Pitts - what's the catch?

[JBGA]

So why are Pitts Special's so cheap? A friend of mine said he saw one the other day for £20k. Thats Cesspit money. And I'm staring at an ad for an S1S with only 65 airframe hours on sale for £30k. There must be a catch surely?

By the way, I've stood on so many airfields and heard people muttering 'They are impossible to land'.....'you can't see anything'....etc...etc.... I hear this as 'I'm not confident about my flying abilities' but maybe I'm wrong. Do Pitts actually deserve their reputation? Would someone who's spent 12 years flying taildraggers (Admittedly of the unpowered type!) and perfectly happy to sideslip till the cows come home find it difficult to convert?

[stiknruda]

Not cheap, just very reasonable! I guess that the ones that you are referring to are single seat. Although the Pitts product range is not as extensive as say Piper or Cessna's, there are 5 or 6 single seat variants and those lower powered with fewer ailerons do go for substantially less.

Obviously they are not impossible to land and no, you don't need to be a Sky-God to fly one. With the right training anyone could be taught. With your experience I see no reason why after a couple of circuits in a 2-holer, you'd not be ready.

Justiciar, who is away presently is making great progress.

Stik

[SkyHawk-N]

As Stik says, you don't need to be a Sky-God to fly one. :p

Is it worth mentioning the approach speed? 87 kts? or something like that. High compared to a spamcan.

[tigerbatics]

There are many different types of Pitts S1.

Neither of the two you mention is 'cheap' if the particular specification and circumstances of the aeroplanes are taken into account. I think I know the machines you mention and if so they strike me as being sensible asking prices.

They are not impossible to land at all and anyone with tailwheel experience should convert quite quickly. The reputation comes from the fact that they land faster than a cub pilot say, is used to and below about 50 they need more attention with the feet than some other aeroplanes. Also helps to keep the stick in the right place during roll out.

[eharding]

Stop staring at the adverts, and get your cheque-book out.......

[stiknruda]

I'm currently converting Justiciar in his Eagle and we are turning final (power off) at 100mph, holding it at that speed until above the numbers, then he is alowed to raise the nose and commence the flare.
The approach speed is just a number but it seems to cause a psychological trauma: what a hundred miles an hour - that's fast! Our last landing was wind<5kts, a whole hundred miles an hour and we were down and stopped in 180m.
Great aeroplanes!!

[Charles Sierra]

Thoroughly enjoyable spectacle from the tower Stik :ok:

[Croqueteer]

:eek: They are the most fun per buck you will find in aviation!

[JBGA]

So there isn't a catch then? Blimey......I need to buy one now before everyone realises!

[Pitts2112]

Oh, but there is a catch, just like crack cocaine has a catch!! Once you try a Pitts, you'll be hooked like a crack addict - and will have the bank balance to match!!

But, oh, what an addiction!!!

Pitts2112

[n5296s]

The approach speed is just a number but it seems to cause a psychological trauma: what a hundred miles an hour
In my experience it's not the horizontal speed that causes trauma, it's the VERTICAL speed. Power off, the Pitts comes down at about 2500 ft/min (that's about the MAXIMUM descent rate I can get in my 182 in a full emergency descent). The ground comes up FAST and it's very hard not to over-react to that. Eventually the last couple of seconds of flight starts to seem reasonable and you can think about things, but in my experience it takes a while to get to that point.

So yes, the Pitts *is* hard to land. Not impossible, but it takes an excellent instructor and a lot of practice. Unless you're Chuck Yeager (except maybe a bit younger) you won't pick it up by going a dozen times round the pattern. It will a good few hours and quite a few dozen landings.

Flying the Pitts is a wonderful experience. But of course it is ONLY an aerobatic plane. It is a TERRIBLE cross-country tourer! With full tanks it can fly for a little over an hour, and it's pretty uncomfortable. So it all depends on what you want it for.

n5296s

[Pitts2112]

I've got to disagree with n5296s on a couple of points. I think he's overcooked a couple of points and underestimated a couple.

Depending on how much tailwheel time you already have, it is quite possible to get the hang of landing the Pitts in a couple of hours. Of course, it depends on what you've been doing with the tailwheel. If you spend a lot of time in the circuit and are comfortable with a variety of approaches and landing conditions, you might be able convert in less time than you might expect. I had about 150 hours tailwheel, much of it in the circuit, did an hour and a half in an S-2, then soloed my S-1D.

