the queue of 230 passengers so glad to be alive they just followed instruction without question told us where!

The Captain spoke to a few people at the tables whilst he queued for his plate of complimentary chips and chicken burger shapes but no formal announcement was ever made.

Again at 2.30 a notice appeared and staff came and found passengers to tell them tea and pastries were being served. Eventually at 3.30 we board another Thomson plane to take us all back to Cardiff, I have to say I vomitted three times before finally being able to get back onto a plane and the finger prints of my grip are probably still in row 40 middle seat as I have never been so afraid in my life.

I was told we should all be glad to be alive and I know that I am, but the incident was absolutely terrifying and I for one do not appreciate being told that I should be grateful to be alive, as far as I am concerned my life should not have been put at risk in the first place!!! Who is responsible for saying the plane was safe to fly? Who has made the cock up that left an engine fit to explode less than five minutes after take off? Who has the final say that all the checks have been done and the plane is safe to fly 230 passengers? Who is responsible for this incident that has left me with nightmares and flashbacks of the incident in my mind in disbelief that this has happened to me. Shocked that I could have died mid air in an explosion of aviation fuel, traumatised about flying when I have to return to Alicante on a Thompson flight only one week after the incident. WHO?

[nclops]

who has made the cock up that left an engine fit to explode 5 mins after take off?

What a stupid thing to say. Do you really think the guys up front would have taken the plane if they thought there was anything wrong with it. By the look of it there was an engine surge 5 mins after takeoff, nobody could have seen that coming. It sounds to me like you should be greatfull to the crew who did a very proffessional job of getting you back down to earth safely.

[jammydonut]

Looking for compensation perhaps :hmm:

[topjetboy]

Hedgedweller:
have you considered a career in the media? A top-class bit of drama, the red-tops would love it.

[DCS99]

Hedgedweller,

I think you're still in shock. You might need to see a Doctor, but I would suggest learning about what happened to you.

Look and listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE

That's how Aviation professionals manage an Emergency.
I'm sure your emergency was handled just as well up front.
You will see when the incident is investigated and the report is released.

Everyone in the industry whether up front or behind the scenes is committed to safety and no other industry takes safety as seriously as the Aviation business. Good design, over-design and contingency enabled you to land safely. And you will do the next time as well, I promise.

Relax, and consider that when you next drive in your car you will be putting yourself at > 10000 times more risk of dying.

I do agree about the smoking ban though - that's a bit ridiculous after you've had an Engine failure like that. :)

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Hedweller - I am not having a go, But if you were so concerned about the smell of 'fuel' why didn't you say something then??

I understand that the cabin Crew could have probably not taken it seriously, You should have gone to the No1 and spoke to her/him?

You should have 'blocked out' the 'false' chit chat that is always onboard before you take-off and made your point.

It sounds like no one else seemed all that bothered about the smell?:=

G BYAH the Aircraft involved has being flying since 1992, And this incident was a very rare one indeed.

I understand your anxiety, but 2 exp pilots sitting up front will not take risks, Are not paid to take risks with an Airliner costing millions, And dare I say it passengers lives that are not replaceable.

An Aircraft is just like a car - Anything can go wrong, The only thing is it can go very wrong in an Aircraft.:ugh:

I am not predicting, But the incident could have being caused by (FOD) foreign Object damage from the airfield or another aircraft, This is unfortunately sometimes the cause of engine Failure After Take Off.

Because it happened on take-off you cannot land straight away, And this makes the experience more terrifying, But Aircraft are designed and built to fly on one engine, Which it has done on many occasions.

I just hope that your experience does not have any long term repercussions in your travels.

Best Regards.:ok:

[TightSlot]

hedgedweller

Clearly the incident has upset you and that is highly regrettable. Probably, the most effective way of dealing with it is to permit time to pass and let things work themselves out in your mind.

There are a number of emotional statements that you have made in your post (perhaps not surprisingly) that you may wish to reconsider in the future - for example, the post title includes the phrase "Flight Disaster" which, in purely factual terms, it wasn't. It is possible that the incident may repeat may not have been as serious (in terms of immediate danger to yourself) as it looked from the cabin or as you perceived it from your seat.

A large part of your post concerns events on the ground in the terminal: Clearly, in your view, things should havee been handled either better, or at least differently. I'm sure that you're correct - in retrospect, nearly everything could have been handled so and I'm sure that the airline's own investigation into the incident would address such concerns.

