Rishworth 777 contract

[RootCheck]

Just got offerred the 777gig with Air India. Contract is an absolute joke.
Pay is pathetic, no allowances, buy your own end etc etc
Has anyone actually taken this contract?

[highcirrus]

Received from Rishworth on 9 October 2007:

Monthly payment: Examiners US$13,500, Instructors US$13,000, Check Captains US$12,500, Line Captains US$12,000. Contract completion bonus of US$50,000. Net of Indian taxes.

Regrettably, these terms were published on the basis of verbal advice we received prior to final approvals being obtained. We have now been advised that the confirmed rates are as follows:

Monthly payment: Examiners US$11,500, Instructors US$11,000, Check Captains US$10,500, Line Captains US$10,000. Bonuses of US$40,000, paid annually (12k, 13k, 15k). Tax Crew Member's responsibility. Full details are contained in the revised briefing document attached.

We do regret that you were initially provided with incorrect information.

Looks like Air India has backtracked.

Also from Rishworth:

The roster is 14 consecutive days off every 2 months.

[Round D. Globe]

Highcirrus

I would'nt be at all surprised that it was RISHWORTHLESS who backtracked in the pay rate and blamed the carrier.

Be careful with that group.

RDG

[Aussie]

But look at how many guys on contracts dont have family, and really couldnt care less if they here or there....

The ones without family is probably the ones that stay there.

[The Dominican]

$10,000 to fly a 777 and be away for 6 weeks is simply too little money. With the amount of A/C orders worldwide it is going to get harder and harder for them to get pilots and it is about time that we as pilots get a fair share of the pie. I hope that people put their SJS a side and stay away from that contract, they either get competitive or get a ramp full of A/C's. There are contracts here in Japan and Africa paying around $9000 a month to fly a CRJ. $120,000 a year to fly a 777, give me a break:=

[BALEWA]

$10,000 to fly a 777 and be away for 6 weeks is simply too little money.

:eek::eek::eek:

And why not, I'll take it, know a whole bunch of guys who would not hesitate.

[Dan Winterland]

The pay going down when the contrast agency realises they have some interest is a common ply. I verbally agreed to contract through PARC for a European carrier. Once they thought they had me, suprise suprise - the pay offer went down! I told them to get stuffed.

Have a look at the other contract agencies. Sometimes the same jobs are advertised with better conditions.

But deal with contract agencies the same way you would deal with a cobra. Very carefully! (Edit; the snake. not the beer!).

And these Ts and Cs for a widebody command are p!ss poor. Anyone who agrees to them gets what they deserve. If India is serious about improving it's aviation infrastructure, it had better start paying the going rate. Don't they realise there's a shortage of pilots!

[Left Wing]

Tax Crew Member's responsibility.....PLS PLS NEVER EVER AGREE TO THIS TERM....INDIA IS TAX HELL FOR LOCALS WHO KNOW THE SYSYTEM...AS EXPATS ITS A DEATH SENTENCE..........:ugh::ugh::mad::mad::{

[The Dominican]

I guess BALEWA and his buddies can always fill the void!:yuk:

Do not sell yourself short gentlemen, The pilot shortage will only get worst and if we don't demmand good salary and conditions when the jobs are abundant. When will we?:=

[LindbergB767]

$10000 US a month to fly a B777 in India
Never I willwork for those conditions
Even Vietnam Airlines which is a poor country operator is paying $12000 a month NO TAX
And many B777 Captains at VN are expecting a pay raise very soon
By the way those 6 weeks ON and 14 days OFF should improve
It Started in Vietnam in 1994 since then nothing better
An office worker in EU or North America, as well as Australia is having 2 days OFF a week plus 15 to 21 days of annual leave which is 119 to 126 days a year
6 on 2 off in only 90 days a year

[surf0]

ok so there seems to be alot of negative talk about the tax situation. but no facts. can someone who has actually worked in india as a longhaul pilot comment on what they do/did about tax? if you are off around the world on duty, then you can hardly be labelled a tax resident in india? or do they have some cunning plan to get you no matter what. how about a few facts and less heresay.

cheers

[BALEWA]

Well I called Rishworth and spoke to a very polite lady and the terms offered compared to what is being published here is not bad.

