FI's, Do you think I am carzy?

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

I have a mate, a good mate, who lets me fly his 2003 Saratoga, and its bloody nice too. He is just in the process of selling it, to get either a 2007 Saratoga or a 2007 Malibu, scarey.

We are both just PPL no IR or IMC's, I am just coming to the end of my IMC but he is thinking of going for his IR, which he can afford, I can not :( I do not really see me using the IR enough to warranty the £££££ to get it, which is why I am hoping the CAA can find agreement with EASA an launch the PPL/IR 'Lite' which would do me a treat.

I pay for fuel, a small part towards insurance and stuff. The GPH for the turbo 'toga is about 15 at 65% power, keeping the TIT down. Where as the Malibu is about 18GPH at 55% power but with a 20knts quicker cruise. So I estimate they will be about the same to fly per hour, excluding any eurocontrol and landing fees.

So here is my question, assuming he gets a Malibu, would I be crazy to pay for an HPA and TR course on it, about £800 at Bournemouth (can you do it???) just to fly the Malibu around in unCAS in IMC?

For the record I am a 150hr PPL with most of that time on complex and turbo aircraft, and spent a few hours in the RHS of a B200, just to 'observe'. I am also an aircraft engineer too (Does that help???)

Thanks all,

[foxmoth]

Do the sums on flying either a club aircraft or buying a part share Vs what it will cost you to continue to fly your mates aircraft. From what you have said so far you will still be flying a better aircraft than you would be flying in a club/group at a much higher price but as you have not given enough info you need to do the sums.:}

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

It works out cheaper for me to fly the Saratoga than to fly a club 152, you also get there alot quicker and fresher.

[PAPI-74]

I think you are asking for an incident. Those aircraft are too complex and fast to not have any IR back up.

If he buys a Malibu, get them to throw in the TR for free. This is normal with most deals of this nature.

Engineering helps when it goes wrong to enable you to figure out the best course of action, it won't help you to deal with your emotions at 1500' 3k vis and at 160kts with limited radar cover and unable to climb into safety while you sort it out. If you are fair wx flying....that is different, but why have a machine like that and not be guaranteed of getting to the Channel Islands for lunch.
150hrs should give you a good idea of what flying is all about, but only if it is off ct time on long nav ex's.
At least get an IMC, but an extended one that covers en-route nav with a good school (mini IR).

Don't fly in conditions that will not allow you to see the ground below 1000'/800' AGL. I know the MINIMA allows much less, but if that engine coughs, do you really want to cloud break at 500' agl and find a field....didn't think so.
A twin is different...

[421C]

would I be crazy to pay for an HPA and TR course on it, about £800 at Bournemouth


If you can afford it, you'd be crazy not to. Your post suggests you could fly the Malibu for similar/less than a club C152. One simply doesn't get this kind of opportunity unless you are lucky enough to have a friend who offers you the sort of deal you have.

With the right training, ie. the TR course, if you are comfortable in the Saratoga, I don't see any reason why you couldn't fly the Malibu. The JAA IR of course would be ideal, but at >£10k, 50hrs it's a big hammer to crack this particular nut.

Treat the IMC rating as a firs step, and get a bit more training in IFR. Training is about making you safe and confident, not just ticking licensing boxes. You can elect do do more even if it's not towards a rating. If you are doing the HPA at Bournemouth I guess it's BCFT. They do great IR training, ask them about a few extra hours on their FNPT2 and on the Malibu.

Opinions always differ about the experience level needed to step-up in GA aircraft. I think training and competency are more important that hours.

rgds
421C

[Duchess_Driver]

Not sure how you'd go about it, but have the Malibu approved for IR instruction and then find a IR instructor to do the IR in 'your own aircraft'. IR instructor at £50-60 per hour is significantly cheaper than hiring a club complex - then you also get the familiarity with the exact systems you'd be expected to use in anger.

Lucky b*st*rd!

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

Thanks all.

We are now looking at, maybe, putting it on the N reg and getting a FAA/IR.