One final point: Notwithstanding your concerns about the fitness of the aircraft to despatch, one thing that is missing from your post is some form of recognition for the flight crew who managed successfully to land you safely: Maybe this would be a positive view to draw from the incident?

[fireflybob]

Who has made the cock up that left an engine fit to explode less than five minutes after take off?

Anything that is mechanical can fail - even the hard disk on your computer!

That is why many things on board an aircraft are duplicated or even triplicated and why crews regularly practice emergencies in the simulator.

If you expect 100% reliability then I suggest you do not board an aircraft intending to fly.

Well done to the crew - job well done!

[rotorspin]

Totally agree TightSlot - and all the other comments above....

Machines fail (rarely - but they do) its a tiny risk that us human beings take every time we leave the ground. We assess the risk and accept it.

As a rotor pilot we often rib plank pilots for autopilot careers.

However when I hear of incidents such as this, who cares about the catering, or the lack of facilities at Alicante (of which I can agree with), the pilots and crew brought you home and they should be congratulated by you rather than mocked.

As a pax you will find few shoulders to cry on in a professional pilots forum? Why post here? Looking for a good place to put your article? How about one of the housewife rag mags?

Boring - lets get away from pax emotions and get back to being a pilots forum, for pilots

[Gentle Climb]

It is obvious that your experience was not pleasant and I don't wish to downplay what happened to you, but perhaps if you take a little quiet time to reflect, you might take a more rational and considered view.
You seem very, very quick to attribute blame to somebody, whether that be flightcrew, cabin crew, ground staff or those who look after the mechanical well being of the aircraft. I totally understand that your initial reaction would be one of alarm, indeed panic and that has left you angry and seeking some form or retribution/compensation against/from an individual or company.
Now that you are 'safely' back at home, maybe you should consider re writing your post, editing out the emotive and accusatory content.
Perhaps you might like to consider the following prior to typing.
1. The aircraft is more than capable of flying on a single engine (as was demonstrated to you)
2 Had there been a genuine, imminent reason for the crew to make an immediate return, they would have done so. I would imagine that they have every intention of making it home too.
3. The prime concern of the entire crew is your safety, and this will over ride your comfort in some situations.
4. I had the misfortune to visit Alicante earlier this year. In this respect I do understand your emotional response, for I too would be shocked and traumatised if I ever had to venture back there again. I am still having nightmares and flashbacks about the place. Blackpool in the sun.

[DingerX]

On boarding, about the third of the 757's weight can be fuel, and it can smell. On long-haul flights (as a passenger, mind you -- so most of you can stop reading now if you like), I often notice a strong kerosene smell when I get on board, especially if they're fueling at the time. You're effectively standing at a petrol station with something on the order of 500 cars filling their tank.

Surges/Compressor stalls can be spectacular (my experience with them pales compared to yours. I only saw flames out of the side with the offending engine) and terrifying, but it's not an entirely uncommon experience. They and their flames have nothing to do with fuel leaks, and everything to do with airflow and the bits that spin round very fast (which is why engines are placed in thick nacelles).

The landing would have been heavy and without reverse thrust, so the brakes would have been hot. The fire department would have been standing by, but their first priority would be to check for and extinguish any possible brake fires.

Unfortunately, where the system really falls apart is how they deal with passengers after such an incident, or for that matter any incident. At every level, services have been refined to a degree where ground staff, working for the airline or for the airport, simply cannot handle satisfactorily the contingency of something as banal as the cancellation of a full narrow-body, let alone your case. Consider the number of people available at an "away" destination, what their job description, and what their training is, and frankly, there's a reason why nothing is happening fast, and nobody is telling you anything: they don't know. Logistics isn't instant; a total delay of less than 8 hours is pretty good, and they even fed you. I've seen a trainload of Eurostar passengers suffer for longer, with nothing.

We're all lucky to be alive, but an engine failure like that isn't in the realm of "near-death" experiences. It's frightening.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

I know it was a shock and not very pleasant, but the smell of fuel would have no bearing on the incident.
You will often get a smell of fuel in the cabin, l have smelt it myself, normally air brought into the cabin from an engine exhaust that is running near by.
The aircraft was not flying around for an hour while it jettisoned fuel, it can't, it is only burning fuel by the other engine.
Crew may have been getting the weight down, but more likely ensuring they have everything organised for their one engine landing.
You would not wish them to rush things and then ba**s up the landing and turn an incident into a accident would you?

[No Country Members]

Is this what they really said to you?


