Airplane and Copter:logbook

[acuba 290]

i have a JAA-PPL A(SEP) and wanna take some hours with instructor as PUT with helicopter. I don"t want to do a PPL for copter, but is it possible to log this hours into my logbook or it has to be a separate logbook for copter pilots?
how you people who flying both airplane and copter write your hours? different os same logbook?

[vancouv]

I've got a fixed wing PPL and did a trial flight in a heli, but the instructor told me I would have to log it in a separate rotary log book, not the same one.

I also did a session in a full A320 sim and was looking forward to having a big jet in my log book (:)) but the guy who did it, although an airline pilot, said I couldn't put it as PUT as he was not appropriately qualified.

However, it is your log book, so you can pretty much put what you want in it - it only becomes an issue if you try to claim for hours that you're not entitled to - I think!

[Whopity]

The law states what you must log not where you must log it, thats your choice.

[Flying Lawyer]

Your logbook, your choice.

I keep separate logbooks.
That's partly simply personal preference and partly because it gives me room to use separate columns for each helicopter type which makes keeping running totals easier.
If you do go on to obtain a PPL(H), you'll need to keep totals of each type - unlike f/w, you need a rating for each type you add to your licence and will need to keep a record of hours in each. NB: Each type, not simply piston or turbine.

If you're definitely not going to obtain a PPL(H), it's not worth having two logbooks for the sake of a few hours p/ut. But, be warned - the helicopter bug is well-known for getting into your bloodstream. I started off intending to do only a few hours for experience/fun but, once the bug bit ................. ;)

FL

[Floppy Link]

One book

black ink (A)
blue ink (H)

seems to work...

[ShyTorque]

I've flown both fixed and rotary wing since 1973 and I'm on my fifth log book. I've never used separate logbooks for each, just written it all in as it happened. I think the different coloured ink is a good idea (why didn't I think of that).

There's definitely no legal requirement to keep separate logbooks.

[IFMU]

I use one logbook for fixed wing and heli time. I do use a seperate logbook for glider time.
-- IFMU

PS for the times when I've needed to seperate and add up my time, I created a spreadsheet with a zillion different categories - night, tailwheel, towing, helicopter, and so on. For flexibility it beats the paper every time.

[kiwi chick]

I've got separate log books too.

Tho we do have a column at the end for sort of "misc" stuff, but if you do any instructing, this is the only place to put it to have it isolated.

So, I guess:

1) Two logs books, or
2) If you instruct fixed wing, don't Heli fly! :ok:

[Whirlybird]

Having done a PPL(A), I got told when I started on my PPL(H) that I'd need to have a separate logbook, or it would be too complicated for the CAA!!! Load of rubbish basically. It's personal choice. If you're keeping track of f/w flying hours, night hours, IMC hours, several helicopter type hours, instructing hours, and so on, you need some way of doing it that works. But that's all. It doesn't matter whether you do that in one logbook or ten.

I've always had two, and always used the small PPL ones. I stuck to that size when I needed a new logbook, as when I'm about 93 and they won't let me fly any more I want to get them leather-bound together so that I can sit in my armchair and look at them and dream. (Sad, innit?) However, I thought at one time of getting a commercial logbook with loads of columns (Jeppesen seemed to be the best) and re-labelling all the columns so that I could see any of the totals I personally needed at a glance. I still think that would be the ideal way...but that's only my personal preference.

So the bottom line it....you need to log it, but do it how you like.

[Whirlybird]

Tho we do have a column at the end for sort of "misc" stuff, but if you do any instructing, this is the only place to put it to have it isolated.


Ah, yes. We have a column like that too. But I put my turbine heli hours there, in case I ever needed a total of them. Then when I became an instructor, I decided to put the hours in a column I was quite sure I'd never need..."multi-engine night" seemed like a good one, so I've put my instructing hours there for over four years.

And guess what? As part of one of the series of articles I write for one of the aviation mags, I'm going to be flying.....you've guessed it - a twin-engined heli, at night! Sounds exciting...but now where the hell am I going to log it? :confused::)

[MartinCh]

Hello guys.

I finally found this thread from last year after searching for the issue mentioned here. Nice to see both options of 'all-in-one' and separate logbooks working OK.

HOWEVER,

I'm facing bit of a complicated thing. I plan to do helicopter, powered airplane and glider flying starting this year. Helicopter first. But this year might see me do some glider training as well.

Complications start for me when I think of the differences, JAA, FAA, another two ICAO countries, just for the fun of it. I already know of some special requirements of logging hours in FAA that's different to JAA and vice versa, but what about logging helicopter time in two countries and airplane in three countries with all different 'system' ie regulations?

I'm not sure keeping gliding logbook separate only will help much.
I've seen Jeppesen 'international logbook' on pilotstore or whatever online shop that was. Does anyone have any experience with it?

What about logging hours in two 'copies' of logbook, one for FAA and another for JAA or ICAO country?

