Pan pan after engine failue ?

[PompeyPaul]

If you suffer an engine failure, go through the restart procedure and it starts again would you issue a "pan pan" call and head to the nearest airfield ?

I would but thinking about Farnborough or something it would mean a lot of people have to go quiet whilst I get back home.

Is it reasonable to issue a pan pan for an engine that's restarted ?

[dublinpilot]

Depends.

If you know why it stopped, and you've fixed the problem, and know it's not likely to happen again, then no need for a pan call.

If you don't know what the problem was, you managed to start it again, and have no idea if it will continue to run, then yes a pan, or even a mayday would be appropriate.

Engines fail for a reason. If you don't know what the reason was then you probably haven't fixed it, and you have little reason to think that it will continue to run after the restart.

Don't be worried about blocking the frequency. It won't be blocked for long. Once the controller knows about your plight, they can continue to use the frequency as normal if they feel that's appropriate. If they don't feel that's appropriate they can swap to another dedicated frequency. In case, blocking the frequency should be the least of your concerns at the time.

dp

[Vee One...Rotate]

It would depend on if you'd managed to work out why it had stopped and the unique circumstances on the day.

Any particular situation you were thinking of?

[XL319]

Surely if you had an engine failure (depending if it was SEP) and had to make a forced landing it would be a mayday call??

[IO540]

There are very few things which could cause an engine to stop, and which would not be a huge cause for concern even if I got it restarted.

Off hand I can't think of any realistic ones, other than idiot passengers doing something like pulling the mixture lever all the way back.

If the electric fuel pump makes it come back then you have a shredded engine driven fuel pump, with debris floating around, so better land ASAP, if possible somewhere with engineering facilities.

If pulling the alternate air (fuel injected so no carb icing) makes it come back then you have a blocked air filter... not too bad but I would head back somewhere with engineering facilities because short of very heavy rain / snow this should not happen, and has never happened to me in the heaviest rain.

Either way, it's a pan call, at least.

[rustle]

Running a tank dry when the other isn't empty is not a "PAN" or "mayday": It is just silly (unless done purposefully).

[Vee One...Rotate]

One realistic scenario springs to mind - running a tank dry and having the engine stop before clicking what's happened. Once re-started and the problem identified, you'd have no reason to worry about the engine not carrying on as normal.

Embarrassing and character-building but not warranting a pan or mayday (assuming you'd not made one initially) :)

V1R

[Vee One...Rotate]

Just beat me to it rustle!

[aluminium persuader]

If you have an engine failure (assuming SEP) get a Mayday out double-quick. We (radar) can plot your position, give you surface wind, things we may know about the area (eg nearby runways!) and vector a rescue cab to you. Don't worry about phraseology - just "Mayday", C/S and engine-failure will get us going.

If it starts again by all means downgrade to a Pan or cancel altogether if you as the a/c commander feel it's the appropriate course of action. Whatever you do decide, rest assured we'll be keeping a blummin' close eye on you until you're landing of your own volition! Just in case!

ap:\

[rustle]

I know what you mean (I think) aluminium persuader, but the critical SE actions are to establish best glide, go through the memory/QRC re-start checks (including selecting a fuel tank with fuel ;)), look for somewhere to put it down if it hasn't restarted, then talk to someone.

Stalling into the ground whilst talking is never a good plan, so the primary response has to be to fly, then diagnose/fix, then talk.

I'm sure that's what you mean, too :)


Vee One...Rotate, great minds and all that ;)

[aluminium persuader]

Yep - Never said stop flying the plane! ;)

[IFMU]

The school where I got my private SEL and helicopter had this type of scenario. Instructor and a first time student are out in a C152. Engine conks out, probably due to carb ice. Instructor goes through emergency procedures for real, lines up on a good field. Engine springs back to life. "Hot diggety dog!" instructor thinks, beelines back to the home airport (about 10 miles away). Gets out of range of the field, engine quits for good. They land on the entrance ramp of a highway, bust up the 152, nobody hurt. Must have made quite an impression on the first time student, I don't know if she continued or not.

