FTO Uniforms

[pilotatlast]

Doing a survey on uniforms at flight schools. Would like to know the following:
Trouser colour
Shirt Colour
Jumper type and colour
Coat type and colour
Tie colour
Epalette type and bars

Mainly interested in Oxford, Cabair, Jerez, Atlantic

[hollingworthp]

Trouser colour: Navy
Shirt Colour: White long + short sleeve (with OAT motif)
Jumper type and colour: Both Navy
Coat type and colour: Navy - not sure how you would describe the type
Tie colour: Navy (sensing a theme here?) with a red plane and OAT motif

Epaulette type and bars: Someone else may correct me on this as I have only been there 6-7 weeks, but in ground school you get a single silver bar, when you go to Arizona you get two gold bars and when you get back you get gold wings. I think the modular students only have one gold bar.

[JetSetJ]

hollingworthp is correct. However, you retain the single silver bar whilst completing all the foundation training in the USA. Once you have completed First Officer Fundamentals, then you get your 2 gold bars and wings.

Regards,

JetsetJ

[hollingworthp]

Ahh - fair enough. All seems so far away right now ;)

[IRRenewal]

You're the customer, you spend 50 or 60 grand with them. Why should they be able to specify what you wear? Since you pay, you should be able to specify what THEY wear.

[Lazy Gun]

I think the modular students only have one gold bar.

Yes, it's terribly annoying because it's just not enough to cover up the private bits. :E

[dann1405]

when you go to Arizona you get two gold bars

the modular students only have one gold bar

Finally a conclusive answer to the ever raging "Modular vs Integrated: which is better?" :oh:

[birdlady]

Uniforms......pwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhh........:mad:

Slops and shorts........:ok:

One is of the constitution that one has to earn the bars.....couple of near death experiences should do it and atleast 1000 hours.....;):{:{:{:{

[sick_bag]

if you pass the IR first time (integrated only) you can buy a gold jockstrap and spurs from the afe shop across the road

:E

[.Aero]

Guys - Why the obsession with uniforms? - Are you actually forced to wear them? :bored:

[Gullyone]

If you dont like a uniform dont join OAT. Its to get you in the airline mood. I notice that most airlines seem to wear them uniforms, or are you going to say "sorry BA,BMI etc I cant work for you as I dont like a uniform". Probably not.

[.Aero]

Never knew there was such a thing as an "Airline Mood" . IF however you are an employee of an airline, and as part of your employment contract you MUST wear a uniform then that is understandable. Have FTOs put it in writing ie. in Training Agreements that students MUST wear an approved FTO uniform?

It frustrates me that a large number of 'wannabes' are far more interested in uniforms, Epaulettes, and shades rather than focusing on actual flight training.

Thumbs up to all those in marketing! :ok:

[shaun ryder]

Unfortunately the case with someone I knew, who unbelievably made it through to starting a type rating. More interested in taking photographs of themself in the aeroplane and fantasising about wearing the uniform rather than the hard reality of passing the conversion course. You can guess what the final outcome was.

[Finals19]

Its to get you in the airline mood.

And thus commences the tunnel vision to "I shall be adorning the right hand seat of an airbus with my 250hrs" (or whatever it is nowadays)

As already stated, airlines insist upon a uniform for valid reasons - company culture (identity), chain of command (seniority) etc etc. I know some FTO's ask for a plain crew shirt and tie...hmm...a little over the top perhaps...but epaulettes? COME ON! You're students for god's sake, not 737 crews! Apart from instilling an air of elitism which will serve little purpose in todays industry where CRM is key, its marketing pure and simple. Look great in the uniform, but if your flying skills suck, they will still suck!

I think the modular students only have one gold bar.
Disgraceful discrimination. So £££ = bars? Oh dear. :(

[Bandit650]

Marketing is sales. Sex sells. Everyone in the sales & marketing industry plays to this almost without thinking.

Uniforms are sexy. Got to OAT, wear a uniform for a year and start getting laid even before climbing into the RHS (well, thats assuming you can clear up the adolescent acne sufficiently...)

That will be your cunning market plan then :D.

