Ops Pay.......

[darktan]

What is the industry standard pay for Ops, it seems to be so varied across the field from what I can find out 21K seems the norm. Does being licensed result in a bigger pay packet.

[waco]

No-one can work in ops (or crewing) for the money......
Don't know anyone who gets more with a licence either.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

Especially to all the ops and crewing people who have managed to get through this stretch of mega wx - its been fun - not.

2001 - we are supposed to be living on the moon - yet we cannot successfully heat de-ice fluid.

[offload]

darktan
Re ops - no licences required uk - just the desire to work in an environment with lots of soft and smelly stuff flying around (much of which sticks).
I'm now looking at rejoining ops or dispatch - have found huge geographical pay differentials - THAT'S the norm.
Happy New Year to all - off to the pub now.
Giz a job.

[SuperSonic theHedgehog]

21k!?! i need to be promoted!

http://www.angelfire.com/sk/sonicknuckles/images/sonicplane.gif



[This message has been edited by SuperSonic theHedgehog (edited 02 January 2001).]

[KYGMSY]

21k are you serious, for that I'd need a rise of 14k !!!

[VP8]

It's the 21k that's keeping me at Looton,if I could get a job back oop north on't same rate I'd move back up there tomorrow...

C y'all

VP8

[Mad-Dog11]

I get 20k a year plus 1k for my FAA

[lalapanzi]

VP8 - now it's not that bad. What would you rather be, just another face in the crowd? http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/owen/council.gif or joker in the pack http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/owen/jester.gif

Now don't be using all the internet time tonight http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net5/azzangel.gif Don't want RS being upset in the morning.

[Juliet November]

DHL dispatch CPH hub. DKK 320.000 pa + pension. Approx UKP 30K, but tax in the 55 - 60 % bracket.

[Whooaahh]

Jesus...Someone out there is on 7K a year.

As an ex-dispatcher you have my total sympathy. Personally I wouldn't get out of bed for that and I don't see why you should either.

If anyone is looking to get out of Dispatch/Crewing/Ops and earn some real money ( Circa. £29K + performance bonus' ) selling FltOps related IT systems, email your CV.

I'm looking for about 5 years experience, good industry knowledge and self motivated. London area or wherever you are now, home based if absolutely neccessary. Sales area Scandinavia to Cape Town and Sri Lanka to Canary Islands so plenty of opportunty to travel.

All CV's handled with strictest confidence.

Whooaahh!!!

[KYGMSY]

Whooaahhhh,

I have to get out of bed whatever the time of night whenever a job comes in.

Also on call 24/7.

29k sounds very tempting.

[SuperSonic theHedgehog]

where i work theres only two of use running ops at any 1 time and i'm on 9500 per year as a d.o.
is this good or crap pay because its my first job in aviation so i'm not sure how to compare!

http://www.angelfire.com/sk/sonicknuckles/images/sonicplane.gif

[Whooaahh]

Trust me...9.5K is crap for a DO.

Following my previous post I expected to be flooded with CV's, but only 4 so far!!

The last time we publicly advertised we got over 60 applicants for 1 vacancy, mine!!! So far these vacancies have only been posted here in PPRuNe so come on guy's...£29K is not to be sniffed at. The performance bonus is another 35% or £10,150K and, Oh, did I mention the Performance Related Shares issue as well?

Think about it, we will pay you to trawl the patch for a couple of years..introducing yourself to as many Ops Managers as you can get appointments with. How many prospective future employers already know your face??

Whooaahh!!!

[You splitter]

Wooaahh,

At work at the moment, but rest assured, once I get home my C.V will be winging it's way down the copper wire to you.

Whilst on the subject £23-26,000 depending on allowances etc.

[dakar]

Sonic

Not even our Ops Assistants are that low paid.

Keep Smilin

[offload]

Why do we do it?
It can't be for the money, surely.
Take my case.
April 2000 relocated to SW England - left VS traffic LHR c20K.
No aviation jobs immediately available down here - walked straight into a rail company
as a branch-line conductor, no rail experience - 2 months training - c17K plus a little commission. Virgin and First GW paying c19.5k plus comm for 'train managers' (CSDs or IFSs of rail - conductor). Branch drivers c23.5K main-line intercity c29-32k (again no rail exp necessary - one year training).
Why do I still apply for aviation jobs? Beacause I'm barkin' f**kin' mad that's why.
It's not the money - it's in the blood. Would I work in aviation for 9-12K? No.
That is exploitation and I am now only too well aware of companies paying this sort of money. Why am I telling you this? I don't know - perhaps to advise the younger types among you that unless you're going flying, aviation is maybe not a good career move. Look elsewhere in the real world and
GIVE THE SAD OLD BAS**RDS SUCH AS MYSELF MORE OF A CHANCE!
Now GIZ A JOB!

[Stirling]

Offload !