My helo instructor offered a little analysis of this accident. He said the one thing the guy did wrong was to beeline back. From 10 miles away, he would have climbed over the good field until he had a bunch of altitude. Then he would have set off. If the engine conked out during the climb, back to the field he goes, plenty of time to get off a radio call. If it conks out enroute back to home, plenty of glide distance to either get back to the field or the home airport. Easy for us to analyze it after the fact. But maybe that will help our decision making should something similar happen to us.

In a roundabout way, what I'm proposing is that getting off a pan call is less important than thinking about how you are going to safely complete the flight. Aviate, navigate, communicate. Aviate first.

As an aside, I had my only forced landing (not counting gliders) in one of the school's other C152's. Carb ice. Couldn't clear it, ended up at an airport as I had plenty of altitude and partial power rather than a dramatic engine failure. I'm not sure if the 152's are suseptible to carb ice, or if they had maintenance issues. But at least I didn't make the front page of the paper!

-- IFMU

[BackPacker]

From 10 miles away, he would have climbed over the good field until he had a bunch of altitude.

Good point. Had not considered myself and I don't think I would think of it in such a situation.

And obviously, once you've got that mayday out and are squawking 7700, even the class A airways and TMAs above you magically open up for you, don't they?

[IO540]

the critical SE actions are to establish best glide

That's an old one but I wonder where it comes from.

Statistically, a suitable landing site is equally likely to be near or far away.

The nearby option - in fact one nearly below and slightly to the left - is easiest to inspect for suitability.

So, setting up a lowest sink speed, which is considerably slower than Vbg, is likely to be better because it gives you most time to think.

Think about what happens if above an overcast. Vbg makes no sense at all.

Unless you have a GPS and you can see some place you specifically want to glide to, in which case Vbg is the best choice until you are overhead the place, and then set the lowest sink speed.

But even Vbg varies according to wind. For best glide range, with headwind, you want to glide faster than Vbg. With tailwind you want to glide slower than Vbg.

[High Wing Drifter]

IO540, I agree.

However, the rational behind the adoption of best glide is to give you options. My view is that this is justified (at least in part) as it can take a while (relatively speaking!) to assess the best option so initial height is always not negative. Also, getting into to a field you are on top of is not that easy. You could spend some time gliding around which makes judging the height(s) quite tricky because it is harder to assess the relative angle. The other, and possibly better, option is not taught at PPL, but at CPL which is a Vfe and gear out spiral dive (taught primarily for the engine fire scenario, but I was expected to use it whenever). This can require quite an aggressive level of manoeuvering compared to the usual stuff that PPLs are expected to do, but in my experience is much easier to judge for getting into a close in.

Personally, I find PFLs the hardest manoever to complete with a satisfactory level of confidence in the end result. Any situation is going to be tricky, on balance I would go with the received wisdom and go for height first.

On the subject of Mayday. Unlike the Twin Driver scenario, I doubt there is much ATC can do to help. I would say that Mayday is the last thing to do once you are 'locked' on to a field and stable. Trouble is you will probably be below the best height for any RDF.

[rustle]

the critical SE actions are to establish best glide

That's an old one but I wonder where it comes from.

I suspect it comes from a knowledge that in a crisis people tend to revert to a single known pattern of operation, and teaching PPLs one thing to do in the event of an engine failure "trim for best glide" increases the likelihood of them trimming for best glide instantly, rather than thinking about all the permutations of best glide -v- slowest sink rate and crashing.

[aluminium persuader]

High Wing -
Sfc wind, so you can land into it
Alert ground rescue services so they can get there asap
Scramble SAR

Had an a/c went in off an adjacent a/f a few years ago. As it happened he didn't have time to call maydaybut he'd not reported airborne & I just "had a feeling". Quick phone call, found out he'd gone in. Had a Lynx on-site in about 2 mins, SAR in about 5, both occupants in hospital within 30mins.

Also had a Practice Pan more recently - C150, rough-running engine & wanted vectors back to base, about 12 miles. Pointed out a runway on his left by about a mile & PFL commenced.