As a matter of fact it looks like people are putting wrong details here.

Currently one of our guys here has accepted the offer with Rishworth and three other local guys who flew the A340 and B767 here in Lagos are off to Etihad and Emirates.

By the way Dominican If you can find a better offer back home than the one offered by Rishworth, I suggest you stay home :yuk:

B

[nike]

BALEWA,

he said, she said.

As a matter of fact it looks like people are putting wrong details here

would you mind telling all what the polite lady offered?

[meagain]

Hey BALEWA, of course you'd fly a 777 for $10,000 a month, that is, if you had the type rating as a Captain and some time on type, but I'm afraid that you more than likely don't, and you are just a dreamer. I would have loved to have done the same when I left the aeroclub a loooong time ago... Good luck anyway. I think you'll find that the operators that start to pay the correct rate for experienced pilots will crew their expensive kit and the others will be cancelling flights. There's a certain 777 operator on the Korean peninsula with brown planes who is starting to run short of pilots and it is about to get a WHOLE LOT WORSE for them...:ooh::=:D

[BALEWA]

Hi nike, you can call her yourself, the number is on this site :ok:

meagain believe me Sir a B777 TR will not be a problem to acquire at this time for me, but the fact is I have no plans on leaving my current position here in Lagos, have not found any airline out there paying more than what F/O's are picking up here, and I am home also (Thank the good Lord).

Concerning Rishworth, I am accomodated in a compound with quite a few other pilots from all corners of the world including Nigeria and do share and take part in information gathering from agencies and airlines around the world just like everyone else.

So quite happy here and no captaincy or 777 is going to lure me away from my current position :D

All the best and happy hunting.

B

[BALEWA]

Single Local Pilot Based in Lagos F/O B737

$6000 USD/Month tax free (ie TAX paid by airline)
60/80 Block Hours a month
$150 per diem on overnight stops (hotel paid by airline)
10 Consecutive Days off
Airline provide fully furnished apartment at Base Residence
Gnd Trans to/from airfield to crew hotel
Gnd Trans to/from airfield to Base Residence
One free ticket a year and 75% off any other ticket for self/family local/Intl
Medical Insurance and access to Airline medical facilities
Uniform/ID Documents manuals provided by airline
Travel Ticket/$1000 provided by airline for sim recurrency travel

And a bunch of great gals and fellas to fly with both local and expatriates :ok:

[galdian]

Thanks oldboldpilot - great to see people posting info without turning it into a drama session. :ok:
I am sure there are many like myself who are just interested to see what's going on contract-wise around the world.

If the contract is as you advise (understand not doubting your figures) an interesting mix, the main concern being the tax (which from posts of a few months ago is an ongoing sh*t fight for Rishworth in India in general.)
If you could control/negate the tax then the carrot (15 days consecutive off) would be enticing to some - assuming the requirements of "crewing" don't turn them into a mirage. Sure THAT would never happen! :E

Accommodation, however handled, will leave a dent in finances and seems travel is unclear to an extent that both the costs and frustrations may be unpleasant surprises.

Interesting you are an "independant contractor" whilst Rishworth will be getting their fees each month, every month, having "delivered" you to the airline and Rishworth appear to provide little in way af ongoing support.

Oh - and I have a sneaking suspicion they would have gotten a kickback from your 777 endorsement; if not then very slack of Rishworth - business wise shame, shame, shame! :)

Seems India and Rishworth don't mesh that well for whatever reason.

OPEN QUESTION: anyone care to mention other contractors operating on behalf of airlines in India??
The good, bad and ugly??

[nike]

oldboldpilot,

thank you for your post.

Would be great if they started paying in EUR, the USD is shocking.

[RootCheck]

Had a query along the lines of what would have to change with the contract to make it appealing. Well these are a few to start with:
*A lot more money. would have to be well over the hundred grand mark
(perhaps less if endorsement was provided)
*less time on, more time off (eg 3 on / 2 off)
*Travel supplied to home city of residence, not just to the nearest company port.
*Perhaps an actual base of operation eg Mumbai with accommodation provided, rather than bouncing around the network for duration of time on & living out of a suitcase
*Allowances

Basically it would take a pretty radical improvement for myself, or any of my collegues for that matter, to consider this contract.