Very amused by your post and slightly saddened to hear this industry has fallen so far behind in terms of pay. I think we've all seen this happening for a long time now but have chosen to ignore it and hope for the best..but I have to ask you one question..are the staff travel perks and uniforms any better ?!?

Luv of the job..I think so cause it cant be much else

[offload]

Well, you'll never beat the VS staff travel package (7 free sub-load returns VS network after 6 months service) but hey, now I get a maroon coloured blazer (never worn) and I can travel anywhere in the SW and Wales in a stinking, filthy cattle truck for free.
But just give me one 100% subload after 12 months and I'll be perfectly happy (of even just unlimited 90%).
I deal quite well with the stress of trying to get on a heavily oversold LAX in summer time. (more tips - always check booked loads and make sure you know someone who knows someone)

[Stirling]

Maroon coloured blazers and the chance to visit Wales on a regular basis, no doubt with crap overpriced coffe !! I can see why you left VS.

It does tend to p**s me off slightly at the lack of financial incentives payed out these days compared to similar roles elsewhere, but then again, you hit the nail mentioning heavily subsidised flights as a major perk which, personally, I use to the absolute full. It's not all bad.........

One day I'll get a proper job, but, until then, I'm off to plan my next holiday !!

[dakar]

Stirling,

Good to see that someone else uses their travel concessions to the utmost. I have to admit that this is one reason to stay in this job. If it wasn't for having the opportunity I would have never been able to visit all the different parts of the world and be stuck days on end waiting for a spare seat.

You must be being paid top wack.

[Stirling]

Top Wack...this is the Ops forum, right??

Sadly not as much as I feel the job deserves sometimes - anyone heard that before ?!

Just careful planning and lots of o/t I'm afraid Dakar

[KYGMSY]

Bloody Hell am I the worst paid out there !!!!

I'm on LESS than 7k !

[darktan]

From what I a reading Operations seems to be the most screwed up trade to be in with no structure or control, yet the pilots we spend our lives controlling have got more procedures and standardisation to look after them and their career’s than you can shake a s**ty stick at. Why has this not rubbed of on us under paid and overworked skivvies.

[Out Of Trim]

KYGMSY Yes.. I think you'd better look elsewhere - How can you live on 7K? I would think you would find average salary starting around 13 - 14K plus overtime.. at least, in the London Area.

[aussie ops chick]

Any feedback on Australian standards?

[KYGMSY]

OK is anyone offering an ops position in the North West with a salary of over 7k ?

Cheers

[DVR8M]

I've been lurking around this forum for quite awhile, thought it was about time i said something.

I work in operations, as a lowly ops assistant. I earn 12K a year plus overtime.
Is this good or bad?

I think it's quite poor and should get paid more, but i suppose everybody thinks that.

Bye the way a big hello to all you ops people out there.

Cheerio

[ops.com]

This is one crazy career, I take it all you under paid Ops assistance are working for flying schools and only doing it to one day get a flying job if not you are being screwed.
I worked for a small charter company in N London as a DO, who paid 21k + shift allowances. I believe the big Airlines are paying big Bucks due to the stress. However GA is far more stressfull take it from me. I read a few months back on this forum that Scot Airways @ CBG are paying 23k+ to their DO`s. And that ain`t what I call stress……….I have been in this buisiness 12 years and boy does it need a good kick up the arse.


[This message has been edited by ops.com (edited 07 January 2001).]

[offload]

DVR8M
Depends on where you are and what you do.
If essentially only flightwatch - 14-16K London area.
If hands on fleet juggling - 19-21K London area. Anywhere else in the UK they seem to pay whatever they can get away with.
Whooaahh
Don't know too much about Flt/Ops related IT systems but I can sell you a cheap day return to Weston-super-Mare - how about it?

[DVR8M]

-Offload-

I suppose my pays not to bad then, considering i work in the North West at MAN.

I enjoy my job, it's the best i've ever had and if i did'nt want it then there's a flood of people out there that would soon want to take my place.

[Fred West]

GA operations have got to be the future for big money. Accountants run the big operators and all the managers’ care about is image and their next promotion. GA is all-out keeping the jets in the air 24hrs a day by people who have contact with all aspects of the business. A good Ops DO is worth his weight in gold. I believe as aviation gets more high tech, And we all have a licence to prove we know what we are doing, we will get a salary to justify the hard work we all do behind the scenes.

Ohhh is that the time only 6 more hrs to go……………coffee please

[KYGMSY]

DVR8M :

12k sounds great to me.

[FH Desp]

In my part of the tropics a new FD asst gets about 9-10k and I average 20k after 5yrs and an average of 40hrs OT a mth.
I think I work too hard but the pay is reasonable.
I also have no prev exp or ops quals - only my lowly 4 GCSE's
It's not bad till you have to find somewhere to live but that's another story!