I have only flown complex stuff, Arrow for about 10hrs, then on to the C210 which people thought I was mad in doing but really like the work load and got on well with the aircraft. I do feel at home in the Saratoga, really smooth, new, and loads of kit on it, which I enjoy find out about, but the Malibu makes me think twice, just like the others did when I first thought about flying them.

I know I have a golden opertunity to fly some special kit here, which I have never taken for granted, I always look after the aircraft, making sure it is clean and ready to go for the owner.

When I do got my mits on it then anyone wanting to come and have a go let me know.

Any other opinions still welcomed, both for and against,

Thanks again

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'd have an IMC rating and not bother with the costs of an IR.

With something as reliable and with multi GPS you would not fail to get in anywhere on 99 out of 100 days.

WWW

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

www,

What about an FAA/IR?

[cobber_digger_buddy]

I'd have an IMC rating and not bother with the costs of an IR.

With something as reliable and with multi GPS you would not fail to get in anywhere on 99 out of 100 days.

WWW

Spot on , just get some good quality time in the Malibu, i.e fly the thing and get used to it in all speed ranges, light and heavy, short and long until you are happy with yourself and with more than 1 GPS you'd be as said previously putting the turn-back's down to experience.

[deice]

Blimey - what luck, PA46 at C152 price!
Regarding the Malibu or not, what amount of hours do you think you'd be putting on it per year? The Malibu is friendly, but only until it gets nasty. Those that have broke up in the past were flown by 5-600 hr pilots minimum with IR and some ATPLs even. But, they were also flown in IMC and really foul weather at times. The thing with the Malibu is, it's designed to fly HIGH, making good use of its long wings, turbo and pressure cabin, but that also means you need to be able to handle those conditions. Say you fly high on top of weather and your cabin cracks open (it's just a what if scenario), you'll want to get down pretty quick, regardless of those white fluffy things, and you'll want to be really comfortable with handling it in an emergency. The cruise is at 180 kts but Va is only around 130 (memory lapse). If it's an early 46 you may not have speed brakes, also, pressurization comes off the turbo so you need to descend with power on or your face'll turn blue...

It's a sweet handling machine in my opinion, but not to be taken lightly. If I were you and had the opportunity to fly it nearly free of charge I'd get the IR pronto - it's pure life insurance. Mind you, I spent today in a DA40 in IMC with an experienced pilot who would've wrinkled it on his own - and that's an easy plane to fly. There's NO substitiution for repetetive training regardless your experience. Fly it alot and you'll be safe..
Oh, anyone who thinks a 46 is like a 32 with press, think again, it definitely is not.

You lucky S.o.b

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

Deice,

I think you are right. The aircraft will be brand new, so it will come woth AB but I think I am just going to fly it VFR for some time and maybe use my IMC after I feel very comfortable with VMC.

I just dont have the cash or the time to get the IR, in one hit. Maybe I will have my IMC and do an IR slow time. I am sure it would be hard to find an IR instructor to fly on it with me, or would an ATPL also need a type rating to teach on it?

[MIKECR]

If you think you can handle TAS of 200kts+, including pressurisation etc, with just 150 hours PPL exprience then best of luck to you. Personally I think your nuts.

If you want to do yourself(including the aeroplane) any justice then get an IR. Whats the point in cruising around at 2000ft VFR in an aeroplane like that?? Even an IMC isnt going to get you airways access.

[deice]

