Brize Radar

[bookworm]

Departing Oxford IFR this afternoon (Saturday) I called Brize on 124.275 requesting a radar service. I was asked my flight conditions, which were IMC. After a few moments I was given a squawk, which I read back, adding that we had emerged into good VMC on top. Brize immediately terminated the service and suggested that I call London Information. When I asked for confirmation that a RIS was not available, the controller replied that, "as published", it was not but that when I'd said I was in IMC he'd made an exception. The refusal was firm but perfectly courteous.

I can't find anything to suggest that Brize should not have been available for a radar service for all traffic this afternoon, and this doesn't tally with my previous experience of Brize who, workload permitting, have always offered a service. The AIP says its LARS is H24, and I can't see anything NOTAMed. What's going on?

[norvenmunky]

Was the football on ?

[Diddley Dee]

BW

Just spoke to BZN to see if they could shed some light. Without specifics the guy couldnt say why. He did reiterate that LARS is a lower priority over BZN working their own ac on other freqs. At weekends the manning is such that LARS capacity is not always as they would ideally like and as a priority it comes after their own ac, the zone task and then the LARS task. He didnt know what the guy meant by "as published".
In the RAF ATC manning is not 100% and units are stretched are to fulfil all that they are tasked with.

DD

[norvenmunky]

The time it took you to log on and write about your call to BZN, you could have rang them and had a chat.

[Chilli Monster]

The thing is Brize were doing that to all Oxford inbounds and outbounds on Saturday, using the phrase "as published" - so - where is it published that it's not available, or when was the NOTAM issued?

[bookworm]

The time it took you to log on and write about your call to BZN, you could have rang them and had a chat.

You're right, I probably could have. For a civil airport I would have done so, but Brize doesn't seem to have an AIP entry. It does have a good WWW site, and I've found a number. In future, I'll use it.

Just spoke to BZN to see if they could shed some light...

Thanks for the research DD. I understand the limitations.

He didnt know what the guy meant by "as published".

My recollection is not perfect. I may be misquoting him, and it's possible that I was putting my own interpretation on "as notified" or "as advised", which he intended to me "as I just told you"! But I did come away with the impression, obviously mistaken, that this was a systematic refusal to provide a radar service to an aircraft in VMC rather than one based on controller workload (which wasn't used as a phrase).

I've had fantastic service from Brize over the years, not least on that same morning going into Oxford. Because of the H24 nature and the 60 mile radius, they're often the last resort for a radar service, and frequently oblige. I'm pleased that there's no change in that availability.

[bookworm]

The thing is Brize were doing that to all Oxford inbounds and outbounds on Saturday

Didn't do my outbound. ;) It was that lack of coordination, for an IFR departure on 19 from Oxford, scraping the edge of the Brize CTR, which added to my confusion.

[Diddley Dee]

CM

Dunnno why that was alledgedly so. I asked the BZN sup if there was anything published about a change in policy / procedures, he was unaware of any hence he didnt know what "as published" referred to. The only thing he could offer was the old chestnut of capacity.

BW

Although the freq may not have sounded busy, there is the possibility that he may have been working other freq(s) that may not have been cross coupled so therefore you wouldnt have heard the other ac.

I am not sticking up for BZN as my expierience of their provision of a RIS under LARS has been patchy.

DD

[chevvron]

The Brize entry in the civil AIP (ENR 1.6.3) simply says H24 and 60nm radius, there's nothing else published; maybe there's something else in the military AIP, which I no longer have access to.
Even stranger (but off subject), in the BINA en-route supplement they appear to publish an 8.33khz frequency for their tower (123.720), can this be correct? Nothing significant about LARS published in BINA either.

[bookworm]

I am not sticking up for BZN...

Nor, FWIW, am I knocking them.

[chevvron]

NOTAM B1881: Brize LARS not available between 1330 and 1530 on 19 Oct; now THAT's been published!

[Warmen Sie Luft]

Brize LARS Hours are (As per the BINA):

0800(L)-2000(L) Mon-Fri

*Outside these hours, subject to controller workload.

I understand that these hours have at last filtered through to some civil documents. Though dont ask me which ones.

The manning in the Services these days is such that outside these hours, LARS can not safely be provided if Brize Traffic is being dealt with. I suggest rather spending time chatting to Brize, you phone the Defence Minister and ask him for more money and people.

:sad:

[Warmen Sie Luft]

Brize Tower

123.725Mhz

[BYALPHAINDIA]

BookWorm - Try calling up as 'Ascot' and see what happens :}:ugh:

Is the door on the left...........

[bookworm]

Brize LARS Hours are (As per the BINA):

0800(L)-2000(L) Mon-Fri

*Outside these hours, subject to controller workload.

I understand that these hours have at last filtered through to some civil documents. Though dont ask me which ones.


I have no idea what the "BINA" is. There's only one publication that matters for civil pilots, and that's the AIP. ENR 1.6.3, last updated 8 May 2008 says:

6 ATS Units Participating in the Lower Airspace Radar Service
...
Brize Norton Position: 514500N 0013500W Frequency: 124.275 Service Radius: 60 Availability H24.

If that is not the case in reality then someone needs to get the AIP updated.

BookWorm - Try calling up as 'Ascot' and see what happens

Tempted though I was on Tuesday and Wednesday, using my normal callsign I got the usual exemplary level of service from Brize, for which, as always, I'm most grateful.

[chevvron]

BINA (often referred to as the Red Book) is a handy little RAF document called an En-Route Supplement (ERS-about A5 size) giving civil and military airfield, area and navaid data for (in this case) British Isles and North Atlantic. Other ERS are available eg EUMED for European and Mediteranean.
You can buy them from No 1 AIDU at Northolt; don't know how much they cost though.

[gone_fishing]

The Military AIP, ERS and other publications are available from here:

No 1 Aeronautical Information Documents Unit (http://www.aidu.mod.uk/)

[DC10RealMan]

I believe that Brize Radar is making a "rod for its own back" as I too have had refusals of service within their published hours. Pilots will get used to not calling them and ignore them completely and then when they are busy with Instument traffic on training details they will have to "take 5" against unknown traffic and all the associated problems that that causes to ATC and the aircrew concerned.

[whowhenwhy]

DC10 the problem is that most RAF ATC units are suffering elements of overstretch - some more than others. I don't know exactly what the situation is at Brize, but if they only have 1 controller at a specific time and they're having to deal with Brize inbound/outbound traffic, then the amount of time they can devote to LARS is reduced. If you're beginning to get concerned that a pattern is forming, try ringing the Supervisor and asking what's going on.