[airborne_artist]

Suggest you read this thread about epaulettes (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=268211&highlight=epaulettes). Uniform at an FTO is ever so slightly worrying, IMHO. If you can't use your brain until you have a uniform on, what does that say about you?

[.Aero]

IRRenewal - You have successfully turned this thread around! Well done son! :}

Boo to FTO uniforms!

[Finals19]

You're the customer, you spend 50 or 60 grand with them. Why should they be able to specify what you wear? Since you pay, you should be able to specify what THEY wear.

I second .Aero - nice one IRRenewal...:ok:

For spending 50-60 grand with them, you should get free beer in the evening, complimentary table dancers, and complimentary swedish masseuses...

Now THAT would definitely give the "airline mood" and prepare you for life down route (less the free bit unfortunately!) ;)

[maxdrypower]

I think this shows one thing, when you attend at oxford for a look round you are told that there is no bias toward Int over Mod students , but when you actually look at it they wear different epaulettes so they can be identified from a thousand yards , now why on earth would that be hmmmmmmm

[BlueRobin]

Most uniforms I have seen revert to cheap pilot shirts, an itchy 100% pure wool "NATO" jumper complete with pads and eppy holders and generic suit trousers.

You can get all the above and the same for much cheaper from a SECURITY GUARD supplier.

Be wary of people mistaking for that, the fuzz or a fireman in the supermarket. :uhoh:

I don't intend to wear uniform until I am being paid for my services.

[BEagle]

The idea of a uniform is to instil some semblance of corporate identity and a professional manner into students at FTOs.

So, if you want to slop around looking like something from the student union bar, you'll have to do that elsewhere. So, dry your eyes and accept it.

Incidentally, the loops on pilot shirts or 'NATO' pullovers are 'epaulettes', the silver/gold rings are on 'rank slides' which fit over the epaulettes.

[davey147]

I personally would prefer to wear a uniform. Not because I think I look good in it, just for the simple reason that I dont have to think what to wear in a morning, I just get out of bed and put the same clothes on everyday (well clean ones)

[Gullyone]

The idea of a uniform is to instil some semblance of corporate identity and a professional manner into students at FTOs. At last, some sense.

[Snowiey]

'in ground school you get a single silver bar, when you go to Arizona you get two gold bars and when you get back you get gold wings. I think the modular students only have one gold bar.'
What do you get after MCC? An Oxford Prefect badge and tie?
Don’t get me wrong, when I looked around the place I thought that Oxford was a very professional set up. However, I decided it wasn’t for me both in terms of environment and value for money.
As for the fancy dress, I'm very relieved my training school does not inflict that upon us. I don’t think I could stand that unwarranted hierarchal mentality amongst fellow students. In my opinion stripes should be worn when they actually mean something, as well as when a command structure is actually important and required, i.e. - employed pilots of varying rank.
I can see the positive values associated with uniform, such as corporate identity and discipline applying to the very young students (ie just out of school ), but certainly not the majority of people in flight training who often have held responsible jobs and achieved much, before embarking upon flight training.
Nice to see Oxford actively segregating their slightly less valued modular customers from the integrated guys. I’d be gutted to end up a second class citizen within a training institution which was at the top end of the price list (in terms of modular school choices) - Still, money talks, thats life!

All those that are undertaking your training – good luck – where ever you’re doing it.

Jon.

[744FO]

I've heard that at 1100 every day Oxford students get given milk, making sure they develop healthy strong bones and that once they go to Arizona they're given Clearasil and lessons in SexEd.

Could this be true? :cool:

[jb5000]

Our course does require a uniform and the 'rank slide' you get is the company logo once you have passed your PPL. Junior instructors have 3 bars and senior ones 4.

Sensible compromise? Makes it easy to identify everyone and as we don't actually earn any 'bars' until we are with an airline then nobody has the nerve to say that we have ideas above our station.

I love the anti-OAT banter on this whole forum, haven't decided how much of it is jealousy yet.

