Aerotow takeoff distance

[Doodlebug]

Ladies and Gents,

I have been trying to source exact performance figures for glider-aerotow.
Are there any exact numbers out there that someone could point me to? Ideally I want to know what the distance from beginning of the takeoff-roll until liftoff of the tug would be, utilising a PA150 tugging your average 2-seater, eg. Duo-Discus or ASK21. About 2000 AMSL, temp about ISA+20, level hard-dirt strip.
Any ideas, anyone?
Many thanks in advance! :)

Bug

[IFMU]

Bug,

Our club has 2 pawnees and a 150hp super cub. A month ago I was up at the club on my lunch break, and was recruited to do a tow. Seems our publicity director had lined up a ride for a journalist in one of our ASK21's. One pawnee was down for service. The other one had a dead battery, as some idiot (me) had left the master on the night before. So, out came the super cub. Our strip has 1100' of pavement, and another 400' of grass. Field elevation is 1709' ASL. If I remember right the temp was about 80 degrees F and the wind was calm. Both tanks were about 3/4 full. They had staged the ASK21 about 100' from the end, and our ropes are 200', so I had 800' of pavement and 400' of grass. I used most of it. After that 400' of grass the terrain drops off rapidly and suddenly there is about 800' of altitude. Initial 300' or so of the pavement was uphill slightly, then changing to downhill slightly for the rest of the run. That gives about 1200' of ground roll, it could have easily been another 1000' to make 50' above the field elevation.

In my old club we had a Grob103 and a 160 hp super cub. Field elevation of 700msl, length about 2600'. We used to tow the Grob on low DA days, or windy days. Eventually we banned towing the grob with the cub as the margin just wasn't there. At my new club the fact that we tow off the edge of a hill is what makes it safe. The pawnee still tows a lot better though.

We also have a duo discus, I'm not sure if the cub has towed that or not. Problem is they like to tow faster in the duo, but then in the cub you have no climb rate. In an ASK21 you can get away with going a little slower as it is a pretty forgiving ship.

-- IFMU

[Doodlebug]

Hi IFMU!

Many thanks for your detailled answer, you've given me plenty to work with!
What you're saying ties in pretty much with numbers I've heard elsewhere, which is good news. Agreed, the 150hp Cub is not the friskiest, but then the 180hp versions are that much more expensive. (In our case we'd have approximately 2400ft to play with, but temperature is a concern)

Thanks again, and fly safe!
All the best :ok:

Bug

[IFMU]

Bug,

I have never towed with a 180 cub, but I bet it would rival a pawnee.

-- IFMU

[gpn01]

There's so many variables that it simply isn't possible to quantify exact distances. That's why we keep it simple - if you don't think you're going to get safely airborne then don't take the tow. Contributors to take-off performance include:

Altitude/Air density
Air Temperature
Humidity
Runway condition (eg.. grass vs tarmac)
Wind - strength, direction, gusting
Glider performance (+ how dirty the wings are)
Tug performance (+ how dirty it is)
Glider wing loading (carrying water balance, max auw)
Tug weight (+ vs max auw - e.g full vs empty)
Glider & Tug pilot competency

That said, the US Air Force did some detailed research in order to develop a set of operating minima for their operation from high altitude sites.

[Doodlebug]

gpn01,

...prop typ, mixture-leaning procedure, runway gradient, obstacle considerations, etc. Yes, undoubtably there are many factors to take into consideration. What I am trying to do is to assume certain parameters and then apply them via any kind of researched figures, so as to see what kind of safety-margin would remain. Thanks for the input, safe tugging! :)

Bug

[Doodlebug]

IFMU

Never had the honour, limited time on the 18-150 only, but somebody I know did banner-towing with the 180hp version and he waxed lyrical about the thing! Do you guys have trouble finding spare bits for the Pawnees, by the way?
Bug

[IFMU]

Bug,

In my old club we had a member that used to tow with a 180hp husky, he was mad about the airplane. Since I've moved onto another club, due to moving to another state, my old club has sold their cub and tows with a 180 hp husky. I haven't gotten back that way to fly it.

I don't know of any problem finding parts for the pawnees here in the states. They are trying to get me to be the maintenance coordinator for my club, though I'm not sure I want that job at the moment. Maybe when I retire, a good 20 years from now. But I've also not seen the pawnees in either club to have an appetite for parts. Engines wear out, we just had to replace magnetos in both our pawnees, but otherwise it seems mostly like consumables - brakes, tires, batteries, etc. The pawnee is a real workhorse. Dirt simple airplane.