[Mad-Dog11]

Our dispatch assistants get 16k (after probation) Our dispatchers get 20k plus an additional 1k for our FAA licence. Yet we still get people turning jobs down cos of the money!! We also send people on their FAA course in Dallas, saving them 3000 quid, yet some people are never happy!

------------------
There she goes........

[dakar]

It appears that the main pay is around the late teens to early twenties mark. We all do it for the enjoyment of working in a department that changes by the day and by situation, no two days will ever be the same, whether it be due to weather / technical disruption or sorting out the crews lost hats and car keys. It does make me wonder, what is after Ops, where do we go? What are peoples aspirations? Do we stay in the job hoping for promotion into the that position of Ops Manager or remain at that glorified lost property position?

I myself have worked in Ops for over 10 years, working my way up from an assitants level to that of a Duty Manager, but what and where i go from now is a mystery

[Enter after the Virgin]

I here Air Partner (Aircraft Broker) are looking for Operations staff at their worldwide head office at Gatwick, the details look interesting for someone with a desire to broker at the same time as doing ops ?.

Pay seems reasonable. suggest sending CV's to [email protected]
Attn: Mark Gathercole

[Charlie_Big_Potato]

My mate went for a job at Air Partner and the money was crap - 10k a year for an ops assistant in the LGW area .....

[152]

Mad-Dog11,

If you don't mind me asking, who do you work for?
If you don't want to say here please e-mail me.

152

[no sig]

Dakar

You've just started mate, 10 years should have given you a solid grounding in the operations of an airline, now have a look around you and consider what you have to offer your current airline or most likely another. Ops management, airfield ops, sales or marketing for some broker or aviation related organisation. Dispatching for some outfit in the middle east. Ops is a great place to start, you've probably paid your dues- now is the time to look around you and if you are prepared to move chances are good you find something to get your teeth into.

Good Luck

[Wolf-In-Sheeps Clothing]

Well seems I might just say something as well! ;)
I moved from the S.W (from a small regional company where image comes before the personnel as usual!)to a charter airline right opposite Air Partner (quite literally, over the road!)Everyone was gobsmacked to say the least when I told them what we in JY (Doh!) were earning. Assistants are on approx. £8.5K. :rolleyes: As a crewing bod I was then on £10k http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif and to rise to what I'm now on (using the crap JY payband/increments) would have taken 3 years!
Alright, so I wish to work in Ops, but I'm damned glad I changed companys!!
This is when there should be an Ops/Crewing Trade Union, which should provide back-up just as Flight Deck get from BALPA. However, I don't think the Commitee Against Aviation would like that (or Management!).
P.S Is anyone who attended the UKOMA Ops course in BOH April '99, Ppruners'?
Get in touch!!! ;);D

------------------

[offload]

Wolf-In-Sheeps clothing
I need some info on JY - if you get a moment, please mail me with your e-mail address.
offload

[matelot19]

Guys,

I totally agree with the need for a Union for us guys on the ground.

How would we get one started??

Anyone else interested??

Later

Matelot

------------------
"You want WHAT for WHEN, Capt????"

[Wolf-In-Sheeps Clothing]

OffLoad,
ARE YOU STARK RAVING MAD! You really want to work for JY! In Ops?! Considering the work-load and pay then I really don't think you do! There is a "No Thanks to Ops.." policy (unless that is industry wide?!)and the wages are a joke!
But I have now included my E-Mail address if you wish to contact me.

Ops/Crewing Union? Are there any more comments or suggestions?


------------------
Watch Out....
You maybe flying too low Captain!

[offload]

Wolf,
Will e-mail u shortly.
On the subject of unionisation though - didn't there used to be a British Guild of Flight Ops Officers? (we're talking late 70s early 80s here) I was never involved so I don't know if they had any political tendancies of if perhaps they were just an 'old boys' club - don't know if they still exist.
offload - go on, giz one

[Deep Float]

Matelot, Mad Dog,

You sure about the union thingie?
It means working according to the rules....
...and that means no more 12-hour shifts!!

I'm more interested in other things other than salary. How many holidays do you guys get out there? And other things like holiday pay and other bonuses?

Now we're talking!

**never happy**

[Mad-Dog11]

Hello Deep Float...

I never said anything about the union - that was Matelot! However, seeing as we are on the subject 12 hours is nothing to me. I prefer working 12hour shifts on a 4on/4off basis. The salary I think is pretty good, especially when u look at some of the others on here.

Anyway, have a good weekend Deep Float and i'll see you nice and early on Monday morning!!

[Pavetack]

Deep Float

You must be a Pilot coz Pilot's are a bunch of Mummies Boys (Especially Foreigners) unable to work a 12 hour shift. If you want to work an 8 hour shift then you should reconsider alternative employment (i.e. McDonalds restaurants).

FAA Lic Dispatchers are what is known as "REAL MEN" unlike flyers.