[oose]

I agree Rootcheck, that contract stinks. How can they expect people with families to be away that long and then home for a short period, and do it again and again indefinetely.
These agancies and airlines need to take a long hard look at what they offer as unrealistic. The sooner more planes are parked the better, I have no sympathy:ok:

[timbob]

Jet Airways 777 F/O as of 8/07 $6,600/$5,700 for 1,000 hours and 777 type-rated. $88/$77 per hour above 80 per month (all net), 6 weeks on, 2 weeks off based India or 9 days on, 8 days off foreign (ie EWR or BRU), 28 day annual leave (during which recurrent training is F/O responsibility, som e assistance provided by Jet), 10 days sick leave, furnished apartment in India or hotels if foreign-based plus some allowances, deadhead economy-class, no mention of per diem, 12 month freeze to jump to 777 in India with other carrier unless Jet approves. Lower salary and hourly for less than 1,000 hours but still 777 typed. Age to 65 OK.

[Geebz]

I have done quite a bit of overseas contract work while on various leaves from my airline over the years. Without a doubt, Rishworth is the worst contract company in aviation. I remember years bck when they offered me an ATR gig in India, Parc was offering nearly double what rishworth was for THE SAME CONTRACT.

Whenever I get Rishworth emails about contracts, I simply delete them never even bothering to open them up. In '03 I took another leave and flew for a M.E. company where I eventually became C.P. When I took over the pilot turnover was 100% for captains and 65% for F/Os. I eventually discovered the former CEO decided to apply the Rishworth doctrine to pilot compensation. I even came across one document from Rishworth where they suggested he (the CEO) hire Bulgarian, Russian or African pilots as they would be less "problematic" than Westerners (presumbly they meant Americans and Europeans). He failed so miserably at his job that every captain quit and no new captains (except me) would join.

I am amazed they Rishworth is still in business today. Keep in mind, when you work for any crew leasing company, THEY are YOUR agent and THEY are keeping 20-30% of your monthly salary. How can they possibly work for your best interests when they are also the agent of the hiring airline? The conflict of interest is obvious so expect to get shafted most of the time. That said, I would suggest PARC if you have to go with a crew-leasing company. They seem to take care of the pilots more than any other contract company out there.

You get what you pay for in life. Pilots must be well-compensated in order to be motivated to stay in a place other than their home. It costs entirely too much money in recruitment and training to mess with pilot pay, IMO. An airline gets much more value-added by properly compensating (this means paying the highest of the worldwide going rate for contract pilots on a specific equipment type) crews than by trying to nickel-and-dime them to the bitter end. How much money do you save by spending $50,000 to recruit and train (recruitment plus simulator costs) a skilled employee only to have him quit 3 months later because the conditions are so sub-standrd?

[nike]

oldboldpilot fired a PM through to me, which I gather has been sent to others also, asking my thoughts on what would make the contract more interesting.

To that end, I replied saying that the best contract doesn't necessarily have to be the highest paying one out there, if comparably, other areas of the contract make up for the short fall. i.e. in one sense, we all have our price, but equally money will not always make up for loss of lifestyle, which is what expats tend to do when moving away from their home environment.

Sadly, this contract does neither.


Regards Rishworth, this seems to be one company that I have never EVER read anything good about. I have had no direct dealings with them, but generally as any discusion includes both points of view, and it seems that this is one topic that continues to lack the other, it suggests that there is NO other side, so I shall be stearing clear of them.

[Left Wing]

AI is looking for direct recruitment.... they have 3 777 parked and need pilots bad...

[Left Wing]

Mrs. Harpreet A De Singh
Addl. GM - QMS & TRG (O)
AIR INDIA LTD., OAP
SANTA CRUZ, MUMBAI 29
TEL +91 22 26263497
Hade Singh [[email protected]]

is the key person for accurate info ... and in ture AI fashion dont email call up on India time.