-- IFMU

[Doodlebug]

IFMU

Did some quick superficial checking: The Pawnees don't come cheap, certainly not over here in Yoorip. This is where you lads have it good, so much material to choose from, Stateside! (well, moot point for me and my mates anyhow, considering the costs :bored:)

Bug

[RatherBeFlying]

The Pawnees are great for towing. The first time I was behind one, it felt like a slingshot. Unless the crosswind is howling, you don't have to worry much about crabbing in air to correct for drift while towplane is still on ground as that's very few seconds.

Even better for clubs is that Pawnees come down like a brick after release without any worry about cracking cylinders:ok:

Going back to the original question, the big need is to work out distance to obstacles -- trees, houses, power lines, roads etc. Also need to know if terrain on takeoff path is flat, rising or descending.

IFMU and his buddies have it about as good as it gets as they're on the top of a ridge with an emergency strip 800' or so below [envy]

[gpn01]

Going back to the original question regarding takeoff distances, etc. Here's a link to an interesting article:

http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/takeoff/topaper.htm

For those who like to look at the theoretical minima it makes interesting reading!

[kestrel539]

RBF,
Can you please expand on "Even better for clubs is that Pawnees come down like a brick after release without any worry about cracking cylinders" ?
This seems to be at odds with recieved wisdom.

[Doodlebug]

gpn01

Great link! That's the kind of stuff I was searching for, thank you very much!
:D

regards,
Bug

[RatherBeFlying]

K539, We have a Citabria and 2 Pawnees. The Citabria letdown is the more complicated.

SOSA Towing Procedures (Powerpoint Format) (http://www.sosaglidingclub.com/PRIVATE/files/SOSA%20Towing%20Procedures.pps)

[India Four Two]

Doodlebug,

Here's another data point for you.

180 HP Scout with fixed-pitch seaplane prop.
Grass strip, 3800' elevation, +25C, no wind.

Towing a Blanik near gross weight (1100 lb), I would typically get airborne, using one notch of flap, in about 1200' to 1500'

As RBF says, letdown procedures for Citabrias/Scouts are unusual but not difficult. I don't think there have been any cracked cylinders on the three Scouts I used to fly in Alberta.

I cannot read RBF's file - it won't open on my Mac, but here's the procedure I used (Schedule C):

http://www.soaring.ab.ca/towpilot.pdf

I42

[RatherBeFlying]

I42 and others unable to read ppt -- I converted last year's Towing Procedures to PDF with StarOffice and can send to those who PM me.

This year's can't be handled by my version of StarOffice:mad:

[IFMU]

Interesting to see the difference in club ops. In both clubs I've been in, SOP has been to descend at high rpm and high speed. In the PA25, we run downhill at 120-140 mph ias. I've always heard there are two approaches, either slow (low cooling) and low power (low heating) or fast (high cooling) and high power (low heating). To my knowledge neither of my clubs has had problems with cracking cylinders either. We do the same thing in the super cub but at slower speeds.

We use 1.5 hours of tach time in the pawnee max between refills. If you fill it to the brim 1.5 hours will usually leave about 16 gallons in the tank. Some of our members who thought to use the gauge ended up in that emergency field 800' below.

Interesting to see that cleaning windshields is part of your SOP and spelled out in writing. In my club I swear they schedule me twice a month to tow because I think I'm the only one that actually cleans them!

We do no 1-minute cooldown before shutdown. Our first flight of the day is usually a tow, except for the new folks who might need a time or two around the patch to feel confident. My old club we always took it around the pattern once before we would tow.

One nice thing we have is tow reels. When I pull into the downwind I slow down under 100 and flip on the reel. Usually while on base or on final it is all reeled in. My old club didn't have that. When the reel fails, and we switch to a plain rope, I fly over the threshold of the ridge at no less than 300'. Even though the rope is only 200', I want extra margin in case of inattention or power failure. There is a scenic overlook with swings and people down there. Higher stakes than dragging a rope through the trees.

All the PA25's I've towed with (3 of them) have been 235 hp versions. They all have about a 10 mph IAS error with a glider on tow. You can't tow the glass guys too fast, usually 80-85 ias is good. I tow the Schweizers a lot slower, then we climb better, and they don't like to go too fast.