Also, the Pitts has about 2 hours' endurance, unless you're blatting around at full power. My S-1 is typical and uses about 45 liters/hour at aerobatic power (mostly full chat) and only about 33 liters/hour in the cruise. In a cross-country you can do legs of about an hour and a half and still have plenty of reserve. That'll give you about 150 nm in real terms.

While it's not a real tourer, I've done 4 trips with the Pitts Artistes into Europe. OK, it's not voluminous, and you don't really want to be doing more than an hour and a half without a cup of tea, but it's imminently workable as a day, VFR cross-country machine. At a cruise of 120 kts, you can get to decent places in reasonable time. Can't carry a whole lot, but to get to a display or competition, or link up with some mates for a weekend away, it's more than up to the task.

I'm based at Popham. Since you're in West Sussex, you might as well stop on by for a cup of tea and a chat about the realities of Pitts ownership. There are a few of us there who are more than willing to tell you what we can to help recruit another to the crowd!

Pitts2112

[tigerbatics]

I think the S1D is the optimum Pitts for contest work today. There is little point in an S1S since almost everyone thinks they should have a monoplane for advanced.

[eharding]

I think the S1D is the optimum Pitts for contest work today. There is little point in an S1S since almost everyone thinks they should have a monoplane for advanced.


Flat-bottomed wing? - you're having a laugh, surely. Or on acid.

At Advanced, the S1 suffers at international levels because of the size - recent events have shown this isn't necessarily a problem at national level (S1 drivers screwing up the paperwork, and flying a different Free to the one judges are expecting...now *that* is a problem :) ).

[foxmoth]

As said, the reason they are so cheap is because they are single seat - if you want cheap then look at some of the PFA single seaters that are not serious aero machines, many going for £4-5000.:ok:

[Final 3 Greens]

Is it worth mentioning the approach speed? 87 kts? or something like that. High compared to a spamcan.

Don't know anything about Pitts, but I have flown a PA32 with an approach speed of 90kias, so 87 doesn't strike me as making this a 'hot ship', although others have mentioned factors, e.g. sink rate, that would be unusual for a spamcan driver.

[IFMU]

I was able to land an S2A reliably in a couple hours time. By the end of my 10 or so hours of acro training we went to the big airport and did crosswind landings on hardtop. I could do it, but could tell I needed more time to be good at it. I did not find the S2A to be nearly as easy or forgiving as a cub or a pawnee. The visibility is worse, you need to use periphial vision a lot more. It was wonderful to fly. The airplane did whatever you told it to.

I think the single seat pitts are cheap for a few reasons:

Single seat - not much utility
Low demand - it isn't for everybody

It's not much airplane - at least in terms of materials. The Pitts was one of the original cheap homebuilts. Because of its small size, less 4130 and wood than a bigger biplane, which makes it lest costly to build. Because it's mission is acro, they tend not to be loaded up with a lot of junk on the panel. Junk = weight, weight is bad. The junk on the panel also = money, so the simple panel accounts for part of the low cost.

Whether or not a flat bottom pitts is any good for competition, I have had a few pitts owners/builders sing the praises of the flat bottom pitts. For a recreational guy like me, they say an S1S would not offer a huge advantage. And, they tend to be cheaper. Completely suitable for sportsman.

I have my glider for sale. When it goes, I've got some buddies who are interested in forming a partnership in a 2-seater. Probably an eagle instead of a pitts. You pay a lot more for that second seat.

-- IFMU

[HappyJack260]

It's not so much the speed (per se) as the speed at which things appear to happen. I rarely have time to look at the ASI - usually a quick couple of glances as I turn in from downwind (180 degrees continuous turn) and get established on the right descent path, then one more on short (very short) finals. The 2500' sink rate, coupled with the speed and the poor forward visibility, mean that everything seems to happen fairly quickly. And the short-coupled fuselage and bungee main gear mean that if your speed is a little fast, or the flare a little high, there's a good prospect of a bounce.

Like all aircraft, a good landing starts with a good approach, which starts with a good circuit, and a 1000' circuit in my S-2C takes around 2:20 mins, which means that you're constantly getting baulked by Cessna 150s flying 5 mile downwind legs.

None of the above puts the Pitts beyond the reach of an average pilot, as much as we Pitts pilots like to pretend otherwise. You just need a good instructor and plenty of practice to get used to the picture and get the brain used to processing things at the right speed. In that sense, it's a bit like the first few hours of PPL ab initio training, all over again. But it's great fun and provides a challenge that never really goes away.

