p1 time vs p2 time

[ock1f]

Hi All,
Right this is the scenario-in order for me to get insurance on a particular aircraft im interested in buying into, the insurers stipulate a total time of 100 hours. Currently im at 70-ish hours. The obvious choice is to find a deal somewhere and rack up 30 hours pretty quick-except that this doesnt suit at the moment for numerous reasons.The question is this:

Can i fly with one of the other pilots in the group and log the time as P2. If the insurer is only interested in 100 hours total time and not 100 hours P1 will this satisfy them if my log book shows 30 hours P2?

Am i barking up the wrong tree altogether with this plan. If i am barking(mad) any suggestions to fix my conumdrum--------go easy!

[eharding]

Howling, not just barking.

No, you can't.

:)

[greenslopes]

Ring up the insurance Co and ask them otherwise, should you need to make a claim they will "wring" you.
Oh, yes......get their answer in writing!
Tread carefully, Insurance seems a great thing till you need to make a claim, then you better have your I's dotted and T's crossed cos if they can squirm out of paying then that is what they will do.
After all would you give your money away to some Moppet who didn't read the contract or conduct due diligence!

[ock1f]

Thanks for that-just on a side note-today i rang my life/mortgage insurance broker to declare that i fly recreationally so that i have made full information disclosure. He says Ok i'll tel the insurance comapany/underwriter who gets back within the hour to say that as i wasnt flying or hadn't started flying when i took out my policy that my insurance is still good now that i am a pilot and the best bit is there is no premium loading(so far!)

I said that's great but can you send me an email saying that...just to be sure to be sure!!!

Back to my original question-basically i would prefer to spend my money buying into the group and flying 30 hours with them rather than spending dough on 30 hours elsewhere and then having to stump up for the share buy-in.Any suggestions--i will be enquiring into getting a definite answer from the insurance company directly about what exactly is acceptable to them as suggested
Thanks in advance
The howling mad ock1f

[Shunter]

Ask the group to get the insurance company to quote what additional cost would be involved to extend cover to you. Policies can be a few hundred quid cheaper if you accept a min hours requirement, which this group may have done. I think we paid around a £200 premium to remove all minimum hours requirements from our policy, which now simply states 5 hours on type.

Paying the additional premium to lower the hours requirement to 70 is likely to be a hell of a lot cheaper than hour building to 100!

[mm_flynn]

Can i fly with one of the other pilots in the group and log the time as P2.
You can only log P2 time in an aircraft certified as multi crew or in a single crew aircraft (i.e. Seneca) where the operator's ops manual requires two crew operations. At 70 hours your not likely to be buying into a LearJet group so the answer is NO.
You MAY be able to arrange with the insurance company to fly P1 with an instructor or PUT or even with another group member to build up your hours.

[bookworm]

In conversations with insurers about similar situations, I've found them happy for low time group members to fly as P1 provided they are accompanied on the aircraft by another more experienced member of the group in what would otherwise be a supernumary role.

[ock1f]

Cheers! thanks for the ideas ill get onto it now and let you know what transpires!

[Whirlybird]

Not sure about this, but I think I've heard of cases where for a small extra premium the insurance company will let one named low hours person fly the aircraft - ie, they'll allow it for you specifically! If that'll work, it would probably be your most flexible and cheapest bet. Best thing to do is ring up the insurance company, expalin the situation, and ask.

[S-Works]

or PU/S or even with another group member to build up your hours.

No you won't PU/S is ONLY EVER used for the successful completion of a flight test..............

[Contacttower]

Bose what about check outs with examiners/instructors who are just completing a club requirement? I thought that could be P1 u/s.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

Bose what about check outs with examiners/instructors who are just completing a club requirement? I thought that could be P1 u/s.
Nope, P1 or PUT are the only options in those cases. Should be agreed in advance between pilot and instructor (and the fact that the instructor may also be an examiner is irrelevant in this context).

[Edited to add that the reference for this is LASORS 2007, Section A, Appendix B, pages 42 and 43.]

[foxmoth]

Not sure about this, but I think I've heard of cases where for a small extra premium the insurance company will let one named low hours person fly the aircraft - ie, they'll allow it for you specifically! If that'll work, it would probably be your most flexible and cheapest bet. Best thing to do is ring up the insurance company, expalin the situation, and ask.

Also, how does the group do its checkouts, if just another group member it may help for the insurance if the check out is done by an instructor - another bit to ask the insurance co. about!:)

[OpenCirrus619]

Bose what about check outs with examiners/instructors who are just completing a club requirement? I thought that could be P1 u/s.

See Lasors 2007, Section A, Appendix B "Guide to logbook annotation":
There are only 2 instances for P1/S (or P1 U/S):


Case B: Co-pilot performing the duties of PIC under supervision of pilot-in-command
Case J: Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a JAA or CAA Authorised Examiner (other than case K).


Since we are not talking a multi-crew aeroplane this only leaves "J".

For "J" an instructor does not qualify. I'm pretty sure (not being one myself) that an examiner is only going to allow it for a test for licence or rating.

In any case please note that for any P1/S, under Case J:, you MUST get the examiner to countersign every entry in your log book.
Enter time in ‘P1’ column and have it certified by aircraft commander.

OC619

[mm_flynn]

No you won't PU/S is ONLY EVER used for the successful completion of a flight test..............
Quite correct - brain muddle on my part

[Lister Noble]

The group I belong ,the insurance put an excess loading on me until I reached 100 hours.
I started flying with the group around 75 hrs total with a £750 excess,this was reduced to standard £500 at 100 hrs.
Lister:)

[stickandrudderman]

As the noble Lister says, it's usually possible to arrange some special loading for the inexperienced pilot.
I've also found that a reference from my instructor verifying that I've got the basic idea carries some weight.

[stickandrudderman]

As noble Lister says, it's usually possible to negotiate with the insurance company to have an additional loading/larger excess for the inexperienced pilot.
I've also found that a reference from my instructor informing the insurer's that I've actually got some idea of the basics helps.

[englishal]

In conversations with insurers about similar situations, I've found them happy for low time group members to fly as P1 provided they are accompanied on the aircraft by another more experienced member
Sounds about right. When our group had a fresh PPL as part of the group the only requirement was that the PPL received 10 hours "dual" with another member of the group (i.e. the fresh PPL logged the PIC time). After 10 hours the restriction was lifted.

Top be honest this isn't too onerous.