[thumbiman]

Here a thought for all you that are complaining. Don't fly there. I am reading these posts that you guys won't ever fly there under those terms. Is anyone putting a gun to your heads and telling you to fly there. Stop complaining!!

[typhoonpilot]

Air India manager's were at the Air Inc. Atlanta 2006 job fair looking for 737NG pilots for Air India Express. They were looking to hire direct back then. Had a pretty underwhelming response and were visibly disappointed.


TP

[boeingfag]

Air India is recruiting directly. Go to airindiaops.com there is a link for a direct on line application form.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

These types of contracts are DEFINITELY sub-standard.

I know of a guy flying as a CRJ captain in India making over $100K, and they give him a free residence in base, pay for private Western school for his kids, and provide him with a car and driver 24/7 for him and his family.

Here's a comparison with a company I'm interested in, NetJets in the US.

You would be a new FO flying something between a BeechJet-Citation-Hawker-Gulfstream 200.

Your starting pay, which begins the first day of training, is about $75K USD.

They have 100 bases. They will call you the night before, and at least 10 hours before your tour starts as to when to report. They will have an airline ticket waiting for you in your base to fly you to your aircraft. When your tour is over, they airline you back to your base. If you wish to fly to another location (not your base) they will provide the ticket, it the cost is less, or charge you the difference between the ticket to your base, and the ticket to your requested destination. You can change your base every month, so you can live in the warm Southern states in the Winter, and the warm Northern states in the summer, if you desire.

Your starting schedule is 18 work days a month, with a maximum trip of 7 days. If you work 7 days, you then get 5 in a row off. If you work ANY number of days (1 or more) you get a minimum of 3 days off in a row. After completing training, you can switch to a 7 on/7 off schedule if you wish, which will pay $59K USD.

Your monthly payment for your family's health care, dental care, and vision care (glasses and contacts) is 0. NetJets pays for all of it. When you go to the doctor, you pay $20 per visit-that's it.

They have a 401K retirement plan. You are allowed to pay in a maximum of about $16K USD per year. The company will match up to 15% of your income (If you make $100K, and you contribute $15K per year, NetJets will also pay in $15K per year.). The 401K money is YOURS, to invest how you want, and to take with you whenever you leave.

cliff
KYIP
PS-I talked to a buddy of mine who Interviews with Emirates next month in Atlanta. He said they are contemplating opening N. American pilots bases, as they need to add and keep more pilots than they are now. He has NO widebody and NO oceanic experience, and they are interviewing him for a DEC -777 slot.

PPS-Hold out for Better Pay/Retirement/Benefits/Working Conditions!!!

[Spooky 2]

Are there any US/UK basing opportunities with AI? Also, I understand that thy pay in Pounds Sterling. Can anyone confirm that? One last item, I believe they have approached a certain aircraft mfg. here in the US about supplying crews for an indefinite period. Any information on that as well?

Thanks

[FcU]

atpcliff,
As a long term employee with Emirates from N/A I would advise you and anyone else who is thinking of coming to Emirates because you have been told there will be N/A basings to take it with a VERRY large grain of salt. The senior management of Emirates has stated time and time again that there will NEVER be basings (money earned in Dubai is meant to be spent there). This is a rumour/lie that is passed around to encourage joining EK with the hope of a basing in the near future. DO NOT make your decision based on this assumption especially if your using it as a sales pitch to the missus/mister.

[kargokobra]

One wonders what the AI managers were doing , ordering all these big shine expensive 777 and not thinking of hiring enough pilots to fly these aeroplanes. 3 of these aeroplanes on ground criminal & shameful. So much of tax payers money, down the drain.