I was told we should all be glad to be alive and I know that I am, but the incident was absolutely terrifying and I for one do not appreciate being told that I should be grateful to be alive


If so it sounds as though ground staff did a little dramatisation of their own. As has been posted already, twin jet airliners are designed to fly on one engine in an emergency, and handled as this one, and the incident in the video, clearly were handled, engine failures should not, in themselves be aircraft killers. Additionally, from their first flight in a multi engine aircraft, and in fact in the classroom beforehand, commercial pilots are aquainted with engine failure. Such is the emphasis on powerplant failure training, students often joke about paying large sums hiring twins for lessons then flying them single engine anyway. This is just the beginning. During type training more engine failure follows (in the sim this time - but it is realistic), and it continues from there, during recurrent training.

If you are unlucky, very unlucky as a pilot, you may have to deal with engine failure for real in a twin jet, as the pilots of your aircraft did. The drills thereafter are well practiced, which you cannot hear on the video, merely the radio traffic.

That is not to say pilots are blasé about engine failure, nor can I imagine one would omit something on the ground, even if late, which would allow detection of an impending failure.

I'm not sure I agree with many of those who have condemned your post, much of what you have been told here is information not fed to passengers during a pre flight safety brief - nobody tells you not to worry unnecessarily specifically if the engine goes bang - you must have been, and clearly were, very frightened. This, in my opinion, mitigates what others are calling your melodrama - in your own mind clearly this incident was extremely dramatic.

I hope that your respect for pilots is not diminished by the attacks against your post, and that the explanations people have given you reassures you about flying as a passenger in future. Somebody above promised you that you will land again safely, and they were right.

[khawar rashid]

Well Done Guys:ok:

[miles offtarget]

Well really !

I think hedgedweller is absolutely right to be appalled, if I were him I'd make the strongest compensation claim possible against both the cabin and flight deck crew at once.

Just a suggestion,but perhaps those remarkably friendly, and genuinely altruistic legal service providers that advertise occasionally on quality AM radio stations, like the informative and educational 'Talk Sport' for instance; or pop up from time to time on such highly amusing cable stations as UK Gold, might be able to extend a hand to man let down so badly in his hour of need.

I'm no lawyer, but I think we all want to know exactly what Biggles and Algy were up to in the front all the time that this man was out on the wing, with only a window blind in his hand, trying to extinguish fifteen tonnes of JET A1. I don't know, but flying round in circles idly practising one of their 'oooooh look at me keeping the ball-in-the-middle' games I suspect.

Furthermore I understand that tea and coffee would have been served in the front office by the five minutes airborne point, and I'm sure that was not going to interrupted by any young fellah-me-lad with all sorts of stories of fireworks and heroics . It's on these seemingly irrelevant details that the lives of almost two hundred and fifty people hang by a thread.

I for one am also outraged at the cavalier and wanton disregard for punctuality displayed by the Thomson crew. Surely if the aircraft was servicable enough to land back in ALC then why on earth couldn't it have continued and made a landing at CWL ! These people, seemingly caught up in a situation not of their own making were delayed HOURS by the trivial matter of a crew not wanting to fly a 1100nm single engine transit.

Again I'm no lawyer, but I venture that the cabin crew had their eye more on a impromptu nightstop and the 'Los Inferno' nightclub on the Alicante strip than on the punctuality of the service, and of course the inferno raging in row 41.

Many many questions to be answered, a shabby piece of flying by all concerned I do hope you are ashamed with yourselves.

Remember, ' if there's first aid, then there's legal aid !'

Cheers,

MOT





(Stunning job guys, well done to all.)

[blue up]

Pretty much all aircraft stink of jet fuel when you taxy downwind to the holding point. You take off into wind and have to taxy downwind to the downwind end of the runway. With 20 knots op the chuff, there will be exhaust fumes blown back into the aircon intakes (belly of the 757)

Jettisoning fuel? AH was a 757 when I last looked (Y'know, on the night before it went to ALC, when I was driving it back from LPA) and hasn't got a jettison facility. ZFW of about 79 tons plus maybe 12 tons of juice? Might've been below max landing weight before finishing the drills.

I had an engine surge some years ago in sister-ship AN (IIRC?) and by the time this non-event reached the front page of the Daily Telegraph it had become "JET FIRE SURVIVORS GIVEN VALIUM JABS":ok:

[fireflybob]

Reminds me of coming back home as passenger from the Far East on a Boeing 747 in about 1975. We stopped at Rome before the final leg to Heathrow and as we rotated for take off there was a bang and we continued to climb out normally. A few mins after take off the Captain (Laurie Taylor of BALPA fame) came on the PA to say they had shut down number 3 and we would be cruising at 26,000 ft instead of 35,000 ft and be ten mins late into LHR due reduced cruise speed.