[Antonio Montana]

Great Idea......when I did my CPL in the US, modular, shock and horror, the school insisted that we wore uniforms with epalettes, now I did accept this, but you did feel a bit of a t:mad::mad:t everytime you went anywhere in uniform off the airport.
The other issue was this, in the lovely Florida summer, when it is nice and hot there is nothing like a pair of black trousers in a small plane, you and your instructor sure do honk after an hour or two, thank god there was a pool at the dig's.
Conversely when I returned to the UK and did my IR, still in the summer, shorts and tee shirts were in order and we were a lot cooler.
I do think this idea of uniform is insane, however if you don't want to wear one don't go to that particular school! I had no problems with my school, very good and professional, just wish they did not bother too much about the uniform.
Tony

[.Aero]

At last, some sense. No sh*t sherlocks! We all know that uniforms are to "instil some semblance of corporate identity and a professional manner into students at FTOs " - We accept that - Nobody is going to refuse training at a suitabily qualified FTO based purely on their mandatory requirement of wearing a uniform! We pay taxes, doesnt mean we enjoy doing so. :ugh:

[Bandit650]

Beagle: You do not need a uniform to encourage a sense of professionalism and corporate identity - complete twoddle. You are referring to dressing smartly, which is a world away from wearing a uniform.

Uniforms have their roots in the military, obviously. Airline pillots wear uniforms because the public wish to feel safe in the fact that their vessel is being flown/sailed/operated in a highly professional, almost military style of precision and competency...quite rightly too. A uniform is a visual endorsement of that perception. Personally, I think its its correct for professional airline pilots to wear uniforms.

However, turning to OAT. OAT is not the military (although it could be given the average age of its conscripts). Nor is it an airline. People who see OAT students walking around think they look like space cadets, not trainee airline pilots. The whole rank & stripes thing simply adds insult to injury. Add to that and the fact, if true, that modular students wear one bar and integrated students wear two (or whatever) and you cannot escape from concluding that instilling professionalism is not the primary driver for wearing uniforms at OAT.

Rant complete.

[trainee99]

Navy trousers
White shirt
CTC logoed tie
CTC epaulettes awarded once you complete the foundation - i.e. once you start the wings course (this may have changed since going integrated - i don't know the structure of the foundation now - this used to be an NZ PPL, but I'm not sure that's necessary now).
Dark shoes
Navy flying jacket and v-neck jumper also provided.
All provided by CTC.
Hope this helps the originator who just wanted to find out what uniforms are worn! :)

[MikeAlphaBravo]

2 stripes for going to Arizona with zero flight time?! I am in the right seat of a 75 and i only got 2 bars! What a load of sh*te!
For training, whatever makes you feel comfortable should be the order of the day.

[.Aero]

I just thought of something - dont know if it's a valid point - Would you say it might actually be safer to wear workmen overalls when flying light general aviation aircraft rather than a full FTO uniforms with belts, buttons, epalette holders, name badges, security/ID lanyards around your neck because you would probably get all of those caught should you need to make a quick evac out of small crammy metal door?

Just a thought. :bored:

[Finals19]

When I flew air taxi on a PA31, we wore overalls for exactly that reason! (95% of our contracts were cargo)

I fail to see the need to wear uniform to instill a sense of identity and discipline into an FTO - utter b*llocks. You're taught to conform and be a well disciplined individual at school not an FTO who are taking 60K off you. OAT is not Eaton for god's sakes! Hmm..but then maybe it is....

Save the uniforms for the professional boys who are required to wear them and have earned them. If you want to wear something because you have the intense desire to belong and you lack individuality, then a smart polo shirt with a small logo would suffice wouldn't it?

[Contacttower]

Would you say it might actually be safer to wear workmen overalls when flying light general aviation aircraft rather than a full FTO uniforms with belts, buttons, epalette holders, name badges, security/ID lanyards around your neck because you would probably get all of those caught should you need to make a quick evac out of small crammy metal door?



I think the wearing of overalls is actually much more appropriate in a light aircraft than FTO uniforms. The RAF at least have the sense to cover their uniforms while flying.

[Bandit650]

I have an idea. How about OAT introduce velcro attached squadron badges on their uniforms, so if one of their aircraft crashes behind enemy lines...say at CabAir Biggin Hill for example, the crew can rip off their badges double quick so no-one would be any the wiser as to the identity of the crew.......;)

[Finals19]

That's a clever and cunning plan there Bandit 650...

