PDA

View Full Version : Ceiling Minima to Begin Approach followed by Circling to Land


Asi28
23rd Oct 2007, 16:09
Hey Fellow flyers...

Im actually a young and recently Commercial Pilot Licensed and actually on the IR Simulator Sessions to obtain the IR Rating in the Royal Air MAroc Flight training Academy..
Dealing about circle to land approaches, minima to begin this kind of approach require during day hours a ceiling at least 2/3 of MDH and during night hours 3/3, this at what we call "the DOor " associated to the straight in Approach, ie the OM should it be an ILS one or the FAF for a classic approach..
I've looked throughout annexes to see whether it's an operational recommendation or whatever...but no answers...w
And the inexistence of such kin of procedures in Jeppesen Airway Manual made me more believe in the fact that it is more a Operational procedure by the Academy and the Operator than something else..
DO you fellows have the same operational requirements from your operator or, if ever i missed it i would like to know the references dealing of such recommendations for crews worlwide...???!

epsum
23rd Oct 2007, 16:17
If I remember correctly, our standard circling approach(during our ir training) was:
Start decent at IAF - continue to MDA, if rwy is on sight, fly the circuit and keep the rwy on sight, if visual is lost - follow usual g/a. We have no specific requirements about cloud ceiling.

Intruder
23rd Oct 2007, 16:52
Our circling minima (747) are 1000' ceiling and 3 mi visibility, unless published mins are higher.

Circling approaches in big airplanes in marginal weather are NOT a good idea. We don't practice them, and bad weather is not a place for practice...

kite
23rd Oct 2007, 16:59
The JAR minimum MDA/visibility for circling are a follows: Cat A 400'/1500m, Cat B 500'/1600m, Cat C 600'/2400m, Cat D 700'/3600m. Obviously more restrictive minima for the specific location may apply.

My understanding is that there is no approach ban type restriction based on the ceiling alone, it just applies to the visibility. It sounds like your company may be applying rules or guidance for ceilings reported lower than MDA.

Is that what you were asking?

411A
23rd Oct 2007, 17:13
Our circling minima (747) are 1000' ceiling and 3 mi visibility, unless published mins are higher.


Yes, some companies do this...
Circling approaches in big airplanes in marginal weather are NOT a good idea. We don't practice them, and bad weather is not a place for practice...

...for the above reason.

However, other airline companies, knowing full well that sometimes circling is necessary, train their pilots properly and accordingly have a very good ability at actually circling at the charted specified minimums.:}

The former is called the 'dumbing down' of airmanship whereas the latter is using the full cabalities and expertise of your properly trained crew, to the very best advantage.

Asi28
23rd Oct 2007, 21:59
hey..
Thanks for the quick answers..
Actually we all do agree that minima applied are operator's ones or the authority's, whichever is higher..
The thing i'am is asking is that, given a minimum ceiling to circle, we are to begin the straight approach followed by he cirlcling if only the actual ceiling is 2/3 or 3/3 of the published MDH..We do gentlemen do agree that for an circling only ceiling and visibility are legal requirements for circling type of approach, and visual contact to be established at the MDA/H..
SO bottom line is.... there some similar procedures by your operator..???

Asi28
23rd Oct 2007, 22:05
hey..
Thanks for the quick answers..
Actually we all do agree that minima applied are operator's ones or the authority's, whichever is higher..
The thing i'am is asking is that, given a minimum ceiling to circle, we are to begin the straight approach followed by he cirlcling if only the actual ceiling is 2/3 or 3/3 of the published MDH..We do gentlemen do agree that for an circling only ceiling and visibility are legal requirements for circling type of approach, and visual contact to be established at the MDA/H..
SO bottom line is.... there some similar procedures by your operator..???

Intruder
23rd Oct 2007, 23:48
I really don't understand what your question is...

If you are "Cleared for the VOR RWY 17 (or VOR A) Approach, Circle to Land Rwy 35," you must first have the circling minimums -- whatever they are -- to start the approach. You can break off the approach to start the circling maneuver any time after the Final Approach Fix, and within the maneuvering area defined for your category of airplane (FAA AIM 5-4-20.b.1). Then, "Pilots should remain at or above the circling altitude until the aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers." (5-4-20.f)

If you are "Cleared for the VOR RWY 17 Approach," you are NOT cleared to circle and land on any other runway, regardless of weather! If you intend to land on RWY 35 in the first place, you may NOT start the approach until cleared for the circling approach as above.

flyboyike
24th Oct 2007, 02:20
Our circling minima (747) are 1000' ceiling and 3 mi visibility, unless published mins are higher.

Circling approaches in big airplanes in marginal weather are NOT a good idea. We don't practice them, and bad weather is not a place for practice...


Agreed. I actually have a limitation on my type rating to that effect.

Asi28
24th Oct 2007, 18:25
For intruder...
questions deals with when is it possible to begin approach followed by circling to land
With a given minimum MDH for instance of MDH 600' .. our operator authorizes to begin the approach if at the " door" ( would it be the FAF for the an initial straight in vor approach )we have minimum ceiling of 2/3 * MDH = 400' during daytime and 3/3*MDh= 600' during nighttime..
Hope it's clear enough now...and would like to know how it is by ur place.??

downsouth
24th Oct 2007, 20:53
Where I fly we haven't got such restriction (as far as I know :hmm: )

Spooky 2
24th Oct 2007, 23:50
That is a limitation that is imposed by the FAA. Many airlines simply have decided that the risks do not out way the economics of doing circling approaches and thus have backed into the procedure by using basic VFR mins for such an approach, 1000' & 3 SM. The frequency of circling approaches in say a B777/747 and in some cases the B767 are so infrequent that unless the particular carrier has an airport on their list that sees this kind of activity, it's easier to just skip it, The Circling approach takes up a lot of sim time that could be used in another disciplines. I just did a requal in the B777 and the Circling approaches while kind of fun, ate up a copious amount of sim time in the process.

Intruder
25th Oct 2007, 23:15
With a given minimum MDH for instance of MDH 600' .. our operator authorizes to begin the approach if at the " door" ( would it be the FAF for the an initial straight in vor approach )we have minimum ceiling of 2/3 * MDH = 400' during daytime and 3/3*MDh= 600' during nighttime..
Hope it's clear enough now...and would like to know how it is by ur place.??

As I said earlier, we do not start a Circling Approach unless the weather is 1000-3, or higher if the approach has higher ceiling or visibility minimums. Period.

It doesn't matter at all what the minimums are for the straight-in approach, if you are cleared for the circling approach. Period.

While the approach weather minimums MAY be defined by visibility only, the MDH is a very good indicator of the required minimum ceiling as well. On a straight-in approach, you may well break out in a "hole" at or above the MDA, and be able to continue a normal approach to a landing. However, that is generally NOT the case for a circling approach.

If the circling approach has a 600' AGL MDH, why attempt an approach when the ceiling is 400'? Even if you see the airport at 600' before the MAP, what makes you think you will KEEP sight of the airport at 600' throughout your maneuvering to final? Why would you risk it?

How many approaches will you attempt before you go to your alternate?