We burn nothing but autogas, except on the rare x-c retrieve where fuel is needed to get back safely. We have no CHT gauges.

I'm posting all this not to state that this is the way, but thought it might be interesting to compare.

I bet that 260 hp pawnee tows well!

-- IFMU

[stevelup]

Hi

I've PDF'd the SOSA PPT file for those who can't open it.

SOSA Towing Procedures (PDF Format) (http://rapidshare.com/files/64798491/SOSA_Towing_Procedures.pdf.html)

Steve

[Doodlebug]

Hi India Four Two,

Sorry, was out committing aviation.

Thanks for the input! Still a relatively short distance I see, in spite of the airfield elevation, runway-surface and weights (or masses, as the latest texts will have it :rolleyes:) which is encouraging.

Best regards,

Bug

[David Roberts]

Bug,

Sounds as if you are new to tugging - about to start?

Best advice is to talk carefully to those who have done it already, and are still in one piece, at the A/F proposed. And get checked out because it ain't like normal flying, at all.

The other advice I can offer is that if you get into tugging gliders you will get lots of 'unusual' experiences which require quick thinking and good airmanship. Constant lookout is vital as launching amongst a glider-infested environment can be challenging (modern gliders are very white).

If you get to the stage of being asked to go and aerotow retrieve a glider from a field landing ('aux vaches' as the French say, very aptly ), be very careful about the required distances for a successful retrieve. To illustrate, many moons ago (in the 70s), I landed my glider in a field during a competition. Very experienced tug pilot duly arrived in a Super Cub to tow me out. He insisted I push the glider (a 19m span Kestrel 19) to the edge of the field with the rudder almost in the hedge. We then paced the field and he did the calculations, and eyeballed the terrain, slope etc etc.

A volunteer wing man from the farm saw us off. We trundled down the slope but were not airborne by the time the ground started a gentle rise. A few seconds later, through the long nosed canopy I had this vision of the tug heading for the trees on the upwind (what wind?) end of the (what had seemed on walking it) very large field. All I remember was seeing the tug's flaps go more positive, the elevator go near vertical, following which he just got airborne and I followed suit with a bit more flap to leave terra firma. We cleared the trees by about a nat's whisker.

As we then slid gently over the trees of this mini forest my left leg was shaking on the rudder. The tuggie dropped me some 8 miles from the base airfield and I proceeded to complete a gentle glide home, thinking 'that was b***dy close'. On arrival at said base I went to the bar where the tuggie (a mature man with 000's of hours) had two glasses of whiskey, one in each hand. On the bar was a clean pair of underpants which he was about to change into. But he gave them to me instead.
'Nuff said.

[conflict alert]

Aerotow takeoff distance

can't be measured....relies on experience

[Doodlebug]

Hello David Roberts

Scary story, well told!

Reminds me of the time my first gliding-instructor decided that there must be wave-lift in 'them thar hills' (the first ridge of mountains in the Namib desert of the country today known as Namibia). That devine inspiration over with, we set about preparing the pilgrimage from Swakopmund, a little town on the coastal edge of the desert, to the ridge of mountains about a hundredandtwenty klicks into the desert: Two towcars, one a manual Toyota pickup of some description, the other a Ford Ranchero Automatic (the regular towcar.Yes, we learnt to glide off of car-launches in Africa!) and one tuck-wagon, a car dragging a trailer with food, beer, tents etc. The gliders were our beloved ASK13 and the SF34 (a little known Scheibe model) Tow-cables were around 800 metres. And off we went, gliders up there in the longest-lasting tows I've ever seen, two tows in a row with the tuck-wagon bringing up the rear, all hurtling along on a gravel-surface PUBLIC ROAD through the Namib desert! What with sudden serpentine bends in the roads forcing releases from time-to-time, and similar setbacks, we had a blast! Madness? Hey, we were kids back then, this was a quiet little piece of nowhere in Africa in the eighties, and the instructor was certifiable :E Wonderful guy! Rest in peace, Dieter..