Men of intelligence should consider the OAT aptitude test...never know you might be in with a chance...just think of those bars! (not the type with women in them!!)

:ok:

[AHMC]

Plain and simply on the subject of uniforms i think the rule should be clear:

If your ambition is to fly privately then you can turn up and fly in whatever you like.

If your ambition is to fly professionally then i think you need to act and dress professionally from the start. Maybe slightly different for modular ppl/hour building but from CPL upwards the absolute minimum should be pilot shirt, trousers and tie.

For the professional pilot this standard is always going to be echoed throughout their career. So i think it's good mental practice to get in to the discipline of preparing ( shine shoes, press shirt and slacks) and wearing a uniform of some description.

As for eppaullettes - ummm..... you have to laugh when you see someone with four bars on climbing out of a cessna 152? - on a private flight.

However within a professional integrated environment - ie. OAT, CABAIR, JEREZ etc there is nothing wrong with this. I presume their role is to help candidates become familiar with seniority and authority gradients. I think its a good idea and probably would lead to more well rounded candidate that is used to sitting next to someone wearing the all austere coveted four bars.

On a slightly more bemused note the amount of airline pilots i've seen who don't shine their shoes, cut their hair, do up their jacket, or tuck their shirt in is just appaling!! If you are reading this and you are one of those people - please do something about it - remember you're suppose to inspire people with confidence in commercial aviation and you as a pilot.

Oh and while i'm here - is it just me or do airline pilot uniforms seem to be getting shabbier? The more lo-cost the airlines seems to be echoed in the uniforms as well (single breasted plastic button jackets, plastic hats and nylon/polyester trousers that short your electrics are really just too cheap)

I once remember a Captain whose airline had cut costs by making uniforms single breasted, green tie, plastic buttons etc... was standing waiting for his family at JFK when a man and his wife came up and said, and i quote,

"Excuse me - can you help us with our bags, we need them taking to american departures"

i rest my case.

In my book, and many others i'm sure, uniforms should be as follows:

Double breasted Naval Style Button Jacket (you know the smart ones with the vertical buttons made out of a nice heavy fabric (non cheap).

Here's a good example
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38096000/jpg/_38096347_trav_150.jpg

Non-Branded or Subtly Branded Tie
Slacks
Black Polished Shoes
White Pilot Shirt

On the color schemes, - well theres only two worth noting:

White shirt / Black slacks,jacket and tie/ Gold or Silver bars & insignia
or
White shirt / Navy slacks,jacket and tie/ Silver bars & insignia

Sorry no offence intended to anyone at all but i just feel that pilots should look like pilots. Nowadays people look at pilots and their impression is "glorified bus driver" - what's changed from the days when people used to ask for a pilots autograph and look up to pilots because they epitomized a successful, fulfilling and prosperous career?...


Just my 2 cents...

[expedite08]

shirt and trousers and a shiny pair of shoes are all that is required. Especially on test.

[Frank Furillo]

give me strength:ugh::ugh:

[cfwake]

isn't it interesting that there are only actually 3 or 4 posts that actually give the guy the answer he was looking for? yet again, this post has been hijacked so that people can, as far as i can see, argue about modular vs integrated, however thinly veiled it is.

i sense deja vu...for the 14,000th time.

[corsair]

In my opinion, it's a throwback to when airlines sponsored students at the likes of OAT etc. Which in itself probably relates to the naval tradition and the merchant marine, which is where aviation took it's cues from in the early days. The excuse that the wearing of a uniform encourages a sense of professionalism etc is total beeolucks. If you need a uniform for that you are screwed from the start.

The reality is that it's all about corporate identity and is a public relations exercise for potential customers. Almost all flight schools have some sort of uniform for their instructors. Quite rightly, it does give an air of professionalism. Uniforms are OK, most companies that deal with public, shops, bars, restaurants have a uniform of sorts. None of them expect their customers to dress in a uniform.

So why do flight schools? I think it's just a bit of a tradition, a tradition that needs to pass into history. As for issuing bars and stars and wings and things, well pulleezze.:rolleyes:

[AHMC]

I agree - uniform and flying skill / ability are two totally separate things.

Uniform is for corporate identity / tradition and professionalism and can't ever be linked to flying ability.