As a young Second Officer I thought this was very exciting and couldnt wait to witness a real engine out landing at LHR which all went according to plan, needless to say. I had been sitting on the left hand side of the cabin but the pax on the right hand side had witnessed a large sheet of flame come out the back of the No 3 engine which had surged (a very common fault on the early Jumbo engines) so were somewhat nonplussed but eventually put at ease by our flight engineer who went across to explain to them what was going on!

Years ago engine failures and technical problems were far more common and experienced passengers on the early 747s (not to mention Stratocruisers and Constellations, for example) were more used to this happening. Nowadays an engine is so rare (touchwood) that passengers find it "unusual"!

If this event had happened today I wonder how much flak the crew would have got on Pprune for actually daring to continue all that way to LHR on THREE engines!!

As they say the ideal a/c is when the engineer says "We have lost number 4", the captains asks "Which side?".

[OAB11D]

A simillar thing happened to me on BY 75 in Dec 2000 G-BYAP

The surge occured 30 secs into the flight and was (for the 10 secs or so that the banging noise lasted) very scary.

Once the noise stopped I remember thinking "well we're still in the air."
As an avid enthusaist I told myself that we were ok and was reasured by the announcement form the flight-deck.

The problem came when I tried to fly home the follwing week, I was vey nervous and stayed nervous for about a year but am ok now.

In terms of how it was handled on the ground it was ok as we retured to LGW but I would imagine how it would be diffcult to get the right staffing levels at an outstation at short notice

[lomapaseo]

The bigger the engine the more powerful the surge and flame flash. Scary as hell to the passengers but not a big deal if dealt with by the pilot (retard to clear multiple surges). However if left in a surge condition for 10 or so surges then you may end up permently breaking the engine (varies by engine model).

Many many years ago there were some engines that broke after only a single surge, but almost all engines today are designed to last out at least 10 high power surges before cashing in. That of course assumes that the engine hasn't already broke and the surge was secondary

[fortuna76]

By the way that was a pretty good video of the Manchester bird strike. They should use it on recurrent to give an idea of what is involved after you have landed. In the sim it´s usually back to the beginning of the runway, but real life is different.

[tailwheel76]

Hedgedweller, you've obviously had a worrying time and haven't coped very well with it, its understandable, the unexpected food service provided to you and 229 others in the airport sounds shocking...

As others have said all mechanical things have the chance of failing but I can guarantee the checks carried out on the aircraft you flew on would have been far more stringent than those on the car you jumped into at Cardiff and then drove home on the motorway (?) at 70mph without giving it a second thought - when was the last thorough check, up to 12 months ago?

Did you check the brakes worked, pads, shoes and lines ok? How about the engine, every moving part checked? And the fuel system all ok, no leaks or rubbing hoses? Hopefully the seat belts? I suppose you thought how you'd deal with a puncture at 70mph? Or a fire on the back seat? Was your passenger alert to any risks and dangers to help you out in a tricky situation? etc etc. Probably not, you may have just endangered countless of individuals on your way home due to your lack of attention - shocking, what a cock up that would have been.

Get over yourself, I'm far safer in the air than on a motorway with yours and everyone elses unsafe vehicles - how dare you all endanger me!

Educate yourself before making such ridiculous posts. Good luck with the claim.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Sounds like the crew did a good job.

Hedgedweller that post was really exciting, how much £££ are you going for? You'll need to change much of your post as some of it isn't true.

[Terraplaneblues]

With 20 knots op the chuff, there will be exhaust fumes blown back into the aircon intakes (belly of the 757)

Incorrect, any smell entering the ram air ducting is exhausted from the ram air exhaust and never enters the cabin. However any smell entering the engine intake may indeed make it's way into the cabin, fully understand what was being eluded to though.

Hedgedweller IMHO should be asking why the engine failed, a report will hopefully be in the public domain eventually.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

How do you make that out "Terraplaneblues", are you saying all air that enters the ram air ducts goes out the exhaust of the ram air duct?

[Terraplaneblues]

Yes. the ram air cools (and reheats) the pneumatic supply air, at air to air heat exchangers, but doesn't mix - not me - Boeing.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Thanks for the reply "Terraplaneblues".

