Boeing announces B787 delivery delays

[RampDog]

If it's Boeing is it going? Eventually we hope!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=apL_4wABgVr4&refer=home

[cunninglinguist]

I can hear the " woo hooing " and cheering from France as we speak :E

" if its not a Boeing, we might still be going " ;)

[domo]

It was a big ask to get an aircraft that has not even been test flown into service so quick, especially with so much new technogly
how will you repair a lightning strike on a 787 fuselage?

[Short_Circuit]

Mmmmm.
Saw a nose gear door made of carbon fibre, lightning exit damage, hole you could put your fist through. How can you assess the delam & heat damage around that? Easy to scrap a door, not so easy to scrap a fuselage. :rolleyes:

[QFinsider]

The genius at Qantas knows no limits...

A380 unproven 2 years late
787 yet to fly at least a year late


Whilst waiting for these things to materialise, we continue to flog around in old 767 and classics...

In the interim all the airlines are ALREADY operating the 777 are going broke. (Geoff think!)

I'm sure Peter Gregg has worked out the compensation due for this latest, entirely predictable delay. His initial thought will be if only we ordered more we could have got more money for compo...
The simple problem is the spectacular lack of vision exhibited by management at Q is beginning to cost Q big money.

1. J* Asia
2. AO
3. A330 confusion between long and short range version.
4. Maintenance outsourcing leading to 3 747-400 being parked due no D
checks
5. A classic stripped of engines sitting at Avalon -never to
fly again, after it's interiior and nav suite was refurbished
6. Bleeding of yield to unproven and unverified J* operations.

It's time for a change, where is ASIC, should they not now be looking at the APA mess. It is no wonder the mistakes are starting to show, the company was supposed to already be sold- Someone else's problem..

bring on the AGM

[domo]

. A classic stripped of engines sitting at Avalon -never to
fly again, after it's interiior and nav suite was refurbished

the electrics were updated the new cabin was never fitted(still in a box) this vh-ebu has been sold

Maintenance outsourcing leading to 3 747-400 being parked due no D
checks
I saw the forward sched and all 400 were accounted for who are these aircraft that will be parked

[woftam]

Posted 8th Feb 2007 by yours truly. :ok:

"OK, this is a rumour network right?
Try this one on for size. A yet to be announced delay in the B787 to J* (and everyone else) will mean J* is "forced" to take ALL the A330's from mainline to service it's expansion.
CCQ and all that.
Mainline gets ALL the B787's when they arrive. Already "Boeing" friendly outfit with experience on similar types.
Jetstar remains all Airbus/CCQ. A330/A320 and whatever else.(A380?)
I know "tell him he's dreamin".
Just a "rumour" I've heard. "

Bloody Nostradamus eh? :}

[tenretni]

Ya gotta love some peoples imagination!
I guess all the awarded mainline slots on the A380 which by the way is being painted in mainline colours are just a smokescreen.

[woftam]

I seem to recall some A330's were painted in QF colours a while back,not so any more!!
There were also A330 slots awarded and taken up and trained, these same people have been doing a lot of sitting around the last year or so.
Imagination? ;)

[Capt Kremin]

What WOFTAM says makes a lot of sense, many people have wondered why QF group is pursuing a counter-intuitive option.

Many QF A330 pilots are way behind the eight ball now money wise due Dixons policies. I know of A330 pilots who are 40-50 k in the hole compared to what they would have earned if the A330's had not been gifted to Jetstar and the A380's not delayed. QF received compensation when the A380's were delayed, but no pilots did. It is pie in the sky I know, but QF would go a long way to getting many of it's pilots back onside if, when Boeing hands over the compensation cheque, some of it goes to employees who have been financially affected by these delays, not just the shareholders.

[tenretni]

Those A330's were only given a light coat of orange woftam. If you scratch hard enough you will find a roo under all that paint.
The red and white paint tins were never tossed away. They sit poised and ready to be reapplied soon enough.

There's no denying that Jetstar is a popular experiment at the moment. Sure it will fly the 787 hell maybe even the concorde or shuttle..... whatever.

There seems to be a perception amongst all the QF wannabees that a couple of lines of rumour on the prune about how Jetstar is going to take over the world are going to really frighten mainline pilots.

Well mate a lot of mainliners don't give a toss. The reality is that all their training was company paid,they enjoy the best pay and conditions in Aus,and have their professional self esteem largely intact.

Afterall when its all said and done thats what its about.

Talk to me about finding ways to bring Jetstar pilots to that level and I will engage you in a meaningful discussion. The rest is just pprune fantasy.

[woftam]

Ooohhhh, a bit touchy aren't we. :}
New handle, freshly registered and a LARGE attitude. ;)

[tenretni]

Is that the best you can do woftam?