As you quite rightly said - if you need a uniform to fly then quite right - you're stuffed!

[Adios]

I suppose recruiters and management from the likes of FlyBE, Thomson Fly, Thomas Cook, XL, NetJets, British Airways, EasyJet, etc. would be so impressed by an FTO full of individuals wearing whatever they like that they would gladly take their sponsoring/mentoring/tagging schemes to such FTOs. NOT!

I suspect their choice of where to run their programmes might have something not only to do with the quality of training, the professionalism of the FTO's staff and management, as well as it's facilities, but also the decorum and professionalism of it's current students. The best way for them to tell what they will get if they choose an FTO for a cadet programme is to look at who is already training there.

This argument won't be persausive to the naysayers here, as they've already got theirs, but it is one of a few legitimate reasons an FTO might require uniforms. Airline recruiters walk the halls of the schools being slagged here with some frequency, so whether you have a choice what to wear or not, make sure it is smart, as you never know who you will bump into or how good their memory will be at a later interview if they see you looking less than professional around your FTO now.

[The Mixmaster]

I wonder what banks, NHS, law firms etc make of the thousands of their future employee's in all sorts of states in universities across the country. In my opinion people really do read too much into the uniform=professional=better future employee debate.

[dhps]

Just to let you know what they give you over at Flight Training Europe:

5 very basic white short sleave pilot shirts
2 pairs of itchy navy trousers
Navy jumper
Black tie (now with logo I think)
Nice navy blue jacket with FTE logo
Blue cap with logo

Epaulettes:
Nothing until first solo thena blank black epaulette patch, CPL 1 gold bar and IR two gold bars.

By the way, integrated IS better than modular, unless I suppose you do a one stop modular and save enough money to splash out on something like a Ryanair type rating!

[Frank Furillo]

dhps, thankyou soooooooooooo much for being so insightful at your age, now son go and play with you tonka's

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

"Integrated IS better than modular...."

At the risk of not wanting to take this thread the wrong way, whatever happened to opinions, choices for individuals depending on circumstances etc etc...

I'm afraid your post does smack of immaturity, and "my opinion is right and everyone else is wrong" -itis.

Won't go down too well in the flightdeck Im afraid.

[Finals19]

Won't go down too well in the flightdeck Im afraid

Amen to that.

And this is where some of the "top" FTO's risk falling down with some (by no means all) students. All the arguments (for conformity, discipline etc) aside for uniforms, there are going to be some who leave the Oxbridge of FTO's at a very young and impressionable age, with an "I'm a better, more superior guy than the next because of where I went" bug soooo far up there own ar*se that apart from the company who is contracted to take cadets, many others will not touch them with a barge pole. Its all about attitude no?

[clanger32]

Just my two cents worth. I don't know why the FTOs choose to require uniforms, but I do suspect that there is reason behind it (which I don't know) given that they all do it.

However, that's not my major point. I find it VERY confusing that so many of you are so opinionated on the subject. Is it really worth giving yourself an annurism over? Probably not.

Personally, I'm agnostic over wearing a uniform. I would happy not wearing one, but I'm just as happy to wear one. It really doesn't make any difference to your ability to take or pass a course to gain your fATPL or gain employment at the end of it.

However, in the grand scheme of things uniform/no uniform is pretty petty, isn't it?

[CamelhAir]

FTO's use uniforms because it impresses the customer, the prospective student. When far too many students in FTO's are only there because they think they will look cool in a jet cockpit, what better way to help them part with the cash if the school can let them see that they will at least look like a pilot on day 1.
As for stripes on students, :rolleyes: Again, same reason, it appeals to the vanity of the student if they can get to wear some bars. Never mind that they don't have a job, they will feel like real pilots with 1 bar per 100 hrs.
It's all marketing, all to do with encouraging people to hand over money. And given that some FTO's are inhabited by people like dhps and the people alluded to by Finals19 , it is an important and effective piece of marketing.

[AHMC]

Sorry - i beg to differ slightly...

Uniforms serve several purposes - discipline, uniformity, image, and rank/role.

Why do trainee doctors where white coats?
Why do training nurses / physios where their uniforms?
Why do training flight attendants where uniform?