I'm not in anyway saying call ahead of flying the plane, but I am saying that ATC is a huge resource you can call on. Particularly with single-crew ops, think of us within the CRM envelope.

ap

[High Wing Drifter]

Alu Persauder,

I'm not in anyway saying call ahead of flying the plane, but I am saying that ATC is a huge resource you can call on.
Absolutely. I think my words did suggest possibly otherwise. I'm coming from the angle that a forced landing requires so much concentration that any distractions would probably degrade the pilot's ability to pull it off. Asking for wind is something you would have to do prior to selecting a field, hence a potentially critical delay. The pilot must really be prepared with an estimate based on the 2000' and keep an eye out for local tell tales. Obviously your position for S&R is potentially vital information. But I would not attempt to transmit it until locked on and stable.

[niknak]

In addition to the above, if you have time (and a transponder fitted), squawk 7700.

That way you can get on with the job in hand, every radar unit in the vicinity equipped with SSR (inc. D & D) will know you've got a problem and even if you don't get a chance to speak before you land, we'll know where you are be able to direct help to you.

[Mariner9]

I've always wondered what happens in ATC when emergency code is squawked. Does it sound an audible alarm, or highlight the contact on the screen, or simply rely on the controller spotting the relevant codes amongst the myriad squawks on his 'scope?

[bjornhall]

A few of our newer planes have a remote ELT switch on the panel; last item on the engine out checklist is to switch it on (in the air). Suppose if too busy for a chat we could at least have time to flick that switch, even faster than messing around with the transponder... But would be interested to hear what the ATC people say; how much good would it do us to just switch on the ELT before landing?

[Il Duce]

Bjornhall, the ELT should be picked up by D&D if you are in the air and by airborne aircraft once you are on the ground (or water). In the second case, pilots of aircraft hearing an ELT would normally report it to the ATC agency they are working who relay that to D&D. If that's the first notice that D&D have of it, they'll relay that information to the rescue coordination centre and a satellite fix on the ELT's location is the next step.
I'd also echo the advice on page 1 to select 7700 on the squawk, if you have the time.

[Troy McClure]

Interesting points about best glide speed and best endurance speed. I tend to mix the two up when teaching PFL's using words like 'Carb heat hot (cos most likely cause is ice), then trim for best glide speed to buy you some time to think while you consider wind and look for field.' Checks and Mayday call then secondary - fly the aeroplane first.

Thinking about it, 'Trim for best glide speed to buy you some time to think' is wrong. I should be saying 'best endurance speed'.

Presumably in a real life situation, the two speeds are likely to be within a knot or two of each other anyway. The main point is not to allow height to disappear as you descend at 100+ knots, or try to hold nose up with elevator (ie not trim) and run the risk of stalling while you're distracted with looking for a field, doing checks, making RT call, etc. Best glide is usually faster than best endurance, it's usually a familiar speed (about the same as normal approach speed), and in everything I've instructed on equates to pretty much the S+L 'picture', so it just 'feels' safe.

On several (demo) PFLs I've chopped the throttle on myself at less than 1000' AGL on the go-around from a student's PFL attempt and it's no harder (and often easier) then doing the same at 3000'+, assuming you're not over a city, water, forest etc. 'There's a field', into wind, full flap, mixture lean, swear over the radio with the word Mayday for good measure and drive the thing in. Worry about why it stopped once you're safely on the ground.

As for wind direction, I teach the 'Which runway did I take off from and was there a x-wind and if so from which side?' technique as a rough guide to surface wind.

Incidentally, on a recent tower visit, a military transit had an RT fail and appeared as a flashing 7600 next to the secondary return. On that particular radar set up, I was told that a 7700 squawk would flash in the same way.

[Life's a Beech]

Statistically, a suitable landing site is equally likely to be near or far away.Your geometry is incorrect. To take a simple case, between 2 and 4 miles you have 3 times the area you have between immediately below and 2 miles. As you glide further you also have the option of returning to where you started, so in fact if you double the glide range you have 4 times the options.

[Nathan Parker]

Presumably in a real life situation, the two speeds are likely to be within a knot or two of each other anyway.

Theory says that the speed of minimum power required (best endurance) is .76 * Vldmax. That would put it roughly at 50 knots in a C172R.

[IFMU]

the critical SE actions are to establish best glide

That's an old one but I wonder where it comes from.