[woftam]

Yeah,sorry that's the best I can do.
You obviously signed up to vent your spleen,so go for your life! You'll have to find someone else to play with though as I'm not interested in arguing with you.
:ok:

[Captain Sherm]

"Well mate a lot of mainliners don't give a toss. The reality is that all their training was company paid,they enjoy the best pay and conditions in Aus,and have their professional self esteem largely intact. Afterall when its all said and done thats what its about.
"
Hmmmmm...tentrenti, that is obviously a wind up. Because if you were for real you would be putting the smug self-satisfaction of a bunch of pampered and protected prima donnas ahead of:
a) the travelling public
b) the Qantas shareholders
c) the rest of the 30,000 plus Qantas employees
d) the younger pilots who'd prefer growth and opportunity to "the easy life" anyday
e) the truth...because QF T & C properly assessed aren't the best. They are. like much of Australia's aviation sector, below average and introspective
f) history....pride goeth before a fall
g) the real cutting edge of Qantas growth as management hones, polishes and bankrolls the best and brightest bits of the business of which "mainline" (whatever that means?) is not the cornerstone
Just a few thoughts

[Poto]

d) the younger pilots who'd prefer growth and opportunity to "the easy life" anyday
e) the truth...because QF T & C properly assessed aren't the best. They are. like much of Australia's aviation sector, below average and introspective
f) history....pride goeth before a fall
g) the real cutting edge of Qantas growth as management hones, polishes and bankrolls the best and brightest bits of the business of which "mainline" (whatever that means?) is not the cornerstone
Just a few thoughts

d) Very few are willing to jump in the Jetstar boat
e) Are you comparing QF conditions to the jetstar EBA:=

g) Qantas are bank rolling the bits they can squeeze the tightest. Best and brightest or easier to manipulate and most gullable:confused:

[Spaghetti Monster]

as management hones, polishes and bankrolls the best and brightest bits of the business

Well that's one way of looking at it. Another is that you're just a tool

-sorry, got interrupted there. As I was saying, another is that you're just a tool to drive down labour costs, while senior management continues to line its own pockets, mainline becomes increasingly disfunctional through cost cutting and neglect, and the fare-paying public suffers. If that sits OK with you then fine.

[Captain Sherm]

Oh dear, now you're being defensive and childish. Too much time looking over other pilots shoulders and wondering what the real world is like? I don't think I'd specially like to trust you with a landing just yet.

Coffee, like roses, is there to be smelled. Try it........Situation Awareness is very, very, very important. Get with the programme and see the real world.

Carping, whinging, moaning, preening, gloating, boasting,smirking....have got mainline pilots exactly where they are today....with the inevitable future that they put together lovingly though perhaps unwittingly

[blow.n.gasket]

It aint over till the fat lady sings sherm!:}

[Going Boeing]

Boeing Names Shanahan to Lead 787 Program, Bair to Lead Business Strategy and Marketing

(Seattle, October 16, 2007) -- Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Scott Carson today named Pat Shanahan vice president and general manager of the 787 program. Shanahan moves from vice president, Missile Defense Systems at Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, and succeeds Mike Bair, who will become vice president Business Strategy and Marketing for Commercial Airplanes, replacing Mike Cave, whose move to a position at Boeing Corporate Offices was announced earlier today.

Both changes are effective immediately.

"Pat's experience and proven record managing demanding and complex programs will allow him to build on the 787 team's success as we tackle the challenges we face in bringing our new production system fully on line," Carson said. "He knows how to deliver results, understands our customers and their requirements, and has the leadership skills to get the job done.

"Mike has taken the 787 program from a concept to a market-leading position," Carson added. "The customer focus and knowledge he brings from that experience--as well as the insight and knowledge of our new business model and supplier base--will help us immeasurably as we take our next steps with future products, services and business strategy."

Source : Boeing

[QFinsider]

I honestly worry for the future of J*.

very little provision of financial information
low yield business-dependant on continued volume
gifted assets from parent
divisive and aggressive management(Q have that too)
poor terms and conditions
AWA's around the corner with DEC a likely outcome

If we end up with a downturn economically, be it confined to the domestic market or indeed more broadly then the furphy of J* with it's alleged low cost model has a fatal flaw...Low yield. Low yield markets are notoriously volatile. Elastic demand could well undo the illusion of a lower cost base as Q need to build margin into the business. It will be yield that sustains the Q, not J*
Unfortunately for Dixon et al, cost is only one side of the equation, growing revenues takes talent.

So it certainly isnt over until the fat lady sings......:E

[ANstar]

A downturn would not be that bad for Jetstar.