[blue up]

Me bad! I think we all know where I was going with it but I failed to fink it through. A mix of standard 757 Oil smell plus the fumes blown back into the intake and passed though the packs.
Thanks, chaps.

[Donnie Brascoe]

And the joy is that this 6 months LPC/OPC companywide are engine failures in and out of Alicante and Valencia, is somebody in the training dept telepathic ???

[The Invisible Man]

Hedgedweller,
First of all, I'm sorry for the trauma you have gone through. Secondly, if you are looking for someone to blame, it could have been me! I have over many years , changed numerous components both on engine and airframe of that particular aircraft. I can assure you that all Professional Aircraft Engineers take your safety as paramount. If it isn't safe to fly, it doesn't! Simple as that.
Just to confirm 757 do not have fuel jettison option.
If you want to ask anymore questions please Pm me.
Well done to the crew.

[misd-agin]

757's with RR engines frequently have a fuel smell in the cabin after engine start. (11+ yrs experience 1990-2007)

Occasionally the F/A's call but by now they realize it's a temporary issue.

[Yaw String]

I think what our passenger hedgedweller has said should maybe be taken in another light.
When the passengers are scared they need information....without this information many of them, especially on a schedule service, will decide not to fly...and consequently demand their bags offloaded.
The post handling of an "event" can have a huge effect on the passengers will to try again.
I have found that a good post event explanation, either on-board or, in the terminal afterwards is really an important follow-up action. Also,leaving some cabin staff with the passengers, in the terminal, makes them feel that they have not been abandoned, and frequent updates, even if nothing has changed,will endear them to you and your company. It is possible to turn a potentially negative event into positive publicity for the company if handled like this.But....be honest
Hedgedweller, are you declaring that your captain did not communicate with you, because, if you are, I find that very hard to believe?
Packs off departures are also responsible for fumes entering the cabin,extra noise from the door seals due to the unpressurized status. I always wonder if it is worth explaining to pax before take-off in this case although never have so far.:ok:

[Arrowhead]

I think most of you are all taking this far too personally. Passenger expects normal flight. Passenger gets huge flames streaking outside his window, and fears the worst because this doesnt happen very often, its clearly not right, and probably the only pictures of aeroplanes hes ever seen after a fire include large holes. Hes doing over a couple of hundred miles per hour strapped to something on fire, carrying tonnes more fuel, and up in the air. I am not surprised that after the event he is upset and wants to know the cause, and who to blame. Engines dont "just occasionally blow up", and he has a right to some sympathy and some answers.

Indeed, there may be someone to blame, as there has been in most aviation accidents. Then again there may not. But thats no reason to attack him.

[Gipsy Queen]

"Indeed, there may be someone to blame, as there has been in most aviation accidents. Then again there may not. But thats no reason to attack him."

Probably not. But had hedgedweller been a little more mature and a little less intemperate in his original post, he might have received a more positive response.

Nevertheless, it is clear that he and, presumably, the other passengers on the same flight had been badly let down; essentially by the ground people it would seem. The lack of adequate explanation of what had transpired has engendered a loss of his confidence in air travel - hardly to be wondered at. Perhaps the foregoing technical observations have gone some way to restoring some of this lost confidence in what is the safest form of transport.

That the flight crew handled the situation well is not disputed. But might it not have been a good idea if, after landing, the Captain gave a brief, non-technical explanation of events over the PA and then went back for a "personal appearance" before pax hit the jetway? This sort of PR is invaluable and it might have provided considerable reassurance to hedgedweller and the others.

GQ.

[blue up]

Depends on company policy. May not be PERMITTED to discuss such probs with pax without prior permission.
Also, pax may well be offloaded and in the terminal before FD have had their last call to Ops etc. After all, the FD wouldn't have known for sure what had happened to the engine until they'd been downstairs for a look.

BTDT

[Gipsy Queen]

"Depends on company policy. May not be PERMITTED to discuss such probs with pax without prior permission.
Also, pax may well be offloaded and in the terminal before FD have had their last call to Ops etc. After all, the FD wouldn't have known for sure what had happened to the engine until they'd been downstairs for a look."

I expect you're right, blue up. I was just thinking aloud which is always an unwise thing to do. :ugh:

GQ.

[blue up]

No prob.

I was speaking from personal experience of the EXACT same scenario after I had a left engine multiple surge in one of the sister 757s some years ago. I got down the steps to find the cowls opened by a local eng and the fire crew. After getting a good (ex eng) eye of the lack of damage I returned to the FD and got involved in about 40 minutes of phone calls.

