Updated briefing Samedan/LSZS

[FlyMD]

Going to Samedan in a few days with a Gulfstream. It's been almost 5 years since my last visit, and the jet was smaller..

Appreciate and tips and tricks, regarding especially parking, handling, fuel, etc..

Tks guys

flyMD

[FLEXJET]

Live cams can be of help :
http://www.engadin-airport.ch/Livecams.15.0.html?&L=1
http://www.engadin-airport.ch
Avoid overnight ther if you can, it's risky during winter.
Nice pic of G-IV VP-BUS here :
www.clariant.com/C12568C5004FDBD7/vwLookupDownloads/Deicing_210x280_e.pdf/$FILE/Deicing_210x280_e.pdf

[gigi116]

be prepared for EGPWS warnings on downwind !

[FlyMD]

Thanks guys..

Went today to Samedan, solid cloud cover 2500ft AAL, big hole in the ceiling just above the aerodrome..

Had lots of fun doing the recommended procedure (down the valley, 180 turn over Zernez, back straight in 21)...

Ground ops no problem, all very flexible and fun... During our ground stop Junkers 52 from JU-air came for a visit.. Grand old airplane..

All in all, a fabulous day, and a reminder why corporate flying rocks... most of the time! :)

[Johnny Redd]

Ok, let me be the one to put my head above the parapit.

Into a hole, in the otherwise overcast cloud, at 2500' aal, with the MSA up around 17,000. In a tight valley, in a gulfstream.....

I know you're Swiss based but am I the only one to think thats a fools game?????

[FlyMD]

Johnny:

i'll take the bait and "justify" myself to you if:

1. You are familiar or have familiarized yourself with LSZS and it's intricacies

2. Have the experience and credentials to understand what i'm talking about...

awaiting your reply or PM..

flyMD

P.S. even if you do have the credentials, the title "Swiss suicide" is uncalled for

[727 exec]

I have to admit, having been there (and having also missed numerous trips there too), to sticking to a Company Brief that states that no approach or departure is to be commenced unless the following conditions exist...

*there is no significant cloud below 15600' (MSA) within 25 nm along the valley either side of the airport.
*that the mountains within 5nm of the airport are completely clear of cloud. *visibility is greater than 7km.
*wind velocity at the airport is not greater than 20 kts.

I'd be interested to hear what other people use as a go/no go...thanks!!

[Johnny Redd]

Well MD I apologise if my title has ruffled your feathers, but it is a question not a statement.

I fly for european GA charter outfit that regularly operates in to LSZS (many don't). The company brief states that VFR conditions must exist to descend below MSA, basically no cloud in the valley. Without passengers I've 'bent' the rules and flown into a hole and quite frankly it was the most terrifying 10 minutes of my x-thousand hours so far. Stuck under an overcast, heading the wrong way down a narrowing valley towards an enourmous MSA and a military danger zone and the only way out is up through the clag. And when we landed at our diversion airfield the management were only too quick to demand we return as "other operators were getting in".

I appreciate that there are pilots who have "local" knowledge but pushing the limits at this particular field is really not sensible.

I'm not out to irritate you or seek justification, flying is full of variables and lets say whats safe one day may not be the next.

But lets ask the question, just what limits are being used??????

[FlyMD]

Ok, Johny, seeing as you're familiar with the ins and outs of Samedan, i'll make good: here's my thinking...

With a thin but solid layer at 2500 AAL, and 10k visibility below that, you can fly up or down the valley maintaining more than 7000ft of altitude, which is a minimum not only to keep the locals happy, but also to keep a reasonable distance from cables and most hang gliders and such, and most importantly, with about 150 knots (good maneuvering speed for a G5 in intermediate configuration) at 7000ft, a 180 deg turn is possible in ANY part of the Engadin valley, PROVIDED there are no "hanging" clouds on the side of the valley.