[RatherBeFlying]

Well yes, gliders are taildraggers and can be groundlooped, but it's a whole new ballgame from the moment you start the engine and have to taxi the beast.

[tigerbatics]

No Ed, not on acid nor having a laugh. Only one S1 flew advanced this year and that was yours. Not a very standard airframe or engine I think you will agree.

Of course a standard S1S can be flown at advanced level and I had been intending to do so myself last year until my plans were changed for me. However most people at that level move out of Pitts into monoplanes. That was the the basis of my remark.

At standard and intermediate levels there is more to be gained from the flat bottom wing than from the round wing. That is what I mean.

[Pitts2112]

I'm with Tigerbatics on this one, Ed. For everything except inverted work, the S-1D flat-bottomed wing is superior. It's a faster, lower-drag airfoil, accelerates well, carries its energy well, and has more than enough roll rate to do the job. At Advanced where inverted work becomes more significant, the S-1S wing may be better, but then the fixed-pitch prop is going to be your limiting factor, which is why the S-1T was designed. The -D is actually a superior wing, it's just not optimal for inverted aerobatics.

Pitts2112

[eharding]

The inverted regime starts to become significant at Intermediate, I'd say - Advanced then become a memory test.

However, I know of only one S1-D that regularly competes in the UK - when its not catching fire, fallling off both sides of the runway at Conington, or head-butting the turf at Sandown... :E

[stiknruda]

No comment!!

[TheKentishFledgling]

Does the S1-D have a fixed or variable pitch prop?

EDIT: ok scrap that, wikipedia to the rescue - fixed pitch!

tKF

[BRL]

Always wanted to fly a Pitts. Anyone here got a two seater I can have a go in? :)

Didn't the Rothmans team used to fly them years ago????

[stiknruda]

BRL

Yes and yes. Best you contact me.

[SoundBarrier]

Look this rubbish has GOT to stop. :bored:

Here I am sitting reading all this stuff about the Pitts - an aircraft that I would dearly love to fly. More and more comments are being made that make me want to fly one - not tomorrow.. now. Even moreso, I am sitting here with my cheque book open searching through the web to buy one! :{

:ok:

[SkyHawk-N]

Don't know anything about Pitts, but I have flown a PA32 with an approach speed of 90kias, so 87 doesn't strike me as making this a 'hot ship', although others have mentioned factors, e.g. sink rate, that would be unusual for a spamcan driver.

If you are a pilot who has experience of 'standard' spamcan approach speeds (172 at 63 knots, a 152 at around 60 knots and a PA-28 at 65 knots) 87 knots is pretty quick.

[Zulu Alpha]

searching through the web to buy one!
Take a look at
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/aircraft+eqpt-for-sale.htm
Lots of people fly Pitts for 2-3 yrs at Beginners, Std and intermediate. Have a great time and then if they're really serious buy something more serious.
I agree they're a lot of aerobatic aircraft for the money, however the cheaper ones are generally less capable so you may outgrow them quicker. Just something to think about when looking around.
Most of the single seaters are on PFA permits so you can do much of the work yourself and also make your own bits/modifications (subject to approval).
ZA

[Flyingcircusace]

But a Pitts, fly it, get it out of your system. Then buy a Monoplane.

Easy.

Harding the floor is yours.....

[eharding]

But a Pitts, fly it, get it out of your system. Then build a Monoplane.


..and then buy another Pitts. :ok:

Went out to fly the 2008 Intermediate Known today, only to be met by AC, who tells me the one that was published yesterday is the wrong version - the final figure has been redesigned. Not that I got the chance to try it - the weather turned a bit too murky, so I just footled about with a few rollers and flicks - Lord knows, I need the practise. Still, a mediocre day in a Pitts - any Pitts - is better than a good day at the office.

[HappyJack260]

BRL - I have a 2- seat Pitts S-2 available for training, private hire and competition....in Sydney.

If you can get here I'll give you a ride myself. You see it's a great combination - sunshine and aerobatics. Makes a great holiday.

PM me for more details.

[Zulu Alpha]

Went out to fly the 2008 Intermediate Known today, only to be met by AC, who tells me the one that was published yesterday is the wrong version - the final figure has been redesigned.

Is this correct Ed? Did wonder about the last figure, have to get the speed spot on for the start.

Also the Cuban eight with all the rolls goes on forever. Can just see the judges subtracting one point at a time for quite a long time...no 10's on that one, and its got a K of 33.