Once on the ground and off the plane the pax are in the hands of the local handling agent and maybe a few company holiday reps who may have zero experience of handling such events.

[britannialad]

Come on you cant just post ! and not reply to all these nice people who have taken the time to reply to you!

[leeleal]

Hi there,
As an atc working in Alicante, I would like to point a few things out. Although I work in the twr and the event was first reported when airborne on app frequency, we followed closely the situation and coordinated tightly until the plane was transfered back on final.
The PAN PAN call is perfectly recognised in Spain, although it is considered as a request for priority (normally for medical reasons, short of fuel or any other situation that implies a safe flight but with a real need of a hurry). Thus if that was the call the crew made, that´s what they were given: priority. The aircraft never declared emergency and that´s why the service given once landed seemed to be deficient. It takes a while to move any special airport resources if there is no clear emergency call from the tower, aircraft or any other recognised source. Believe me, the ATC thought it was a simple engine failure with barely any risk (at least that´s what the serene captian´s voice suggested) until the fire crew reported how they found the engine.
However, I do not want you to think I´m blaming the crew. I positively believe they did a really great job and that they wouldn´t have hesitated to request any other help they thougt necessary. I´m just trying to explain how things worked out. Since I really think I learn a lot from reading all your posts on what really happened, I thought some of you would like to know how it all went from the other side.
By the way, of course I know there is still plenty of room for improvement in our airport (as in many other places), but I firmly believe we are doing a good job.

Hasta luego.

[Fredairstair]

if the last posting is really from someone who works in ALC twr.....

That is the single most interesting comment I've ever read on this site. Thanks/Gracias

Fred (soon to practice a panicky RT voice)

[tightcircuit]

The message is clear; Mayday first and then downgrade to a Pan when everything is under control. This should work anywhere in the world.

[hedgedweller]

Thank you Arrowhead for one of the very few responses that did not make me feel worse than I already did. Exactly that which you have said, as a paying customer of the airline I expect, hope, truly believe that the engine should not explode under any circumstance whilst I am on the plane. I read the replies to my posting and cried!!! For all your responses can I firstly state that I am not MAN but WOMAN, maybe that in itself explains my emotional response to flames and sparks exploding from the engine at my side. Sorry it took so long to reply, but your remarks really did upset me. I have never the less flown on a monthly basis with Thomsonfly inspite of your cruel remarks. Just glad I wasn't on the BA plane that landed almost on the runway in London this week. No I wasn't bothered by the food in Alicante, just the way we were all treated after the event, during the event and the fact that the plane exploded by my ear - hopefully never to be repeated!! See you all again at the Blackpool in Spain Alicante as one reply put it and hopefully have a safe landing in Cardiff. I notice there is a thumb smiley, but not a finger!!!

[StopStart]

You just have to know where to look...

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/smiley-faces-83.gif

Sounds like you weren't treated very well in Alicante but then one does get what one pays for I suppose. As for your concern about engines blowing up in your ear, the only way avoid similar things happening in the future is never use anything mechanical ever again :)

[hedgedweller]

Thanks - the treatment of passengers NOT at Alicante but on the plane and on this forum begins and ends in style - thanks for showing me the way and the finger - I obviously didn't look hard enough or know where to look for anything!!!

[hec7or]

Well done for using this site to find out what went wrong.

Hopefully the company will have also explained things to you and you should now have a better picture of what occurred.

Believe it or not, pilot's don't actually get a lot of training in passenger handling and we only train with our own cabin crew once in a blue moon so it is very unlikely that we will be able to keep everyone happy and informed about a situation which does not go according to plan!

Every person on board an aircraft experiencing a technical problem will have a different perception of what is actually happening based on the information available to them and the best we can do is try to keep everyone as fully informed as we can.

Unfortunately not everybody will respond to the same information in the same way. Not all of the people on board will have seen the flames coming from the engine and will only need to be reassured that the aircraft is returning to the airport for technical reasons and it would not serve any good purpose to go into too much detail.

The pilots regularly fly the simulator on one engine and for the vast majority of us this is the only experience we will ever have of this sort of technical failure and it is done as a routine exercise twice per year. The PR side of it is only really addressed in general terms and we have no training standards which apply.

Sorry for the unkind comments, but they do seem to highlight the gap in understanding between the general public and the pilot community and we do ourselves no favours at all by remaining ignorant of passenger perceptions.

