C172 Fumes?

[Applecore]

Hired a C172 today and could smell fumes in the cockpit for the whole flight about 1.5hrs - it made me feel sick:(

I Don't often fly a C172 but I have never noticed it before.

I spoke to the Organisation I hired it from and they said it was normal?

Is it?

[Merritt]

Normal!? Ive not flown a 172 but I hope not..

Im pretty sure I wouldn't have continued flying it though - it could have been a cracked exhaust manifold leaking in to the cabin & giving you CO poisoning.

Steve

[Final 3 Greens]

What did the fumes smell of .... exhaust, avgas?

[Applecore]

"What did the fumes smell of .... exhaust, avgas?"

Exhaust fumes....

The cockpit has a stick on CO sensor which did not register any CO.

[dublinpilot]

What was the expiry date on the CO sticker?

Some of those CO stickers are years old, and have just been left there. They will never register CO.

The big warning sign is that it made you feel sick.

You can buy your own Carbon Monoxide sticker patch very cheeply. £1 or £2 would seem right.

dp

[Applecore]

I thought that the commonest symptoms were headache, nausea and vomiting, vertigo, altering states of consciousness and weakness.

I only felt a little bit sick.. maybe it was just the smell which was most noticeable just before take off and after landing.

[Final 3 Greens]

Can't say I ever smelt exhaust fumes in a 172.

If I were you, I'd be reluctant to fly it again, until I knew exactly why you could smell exhaust fumes in it.

[Julian]

I have flown a few hired C172s and can state that never smelt any fumes inside the cockpit. If its normal then maybe I should get a refund as I obviously wasnt getting the full 172 experience!!!:)

I wouldnt bother hiring from them again if they are prepared to BS you on that then what next....? Would you expect your car to be full of fumes and make you sick? "Ah yes sir, its a feature of the new Audis/Ford/Bentley/Delete as applicable..."

J.

[Pilot DAR]

Do not continue to fly exhaust muff heated (Cessna 172) single engine aircraft if there is any sense of exhaust leakage into the cockpit. It could easily be fatal.

I had a very bad, though not permanently harmful, experience in a Cessna 150 many years ago. CO will affect different people different ways. I nearly passed out after 15 minutes in the 150, where the other pilot was seemingly not affected, and landed me safely. He said that my face was very red, and I was hardly cousious. 15 minutes total time in the air was all it took! It took about a half hour resting on the grass beside the aircraft before I could get up. After a while I was fine, and very lucky to have not been by myself!

Pilot DAR

[BackPacker]

Pilot DAR, if the symptoms you describe disappeared in half an hour, it might not have been CO poisoning but something else.

This is what I remember from rehearsing this stuff just before my then-girlfriend, wanting to be a nurse, took an exam in it:

The main oxygen transport mechanism in the blood is Haemoglobin (Hb). It has the ability to attract O2 (oxygen) in the lungs, and release it in the organs. This attract/release mechanism is dependent on very subtile variations of the pH of the blood, caused by the absorption of CO2 in the blood (which forms H2CO3, an acid) in the organs, and is released in the lungs.

Hb attracts CO much better than O2, and once the Hb has attracted a CO molecule, this molecule is not released anymore as the acidity of the blood changes. In effect, this Hb molecule has now become worthless to the body, until it is regenerated - I think in the bone marrow. Hb molecules, on average, have a life span of about three months, and that is thus also the time that it takes to get rid of a serious case of CO poisoning.

[maxdrypower]

Did you notice it on your check ride ? and what did the instructor say it was or did they cunningly check you out in a different aircraft mmmmm the plot thickens

[stevef]

That aircraft should be in the hangar for an exhaust/heat exchanger inspection right now. One and a half hours maximum to diagnose the problem.The next person to fly it may not be as fortunate as you if it isn't snagged.
Fumes are not normal if they last for more than a few minutes (and only after maintenance, due to excess oil being burnt off joints, linkages etc).

[scooter boy]

2 years ago I was descending into Milan Linate at night from the North having just crossed the Alps in the airway at FL150. As I passed 5000 ft I began to smell burning and was rather concerned about the possibility of an engine fire, I couldn't figure it out - all the gauges were fine and the engine sounded perfect.

After I landed I realised that the topography of the Po valley area is a real smog bowl and traps all the Vespa exhausts and pizza smoke created by the Northern Italians.

This is what my burning smell was.

Sometimes it is outside, even at altitude,
SB

[Caullystone]

Don't know how relevant this is.

I am a student and have just started doing circuits.

The school I use has serveral C172's but so far I have only used 2 of them. They have different engines sizes but I am not sure what they are and if it is relevant.