In a nutshell, I started flying gliders at age fifteen. Later, when building hours towards my first commercial ticket, I tugged on a Super Cub because the club was keen on tug-pilots who knew what life is like on the other end of the cable. Only did tug for about a year, and all of that was off of a long, paved strip that was very close to sea level. (not in Namibia any more, sigh...)Temperatures were fairly low too, and much of the time there was wind. Needless to say a lot of the tows went straight to the nearest ridge, after the obligatory safety-circuit. What I'm getting at is that my tugging experience is limited and what towing I did was close to the optimum, performance-wise, due to the temperature, elevation, wind, etc.
Also, I have not been able to consistently keep at gliding and tugging seeing as I have been getting my day-job sorted out. After quite a few years I finally have the duty-roster that enables me to get back into 'real' flying, i.e. gliding. The search for aerotow takeoff distances arose because a group of glider-pilots is considering aerotow off of a hitherto untested strip, i.e. previously winch only. I have run into a lot of "Oh, about so far" or "You can't really get numbers" or "They've always tugged this kit off of this strip so XXX feet should be enough where you're at" and in spite of actually having tugged myself I couldn't give you exact figures either, but I figured there MUST be some nut out there who's gone and scientifically figured out all the variables. And it appears there is, witness the links so kindly provided earlier! :ok:

Thanks again for all the input provided!

Best regards to all, safe flying! (don't go launching off public roads! :rolleyes:)

Doodlebug

[Dave Unwin]

I've done a bit of tugging. If they've previously winched off the field in question, it must surely be long enough to aerotow from (unless its a hilltop site, of course).

[Doodlebug]

Hi Dave,

I am now also convinced of that, thanks to some of the detail provided here.

Mind you, you wouldn't believe some of the postage-stamp sized fields I've seen the guys hurtle up out of using winches, in Germany. Crazy stuff! :eek:
Wouldn't try aerotow out of some of them unless utilizing JATO for the tug!

Regards,

Bug

[Dave Unwin]

Hi Bug, hilltop launches aside, a good rule of thumb is that if you can put out a thousand yards of cable you should get around a thousand feet AGL at the top of the launch (note this is very much a generalisation).
I have never seen a field that had a winch on that wasn't long enough to aerotow from, but have seen some aerotow sites that were far too short for a winch! Indeed, the club where I served as Tug Master for ten years was aerotow only for precisely that reason. Were the German clubs hiltop sites?

[Sedbergh]

Someone's obviously not tried the short winch run across the Long Mynd!

[Dave Unwin]

Sedbergh - note the qualifying note in both my previous posts re hilltop sites which, of course, the Long Mynd is.

[Doodlebug]

Hi Dave,

In fact, the German Club I was thinking of is quite the opposite, if memory serves! :confused: The field lies some 30 minutes by car to the north-west of Oberursel, which in turn lies 23 Km north of Frankfurt, in the Taunus range. The strip is very short, slopes considerably, and is surrounded by slightly higher ground. It is possible that the rising ground around it rules out aerotow, I suppose. I'd certainly have thought twice about even considering taking off from there in a powered light aircraft (but then I'm always a bit too worried about the damn thing quitting on me) The mob there were(are?) vintage-enthusiasts, not a fibreglass wing in sight. Probably not too fussed with overland and therefore quite happy with the limited opportunity for getting away before having to give up the fight and joining downwind. Not in any way ideal for gliding (Inbound traffic to Frankfurt rumbles overhead!) but then try getting permission for a new gliding strip in Germany. Or permission for anything at all, which is why this detribalised Kraut no longer lives there, but that's another story.

Allow me to tap your experience: what is the best performing taildragger tug, in your opinion? (Ruling out round engines)

Thanks,

Bug

[IFMU]

Bug,
I have thought about your problem, i.e. can I safely aerotow out of a particular strip with a particular tug. Here is what I came up with.
When I was getting a tow pilot checkout, we did some simulated tows with no glider on the back. We just used a lower RPM, and took off & climbed with less power. If you roll the super cub up to 2200 RPM with no glider, it may perform very much like it does running full out with a bird on the string. If you do an aerotow with the glider, observe your ground roll, height above the obstacle at the end of the field, and climb rate out of ground effect. Then pick some RPM that feels about right and see if you can duplicate the performance that you had towing, with no glider. Once you have a good RPM, fly over to your proposed field, short yourself out of 200' (or whatever is appropriate for your rope length) and give it a go. Of course, if you don't have enough margin, you pour the coal to it and climb out with full power. A bit safer than just trying it for real.
-- IFMU

PS on the "The Private Pilot Flying Album" thread I posted some soaring pictures. If you haven't found them already, look here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3669007&postcount=423

and here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3642322&postcount=410
and here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3651993&postcount=412

if you are interested...