Not sure how we can change this:confused:

[hedgedweller]

Thank you for your kind response, I still have had no explanation of what happened to me on that day, apart from a private message from someone today who is offering me information and I have asked him to help me.

I, believe it or not and I don't expect you to really after the aggression and hatred I drew from this forum by my seemingly innocent and yet emotional posting (I had thought I was going to die, so I felt as if emotion was appropriate) am professionally accepted as being a very good communicator with excellent skills in the art of diffusing situations and marketing expertise. So if you need any assistance in the art of linking pilot and passengers communications please let me know. One thing I will educate the forum in and Thomsonfly, the company itself for free, is that How I was treated by the airline, the staff and this site and its posters is - This is definately not the way to treat passengers!!!!

Please let me know if you require information and education in how to communicate effectively, empathetically, sympathetically and have a good flyside/after scaring the bjesus out of the passengers manner - I will be more that willing to help - first hand experience often shows you how it should have been done - especially if what was done was not what you needed - communication is a four way cylic thing - talk, listen, understand - and if you don't get all three the fourth comes into play - question and the three begin again!!! Thanks again for you response - I am flying again in ten days and still absolutely terriifed by my experience - you can always tell where I have sat now, there are nail holes in the armrests and teeth marks in the seat in front. For everyones information I used to be this childishly excited about flying before the incident - some of us just can't help being a little emotional!!!

[hedgedweller]

I have replied to you posting but the system has decided to check it out before it is posted for some reason - has hedgedweller got herself a bad name?

[Gentle Climb]

Hedgedweller

I don't think that you have taken too much notice of much of the good advice that you have been given on this thread. I can't agree that you have been subject to cruelty anywhere on the site, but you have been given information on what happened and most posters have agreed that it would not have been a pleasant experience for you, despite the fact that that the situation in the air was dealt with professionally.
I haven't seen anybody laughing at you or mocking your 'emotional' response to the event. That would be cruel. There is even a message from one of the chaps who looks after the aircraft involved inviting you to contact him/her if you wish! You seem very inclined to read what you want to read and to ignore the vast majority of helpful postings which have been made with your interests at heart, despite your 'who is responsible?' tirade.
I think that you should read the thread again, try to take a more objective, calmer view of the way you have been treated and perhaps you may form a slightly more balanced opinion.
Finally, the last sentence of my original post contained a tongue in cheek reference to Alicante which you seem to have taken very badly. I won't be changing my opinion of the place quickly, but to highlight that line and to ignore (what I considered to be) helpful advice prior to the remark is a little disappointing.

[hedgedweller]

The person who invited me to chat and have an explanation has been very helpful indeed, and the whole point of freedom of speech is that you take from it what you find and the parts that hit you most. My first posting has been taken in the same light, some of the 'chaps' took it on themselves to think that I was complaining about the food at Alicante and completely disregarded the fact that I was upset and emotional because I was very frightened. You say I didn't take your comment before the tongue in cheek comment as useful, and that if I look over the threads with a more 'balanced' view i might see things differently - How do you think I am going to take that comment?!!!!! Maybe if you read the postings and looked at it from a complete un knowlegable point of view, and thought about the fact that I had just been scared out of my wits and convinced I was going to die (and I was not after compensation, just understanding) I still even after the explanation of one of your comrades (who has a much better understanding of the human race and its feelings than you will ever have) find your comments and attitude leaving much to be desired. And that is my balanced opinion. I am not too stupid to understand most of what was said even in your comrades very intriquate description of your work and I am not too poor to notice when I am being insulted. I will treat your remarks with the contempt they deserve. I cannot fly a plane, but I do know how to treat people - a lesson you could learn well.

[Gentle Climb]

Hedgedweller

I'm really not going to get involved in an website argument with you. Whatever you are trying to find in order to satisfy you, I sincerely hope that you find it, although it may not be available here. You will know that flying is a very safe method of transportation and that you have been unlucky with your experience. The statistical chances of you experiencing a repeat are miniscule and may provide you with some comfort.
I should also confirm in clarification that I do not hold a professional position as a pilot although that may change. I would not wish you to taint the pilot community with your personal views of my attitudes...

Good luck.

[Mark35]

I haven't commented before but I think this debate is suffering from mis-communication and the fact you area woman and most people here are men!

There are 2 issues - first, the engine failure and second, the quality of customer service afterwards.