Minimum sink is usually just a few knots above the stall burble. Yes, it will give you more time. Does it make sense to cruise through the undercast at minimum sink? I don't think so. Partly because you don't know when you are going to find the ground. When you are about to find it, you need some airspeed to trade off and arrest the descent rate. Even us glider pilots, who spend a lot of time thermaling at minimum sink, don't fly it to the ground. In the pattern we speed up to the best L/D or maybe above. Not because we care about our L/D performance at that point, in fact we are screwing it all up by extending some portion of our spoilers. But we need the energy, the airspeed so we can arrest the descent rate and make a good landing.

I had often argued against the single-minded 'go to best glide speed after an engine failure' training after I got my glider rating. Like IO540 says, those speeds are dependent upon wind. They are also dependent upon weight. But as I think about it, trimming for best glide does provide some safety against the stall at the bottom. If you end up in a bad spot it is better to crash well, with minimum descent rate and speed, rather than stall and drop it in.

Sure, if you are high and trim up for minimum sink speed, you have more time to think and troubleshoot. Probably not a lot more time. And, will you remember at the bottom to speed up again to have that airspeed for the flare? I might, after all that's what I do in gliders. But would the average Joe, as he ended up close to the ground, think to push the nose over and get the speed back up as the ground was rising to smite him? It is counter intuative, especially in a genuine emergency situation.

Back to the thread, there is one other psychological benefit of declaring a pan in this scenario, or at least telling air traffic control about it. When you admit a problem to the controllers, then you have admitted it to yourself. I wonder if the instructor from my old flight school hadn't admitted to himself there was a problem, or rather he convinced himself that the problem had gone away. If he was still thinking 'problem' maybe he would have made some different decisions.

-- IFMU

[IO540]

the ELT should be picked up by D&D if you are in the air

An ELT won't be picked up in the time it takes any GA aircraft to glide to the ground.

The 121.5 transmission might be picked up immediately but it comes out at a very low power, sufficient for a range of some 10-20nm only. The 243 or 406MHz emissions are used for satellite-derived position fixing but they take minutes at best and possibly an hour or more to fix you. By all means do set off the ELT while still airborne but it won't do you any good until a fair bit later.

I would immediately set 7700 as that will be picked up by a lot of ground units, both ones we know about and ones we don't know about. London Control for example can see secondary returns some distance into France, at GA levels.

Minimum sink is usually just a few knots above the stall burble

Quite, which is why it can be a better idea. Single engine certification limit on Vs is 61kt, so the min sink speed might be 65kt. The Vbg, on the other hand, is 95kt for mine (TB20). The ratio of the two speeds is likely to be similar for other SE types.

If descending through IMC, it's a lot better to hit trees (or anything else for that matter) at 65kt than at 95kt. The difference in energy is about 2x.

[Fuji Abound]

I wanted to add one point.

As others have said fly the aircraft etc but if you can despatch a pan or mayday (I think it should be a mayday) make every effort to do so.

I good friend of mine died after an engine failure. Whilst the circumstances of his arrival were not fully understood, it is probable had AT known of his plight he would have been found in time to save his life. As it turned out the rescue services did not arrive at the scene until some considerable time after. There was no need for this to have been the case (a very easy site to get to) - it was simply that no one knew the aircraft was down.

It is not brave or clever to believe you will pull off the perfect landing, the fact is even if every is looking good you can never been absolutely certain whether there is a pot hole or some small obstruction in an otherwise perfect field that might be enough to turn the aricraft over.

Make the call if you possibly can.

[StrateandLevel]

Are you threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and
require immediate assistance? If so then its a MAYDAY

or

are you concerned about the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
some person on board or within sight, but do not require immediate assistance? Then its a PAN PAN

Simple Question you deceide.

[airman13]

If you issued a PAN PAN PAN alert, and meanwhile you could restart the engine, you may cancel the alert.

[Fuji Abound]

StrateandLevel

I dont think so:

Flight crew can declare emergencies at two levels: Pan and Mayday. A Pan call concerns the safety of an aircraft, or of a person on board, where immediate assistance is not required. A Mayday call is the more serious. A Mayday call does not necessarily indicate that the aircraft is in imminent danger but that the crew requires urgent attention from the air traffic controller.