On ther matter of more pay and bonuses, if you want more than you have to work for it instead of watching TV on your night shifts.

Regards

Pave

[Pavetack]

Hi Mad Dog

How's it going ? I agree with you about the 12 hour shift pattern "ITS NOTHING" to us MEN unlike Deep Float, I think he is from Holland ??. Anyway If a dispatcher can't hack a 12 hour shift then he/she should not in this game.

As far the Union goes "Forget it" there aint going to no union formed in the company I work for..

Regards

Pave

[G-WIZZ]

Hi to all the grafters!

I was doing 4on 4off then my ops bosses
decided we should do 8hr 6on 4off!!
Now this ops dept in STN makes us do more hours a year and get less days off

NOT GOOD

[Pavetack]

G-Wizz

Thanxs for the message, now I hope Deep Float understands that doing 8 hrs is not such a good thing.

Pave

[Deep Float]

Just for the record: I can't remember saying that I don't want to do 12 hour shifts. I just referred to the FAA rule that FAA dispatchers shouldn't be rostered for shifts longer than 10 hours. And if you would be unionised then you might have to adhere to similar rules. That's all.
But if some of you lack the capacity to read a post and then just start foreigner-bashing, then fine. Just remember that PPrune is an international forum. Keep it cool and professional, including you language. It doesn't look very good on us if someone finds out who we're working for.

[Vodka]

Errrrr.....
I thought this thread was about ops pay!!
seem to be going a bit off-course!!

[Pavetack]

Deep Float

Ref your last message. Are you a FAA Lic Dispatcher ?? Does the 10 Hour rule really apply to you ?? And for your information the 10 hour rule does not apply in the UK does it now ??

Pave

[Deep Float]

Vodka, I completely agree with you.

Let's get back the issue. Mad-Dog answered mine.

[G-WIZZ]

I believe its time ops bods here in the uk started getting wages that reflect the responsibilities put on them !!
not only financial recognition but a proper licencing system similar to the FAA
I've only been in ops for 6 years but i know colleagues who have been going on about this for decades!
For your info ops get 16-22K here at my outfit in STN
Whats the average in US ??

(ok i took the city&guilds but it would be nice to get proper CAA paperwork!!)

KEEP SMILING

[Mad-Dog11]

Hello everyone again!
Didnt mean to start a riot by saying i like 12-hour shifts - thats just my preference and i know everyone is different. Just out of interest, what kind of shifts does everyone work out there, and also what holidays does everyone get? Myself i work 4on 4 off and get 16 days a year. Is this normal??

Enjoy the rest of your weekend everyone

[Re-Route]

myself i also prefer 12 hour shifts and work on a 3 on 3off roster but at the moment i dont do nights. i get around 20days hol
i cover flight planning.

[G-WIZZ]

6ON 4OFF & 25 days off a year, so i guess its not too bad!

[VP8]

2days 2 nights 5 off, 2 days 3 nights 4 off,
3days 2 nights 5 off, 26 days hols..

[crossy]

5 on 2 off followed by 4 on 2 off..we get paid 20-24k with rather good travel concesions

[JB007]

Interesting thread...

For all those guys/gals who are not happy with pay in Ops or any Opsbods in general....where do you see yourselves going in say, 3-5 years ?

My personal grind with Ops is the general career enhancement, Ok, so you make Ops Super./Duty Manager, then what..how often do Ops Managers move on these days leaving a space for someone to step into...

Commercial / Marketing seems to be a popular one with many collegues and of course there is flight crew move....

Any thoughts ?

------------------
Hear All...See All...Say Now't.

[Juliet November]

Pavetack,

Are you so lost in your own little world that you fail to appreciate that other people from other countries might happen to operate under different rules ? You see, the world stopped revolving around your pathetic island a f*ing 100 years ago, and has since moved on to a point where they realise that you just can't screw people around and expect them to come back asking for more. Sorry, wasn't meant as a general insult to our brit friends, but really you got to lighten up mate ! (And we'll never forget when the Lord Nelson dude and the audacity to bomb our capital back in 18xx :) )

If you prefer to work 12 hours a day, or if your company orders you to do so, well that's your bloody problem ! And doesn't add to the size of your cojones if you work that long, if I may add. Trust me, I've tried it. Your di*k doesn't grow either, so please try to answer politely if you must say something at all.

Right, that vented I'll get back on the thread:

5 days nights, 7 off. 6 days evening, 7 off. Around 30K UKP at current exchange rate.
30 + 9 days holiday pa. 37 hour week. Max shift 9 hours. Free travel on company a/c, discount on assorted airlines.

[This message has been edited by Juliet November (edited 14 January 2001).]