No-one argues about the second matter but this is a pilots forum and people are here to talk about flying planes not after sales service! As far as the engine failure is concerned, it is clearly frightening but the fact that a plane can handle a 50% loss in power and land should give you some reassurance about flying. However, the reality is that humans were not made to fly and if we do insist on hurtling through the sky in metal tubes at 500mph there is a risk and while that risk is small it does exist!

Recent incidents have shown how the professionalism of pilots has ensured that people have survived such incidents. No British plane in commercial aviation has crashed with deaths since Kegworth in the late 80s

[yeoman]

Hedgedweller

Telling people that they have got it wrong and then telling them that you are the answer to all their problems isn't likely to engender a sympathetic response particularly as your audience is made up of people trained to put injured aeroplanes on the ground in the correct sequence of part numbers rather than in corporate care! Nobody likes being criticised, even if warranted!

I greatly regret that you were scared witless and can understand your unhappiness. Please remember that it won't have been a great day out for the crew either and that having used their skill and training to get you down safely they would probably have had a crashing pschycological let down too. At exactly that point in time they woul;d also have had to cope with some very scared passengers, an airport that wasn't expecting 235 odd people to arrive unannounced, a bunch of tour operator reps who were up to their eyeballs in dealing with the inbound passengers and no doubt many phone calls to base, not the least of which would have been an urgent need to get you guys organised.

Having done it, I can assure you that they will have done all they could but sometimes it just isn't enough.

Finally, I'm delighted you are back to flying and to reassure you, all 2 engined airliners are capable of flying on one engine even at their maximum designed take off weight. They would not be certified if they couldn't. As you ultimately pay my salary, I am doubly pleased!! The chances of this happening to you again are minute so happy landings.

[nojh]

Another screwed up RB211 from RR
I have official photos and an apology,yes sir,I have.Sometimes RR forget to bolt the LP turbine to the HP turbine,
As was the case PH-TKZ landed in Athens by wrecker Rackham.

[JamesT73J]

Regarding the smell of fuel, I've noticed it on the RR 747-400 and the 757, and also the CF6-engined 767 but not during taxi, always just after the engine start, for about 10 seconds. It's never really bothered me (one of those smells that always makes me think of flying). Just put it down to a quirk in the pneumatics of certain aircraft.

[flite101]

To Hedgedweller

I am sorry to hear about your experience and that off all the other passengers, AND THAT OF THE FLIGHT CREW & CABIN CREW ... who all train for these "unlikely" events ... they are just as human as you are, and perhaps they didn't show it, but rest assured that they might have been also scared sh:mad:tless, ever though of that?

Perhaps the problem lies with Ground Staff being not "direct" employees of the airline in question, outsourcing does have it disadvantages as well :)

i travel alot by air, and even though i always get nervouse before a flight, i know from the moment that i step aboard that plane, that i'm in good hands ... the chances of something happening are remote, and flying is still the safest way to travel, me dying on the way to and from the aiport is what concernes me the most these days!!

good luck with your claim, as it would interesting to see what compensation the airline and/or their insurance policy will give you!!

PS
not a pilot, not a F/A ... a mere insurance broker that specialises in aviation!!!

[lomapaseo]

Another screwed up RB211 from RR
I have official photos and an apology,yes sir,I have.Sometimes RR forget to bolt the LP turbine to the HP turbine,
As was the case PH-TKZ landed in Athens by wrecker Rackham.

Wow! forgot to bolt it??

Could you post a link to the pictures or PM me a link

[prb46]

You could use the ferry instead!
At least the passengers who were taken to safety in a gale force 10 were
given a cup of coffee.All they said was how proud they were about the
safety services and how lucky to be alive.The crew on your flight did a great
job,as did the crew on the ferry.
How did you find out about pprune anyway unless you have a journalistic
interest

[hedgedweller]

GOOGLE It is how most people find things these days, the Internet is open to everyone as is this forum, so be prepared for females, people who can't fly etc to look for an explanation of what went wrong and find you!!!

[hedgedweller]

You cant help a girl for trying, sometimes we get it wrong and listening to people who can help in spite of being told that is called evolution (not avaition). I hope that if in the simulators, the pilots training and retraining don't mind being told they have got it wrong, so that they can learn how to get it right!!!!!

[SR71]

I have an urge to make a comment about sheep....

:}

[hedgedweller]

Feel free I live there but wasn't born there, so red wellies etc will not offend. Nor Rugby, virgins or anything else, so have fun. But apparently jokes about irish men digging up one end of the run way and placing it at the other in the hope noone will notice doesn't go down too well with passengers who flew into Heathrow a couple of weeks ago, so I should stay away from that!!!