During ecominc downturns the LCC's usually pick passengers up from full service carriers as business' will no longer pay the $$$ for full service, so there exec's go to a LCC. This is what happened in the EU & USA after 911, so why wouldnt a similar thing happen here with JQ?

Surely it would be QF that would hurt with their higher costs and higher fares

[Going Boeing]

Surely it would be QF that would hurt with their higher costs and higher fares

and absorbing some of Jetstars operating costs.

[low_earth_orbit]

In an economic downtown discretionary and leisure travel dries up, that happens to be Jetstar's market - sure business travel may reduce but business people still like their full service and regular services - I reckon Virgin would do best out of it

[Launch_code_Harry]

Lynn Lunsford
Boeing will give Wall Street a progress report on its 787 Dreamliner as it scrambles to overcome a six-month delay in producing the new jet.

A look inside the project reveals that the mess stems from one of its main selling points - global outsourcing.

When the Chicago aerospace giant set out four years ago to build the fuel-sipping jet, it figured the chief risk lay in perfecting a process to build much of the plane from carbon fibre plastic instead of aluminium.

Boeing focused so hard on getting the science right that it didn't grasp the significance of another big change: the 787 is the first jet in Boeing's 91-year history designed by other companies.

To lower the $10 billion or so it would cost to develop the plane solo, Boeing authorised a team of suppliers to design and build major sections of the craft, which it planned to snap together in the Seattle-area factory.

But outsourcing so much responsibility has turned out to be far more difficult than anticipated.

The suppler problems ranged from language barriers to problems that erupted when some contractors themselves outsourced chunks of the work. An Italian company struggled for months to gain approval to build a fuselage factory on the site of an ancient olive grove. The first Dreamliner to show up at Boeing's factory was missing tens of thousand of parts, Boeing said.

Today, the Dreamliner is at least six months late, and the goal of delivering at least 109 planes by the end of 2009 is threatened.

Boeing has said the delays have affected 19 of the 52 airlines that have ordered the 787, some of which were counting on using their planes during the 2008 Summer Olympics.

If delays mount, the company could face millions of dollars in penalty payments to customers, as well as pressure from suppliers, many of which have agreed not to be paid until planes get delivered.

The missteps underscore the hazards and limits of outsourcing - especially with a brand-new airplane, the most complex machine in mass production.

Lessons that Boeing is learning the hard way could end up helping rival Airbus, which has said it plans to use a similar model of global suppliers to build a competing plane that should be ready in about five years

Boeing overestimated the ability of suppliers to handle tasks that its own designers and engineers know how to do almost intuitively after decades of building jets.

"You need insight into what's actually going on in those factories," said Scott Carson, the president of Boeing's commercial planes unit. "Had we had adequate insight, we could have helped our suppliers understand the challenges."

The 787 is a hit with airlines. Boeing has 762 orders from 52 carriers for the planes which will carry between 225 and 300 passengers.

The combination of lightweight materials and fuel-efficient engines is expected to make it 20 per cent cheaper to fly and a third less costly to maintain than older jets.

Boeing says it has sold out of delivery slots until almost 2014, making it critical to get the jet into production without further setbacks.

Boeing set out to bring the plane to market in just over four years, two less time than such projects have taken in the past. It has responded to bottlenecks by throwing both money and people at them, parachuting in dozens or hundreds of its own employees to attack the problems at plants in Italy, Japan and South Carolina.

Boeing said in September that it had set aside nearly $US2 billion in additional research and development costs associated with the delays.

Rejecting the idea that Boeing might be better off increasing production more slowly, Mr Carson said "I couldn't stand the pain of telling a customer its going to be worse for them , just to make my life easier."source WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119698754167616531.html)

Boeing's briefing will be released early tomorrow morning (au time), see this LINK (http://boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q4/071204c_nr.html) for further details.

[max autobrakes]

ANstar wrote:

"During ecominc downturns the LCC's usually pick passengers up from full service carriers as business' will no longer pay the $$$ for full service, so there exec's go to a LCC. This is what happened in the EU & USA after 911, so why wouldnt a similar thing happen here with JQ?
Surely it would be QF that would hurt with their higher costs and higher fares"





Yes I've heard that theory as well.
However what exactly would the cost difference be for the "Qantas Group" to retrench great numbers of Qantas pilots VS JetStar pilots.
What if any protections does each pilots' respective contract provide.

Sections 12.9 and 13.4.1 of the Qantas pilot's Certified Agreement VS Section 35 of the JetStar Pilot's agreement might just distort the bean counters ideology a tad in favour of keeping Qantas pilots on ,due to the huge cost involved with the wholesale retrenching of Qantas pilots.
Just a thought.:confused:

[ChickenLips]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23060538-1702,00.html

Dreamliner deliveries are now expected to begin in early 2009, rather than late 2008.