Local procedures recommend a straight in approach from either Zernez or Maloya, depending on RWY. If the hole in the layer is not over those points, but over the field, as happens quite often, the need arises to fly up or down the valley, and do a 180 turn for final. Not so problematic on the Maloya side. On the Zernez side, i prefer to take the long way, and go pas the village of Zernez to the south branch of the valley for a wider turn.

My minimum requirements, then, to start such a procedure:

1. the hole in the cloud layer is big enough for me to see slantwise ALL THE WAY to the point where i need to make the turn, BEFORE I commit to descend below the layer.

2. The elevation of the layer is such that i can maintain more than 7000ft for the whole procedure.

3. No hanging clouds, precipitation, haze or strong/gusty winds.

In addition, following points are part of the flight preparation:

1. Phone call to the Samedan airport before we take off, to get their take on the weather, the traffic situation, VFR activities, etc..

2. Thorough briefing in the cockpit regarding go/no-go factors, procedures etc.., also BEFORE getting near LSZS

3. Early radio contact with Samedan, to reconfirm latest conditions, as well as talk with the other trafic. (by the way, on wednesday, we had a chat with an Swiss Air Force helicopter, a Pilatus 12 and a Challenger crew on scene before even cancelling our IFR)

4. In addition to the normal weather/notam briefing, a good long look at the military and other shooting activities (KOSIF), the Swiss VFR chart as well as the Swiss Glider chart (cables...) needs to be taken.

I won't even get into the passenger and company issues related to this kind of operation, as the differ so much case to case and company to company. But that's really where it all starts, because if there is any pressure from that side, the game gets very dangerous.

The point i'm trying to make is that sufficient information, discipline and common sense are safety factors all the time, and more so with airports like Samedan, Gstaad, or Aspen. I would much rather have a crew prepare thoroughly every time, then go near the operational limit, than impose some sort of company limit, which will then be applied without further thought.

I'm sure You have excellent reasons to apply Your own personal limits to operation in LSZS, influenced by Your experience, Your airplane and it's performance, Your company and Your passengers. There is nothing to say against a prudent attitude, ever. So good on You for not letting the company put pressure on You.

I have my own set of rules and guidelines, they are a result of experience and attitude, and I don't really like to be labelled suicidal by a fellow professional, even with a question mark...

[verma]

Hi saw your postings on Samedan. We are shortly operating a flight from India to Samedan , equipment Falcon 2000.
Would appreciate if you can brief me on the local procedures and tips.
Regards

[Flintstone]

Altogether now..........search is your friend.

Engadin Airport St. Moritz Airlines: News (http://www.engadin-airport.ch/index.php?id=24&L=1)

Watch out for the local cowboys coming out of the valleys and undertaking you.

[EatMyShorts!]

And don't do stupid things, don't go below MSA if there are too many clouds on downwind, even if you the valley of the airport is clear. There are some high mountains on downwind that you want to see, not kiss.

[FalconFlyr]

be prepared for EGPWS warnings on downwind !

gigi116, mate I think you might be doing something wrong.....:confused:

[No RYR for me]

While at it: http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/VP-BAF.pdf any updates available?

[fogmaster]

Awesome place. !! Ive been in many times and it lots of different equipment but one thing is un-questionably clear..... this place MUST be treated with the utmost respect and professionalism. :ok:

[clivewatson]

Quote:
be prepared for EGPWS warnings on downwind !
gigi116, mate I think you might be doing something wrong.....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gifWe are regular visitors and our experience is that EGPWS alarms are quite common. Had a strange one on last visit where we were given "pull up" call outs all the way down finals to 21 despite in NO WAY being below the profile - and yes, it was CAVOK. The latter only happened only once though.

If the forecast is 50/50 we offer the owner the option of fly and see if it's possible, or decide at the outset to fly straight to Zurich.

On another note, we were once waiting to depart (delayed due to poor viz and low cloud) and listened to a SCHEDULED arrival attempting to find a hole through which to dive, so I guess the concept of "dive and arrive" at Samedan is not unique.

My only advise to those contemplating such an arrival is that when you find a hole that you consider big enough (you set your own criteria) - you check that ATC are not going to depart someone up into the same bit of airspace!

