Speedbird emergency descent sunday morning

[sudoku23]

Anyone knows what happened to the BAW 935 this morning east of london at or around 05:30Z? he declared a mayday to london CTL and performed an emergency descent. ATC cleared him to descent FL230 initially, so presumably, he was at level already before he got into trouble.. cheers!

[Swedish Steve]

Diverted to BRU with windscreen problem. Still there

[Navigator33]

Stupid question maybe but what would you do if ATC clears you to 230 initially?
Would you tell him to p### off and continue to descent to at least 130
or be a good school boy and initially level off for a bit to give him some more time?
TOC at 230 is much better than at 370 anyway.

[Avman]

Navigator,

I don't know what his initial level was but let us say F330. ATC will initially clear the a/c to the lowest conflict free level. As the a/c commences the initial descent ATC will take what ever appropriate measures to clear the way for further descent which will most likely than not be given prior to the emergency a/c reaching that initial cleared level of F230. Surely, you wouldn't want ATC to issue a blind clearance through known conflicting traffic. Inter sector and even inter unit co-ordinations are also an issue.

[helen-damnation]

Depends if someone is at FL220 :uhoh:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Would you tell him to p### off >>

Well Mr Navigator33.. Faced will loads of traffic under the emergency he was probably doing his best and fearful of having a great big bang. NO -you DON'T tell ATC to do what you suggest; you try to work with them to keep everybody alive.

[Avman]

Navigator,

Just checked your profile (should have done so before), so "YES", a stupid question coming from a professional as yourself. May I seriously suggest you go visit a busy ATCC and educate yourself a little further. Fly safe :ok:

[mini]

Nav33,

When you're in the poo, they're your mates... you work with them so your problem doesn't become someone else's problem.

Procedures are not plucked from the ether... :ok:

[1985]

There was crossing traffic at FL220. Cleared to FL230 from FL320, given traffic information on the crosser and then cleared to FL100. He never even got close to FL230.

As Avman says lowest free level is the first level we give. Gives us thinking time and co-ordination time. Three different agencies in three different countries vertically at the point where it happened.

[Cyclone733]

If the aircraft was at FL330 even a high rate of decent is going to give 2-3minutes minimum before needing to start leveling off at FL230 so I don't think I'd be too concerned initially

[barit1]

After the Payne Stewart and Cypriot depressurization accidents, it became known that one of the autoflite OEMs offered a emergency descent routine which initiated a max descent rate with a 90° turn off the assigned track, triggered by excess cabin altitude. :8

[oceancrosser]

Diverted to BRU with windscreen problem. Still there

I´ve had numerous windscreen problems during my career. Cracking of the outer pane, burnout of the window heating grid etc. but none of them required an emergency descent per se.

Is that BA procedure after the BAC 1-11 incident, BA guys?

[wiggy]

No, it's not a "BA procedure", it depends on the aircraft type and it's procedures.

[ratarsedagain]

Diverted to BRU with windscreen problem. Still there

Nothing in that statement tells you the extent of the problem they had with the windscreen. Maybe they had other good reasons for getting down in a hurry!

[Navigator33]

Gents sorry as I came over as a not knowing. I was just curious as to how other people look at this. Especially how ATC deals with it.

Never had the "pleasure" to have a real emer descent but had enough in the sim to know how to fly it.
But we all know that in the sim you are, 90% of the time, cleared to whatever altitude you want.
Was lucky enough to attend hypoxia training so I know what it does to a person. Reading that they "had" to level off at 230 made me feel a bit uncomfortable.

I stand corrected however :ok:

[anotherthing]

Navigator33

Surely thats what oxygen masks are for? Not the most comfortable way to fly, but they are a first aid and prevent hypoxia.

Of course the ideal is to get down to about 12000 feet or lower asap, but one should neve let one emergency situation cause another... something taught extensively in military flying and in civvy ATC.

Tghe first post also never mentions the fact that the A/C leveled off at FL230 (which it didn't)!!

Was possibly a hypothetical question on your part, but ignoring ATC because you think you know better is not a good idea... you know better what is going on in the cockpit, but ATC know better what is going on outside it - teamwork will always win the day!

[Navigator33]

Yes it was a hypothetical question for sure. I´m not the kind of maniac to come dropping out of the sky on top of someone else!
Maybe I´ve been flying in the east to much where ATC´s standard answer is no.
It´s a delight to see how professional things go in the "west".
So basically I was curious as to how "normal" atc would handle such problem.

[flyingfox]

Then based on the views expressed previously, maybe an emergency descent should not be commenced without an airways clearance. There could be traffic at a close level below and once the ED is initiated, the A/C will soon pass a few thousand feet and takes time to discontinue. Many TCAS are limitted in range behind and may not be much help for traffic assessment, even if they are selected to look down. May be a hard call if it really is an emergency!

[oceancrosser]

wiggy wrote:
No, it's not a "BA procedure", it depends on the aircraft type and it's procedures.
Thank you wiggy, according to Amadeus, this flight is operated by an Airbus 320 series acft. Any Boeing that I am aware of does not require an emergency descent (Boeing QRH) for windscreen problems unless the windscreen "has left the building"... I would be interested in how Airbus prescribes a different handling for windscreen problems.
o/c

[Jose Ignacio]

AI Procedures on the A-320 for "Cockpit Windshield/Window Cracked" states "MAX FL...230"
Then you manage your pressurization manually to maintain 5 psi diff. until you begin your final descent.
There is no emergency descent involved in the procedure.
Hope it helps.

[Basil]

Had a fire going into LHR single crew many years ago.
Could have been forgiven for thinking ATC had been pre-briefed upon situation, timing and appropriate response.
Very impressive to a new civvy just out of the mob :ok:

[oceancrosser]

Jose Ignacio wrote:
AI Procedures on the A-320 for "Cockpit Windshield/Window Cracked" states "MAX FL...230"
Then you manage your pressurization manually to maintain 5 psi diff. until you begin your final descent.
There is no emergency descent involved in the procedure.
Hope it helps.

Thanks for the clarification Jose.

[Jose Ignacio]

You are very welcome!