[Dave Unwin]

Hi Bug, I've towed with a number of different aircraft, including Rallyes, Robins, Super Cubs, Super Dimonas, Super Falkes and Austers. However, most of my 14,000-ish tows have been with Pawnees (mostly 235hp C models). If you're looking at a short strip (and I've done some field retrieves from a few 'interesting' fields) there is absolutely no substitute for horsepower. A 260hp D model Pawnee would be ideal, although a 235 C would prob be OK. As I'm sure you are well aware,there really are so many variables that determine the viability of a tow. For example, at Talgarth Airfield in the Black Mountains wind direction is fundamental, due to the close proximity of the mountains. If the ground is firm, the grass short and the wind a cold, fresh North-westerly I'll tow just about anything. If its hot, with little wind and long-ish wet grass I'm a lot more cautious about what I'll allow to be attached to the back of any aeroplane I'm flying. Throw in a strong south-easterly and I won't even consider it. BTW I'd be very careful about taking off with reduced power, as advised by IFMU. I've always understood that you should take off at full throttle, as this allows additional fuel to flow to the engine, which is used for cooling. According to Lycoming "harm to the engine can be caused by using less than take off power".

[IFMU]

Dave Unwin,
At full throttle there is indeed additional fuel that helps in cooling. High power = high heating and the need for better cooling. On aerotow our airspeeds are low, power is high, and we need it. If we take off with low power, not just a little low but a lot low like 2200 rpm, we have a lot less heating and we can get away with less cooling than we get with the throttle wide open.

What is bad if we pull the power back just a bit, because I think there is a valve in the carb that adds some extra fuel when at the wide open stop. I forget what this valve is called. Old automotive carbs had this too, on those I think it was called a power valve.

If you are out flying around on a sunday afternoon, can you climb at less than full power, i.e. a cruise climb? This is more akin to what I am proposing.

-- IFMU

[Dave Unwin]

Hi IFMU, the cruise-climb analogy is flawed. When climbing at cruise speed there is plenty of air flowing through the cowling to cool the air-cooled engine. I'm not an engineer, so I always defer to the POH and engine manual. If the manufacturer of the engine advises against taking off with less than full power, then I'll take their advice. After all, they built the thing!
Cheers, Dave

[BackPacker]

If you're worried about take-off lengths from an improvised or new field, I have seen two rules of the thumb in powered flying:
- You should have 50% of your flying speed at 1/3 of the runway
- You should have 70% of your flying speed at 1/2 of the runway

I have never had the need to apply them, but I wonder if they would work well in towing?

Obviously if you defer your decision to continue until you're halfway down the runway, at close to 70% of flying speed, and then decide to abort, you do have the challenge of bringing the whole combination to a safe stop.

[ProfChrisReed]

Backpacker wrote:

Obviously if you defer your decision to continue until you're halfway down the runway, at close to 70% of flying speed, and then decide to abort, you do have the challenge of bringing the whole combination to a safe stop.

Been there, on the back end not up front. There's nothing the tug pilot can do to bring the whole combination to a safe stop. By that time the glider is probably flying, in ground effect, and with a far better glide angle than the tug.

Get out of the way if you possibly can!

My tug didn't, so being 3 ft in the air I cunningly shaved the top off the standing crop alongside the runway with a wingtip, swung elegantly through 180 degrees and landed backwards with no damage to the glider, me, or my 75-year old trial lesson student. This is obviously a maneouvre I could repeat effortlessly, but I'd rather not.

Luck aside, I can tell you that I had time to work out that there was no way I'd even touch the wheel down, let alone stop, before hitting the tug, and no chance of flying over the top.

I'd say the best course of action for a marginal strip is for the tug to take off alone, and then, if the tug pilot thinks it can work and the glider pilot is convinced, go for it on the basis that at any point either can release and leave the other to sort it out. I always have a mental "bye bye rope" point, and fly the tow with my hand on the cable release.

[Doodlebug]

Hello All

IFMU whilst I do think Dave has a valid point maybe that's not such a bad idea, maybe just one 'flex-power' takeoff won't do too much harm. It would certainly give an idea of the distance needed.