[offload]

JN
Hope you're not smoking that stuff while you're on the ramp.
JB007
I mentioned elsewhere that if you're not going flying then career prospects are limited. I will add something if I may.
If you are willing to start in either check-in or res and work your way through to supervisor level, the world is your lobster.
Next step in most outfits is some sort of DM level but the mere fact that you have gained contact with SLF, know the product etc, you are on the right road - seen it time after time. Automated Check-in - remember that one - get some in. I was in Ops for eight years and the next step you were expected to take was flight planning after some poor old sod had popped his clogs. I have since seen people on the Airport Services side rise to DM after 4 years - not 'graduate calibre' and no in-house accelerated promotion scheme (although I did see this system operate many years ago - great if you can get on such a scheme - a chap I went to school with and worked in Ops with is now UK big chief for US carrier). Ranting again - must go - remember - get a bit of pax servs behind you if you can. (and giz a job when you see me next).
offload

[Juliet November]

Offload,
Nah, trying to keep smoke & work seperated :)

On the career advancement part, I guess it is mostly dependent on the company you work for. I consider myself lucky to work for a company who doesn't have any SLF's, so advancing thru check-in is, well, not really an option. However, there are several other roads to advancement if you are willing to consider other departments than OPS.

[Pavetack]

JN

Thanxs for your message. What is the problem with ref to the profanity in your message.

Are you a "DANISH KAFFER" you sure sound like one especially if your working for DHL -the worst Cargo carrier around.

Anyway my message was to Deep Float, where did you crawl in from you Ma Ka Bosra, Kuthey Ke Aulad.

Are you some sort of a collaborator with the Nazi's / Krauts, do you not beleive in free speech, I suppose all you Danes are like that Queer and Nasty.

Are you a Lic FAA Dispatcher , if not then you shouldn't be on this forum.

For you information my Tally Whacker grows
just fine unlike yours.

Ok thats all I have at the moment in time.

Oh by the way JN your mother says Hi

[scaramonger]

JN & Pavetack
RED CARD. There is no call for 'racial abuse' on this forum. You have taken this thread beyond what is being discussed.

I enjoy a good lively debate, your recent contributions are anything but!!!!!!! Racial slurs are uncalled for. :mad:

[Pavetack]

Scarry W***ker

Who asked you to BUTT in this between JN & ME
he is just not man enough to come and fight me. I suppose all these Danes are P*****s.

These are not racial slurs - just operational titles in SOUF EFFRIKA - something that you Britis wouldn't understand. Stiff upper lip and possibly D**K

[Wolf-In-Sheeps Clothing]

Hey!
Shall we just take a Chill Pill, and settle down a wee minute :rolleyes:! Struth aren't we just getting a little stressed here? The subject is Ops pay, NOT, disputes between "rival" individuals ;). We are supposed to be backing each other up(aren't we?!) http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif
I think that the pay should be structured, as such, to show the amount of work-load and to a certain degree, the area that each operation is centred on. I won't start giving examples, I'm sure that you've got the "gist" of what I mean.
Every airline seems to have a varied pay structure and sometimes appears to think that an Ops/Crewing officer will be on the same level as "A N Other" office pleb who works Nine-to-Five and knows Zip about how an airline works. Pay should be structured on 1. Experience
2. Qualifications
3. Apptitude for the job
Of course this is not in order of preference.
Any opinions?!


------------------
Watch Out....
You maybe flying too low Captain!

[Homer Simson]

3 ways to improve operations:

1 Stop wanabee pilots getting into Ops and working for next to nothing making it hard for us whom want to make it a career.

2 Ops DO`s should have a license. (If you work for schedule/charter airline)

3 have industry standard names for our jobs
(Ops DO in an airline is not quite the same as Ops DO at a flying school so why give it the same name).

This is not a “I hate pilots plot” but I think if it is just a stepping stone to fly then stick to flying schools…



[This message has been edited by Homer Simson (edited 16 January 2001).]

[Structure]

-Homer Simson-
Stopping wannabe pilots getting into ops would'nt necessarily improve an operations dept. Some wannabe pilots i know are excellent at there job and deserve to have it and are better at it than those who have no ambition in life.
Also not everybody's pay is 'next to nothing'
Yours might be though?

[Homer Simson]

I take it you are or were a wannabe.. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Any way I think you miss my point its like a wannabe formula 1 driver working for a taxi company, bad example I know but I do believe if you wanna fly then fly don’t be exploited by these company’s...
I have worked with some very good wannabe pilots. But that doesn’t sort out the problems we encounter in this totally unregulated trade.

[Wolf-In-Sheeps Clothing]

Just thought I would put this bit in before I go off Shift!

-The United Kingdom Operations Managers Association-

This appears to be the only "regulatory" group for Ops/Crewing.
However, its run by......our Managers!
who........regulate our wages!
These circles get smaller and tighter......

Whos' on shift tonight then?

See Ya Later

------------------
Watch Out....
To Err is Human....
To Forgive is not Company policy...!