MIKECR, you're echoing what I was trying to get across.
C210H
The Malibu really isn't a VFR airplane. I don't know what the IMC thingy gives you, it's a UK special as far as I know and doesn't have any worth in the rest of the universe. An IR is an IR, especially if you do a JAA compliant version which I would suggest. Ok, so you don't have the dosh to get an IR. Considering how much you're saving by flying your mate's plane, perhaps you could start saving up for the IR by setting aside the difference? No? Ok, still, I think you need to tread carefully. Remember, there are bold pilots and old pilots, but no old bold pilots.
I think the real issue may lay in the fact that you'll be flying an airplane far more capable than your own level of training and experience permits. That is, it'll handle hard IFR. You may just find yourself in situations you have not trained for simply because the AC invites you to do it. It's a fantastic aircraft and highly capable, but it requires an equally capable pilot. I'm not saying you're not, just that you don't have all the cards in the deck just yet.
I've heard ideas from people who want to get jets and cruise around VFR, like ex military Fougas and L-29s and such. I'm always equally surprised by the apparent lack of insight. An IR doen't just give you the capability of flying IFR and in IMC, it also sharpens your precision, gives you procedural thinking, working with checklists in all phases of flight, planning skills, and a whole range of other stuff. Why do you think the PPL is 45 hrs block-to-block and the IR 50 hrs airborne?
It's your decision naturally, and who wouldn't want to fly high performance asap, but some desires are better left alone until the time is right. I believe this may be one of them. I'm just concerned for you, that's all...

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

Thanks all, I really apreciate all your views.

My friend is in the same boat really, if not worse. he is low hours too and is going for his IR soon. I am going to suggest that he gets another, new, Saratoga, and them steps up to the Malibu from there. That way I can do the same.

It is very difficult for me to say no to flying the Malibu/Matrix but I feel I may have to.

[Fright Level]

I thought a carzy was a place you took a ....

Sorry, I'll get my coat ..

[flybymike]

Sorry guys but I really do not accept these holier than thou utterances that that an IR is essential in order to fly a complex turbo Single. I converted on to complex fast twins (starting with a C310) straight from a PA28 warrior with approx 100 hours in my log book and have since part owned half a dozen fast complex turbo singles and twins, all of them flown strictly VFR.
Although I did the IMC rating about twenty years ago I have no interest in IFR flying and simply bimble and pole around the sky at one hundred and fifity to two hundred knots instead of the 100 or so which I used to do in the PA28.
If one learns the aircraft inside out, learns in particular to manage the speed regimes, recognises ones limitations and does not exceed them, then it is a perfectly safe ( ie as safe as any other flying) and viable exercise.
As for whether one is daft spending money flying " an aeroplane like that" around VFR, then I have taken my share of knocks and ridicule over 24 years of flying these machines, and I have been poo pooed no end because I dont and wont fly IFR. All of the naysayers however were very happy to fly ( and take advice) from me.
Like the original poster I have been lucky enought to obtain subsidised flying of some fancy motors which I could never have afforded individually and I wasnt going to let a bunch of purists put me off doing so just because I dont have and dont want an IR!
I say GO FOR IT!!

[deice]

Who said IR was a general requirement for complex singles? I was referring to the Malibu which is designed to fly high and under those conditions. If you think converting to a C310 with 100 hrs of PA28 experience is cool, or smart, then good for you. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but then that's me being conservative and careful.

[flybymike]

It is precisely because I am conservative and careful that I dont push my luck or my very limited ability with IFR operations.:)

[deice]

Ok fbm, personally I would regard transition to a C310 with 100 hrs of cherokee experience a less than careful move so in my view you contradict yourself.
I think you know that IFR is not the same as IMC and the system as such actually gives you a higher degree of safety even in VMC. But the real benefit is in the training as I see it. Sure, you gain experience flying twins and all that, but a PPL is a license to learn, and being taught an additional skill will improve on the one you already have, even if you don't intend to fly in marginal weather, the IR will add to your overall competence in the cockpit. You may then elect to fly circuits in a Cub for the next 20 yrs, that's besides the point.
In this case we're talking about an aircraft designed to fly in the flight levels, in adverse weather and with complex systems aboard. Having a broader set of tools at your disposal will make you better prepared for the unforseen, and you'll be more likely to encounter those situations in an aircraft designed for it. Are you saying you'd fly straight and level all the time if you owned an Extra (perhaps you do already)? Or, would the capability of the aircraft make you push the limits of your training? I think it may be very tempting...
I suppose you take your Lola T70 for shopping runs? :}

[flybymike]