If you issued a PAN PAN PAN alert, and meanwhile you could restart the engine, you may cancel the alert.

.. .. .. assuming you know why it stopped in the first place that is.

[Bravo73]

FA,

Purely out of interest, what is your source for that quote?



I'm not looking for an argument, honest! :O

[dublinpilot]

If you issued a PAN PAN PAN alert, and meanwhile you could restart the engine, you may cancel the alert.

While I don't necessarly disagree with that, the question asked was if you would issue a PAN AFTER you had RESTARTED the engine.

[StrateandLevel]

Fuji,

I suggest you try reading the definitions in ICAO Doc 9342, CAP 413, and ITU documents.

[High Wing Drifter]

I don't think quote ping pong is going to add much clarity to the subject. The CAA advice in Pink 68 seems to indicate that they are keen to get the message across that pilots should not be reluctant to declare an emergency. The CAA also advise that pilots taking the simple step of preventing ambiguity and explicitly a Mayday or Pan and not simply state the problem and assume it is being handled as such. The advice seems to be if in doubt call Mayday and downgrade later if appropriate.

I don't see any sense in over analysing the wording or definitions. Also I would have thought that in the vast majority of situations, a stopped and restarted engine cannot be trusted, in which case you are certainly in imminent danger.

[Fuji Abound]

Purely out of interest, what is your source for that quote?
Ah yes, that would have been Lord Davies of Oldham in the House and who may just have been advised by the CAA.

I suggest you try reading the definitions in ICAO Doc 9342, CAP 413, and ITU documents.

I did. I thought Lord Davies had probably reflected the CAAs current view more accurately.

Moreover, I thought his views reflected a far more accurate assessment of the position - one in which the captain is not expecting to "crash" but requires the immediate attention of AT

[Bravo73]

Ah yes, that would have been Lord Davies of Oldham in the House and who may just have been advised by the CAA.



Sorry for showing my ignorance, but who hell he? :confused:

[Fuji Abound]

Sorry for showing my ignorance, but who hell he?

"Responsible" for advising the Lords on aviation matters amoung his other duties - deputy chief wip I think as well.

[aluminium persuader]

Shame he's wrong, then!

1.2.1 The states of emergency are classified as follows:

a) Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.


Shouldn't trust a politician!:ugh:

[Fuji Abound]

Shame he's wrong, then!

Hmm - well firstly he is not strictly a politician, secondly I think the interpretation of the legislation is accurate and thirdly in my field statements made in the House have a very strong basis in law particularly where they clarrify the current understanding. I doubt he would have given the explanation he did on an uninformed basis.

A commercial departs and suffers an engine failure. There is no immediate danger. The crew are well practised, there is no fire, and ample power to continue safely on one engine. The aircraft is not in serious or imminent danger but the crew call a mayday because they rightly require complete priority to return and land - it is SOP.

[IFMU]

If descending through IMC, it's a lot better to hit trees (or anything else for that matter) at 65kt than at 95kt. The difference in energy is about 2x.

Good point. If the clouds go to the ground you are better off slow. If the clouds don't go to the ground then I would want to have some speed to arrest the descent.

-- IFMU

[Kit d'Rection KG]

A commercial departs and suffers an engine failure. There is no immediate danger. The crew are well practised, there is no fire, and ample power to continue safely on one engine. The aircraft is not in serious or imminent danger but the crew call a mayday because they rightly require complete priority to return and land - it is SOP.

FUJI, No. Another case of the uninformed posting on matters outside their expertise, I fear... :rolleyes:

Engine malfunction without fire in a CAT aircraft would require a 'Pan' call. One exception would be if it occurred in a State which may not recognise 'Pan' calls, in which case that consideration alone would dictate a Mayday. And it's not 'SOP' either, but trained custom and practise (I'm not aware of any companies publishing SOPs which are prescriptive to the extent of dictating specific declarations of urgency or emergency for specific conditions).

[Fuji Abound]

http://flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_B...ideo-8457.html

Was the engine on fire? What did the crew know of it when they called a mayday? Were they single engine or reduced thrust and what reserves of performance did they have? What did they do?

Immediate assistance of AT required - mayday,

immediate assistance not required - pan.

That is how I see it - we will just have to beg to differ.