[Mahoo]

Just read this entire b****ing session about this "dodgy" contract and who knows maybe your all right it could be a complete **** up but oh well kick it up the guts i reckon. Admittedly not the ideal situation if your a skip as there's gotta be plenty opportunities for people with your experience esp considering the current pilot situation. Also not ideal for those of you with mouths to feed and a whinging better half wanting you home more often and saying "i married you cause your a pilot and what the hell is this salary??"
But there's a few of us keen on this gig so we're off to India, i'll let you all know how it all pans out but if your like me and have just been on charter or small airlines then this is a pretty good opportunity to get your foot in the door of a 777 with out too many hassles. The salary isn't that bad for a starting F/O and if you want hours on type then who gives a s*** about the monthly hrs. Been doing more than that and i was in a probably equally ****ty place so just gotta roll up the sleeves and get stuck in. Anyway its only 18 months so if its no good then let it go.

Tho i'm not speaking from any sort of experience with Rishworth they've been pretty helpful so far so we'll see.

OBP posted the contract details almost to the word so if your interested have a look at that post.

[Bob Hawke]

How does an AI 777 know if the crew is Indian or Expat? For that matter, any 777? :rolleyes:

[timbob]

According to Rishworth, they are significantly changing the 777 Air India contract...does anyone have any information...one rumor is basing out of India (Europe or North America). FYI, Alteon/Boeing looking for 777 and 767 pilots to train as contract simulator instructors...30 days on/off...roundtrip air and all expenses paid....$500USD per day plus $80 per diem..no age limit....www.alteontraining.com is website, click careers, select simulator/operations (worldwide) then select job link at very bottom, 747-400, 777, 767, etc. based in Renton. This appears to be a great commuting opportunity.

[PA31 pilot]

I just heard that this whole contract fell over and there are about half a dozen guys and girls trying to get there old jobs back at nelson and eagle after forking out 26k for a 777 rating. any more info any one?
I have been told to stay away from rishworth before, as they are dodgy.
sounds like it may all be true after all.

God bless those unfortunate ones!:sad:

[spinmaster]

Are those B777 F/O still in India, or have they gone back home now??

[timbob]

FYI; New Rishworth contract terms listed on Who will Command AI 777's thread.

[GW_04]

And by the way, what PA31 posts is absolute rubbish!
Trying for a wind up I guess :=

[vagabond 47]

Lesson number 1.....Rishworth dont generate the contracts, they merely listen to Harpreet or next Babu, wave a stick,Rishworth then discount their commision thru "magic mirrors" and then publish the contract
I dont like supporting the Rishworths of this world, but remember you are dealing with a Culture that insists on subterfuge.......normal life in India, if you are not screwing your fellow mate you are the wrong class/ caste.
Rishworth hide behind "sorry its A.I."......REALITY is they are, and we all know it the biggest "Whore House on this Aviation Planet." INDIA is worth wobbling your Head for according to RISH..Was hoping the new Management would play "kiwi ball", but alas not true.
Rishworth will always cover themselves with supporting overide clauses, or else deny over the phone said statements. Get it in writing.
If we werent so distracted for what ever reason we could quite easily put the Rishworths of this Planet out of selective Business,s.
I am looking into it



,

[Kiwi Expat]

Does anyone know why the current group has been held up so much in India?
Have heard they are coming home after 10 weeks there!

Was told due to USA flight crew visas not being completed.

Any truth that U.S traing captains they had organised pulled out last min wanting more money hence the hold up, and parked up 777's?

Just after the truth.

Thanks K.E

[PA31 pilot]

25 US training Capts rejected the contract.

The F/O's have been sitting in the pub in india waiting for the call up, but not sure what they will do now, no one to train them you see........

Should be plenty more opportunities out there with a 777 rating.

PA31

[farrari]

Like what other

[Kiwi Expat]

Not good times for those in wait then!

I hear another course starting on 16th Feb and one again in March!
One would be a little nervous if about to undertake this contract right about now?

I hope all works out. Anyone know if A.I plan to sort this out?

[Mahoo]

Funny reading through this history. For the record and for all the doubters, this contract turned out pretty much as expected... it was a foot in the door, there were a few ups and downs but all of us benefited from the experience and aside from a couple that went down different paths, we became 777/787 captains in various other carriers following this contract.

So in these times of uncertainty with aviation there will be opportunities that arise in the future and for the new generations coming through. Get stuck in and good luck. Go and find out for yourself, at the very least you’ll build some character!