Other considerations:

Empty your bar before parking up for an overnight - everything will freeze!
Check the forecast the day before you plan to leave - you may not be able to get out. Think about positioning out empty the day before if it looks iffy, and taxi pax to meet you.

Geat skiing to be had while waiting downroute for a week or so!

[FalconFlyr]

I stand by my previous statement....:}

[splitduty]

FlyMD. Quote ` I have my own set of rules ---`

I am sure that is very useful in a court of law when it all goes wrong!

[FlyMD]

FlyMD. Quote ` I have my own set of rules ---`

I am sure that is very useful in a court of law when it all goes wrong!

You are, I hope, capable of understanding that one can apply a set of rules and guidelines IN ADDITION to whatever national and local rules apply :rolleyes::rolleyes::ugh:

[splitduty]

Yes indeed - but national and local rules are the absoloute minimum!

[FlyMD]

so what are you on about, exactly?

[HermanTheGerman]

I don't remember the MRVA they let you down while passing overhead Samedan, I think it was somewhat around FL140?

arrived at this altitude over the field there are only 2 possibilities:

first one: you see the airport and there is enough space to descend into the valley VFR

second one: you don't see the airport

in any other cases than case number one you have to divert. it's as easy as that.

[flybypilot]

I have always taken that rule as set in stone but not everyone does! We came overhead last year and couldnt see a thing so diverted (fully overcast), at the same time 4 aircraft (2 German) reported visual and descended into the cloud 1 by 1! We even checked on the webcam afterwards and were shocked!!

Accident waiting to happen?!

[clivewatson]

errr, nearly correct Herman, but...

Swiss will clear you down to FL170 and ask you to report when you are ready to cancel IFR. By definition, you may only cancel IFR if you are able to maintain VFR.

Once IFR has been acknowledged as cancelled, and if you are able to descend in accordance with VFR, there is nothing to prohibit you from flying below MSA, even if you cannot actually (yet) see the airport. The legality here relates to continuing flight under VFR and has nothing to do with the fact that you may be well below surrounding terrain.

If you are able to maintain VFR all the way down through any hole you may find you have not broken any rules.

If, before descending, and after having cancelled IFR you have reason to think that you may not make it all the way down, Swiss prefer you to let them know that you might just "pop back up" in readiness for your divert.

Too many people make a big deal about Samedan. There is no "white man's magic" associated with landing there - it's just good stick and rudder fun!

[ILblog]

Guys

I was flying to Samedan today, and was able to catch up METAR over Germany. Thay stated OVC090. As I know, they will let me descend to FL170 as IFR so I assumed, that clouds are somewhere in FL150. I even didnt tried to go there and asked for alternate (st gallen).

But what the hell. When I have descended, I have realized, that there is flat overcast over all the Alps in FL150. Just to cancel IFR and fly there, but I didnt wanted to change my decision.

So my question is.


Over Samedan, they let you descend to FL170 as a IFR
Tha altitude of highest peaks around Engadine valley is JUST 12.000 ft
Do you have some non certified GPS procedure, some set of waypoints and altitudes, that will guide you safelly from FL170, lets say to FL100 in the middle of a walley?

[McDoo]

So lets get that one straight, you want to descend to 2000ft below the highest terrain in the area using a non certified GPS procedure?

Why?

It's no loss of face to change your decision, it's professional common sense.

[His dudeness]

Not too long a ago two polish pilots paid with their life for something like that. (selfmade GPS approach into Samedan)

http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/1874_e.pdf

Samedan is spectacular flying when the wether is fine and nononono when it isn't.

Why not break the clounds during your descend into St.Gallen and then proceed VFR to Samedan? (assuming you came from the north...)

I don´t wanna sound like mr. wiseguy, but 5600 elevation plus 9000 is 14600. If you can keep VFR between GND and 14600, where is the prob? Even if the peaks are near this altitude...if you can see and avoid them...

You could also try to break clouds in the Lugano arrival, which might be a tad more difficult with the Italians involved, but...