How does it work with backing up the data? Is photocopying sufficient or does it have to be notarised all the time? I've read about some xxxx form in FAA that is sufficient as evidence of hours flown in the event of lost logbook.

Can I actually have two identical flying logbook, just one for each logging fashion? (last year I've read something of that kind in one Australian chopper school instructions to prospective pilot coming from US or Europe)

Is it possible to 'merge' all (say, except gliding) together once I'm (somehow eventually) commercial pilot without too much pain?

For the detail, USA, UK, another JAA, Argentina and probably Canada as well. Not to mention when I get to NZ, I'd want to fly a bit as well.

Totally baffled,

Martin

[Genghis the Engineer]

It doesn't need to be all that difficult.

I'm in a similarish position to your (intended) one - I've logged PiC in aeroplanes, fixed wing microlights and flexwing microlights: plus P/UT in all of those plus gliders & motorgliders, plus flight test observer in just about everything from helicopters to motorgliders to fast jets - plus night, IMC, simulators... I have CAA, JAA and FAA licences, regularly fly as a flight test observer - you get the idea, it's complicated.

I had the sense when I started to fly and intended to do a lot of it to buy a reasonably chunky commercial logbook (the nearest equivalent now to what I have would be the CAA CAP407 logbook). After a bit of messing around (different colours and highlighters - didn't really work) I decided that by far the easiest solution was just to design an overlay label on my PC for the column headings, print it on thin paper and stick it on. Every year or two I find that the pattern of my flying changes so I change the label - so long as each page's totals are all correct, it works fine.

CAA and FAA officials, plus numerous instructors and examiners have seen my logbook for various reasons - neither has ever raised any query or objection to the method. Pretty much any commercial standard logbook, so long as you fill in all of the basic flight data and use approriate column headings, will meet all of the requirements of any regulatory authority, and CAA and FAA don't seem to object to seeing each others stamps and signatures in my logbook.


This doesn't mean that you can't use separate logbooks of-course, there may indeed be good reasons to, just that you don't need to. Similarly you don't need to be as worried about neatness as I tend to be - tippex and biro will change the headings just as effectively. Or, you could design and bind your own logbook using a PC (when I finally fill up this one, I'm threatening to do just that).

Regarding backups - I've never fortunately lost my primary logbook, but I have always photocopied each page as it gets filled in (complete with signatures, etc.) and filed that away, keeping it in another building. Nobody's ever suggested that this method was deficient - but if you are doubly paranoid, get the photocopies notarised by somebody reliable once in a while. It can't do any harm!

Basically, keep a clear and full record of your flying in some form of permanent binding - in a way that allows you to prove anything you are likely to need to, and keep some kind of backup. Everything else is optional!

G

[Fake Sealion]

I have one civilian log book which comprises carried forward Military Single piston - RAF & RN, Rotary wing RN - both single & twin turbine plus current civilian single piston. All hours are logged in the apropriate single & multi engine columns. I do however maintain a back up summary Excel file and of course my original Military Log Books - RAF & RN !!!!

In this way I can keep a true running total since "effects of control 1" - some 33 years ago:bored:

[MartinCh]

Thanks for reply, Genghis the Great :)

From what I've read here, RE the FAA vs JAA/UK CAA differences, ehm.
So it's bit exaggerated, right? I know that some hours as PIC in FAA are not considered P1 in JAA. I don't know other exact details of filling out logbook differences.

Pretty much any commercial standard logbook, so long as you fill in all of the basic flight data and use approriate column headings, will meet all of the requirements of any regulatory authority, and CAA and FAA don't seem to object to seeing each others stamps and signatures in my logbook.
BUT, this should cover these doubts..

As you mentioned, you use CAA logbook for many things.
Seems I'd probably go for separate logbooks. I don't fancy copying the data to PC and all around (besides photocopied backup) as I know myself a bit.

Can I 'carry forward' half empty logbooks into another one? Ie, when I finish up my CPL trainings and do instructing or focus on one side of flying for the time being.

Fake Sealion just mentioned RAF and RN logbooks data carried forward.
I don't know if 'merging' logs doesn't have some rules.

Is CAA or FAA logbook better for gliders?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I can't think of any occasion where hours logged PiC for the CAA would not count for FAA, nor vice versa. If you do military flying they might want to only consider that, but they'll give you their own logbook anyway.

You can end a logbook and start another whenever you like - so no problems there - I'd just recommend removing or crossing through the pages you aren't going to use.

Regarding separate logbooks, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do (even if I don't do it) for different classes of aeroplane but I really wouldn't recommend doing so just for different authorities. Aeroplane (or helicopter, glider...) hours are aeroplane hours, the country and registration are pretty much irrelevant to your total currency and flying experience.

It really does not matter which logbook you use for gliders (you could even use a British Gliding Association logbook!), just use different columns for PiC and PuT, which in turn are separate columns to those used for recording other flying.

Trust me, it really isn't that complicated - don't get worried about it or over-complicate things unnecessarily.

G