(when i say uniform i mean some smart matching outfit of some generic description)

I think the answer to all of these is the four reasons i gave to varying degrees...

1. Discipline - This is more military but in the civilian world ironing a shirt, shining shoes require discipline. This skill is required for airline flying - so whilst training this is a good skill to develop and a good way in which to develop it.

2. Uniformity - Someone posted earlier that uniform takes away worries such as "what will i wear today?" type concerns and instead puts everyone on the same level socially. How many problems do people have in society worrying about their brand of shoes or handbag or who makes their shirt etc... There is no room for that type of thinking in aviation and uniform ensures that as much as is possible this type of thinking is suppressed - leaving people to concentrate on flying the plane.

3. Image - Aviation as a whole is considered a serious business. I'm sure anyone participating in this thread knows someone who has asked them "wow - how do aeroplanes fly? thats so amazing etc etc etc...". Lawyers are expected to appear smart, doctors smart or white coats etc, accountants and most professionals are expected to turn out smartly dressed.

How would any of us feel if a lawyer turned up to defend us dressed like a tramp?

How would any of us feel if a doctor turned up to treat us and looked like he/she hadn't even bothered to look serious?

We would feel a little uncertain of their ability to perform their roles - wouldn't we? (that is fair enough).

So image in this sense is to do with the expectation of the general public / customers / and anyone who looks at aviation to see people who at least look like they know what they are doing, and appear on the outside to have more perceived confidence in their ability.

The general public naturally have a sterotype mentality - they see someone in a double breasted suit, well groomed and they think either - lawyer, banker etc etc.

In the flight training environment - i think wearing a uniform adds to the natural confidence of students, makes them take pride in their appearance and provides the right image and confidence to those people paying for it.

4. Rank / Role - OK lets face it aviation has its roots in naval/military settings. Why do we have captains or first officers at all? - Simple because their needs to be. CRM/MCC may try to reduce the authority gradient in the cockpit so that junior FOs don't feel so uncomfortable with Senior Caps but at the end of the day there is always going to be Rank & Role.

It is simply unacceptable for crew/personnel to say "which one of you is the Captain" because the chain of command should be clear and unambiguos at all times.

So using bars is the military method of rank ie. more gold/silver means more authority... it's simple and works - people know their place and can get on with the actual job of flying the plane etc.

In the flight training environment the question of "is this nescessarily good practice to echo this airline policy of rank/role?" i think can be answered with Yes - because - you are also training to work with the rank and role structure.

Think about the amount of people in aviation who have an attitude problem. They have never done military service or experienced working within a discipline / rank role environment - is the time for them to learn when they get to the airlines or is it best to remove the ruts during training?

I think you probably know the answers.

On another point with regards to professionalism and uniform...

I think professionalism is not just how you act but also how you look as well.

To be professional you have to..

Talk the talk and walk the walk AND look the business.

How seriously would you take a pilot who turned up to fly a passenger transport aircraft dressed in jeans and a t-shirt?

They may be the best pilot in the world but people are going to automatically think first off - "Oh my god THAT is flying our plane!"

Aviation is a serious business. The people involved in it have to act serious, think serious and look serious. This applies both to operational aviation and aviation set within a training environments as well.

[Adios]

AHMC,

While I agree with much of what you have written, you have failed to make the case why uniforms are required to acheive any of it. At most integrated FTO's, students attend class the first week in smart civvies before they get their uniforms. I see no reason why that could not continue, though I have mentioned why I think the FTOs require uniforms. I have also seen students look disheviled in their uniforms. A slob is still a slob no matter what they wear!

[birdlady]

Im sorry AHMC but one does not want to be pedantic but is it not wear as opposed to where. :p:p:p:p;)

otherwise in a strange kind of way you do make a good point as with regard uniforms. Bars are a whole other story.

[AHMC]

Thanks Birdlady - oops...quite right (notice i'm not debating the standard of grammer and spelling within the flight deck environment he he ;-) )

Adios :-

I think if people talk about flying ability and progress then uniforms have nothing to do with it because the two are totally separate domains.

The point i am making is that being a pilot is not just about flying a plane, it is about so much more, discipline, attitude, determination, common sense and so forth.