[OPS GIMP]

FOR ALL YOU UNDERPAYED OPS STAFF
IF ANYONES INTRESTED
JOB GOING FOR A CREWING DUTY OFFICER AT OUR PLACE 20kISH AND NICE WEATHER

PASS YOUR CV'S
TO [email protected]

[Mdet]

With the airline I work for, the starting position in Ops pays about 15k a year plus shift with about 28 days leave a year. I personally don't understand why it is such a poorly paid and un-appreciated job, working in Ops. You could earn a lot more doing other jobs outside the industry that require you to have little or no qualifications, but I suppose, as has been said before, it is the thrill and enjoyment that keeps us there.

But for how long??? The career path in most airlines, does not provide great opportunities like other industries. It is no wonder that a lot of us working in Ops set our ambitions on flying for a living where there is a more exciting career path that is recognised and rewarded for by the company.

I think ops needs to become regulated in some way, and forming some kind of union may help push this.

Cheers

[Juliet November]

Pavetack,

I'll pass your infantile remarks in utter silence.

To your only question: No, I'm not an FAA licensed dispatcher. I'm licensed by the danish civil aviation auth.

Homer Simpson,

Quite agree with the wannabe pilots. We've had the "pleasure" of having quite a few of them in the department, and just when they've reached a satisfactory level they're off for a flying job and we can start all over training a new guy. After a while that gets kind of boring. So to end that regime, the lot of us (dispatchers / rostering / flightwatch / loadcontrol) approached management and "advised" them of how we felt about that policy. And they've stopped hiring wannabees, which has worked wonders for the department and thus the product we deliver is far better than previous.

I get the feeling that some, if not most, of you guys feel unappreciated by the companies you work for. Maybe not on a personal level, but there is not much in the way of respect for the jobs you do. Is this something generic to british aviation ? Where I'm from the entire operation, be that flightcrews, rostering, despatch, loadcontrol etc, is seen as a team. Surely, some pilots have a "superiority complex" but it doesn't go well with management, and as such the feeling of being in it together is what dominates the way we do business. Maybe we're just lucky, or maybe it's something you need to work on with your respective companies.

[G-WIZZ]

Now I'm not sticking up for the wannabe pilots they are big enough to look after themselves!
BUT its not just these people that start and move on to other things, unfortunately because of the way some airlines treat their ops bods, everybody from all backgrounds feel they would be better off jumping ship.
Which is annoying for those left to train the new ones, no disrespect to those who are starting out, we've all been there!!

ANYONE SEEN THE OPS MANAGER ?????

[Margret Thatcher]

What industry has as many changes and ups and down as aviation how can anybody slag it of. I work for a company that’s 24/7, 5 OP’s DO`s working 4on, 5off, 5on, 4off, 25days holiday, 21K + overtime for a job I love.
And if the seats are not all full free travel. Wake up and smell the coffee guys/gals.

Oh and stop giving ops jobs to fly by night Wannabe pilots I’m sick of training them. I don’t know why they always know better anyhow.

Keep those chairs warm....

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Wolf-In-Sheeps Clothing]

O.K the Maggie, how do you get a job with VS?

What is the problem with Pay within this sector?
Why can't there be an industry standard?
How can people actually afford housing (to buy, not rent) when wages are so varied?

Personally I'm gonna start my C&G A.S.A.P get some more experience and then go for my FAA Disp.
It just so happens I have a PPL and enjoy flying, but flying a load of Coffin-Dodgers to AGP or sitting down systems checking for 12 to hours to LAX (or whereever) doesn't really appeal. But telling the blighters what we want them to do DOES!!

------------------
Watch Out....
To Err is Human....
To Forgive is not Company policy...!

[no sig]

I'll defend hiring of wannabes, usually they are dedicated to aviation, often with frozen CPL's/ATPL which give them a good grounding in the studies and almost without fail are very good at the job. They hold the position for a few years while they get their hours and, as the world turns, they move on to a flying job where their background in Ops and Crewing often balances their view when they are on the other side of the fence.

Rarely does it prevent someone not getting a job if equally qualified applicants are available. We've got three in our department all excellent, been with us at least two years each and probably another year or so before they move on.

[Pavetack]

JN

Got any jobs going at your place in CPH.

Pave

[Albert Slong]

If all ops DO`s were trained to ATPL standards this industry will improve without a doubt, Everybody could trust each other to do their job properly...

In the USA the average pay for a flight deck dispatcher is £30K due to their FAA license.

PS I am not a pilot, though I wish I was just need loads and loads of wonga.

“Keep shining those armrests” :)

[crossy]

Some sort of recognition would be great, especially as the FAA inspectors give us a good grilling at least twice a year with our paperwork. I like the idea of a DO license. Could help with the wages aswell.

[Jump Seat Rider]

It would be interesting to hear the views of a UK CAA Flight Ops Inspector as to whether Ops staff should be licenced and whether they feel pay scales are sufficient in light of the level of responsibilities.

