Logging aerobatic instruction time?

[GSXR1K]

Hi,
could anyone answer the following question, please : can a Pilot log time for aerobatic instruction he received in a dual seat airplane (Pitts S2B), if he wasn´t PIC?

I´ve recently finished my PPL(A) and am now doing a Basic Aerobatics course, and i was wondering if i could log this time (sure would look nice under all those "C152" to have a few "Pitts S2B" ;)).

I don´t have a Tailwheel endorsment, so obviously i´m not at the controls while taking off or landing the Pitts (not that such and endorsment would mean i would be, of course).

Thanks.

[stiknruda]

If the other chap in the aeroplane holds an FIC, then I believe that you can as dual.

If not, then no you can't. If I (no FIC) teach someone to loop and roll and they are legal to fly the aircraft, then I'm quite happy to let them log the P1 time. In those circumstances I don't log any time in my logbook but do record the times in the a/c, a/f and prop logs if it is my aeroplane.

Like Justiciar's conversion onto type, only one of us is legally entitled - so he gets the hours, not me.

Hope that this helps.

Stik

[Say again s l o w l y]

Stik, you aren't telling me that you teach aero's without an Instructing qualification.... Naughty, naughty!:=;)

[englishal]

But there is no aerobatic rating or endorsement ;) so who is "teaching"...;)

Actually, from an aero's point of view, you'd be better off being taught by someone with a passion for it, rather than someone who just happens to have an FI rating (though you do get both of course!).....

[Say again s l o w l y]

I agree with that. There are many people who don't have ratings who I'd be very comfortable to have teaching with us. Stik definately falls into that category.

[Flyingcircusace]

You do not need a FI aero rating to teach aerobatics. As long as the "Student" is a PPL or equiv then you can teach him what you like, you can even charge for the briefing! Just as you can be checked out on type by a another PPL

[stiknruda]

Teach is probably the wrong word! Before we brief the sortie, I explain what control inputs the maneouver requires. Whilst airborne, I demonstrate the maneouver - I then let the other "Johnny" have a go at it. I try to articulate the good bits and the bad bits and let Johhny have other attempts until we decide that one of has had enough.
I've recently been asked by two new owners to convert them onto type, both hold PPLs with tailwheel differences training duly signed off.
I don't charge. On Saturday the brief occurred at an airfield where they sold tea and sandwiches, so I accepted a cup of Earl Grey and a brie and cranberry sarnie in the spirit of friendship. I bought the second cuppa myself.

The ridiculous situation where I have to know all about "iodopsin", the freedoms of the air, Foehn effect and ozone removal from cabin air just to earn the right to be paid to teach a fellow enthusiast how to land a sports biplane or keep vertical in a stall turn bemuses me.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Advanced training is exactly that Stik. It is a totally different thing to ab-initio training.

Anything post-PPL that I do is really just showing someone how to operate the machine in a different way. They already know how to fly it.

Whilst you can check someone out onto another type, it is worth mentioning the difference betwen classifications. In the JAA SEP world, there is only one "type" unless you start getting into difference training such as tialheel, turbo/supercharging etc. The only oddity is the Malibu.

I'm sure I'm what I've said could be classified in the phrase "teaching your grandmother to suck eggs" but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

[stiknruda]

S A S - you intrinsically know that we are never going to have a problem with this thread!


Stik

[Pilot DAR]

Unless it's a Cessna 172 you're inverted rolling.....

[GSXR1K]

Thanks for the replies.

Stiknruda, i believe he holds a FIC (besides being an airline pilot). He´s also teached many, many courses in the Pitts over the past years.

So i take it i´ll probably be able to log the time spent being instructed in this Aerobatics course.

Thanks.

[stiknruda]

Stiknruda DOES NOT hold an FIC nor is he an airline pilot! He's a farm labourer with an old biplane.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'll try and answer the OP's question this time!

If you are flying in an aircraft that you are not rated to fly, or haven't had differences training to allow you to fly it and you aren't flying with an FI, then you cannot log it.

Only one person can log the flight unless one of the pilots holds an FI rating. If they don't you are just a passenger in the eyes of the rules.

Why not get our tailwheel sign off, then you can log any flying in a Pitts. Until you do so, you can't.

[GSXR1K]

stiknruda, sorry, i meant my Pitts instructor (the "FIC and airline pilot" bit).

say again s l o w l y, as stated before, i believe the pilot that is instructing me on the Pitts is a FI (i´ll confirm that), so i take it i can log the time, even though i´m not rated to fly the Pitts, is that correct?

The reason i´d like to log it is, in case i want to pursue further aerobatic training, i gess it can make a difference if you have had previous instruction, regarding one´s access to certain more intermediate/advanced courses, is this correct or does it not matter?

Thanks again.

[Say again s l o w l y]

You can log any flight with an FI, though it would have to be dual.

If you are flying with an FI, why don't you just get them to check you out on the Pitts.

[BEagle]

Why not just get a CRI(SPA) Rating - easy enough and you don't need the 'commercial knowledge' which the Eurocrats require for a FI.

You can then provide instruction (except to ab initio pilots) completely lawfully. It's what it's there for - experts in a particular field to instruct others in that field.

Unless you hold a CPL, you won't be able to charge for instruction. But I understand that you may be able to be paid 'reasonable expenses' for your troubles - you'd need to check that with the PFA though.

I'd sooner be taught to fly a Pitts safely by an expert CRI than by an inexperienced FI!

[GSXR1K]

say again s l o w l y, i´d love to be able to get checked out on the Pitts, but unfortunately, at this point in time i don´t have the finances to pursue that just yet...
As for logging the time in the Pitts as dual, that´s what i had in mind.

BEagle, i´d love that, but given that i´ve just completed my PPL, i think i´ll need a huge lot more experience before i can even think about instructing in something like Aerobatics...

For the time being, my aim is, for the near future, to get a tailwheel endorsment when my Aero Club finally get´s it´s Chipmunk back from some rework (it´s the only tailwheel aircraft we have...).
By that time i hope, thanks to this Basic Aerobatics course on the Pitts, i´ll be able to handle it acceptably once airborne. Landing it acceptably well might be a different story...:}

[Justiciar]

There is alot of confusion about this.

You can log Pu/t if you are training for a licence or rating with a FI, who would then log P1. Training for aerobatics is not training for a licence or rating, so any such flight would not be logged as Pu/t, even if flying with a FI. You either log it as P1 or nothing. You could not log P1 if you are flying a tailwheel and don't have a tailwheel sign off, since by definition you cannot be P1 on the aircraft.

When Stik and I fly he may be P1 for part of the flight, i.e. take-off (and most landings last sortie :{) and I for other parts. Nothing wrong with that.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Only if you have the tailwheel endorsement. Otherwise you cannot claim P1 on any part of the flight.

[stiknruda]

He has a t/w endorsement!

[Say again s l o w l y]

In that case, do what you want!