[eharding]

Yes, but I'm not sure when the correct one will be posted.

Anyway - not a factor for you...you're doing Advanced in 08...in an Eagle - but I think you'll have the edge over Lucky, in his Jodel D9... :E

[stiknruda]

Ah - thanks Ed. Was looking at the Int sequence last night with a view to flying it this afternoon, I'll stop before the final figure!

[waldopepper42]

Apologies for the thread creep (so I'll start by saying I love Pittses and if even I can check out on an S2, then you definitely don't have to be a sky god to fly them!!!), but do you guys know if the standard 2008 sequence has been published yet? I looked on the website but can't find any 2008 sequences.....??

WP.

[stiknruda]

WP - NB sent it to the BAeA exploder, I did download it so can make it available if you send me an e-mail address.


Stik

[waldopepper42]

Thanks Stik - PM on it's way.

WP.

[eharding]

Start into wind.

1) Loop

2) 45 degree up line

3) 1 1/2 turn spin

4) Reverse half cuban, 2 point roll at exit

5) P-Loop (45 down line at exit, finish level)

6) Roll-off-the top

7) 90 degree turn (cross-box)

8) 270 degree turn (upwind)

9) 45 degree down line

10) Stall turn, 45 degree down line after vertical down line, finish level.

11) Half cuban.

[Barcli]

"So why are Pitts Special's so cheap? A friend of mine said he saw one the other day for £20k. Thats Cesspit money. And I'm staring at an ad for an S1S with only 65 airframe hours on sale for £30k. There must be a catch surely?"

JBGA - Get your cheque book out and buy an Eagle :

faster
more room
easier to land
cheaper to run
has a heater

I happen to know of 2 for sale here in The UK on PFA permits ;)

[Justiciar]

Speaking as someone with a grand total of one and a half hours on the Eagle I can say that the first sortie was pretty dire but after that it starts to come together. Thats not to say I am any way close to going solo but it is far from impossible, just different. One of the main things is not to flare and pull the stick into your stomach as you would on a cub. Speed is far more critical and mustn't get low or you will drop. It is just a difference in technique which can be learned like everything else.

Quite looking forward to a further sortie or two this weekend ..... Stik:ok:

[Barcli]

JUSTICIAR - glad your enjoying it !!! its the aviations answer to the TVR !!! - come bag with big grin every time !!
out of interest where you coming down south with Stik to check out my Eagle when it was for sale earlier this year ? :)

[petes1s]

"So why are Pitts Special's so cheap? A friend of mine said he saw one the other day for £20k. Thats Cesspit money. And I'm staring at an ad for an S1S with only 65 airframe hours on sale for £30k. There must be a catch surely?"

As with all things you get what you pay for.
Pitts aren't especially cheap to build despite their size - for one thing there are a lot of expensive bearings and other specialist fittings which add to the cost. not to mention engine life.
Some Pitts of seemingly the same type are not as well built - especially if they are imported US homebuilts for example.
Also - like a TVR - you need to be wary of the history of some Pitts - especially those which have been hammered round the competition circuit for decades. You may find cracked longerons/broken ribs etc

A £20k Pitts is probably priced to sell knowing it needs a rebuild for example.
The best thing is to get someone who knows Pitts to adivse on the specific example.

Having said all that

They are the best bang for bucks you'll ever get, the performance and cost to run are both very satisfying, and they look brilliant.
It is possible to convince yourself that your 30 mins high energy sortie you just did has only cost about 25 quid
- I have a beautiful american homebuilt S-1S and a brand new Ultimate wing version with every concievable mod/fairing nearly completed

I can't imagine paying the massive extra premium for (a) a Cof A aeroplane (b) a monoplane with a big engine (c) a VP prop or even (d) a two seater

PeteS1S

[Justiciar]

where you coming down south with Stik to check out my Eagle when it was for sale earlier this year ?

If yours is the one sold to the late Brian Brown then yes that was me. I was up at Breighton a few weeks later saw it in the hanger and very much regretted not jumping in that bit quicker. As I recall the weather was so bad we were having to drive down :{

Nice hearing from you again.