Personally i think attitude is everything. With the right attitude everything else is possible.

Uniforms hone some of the qualities i listed above ( i believe). The discipline in preparing the uniform, the attitude in making sure you look smart not because it's required but because you want to.

I have also seen students look disheviled in their uniforms. A slob is still a slob no matter what they wear!

Well this is a good example of why i feel uniforms should be required - i would say that the people you have seen have an attitude problem which probably extends to their flying as well.

I believe in the same way Concorde became the stereotypical image of Aviation when it was flying, i think that uniforms provide that stereotypical image of how people expect pilots will look.

Believe it or not an exceptional amount of people have the utmost respect for pilots, the job we do and hard work we put to achieving our ambitions - and i'm sure if you asked all of them the question - "What would you expect a pilot/pilotess ;-) to look like?" i am sure their answer would not mention "jeans and a t-shirt"...

I think as well that uniforms also cross a psychological boundary in peoples minds - they look and see you are dressed smarter or more polished than them and psychologically they feel confident in your ability (i.e. doctors, lawyers, bankers etc)

So in answer to your point i would say uniforms are required by:

- Pilots (operational) - look professional, establish rank/role, corporate identity etc

- Pilots (under training) - develop desirable attributes, remove social pressures from training, familiarize with rank/role (subtly)

- Walking freight - Instill confidence in pilots abilities to take them from a-b safely and fill that stereotypical placeholder people have when they think of pilots.


Finally - i think that a student who turns up to training well turned out, shined shoes, smartly groomed etc is saying without saying it, that

Attitude is Everything

And I am very sure the unassuming airline recruiter who just happened to pop in for a coffee would agree with them.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

I'm sorry, but whilst alot of arguments can be made legitimately for uniforms at airlines obviously, my own humble opinion for uniforms at FTOs is one of solely corporate image, and has no reflection whatsoever on the quality, or lack of, the students. i.e bit of marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

Students can be good, can be bad and you will always get a combination of both, whether you're uniformed or not. At the end of the day, FTO's will issue uniforms, for the image.

If students need that to be inspired, then that's a pretty poor state of affairs. However, I'm absolutely convinced that some guys look forward to wearing the uniform more than actually doing the day job.

Please believe me guys, that yes, it's a great job, but if image, Raybans, and stripes is what attracts you, then getting up at 0400, delayed by fog, tech a/c, re-positioned by ops after a long duty will soon lose that honeymoon.

But good luck, and do it for the right reasons.

[.Aero]

pilotatlast - There have been 55+ replies to the thread you started and just under 2,000 views. You haven't once posted a single reply since you started the thread, nor have you once thanked those who actually answered your initial question!

My question to you is - Why are you conducting a survey on FTO uniforms and why were youmainly interested in Oxford, Cabair, Jerez, Atlantic?

Did you want to make sure you signed up to an FTO that would make you look wonderful in all your photographs?

Pathetic. :ugh:

Anyone care to start a 'Survey of maintenance engineers work overalls' thread?

[FlyingArab]

:D .Aero well said - I think we've all eaten the poor boy alive! I think he should go into marketing if 'image' is so important to him.

[Finals19]

Think about the amount of people in aviation who have an attitude problem. They have never done military service or experienced working within a discipline / rank role environment - is the time for them to learn when they get to the airlines or is it best to remove the ruts during training?

AHMC...

Are you actually working for an airline? Sorry mate, but the above is just plain wrong IMHO. In my sordid past I spent several years working for a large national flag carrier, and can honestly say that it was often the OPPOSITE of what you are stating - in other words I met more than one or two ex RAF guys who had more attitude than your average civvy street pilot exactly BECAUSE of the behavioural "rank and file" conditioning that the forces had given them (not going to get into a p*ssing match on that one, because I also met some great ex RAF guys)

I agree that professionalism and recognition/respect (note I don't use the word DISCIPLINE - its 2007 and CRM does rule) for authority gradient are important in the modern pilot, but these things should come naturally - if you need to wear a uniform and be spoon fed in your FTO to understand this, then you really shouldn't be a professional pilot in the first place!