Somehow I did think you'd say 'Pawnee', Dave. Must be an impressive tow!Now if only they weren't so expensive. Another thing that springs to mind is that you cannot do on-the-job-training with a new fellow, obviously. You were on about cruise-climb, reminded me of the old Maule they once had at Bitterwasser, Namibia. It had had a mod done to increase the efficiency of the oil-cooler. Apparently wasn't cooling well enough when labouring along in a tow. Just skipping through the earlier posts again I got stuck on something, by the way, your thoughts on winching, to be precise: If I read correctly you were stating that if 1000' of cable is run out, the glider will release at about 1000' AGL? Maybe I misunderstand where you're coming from, but seeing as the winch puts a large part of that cable on it's drum during the launch I believe that the glider will release substantially lower than at the 1000' used in the example? The old-fashioned car-launch will provide a much higher release-height in relation to the cable-length used seeing the entire length is available to the glider for the entire duration of the tow (well, of course there is sagging due to the weight of the cable). The downside is that you need a much, much longer level bit of ground for these kind of antics, of course.

Backpacker, thanks for the rules-of-thumb. The first thing that sprung to mind when reading your post was how deeply disinterested I'd be in an abort, especially in aerotowing. The Prof has put it beautifully! :p

All things considered, winching is probably the safest launch, wouldn't you all agree? It whips you away from the ground immediately, none of this dawdling along behind a car, cable-chute flinging gravel onto the canopy, wing-runner bursting a gut, while the car gradually gets going. Also safer than aerotow (though I'm probably sticking my neck out here) because the two aircraft also need to gradually build up speed, there IS the risk of mayhem near the ground, what with an inexperienced glider-pilot being able to bury the tugs' nose, aborts, engine-failures, etc. The down-sides are, of course, that you need experienced people to crew a winch, it IS more labour-intensive, even on a multi-drum, and that the release-heights are the lowest of the three, therefore 'getting away' is not a guarantee for the glider.
Anyway, I was just meandering, there. Still think we need to go with aerotow.

Take care Gents.

Bug

[Dave Unwin]

Hi Bug, I said a thousand YARDS of cable will give (approx) a thousand FEET AGL.
I don't have the stats to hand, but I think you'll find that aerotow is a lot safer than winching.
Cheers, Dave

[Sedbergh]

Dave's right on both counts there.
But after 1800 winch launches and 150 aerotows - it's the aerotows that make me nervous!

(It's exactly the opposite for them as trained on aerotows)

Never tried a car tow yet

[Dave Unwin]

I'm exactly the opposite Sedbergh - winching makes me nervous, as I've mostly aerotowed. Car tow is fun - I did some off of El Mirage dry lake. Have you bungeed? That's what I really fancy!
Cheers, Dave

[Sedbergh]

Did one bungee launch in a K13 some years back at the Long Mynd (where they still keep the giant elastic band available as far as I know)

About 40 knots wind blowing straight onto the ridge (that seemed to be the minimum windspeed for them to get the bungee rope out). The gliders were loaded in the lee of the hangar & then wheeled out onto the bungee point with a large crew clutching all available corners.

We sat there with the airbrakes pulled out & the wheelbrake hard on, with the mainwheel sitting in a concrete depression watching the bungee rope stretch itself over the edge of the ridge (the bungee team was marching off down the slope so we couldn't see them).

When the elastic stopped stretching, the brakes were banged in and we were off. There was no real sensation of forward movement, the glider just seemed to rise vertically (which it probably did more or less in that wind!) and very smoothly. Certainly no aircraft carrier steam catapult style of acceleration at all!

Having done a few fast & bouncy runs up & down the ridge it was time for someone else to have a go so we went round behind the ridge (not too far!).

Guy in back had said leave plenty of height in the circuit. I left way too much and despite howling gale & full airbrake we were not about to hit the ridge (it's quite short crossways!) Guy in back banged in the brakes & we went round for another go - definitely the one & only time I've ever done that in a glider!:ok:

(Apologies for being totally off thread folks!)

[Doodlebug]

That explains it then, Dave, sorry! :\

I suspect Sedbergh is onto something in that it's probably what you're used to..

I envy you gents the bungee-experience, sounds like fun!!

Spoke of Bitterwassers' Maule earlier. Not so, brain-fart. It was a Rallye. (Ralleye?)