One of the the C172s, (the larger engine one), always has a smell of fumes in the cockpit just after starting the engine. The smell is also there after landing. I am so busy in the circuit - brain overload - that I would'nt know if it was there all the time or not.

Anyway on my last lesson.. I started to feel sick and could'nt really concentrate so I asked the instrcutor to cut the lesson short after about 40mins.

After reading this thread I am starting to wander if the feeling sick came from the fumes or the flight...

My instructor blamed my nausia on the steep turns we did at the start of the lesson, (looking at some Dolphins in the bay), and that fact that there was little horizon to work with...

When I got home I dicussed this with my wife and she pointed out that every time I fly in that particular aircraft I tell her I have felt a bit sick.

I have never felt sick in the other aircraft, even on days with little horizon to work with.. I have never smelt fumes in the other aircraft.

What should I do?

If it was CO wouldnt the instructor who flys the aircaft every day be have some side effect by now?

[NutLoose]

You should not be experiencing any fumes, assuming the co detector is servicable other possibilities is either the engine has just been painted on maintenance or there is a small oil weep dripping onto the exhaust and that is being smelt as it burns off in the cabin....

If the CO detecter is passed it sell by date, check that exhaust is not being sucked in through the cabin side vent, also check the nose wheel steeering boots to see if they are split...... they could also be what caulleystone is getting

Did you try any experiments inflight, such as cabin heat off, airvent closed etc and did it improve?

Ask them if they have an engineer to get him to whip the cowls off and have a look... better safe than dead

[znww5]

Lets not mess about here, your life could be at stake - tell them you won't be flying in that aircraft again. I was given the 'oh that's normal' routine when I was learning to fly on a PA28 - I refused to fly it again, tech logged it and a couple of weeks later the cylinder head crack and duff exhaust attachment (amongst other things) were finally detected. Eventually the engine had to be replaced.

You're not there to test drive their a/c for them - always use an in-date CO detector card, £2 is cheaper than a funeral!

[Julian]

You're not there to test drive their a/c for them -always use an in-date CO detector card, £2 is cheaper than a funeral!

Very well made point ZNWW5. I would swap aircraft and if they dont have an in date detector, make a point of sticking yours to the dash in front of the instructor, that should get his attention!!!!

J.

[sternone]

2 years ago I was descending into Milan Linate at night from the North having just crossed the Alps in the airway at FL150. As I passed 5000 ft I began to smell burning and was rather concerned about the possibility of an engine fire, I couldn't figure it out - all the gauges were fine and the engine sounded perfect.

Scooterboy, you and your amazing flying Italian trips makes us to jaleous!!! Tell me, do you have a CO detector card in your plane ? I don't see that in may high performance cruisers ? Why is that ??

[visibility3miles]

If you think it's exhaust, don't fly it. Yes, there is a list of symptoms for CO poisoning, but it's also known as a silent killer because it can sneak up on you and impair your judgment and skills.

Carbon monoxide by itself is odorless, so the exhaust fumes you smell are unburnt gas or perhaps oil.

Another possibility (but not one I'd bet my life on) is that some oil or fuel was spilled inside the plane for whatever reason. Could you smell fumes BEFORE you started the engine, or did it only occur in flight? Did you notice the fumes after starting the engine but before you took off?

Did someone spill oil on the engine, and somehow the fumes from hot oil got into the cockpit? (As a student pilot, I once had what seemed like a lot of oil blow onto the windscreen as I started to descend for a landing. What was going to be a touch and go turned into a full stop. Once on the ground, I realized someone had accidentally poured oil on the engine rather than in it...)

Whatever the cause, you shouldn't be smelling fumes, and shouldn't fly that plane until you know what is going on.

[Applecore]

Thanks for your feedback.

You have confirmed what I thought. There should be no fumes in a C172.

I shall have a chat with the rental organisation tomorrow and let you know the results.

[scooter boy]

Sternone,
I am sure you will be poling around the european airways in no time in your Mooney!

I have a built-in CO detector in the R44 which proves it is working every time I am held in the hover for 5 mins or more.

You are right, it is rare to see factory fitted CO detectors in high performance aircraft. I don't know the reason for this.

I had a colleague in the US who used to plug in an electric CO detection system in his Bonanza every time he flew and I know that these systems are available.

The CO detection cards are cheap but I would not rely on one for immediate information (they have no inbuilt alarm which is what you really need if you are concerned about CO poisoning)- if the centre gets black over a number of flights then it will show a background problem but otherwise I think they are of limited use.

Happy (CO poisoning free) flying!

SB