[The Mixmaster]

AHMC, with your attention to high standards you'd be excellent at delivering our airline's grooming checks:D

[Gullyone]

Having spoken to a few students today at an FTO with uniforms they all say its OK, easy to decide what to wear, have not even noticed or don't care about the modular/intergrated differences and think its all a good preparation for the airline world. So whatever the guys with a chip on their shoulder think about the FTO uniform debate, for the people that matter all is well in the world.

[AHMC]

Mixmaster - Cheers Buddy - If that's a subtle job offer then PM with more Info, might help pay off some training loans... - i presume you would be my line manager (Head of Airline Grooming Checks)? :p:p;):)

Finals19 - almost at the airlines mate - cheers for asking - not far to go. My father was an airline pilot for 30+ years and taught me an awful lot about the workings and combining that with what i have seen and learnt so far within my own training to become an airline pilot - i merely offer my humble opinion, like yourself.


Regarding your point - it's swings and roundabouts really - i should have put the word "probably" so it read...

They probably have never done...etcThere are always going to be the odd exceptions.

It got me thinking about why the forces have initial basic training? - what is it there for? is it about attitude correction/re-shaping? etc... What is training supposed to do?

Finals19 - note I don't use the word DISCIPLINE - its 2007 and CRM does ruleI'm not sure why you seem afraid to use the word Discipline? - you're quite right it is 2007 and it still seems a perfectly valid word to me - when used in the right context.;)

If you actually read my posts you should see that i am proposing the following regarding why uniforms should be/are worn....


- Pilots (operational) - look professional, establish rank/role, corporate identity etc

- Pilots (under training) - develop desirable attributes, remove social pressures from training, familiarize with rank/role (subtly)

- Walking freight - Instill confidence in pilots abilities to take them from a-b safely and fill that stereotypical placeholder people have when they think of pilots.
Note - i never said that people need to wear uniforms to become better pilots rather my point was that they wear them for the above reasons.


In a nutshell - it's not so much what is worn but rather the way its worn -> i.e. attitude.

Finals19 - I agree that professionalism and recognition/respect (note I don't use the word DISCIPLINE - its 2007 and CRM does rule) for authority gradient are important in the modern pilot, but these things should come naturally - if you need to wear a uniform and be spoon fed in your FTO to understand this, then you really shouldn't be a professional pilot in the first place!I agree with your point here but i also agree that a uniform helps with professionalism (because isn't it professionalism to look the part as well as talk and act it?)

I don't think people need a uniform to understand this - i think uniforms help to re-enforce all of these points during training - a bit like diagrams in a book.

Plus i think for training pilots everything needs be accentuated because you're there to learn properly - are you not? It reminds me of when i did my CPL - it wasn't so much the flying that was being taught but rather the attitude of the commercial pilot. Factors such as getting from a-b as directly as possible, as safe as possible in the least time possible, as cost effectively as possible.

Suggestions were also made that we should wear a pilot shirt and tie (which i did anyway - surprise surprise:D;)) for the skills test. Low and behold when i met the examiner on the morning of the test it was like BANG! Hi as*ho!e i'm the examiner and YOU are the one i am examining - He was wearing 4 bars and was very expectant on uniform as it demonstrated facets of professionalism and the right mental attitude etc.

[The Mixmaster]

If that's a subtle job offer then PM with more Info, might help pay off some training loans... - i presume you would be my line manager (Head of Airline Grooming Checks)?

Touché AHMC there is a bit of humour in you! But seriously, aside from the point that the uniform is there to make students of flight school 'appear' more professional and marketable to the outside world. There really is no need for them. Do people doing law degree's wear suits cut from Savile Row?

note to self - must make irony more obvious in future:}

[AHMC]

Mixmaster - good point.

I'm inclined to agree - they are not needed to fly an aeroplane but should we say add the polish to different aspects of the pilot training regime.

Although saying that we could make the same point for the flight deck - we could just say that the guy/gal sat in the LHS is the skipper.

I don't know... - maybe we all have too much time on our hands :)

Touché AHMC there is a bit of humour in you!

he he.. well i'm not a total stickler - you've got to have a little humour in this life :)

[aviationdreams91]

anybody here training in stapleford ?? i was just wondering if they do give a uniform or students buy them from anywhere :)