[Zulu Alpha]

I can't imagine paying the massive extra premium for ................... (b) a monoplane with a big engine (c) a VP prop
And how do you get on in aerobatics competitions then?
The simplest single seat Pitts are quite cheap. However, after a while you may want to progress beyond LAROSA (Loops and Rolls on a Sunday afternoon).
What can you do with a single aileron, fixed pitch, single seater? It will be limited in its competitiveness, you cannot take people up for LAROSAs etc. It is good fun for going up and playing around, but you may get tired of this.
Thats why people have two ailerons , CS props etc to improve their competitiveness in aerobatic competitions.
There are also two seat versions for those who want to make their mates sick with LAROSAS.
The monoplanes are generally regarded as more competitive
However these all cost more.
So unless you want to be selling and buying again within a year or two, you should think about what you will want to do and spend the extra money up front.
Beware though, flying aerobatics will spoil you, flying straight and level in a Cessna or Piper will seem very tame (boring?) so there will be no going back
ZA

[Barcli]

JUSTICIAR - good to hear from you - glad you now have one and sorted out !!! - just keep telling Stik how much better they are !!

[Justiciar]

just keep telling Stik how much better they are !!

A bit of a dyed in the wool Pitts man me thinks.

Were you about to build yourself a new one when we last spoke?

[KZ8]

One chap last year (or was it the year before) was very competitive in a 150-hp two-aileron S-1C Pitts, I think that he won a few standard level competitions. He has now upgraded it with symmetrical wings for more roll-rate.

In general, you do seem to get what you pay for, in terms of specification and condition/reliability.

KZ8

[stiknruda]

Justiciar, am around this week and at the w/e. SS was threatening to come over this morning but I think the wx has put paid to that.
IS is due to make contact tonight to let me know his plans for flying with you and partying this w/e, though I think England in the RWC final might prove a more tempting prospect for both of us than flying with you Sunday!!
I like the Eagle, I really do, I think that some bits of it have been very well thought out. I like the single bubble canopy, I like the spring gear. Yes it more capacious and it faster but it seems a lot heavier in all 3 axis than the S2A. More akin to an S2B.
I don't particularly enjoy bringing it into a short strip with a howling x-wind - zero dihedral really does have the wing tip close to the ground. Not such a big deal somewhere (like in the US) long as you can approach a wee bit faster and wheel it on.
I don't like the oil cooler mounted to the botom cowl, what a pain in the arse that is! I don't like how close the bottom cowl is to the oil return pipe on #2cyl.
And in general, they are a heavier, my S2A < 1100lbs. Most Eagles (with all the bits on!!!!) are >1100lbs
If I couldn't have a Pitts, then I'd have an Eagle.
Hell, I even like Extras, hat they don't have imho, is the timeless appeal of the Pitts. A biplane on steroids!
ZA - although I agree with you, you must remember that 30 years ago very few competitive mounts had c/s props. The chaps just worked harder or ignored overspeeds.

[eharding]

The monoplanes are generally regarded as more competitive


...by monoplane drivers :E

At Advanced, and particularly at international level, there is a perception
that the S1 is too small to present well to the judges - and looking
at domestic competition results, you could argue that Intermediate is
where the Pitts dominates - 8/10 in the top ten at the Nationals. At
Standard, there are more monoplanes floating around, but a number of
those are types which wouldn't make the transition to Intermediate.

[petes1s]

Zulu Alpha

"And how do you get on in aerobatics competitions then? "

i.e without a monoplane with a big engine C/S prop etc

Fair enough

But to be honest not every one feels the same about competition aerobatics and needs a plane capable of winning at the highest level.
Just because there's a monoplane out there with 20% more performance at 500% the cost doesn't change the fact that a Pitts S-1S goes like stink on not a lot of cash.

Also, said monoplane may cost 500% more, but will drop massively in value when the next must-have model appears on the scene and beats it in competition. Pitts values are pretty stable these days - maybe even increasing a bit as people discover the running/repair costs of exotic monoplanes

[stiknruda]

Wise words Pete.

Also, the single seater makes a great, country crossing "pocket-rocket".

I used mine extensively (day/VFR) to get to meetings in London, Bristol, Warwick, Sheffield, Brighton, etc.

150mph on 32lph, no closed motorways or traffic work on trunk roads.

[Major Major]

What are the downsides in a 2 seater Pitts then?

I'm way off owning/flying one being a student PPL, but I have a sneaking that one day a 2 seater Pitts might hit the spot in terms of enjoying myself in a sociable way...

[skyfiend]

Cost to buy, cost to run on CofA, limited range.

[stiknruda]

Not all 2 seaters are CoA and you v rarely see the 200hp model make £50k.
Good 260hp a/c can be bought for low fifties.
The endurance across the fleet is pretty similar - circa after 2 hrs you should be in the circuit!