So, anyone from the Campaign Against Aviation willing to divulge opinions ??

[Juliet November]

Pavetack,

You amaze me mate ! Was under the impression that you hated Denmark and danes. But if the attitude you've displayed in your earlier replies was a consequence of sleep deprevation or something exuseable, I don't see why not. However, if your not an EU citizen it's not possible, unless you marry a dane (male or female, doesn't matter :) )

But, yes, we are currently looking for a flightwatch / loadcontrol agent. So prove to me that your temper won't get the better of you, and I shall be delighted to pass on your CV to Human Remains.

[scaramonger]

Depavetack - to answer your question you did.
So what category are you ' white kaffir' or munto? Either doesn't matter actually, you're an unprofessional pratt.
totsiens

[vipero]

Reading the posts it seems that every country is the same...Wannabe pilots working at ops and pursers paied more than dispatchers...
Boys, we're a group of dispatchers/ops controllers/crewing staff working in Italy and the story is always the same: pilots and cabin crews do not even know their names if we are not telling'em...
Ciao!

[AWACS FE]

Well lads, doesn't look as though 50k is on then the books then, eh?

[Iceman80]

I have been in Ops for 9 months now and it is my first aviation job. I was drawn to this subject purely out of intrest to see if there was a "norm". FYI I am a Ops Assistant and I am currently on 15K would this seem normal?

------------------
Thats a fine thing!

[KYGMSY]

Iceman

More than DOUBLE my wages. Count yourself lucky.

[The Flying Lamb]

KYGMSY

7K??? Surely that's not full time? Where are you working.... Ethiopia? The worst I ever got paid was 9500gbp and that was with a naf company..... African cargo outfit - crap hours always on call etc..
Who are you working for?
I have been doing flt ops for nearly 5yrs now and currently get paid 18000gbp plus 3000gbp shift pay. The 'usual' 2days 2night 12hr shifts followed by 4 days off.
If I was you, I would go and work in Macdonalds...... atleast you get a free lunch!

------------------
come, come, come! We'll have no trouble here!!

[KYGMSY]

Flying Lamb :

6.9K actually - piss poor wage, working in the northwest UK. Everyone tells me it's a fantastic wage.

In orifice 5 days per week, on call the rest of the time 24/7.

Do you think Macdonalds would throw in a ppl as well as a free lunch ? If so sounds tempting.

[stopachoppa]

KYGMSY
What sort of outfit are you working for? Training School? Small independent Charter Operator? Can't possibly be any medium / large company can it?
Sorry don't mean to demoralise you even more, but our Office Junior takes home more than that.
I'm in office 5 days, 24/7 call out as well, working 7 days most weeks from April - September. Affectionately titled Ops assistant (although I actually do more than the OM), Quality Manager, Flight Safety Officer, Health & Safety Officer and IT Manager all rolled into one.
Basic pay £16000, been with this mob 4 years.
And I know it's c**p pay, but if you love the job.....

[Thrust Bump]

stopachoppa

SUCKER !!! :rolleyes:

[KYGMSY]

stopachoppa :

Working for small charter operation. Like you I'm Ops assistant and IT Manager. Hey that makes things worse.....

[roger out]

NE England-based airline -

Controller - £13600
Officer - £8500

Twelve-hour shifts, 4on/4off days & nights.
One on shift to handle everything.
11 aircraft operating all day, 5 at night.
No shift pay.
No meal/coffee breaks.
No prospects.
No intention of staying a minute longer that I have to!!

[Old and Bold]

If you want a laugh go to:
www.workthing.com (http://www.workthing.com) and put in your details for the salary checker.....
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Thrust Bump]

Old and bold

I'm underpaid http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[Old and Bold]

Me to....off to see the boss first thing£££££

[Hot and Dry]

What total arse if only that was true...£25K to work Ops @ LTN...
KELLY AVIATION don’t even pump out cr*p like that.......or do they!!!!!!!

[Jump Seat Rider]

Hot and Dry

Kelly do actually......... :rolleyes:

[Hot and Dry]

www.workthing.com (http://www.workthing.com)
If this site is correct then this is answer to this thread is….

Average UK salary: £22,227
Highest recorded salary:£40,000

[Groundhog Day]

Not as bizarre as you think I have just pulled a job with a charter operator N London 23K + shift allowance + pension option and share save.... So things are looking up for us all....... :) :) :)
:) :) :)

Until the next recession that is......


[This message has been edited by Groundhog Day (edited 16 February 2001).]

[simshield]

23K for a chater operator!!!Where and who do I call for an application?

[OC41]

GroundHog day - dont you mean easyjet??

[Mr Green]

I was reading an article at LGW today recommending that Ops Controller’s operating a European AOC should be licensed under JAR and comply with the FAA system to avoid confusion…..Bla Bla Bla. The interesting bit was the recommended pay:

Ops Assistant £17k-19k depending on qualification level
Ramp Agent £21-24k
Flight Deck Dispatch £26k +
Operations Controller £28k + depending on amount of A/C on AOC

Apparently this possible ruling brings all European airlines up to the same level allowing staff to move within the same company around the European community and still receive the same pay.