Deice,Well, at the time I had a straightforward choice. Join the rest of the group who had decided to do the MEP training and buy a twin (straight from the PA28) or walk away knowing that they were willing to give it a go and I wasn't. It seemed to me a fairly simple choice. I am my own worst taskmaster and I figured that if at any time I was uncomfortable with the project then I could still walk away just the same , but if on the other hand (and to my great and pleasant surprise) I found that I could in fact hack it, then on the basis that I was being trained by a highly qualified and experienced instructor, and examined and tested to the satisfaction of CAA test pass standards then why not do it!? Only delighted that I decided to take the risk. I would have missed a lot of fun flying otherwise!
Was it a "cool" decision? Yup it sure was , flying any aeroplane is "cool" in fact flying is just a cool thing to do and I make no apology for that! Was it smart? well I was as apprehensive as hell but I had set my opt out criteria and stuck by them from that day to this. I have of course done my share of IFR trips with others who like that sort of flying and goodness knows I wish I had the confidence and ability to do it ( real cool!) and as you rightly say it is not necessarily to be equated with IMC flying and can indeed make flying much safer than VFR even in VMC. But I have set my personal limits and after many years I dont imagine that much as I would like to, anything will make me step outside my comfort region. It just struck me that I saw a kindred spirit in the original poster's question and I would have hated for him to miss out on all the good times which can still be had VFR in any machine simply because someone says ( "You cant do VFR in that thing!")
Aerobatics! No way jose I like the green bit at the bottom all the time and there is more chance of it staying there if I stay out of the clouds.
No idea what Lola T70 is , she sounds a nice girl , but I do take my Aston Martin Vantage down to The supermarket every Saturday!
Regards
Mike

[deice]

Fair enough fbm.
I still believe that this particular aircraft type, and others like it (the C340 and C400 series pressurized twins to name a couple) are not suitable PPL level VFR aircraft, even though they can be flown by a PPL pilot and VFR. My personal opinion is that the ratings add to your overall competence, thus making you better equipped to handle fast and highly capable aircraft. Perhaps I'm a fool, the RAF sent boy scouts to war in Spits, and some of them even survived, so this high performance/low experience issue I have may be BS. We may be slightly more conservative in Sweden, but I know that the CAA requires extensive training and additional theory to earn the PA46 rating, and if I'm not mistaken they also require IR. I never bothered to check because it wasn't an issue in my case.

Fly safe!

Lola T70 is a 60s race car and a rather nice lady. But the Aston will do! :ok:

[flybymike]

Don't think there is any IR requirement for the PA46 although I believe a type rating is required but not the HPA certificate. I'm sure if the original poster could handle a 210 then he could manage a Malibu given training and the right attitude. I hardly dare mention that I owned and flew a turbo C335 ( unpressurised 340) for several years, VFR only of course....beautiful aeroplane, It was a little faster than the 340, at the lower levels where I flew, but heavier and with more inertia than the 310, although not as fast as the 310. The only drawback was that I always had to tell ATC it was a 340 cos it looked identical and if I didn't, then for some reason everyone in the circuit started looking for a push pull twin!

I'm gonna have to get me one of these here Lola girls now :ok:

[deice]

The attitude does alot for staying safe as you mention, and the PA46 most definitely requires a TR and is the only piston single that does as far as I know.
It sounds like you've had your bit of fun, the 340 is a nice plane, and I expect the 335 is about the same, and as you know they all require that you're on top of them. As for the original poster I wouldn't dare comment on his capabilites, they may exceed mine by miles, but, in answer to his question I would not recommend transition to a high performance single of Malibu flavour without the IR for various reasons, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
I'm beginning to sound a bit like an old vinyl, skipping back to the same track. Perhaps I should switch to CD mode...

Fly/drive safe y'all!

[captseth]

Don't know about the UK, but here in the US all insurors are requiring an IR, an approved type training course, recurrent training, and usually at least 250 hours total time and some time in the aircraft.

That said, having that training is a good thing, and will allow you to maximize your utility and enjoyment of that fine aircraft. I flew one quite a bit years ago, and if I had access to one, I'd be thrilled.