Pay more to get quality trained staff…… interesting concept for ground operations in Europe.

Mr G

[Bob Smith]

About time most of the controllers here are FAA licensed and it shows. They are all very intelligent people who could earn a handsome salary out side aviation, but they love the job to much to leave. Now all our equipment is computerized and more regulations than you can shake a sh*ty stick at. I personally think all staff working for a company who have an AOC should be licensed under JAR.

Ya Pay Ya money Ya take Ya chance……….

[ROAR]

Mr Green: Which paper or mag did u read all this about the FAA Liscense thing? Sounds very interesting - and I am just wandering what else JAR is going to bring along for OPS people.....

[ROAR]

that's the problem nowadays.....

[vipero]

Unfortunately JAR-Ops do not consider ops staff very much, leaving the company the responsability to have "trained as needed" people...We must still fight for our rights I'm afraid...

Ciao
Paolo

[Foursloscrews]

Talk of JARS producing a dispatchers ticket similar to FAA is a wonderful idea IMHO it wont happen - European carriers wont let it
happen - Simply because it means they would
have to pay more money and finally recognise
that dispatcher/Ops controllers call em what
you will have more responisbility than most of the shirts in the front office and rank equally with the drivers - And that raises
another ugly problem European drivers actually having to acknowledge that some SLOJO back in Ops might know as much as they do ------Perish the thought


Foursloscrews are better than :)

[no sig]

Foursloscrews

You're right it is very unlikely that any FAA Dispatch system would be introduced in the UK or dare I say JAA. But you're mis-guided in your reasons for it not happening. The fligh dispatcher/release system is simply not part of European airline operations, for reasons of aviation history, National identities, and geography. We have Operational Control, the same but different.

Notions that pilots have some fear of well qualified Ops bods is rubbish in my expereince. Most pilots respect a well qualified and expereinced Ops bod and appreciate that they are there to exercise operational control and indeed in doing so support them. I might sight the fact that Capt Pprune has graced us with our own forum on this bulletin board in recognition of the fact that Ops is an essential component of any airline operation.

The pilot slagging I read here at times is testimony to a lack of confidence and arrogance on the part of some in our side of the business.

What I readily acknowledge however, is that we particularly in the UK, lack a standard operations officer accreditation and if the JAA did adopt some licence standard for Ops staff it would indeed be of benefit to the industry, but need have nothing to do with an FAA Dispatch style system. In fact, the ICAO Flight Operations Officer Licence exists already, why reinvent the wheel, simply use it. But for those who want to make a career of airline operations, don't hold your breath for a licence, get out there and do as many ops courses as you can.

[Foursloscrews]

NoSig

Nice answer, Btw I wasnt slagging drivers
well maybe those who deserve it as in
"all you guys do is sit in a nice warm
office and drink coffee----I was flying
when you were still in knee pants ect ect"
Most of the guys we have flying with us as
PIC are younger than me and actually it
works the other way round they actually
seek advice as to routings wx etc, and
normally I preach CRM between dx and
crews. And your correct as far as the
historic reasons why they probably wont
be a JAA ticket.. The reason I quoted was
actually offered by a group of European
Ops bods about two years ago, when I tdy'd
Over there for six months during the summer
season (Which was probably the best thing
that ever happened, it appears few if any
US based dispatchers understand the ways
and vaguries of Eurocontrol , and I got a
good basic grounding in it for that summer.) Finally I fully agree that some
sort of standarization would be a fantastic
thing, not just within Europe but worldwide.
My present beef at the moment is watching
the state of training (in US DX schools)
slowly diminish to the point is that they
are (with certain exceptions) becoming
ticket mills.......I have had new tickets
show up here who cannot even read a Jepp
chart - let alone Boeings AFM runarounds --
WHoops thats a whole nother thread for the
forum ----.

Thanks for to all for letting me rant - and
No Sig - yer right it is a class act that
PPrune gives us our oun forum -

Remember . safety, comfort and economy :)


Fourslosrews are better than......... :)

[no sig]

Fourslosrews

It is a regret that the FAA Licence has indeed diminished in stature in recent years, the ticket factories have a lot to answer for. For me the target must be to have one recognised European accreditaion (not necessarily a licence) for the role of airline operational control or in ICAO terms, the Flight Operations Officer, if it were placed under the JAROPS wing so much the better.

The FAA Licence, albeit a valuable qualification, is in many ways mis-placed and not best suited to the European environment. It would be of significant benefit to JAA Countries were we able to establish an JAR standard, which in fact need only adopt the ICAO recommendation/syllabus as a good starting point. Easily done if there was the will to do so.