12hr shifts

[lalapanzi]

Are 12hr shifts outdated?
How effective are you working 12hrs?
3-5am do you have all your 'wits' about you to make complex decisions?

Would a 3 x 8 hrs system be beneficial?

With the influence of the EU will shorter shifts be forced upon us?

[SAIIP]

I think it depend on the situation and company. In our company we like the 12rs 4 on 4 off pattern.
I must admit that we did try the 8hrs shift pattern, but we found it difficult for staff level, hoilday cover and some other issue arise from this.(I still enjoy to take 3 days hoilday for 12 days off) :)
During ealier hours in the morning is not always busy, but we got all the preparation work for the next day and some flight returning from the state.

BRGDS,
Sai

[Tarek Nor]

I always preferred 12hr shifts. The reasons are numerous, but I
think that the main one would be the time spent on days off
means that you get away for long enough to relax properly.
I have worked with 8hr shifts before, they always seem to drag
on and suddenly those 8 hours have started to stretch towards
10. The other big disadvantage with the 8hr shifts is that when
there is need to provide cover for sickness, or holidays etc there
is usually some poor sod who ends up cover their own shift and
then having to come back 8hrs later for another.

Just my 2 cents worth

rgds

T N

[This message has been edited by Tarek Nor (edited 23 June 2001).]

[Thrust-Bump]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif What difference would it make to you lala, you never do any work anyway http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

As the memory serves, working a 12 or 8 hour shift with you is like slave labour. You slide off at the most inconvenient times leaving the real troops to fight the battles :)

[Stirling]

Good question. Personally I prefer a twelve hour pattern. The benefits of this far outway the negatives. My reasons are too numerous to mention, although the two prime reasons are days off for days worked and if you're working an 8.5 hour day anyway, an extra 3.5 doesn't matter too much IMHO.

I've also seen some of the riduculous roster patterns for a shorter working day, which not only seem to be confused but gain you too few days off at the end!

Certainly have to agree that the EU will have some influence on our working day. Although aren't transport workers exempt from certain EU regulations, including that of hours in a working day?

12 hour shifts and proper breaks....that'll do.


[This message has been edited by Stirling (edited 25 June 2001).]

[lalapanzi]

Thrust-bump my apologies obviously your experiences of working with me has affected you. http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/otn/confused/1zhelp.gif

It has been some years since I worked shifts, and when I did I always believed in allowing my assistants the scope to develope their skills and make decisions. If I had realised that this was too much for you then obviously I wouldn't have let it continue. You only had to say something http://www.3dpcgames.com/cwm/s/contrib/lilly/sten1pinkgreen.gif

Anyway things obviously worked out for you as you have joined the ranks of the aircrew :)

Back to shifts - those I have spoken to do prefer 12hrs, mainly because of the time off earned. Something else if I may, how does your respective companies calculate your leave?

[Thrust-Bump]

Lala - yes I have moved on to big and better things but I was NEVER your assistant. I wouldn't allow myself to become that shallow.

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Seems now you are still in the pen pushing realms but still not pushing much out http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif Nothing has changed much since the days when you sat on the black leather chair upstairs at the corner of the LTN hanger. Maybe going a bit greyer around the edges is the one thing that has changed, but then...... maybe not http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[vipero]

It's nice to see good friends chatting...

Ciao
Paolo

[lalapanzi]

http://www.duhspot.com/users/smiley/s/otn/other/11doh.gif T-B
So you have never worked with me, but yet you feel qualified to offer an opinion about my working style.

I have not worked in any 'hangar' since the mid-eighties, and then can't remember if the chairs were leather, or really care. Bit extravagant for an ops dept. http://www.ihs4ever.com/~cwm/otn/tongue/wazzup_sg.gif

Due to the ensuing passage of time, there is no way you are in a position to make any constructive comments. Now if you what to have a 'pop' at me fine, just make sure you have your facts correct. http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/otn/angry/argue.gif

Do feel free to either email or post and we can compare notes.

Oh, and in order to have gray edges one has to have something to go gray. http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/contrib/ed/Asta1.gif

Hi Vipero - how's Italy's favourite Ramp Agent - oh sorry Dispatcher. ;)


[This message has been edited by lalapanzi (edited 26 June 2001).]

[OCC]

Hi Guys,

I have to say I would go for the 12Hr shift anyday.
Yes it can be a long shift but beats the s.h.1.t. out of an 8Hr shift. First from a company point of view you have 3 handovers a day instead of 2 and we all know how long handovers can take on a bad day :-)
Yes you have the 4 days off are great which gives you alot of time to unwind before getting back into the s/h/1/t. that can be landed on you.
My main point would be the types of roster you would end up with on a 8Hr shift, could be finish on a night shift then start back on an early so only really 1 1/2 days off, or could end up working a week of earlies then lates then nights.
Give me the 12Hr shift anyday.

Brgds

OCC

[united1]

:)OCC,

Have to agree with you!

I currently work 12.5hrs shifts on a 4/4 basis, and am concerned that moves may be taken in the near future to change to the 8hr, work every bloody day of the week, pattern!!!!!!!

12hrs are effective! Continuity is much greater, and therefore better decisiions taken as the big picture is known, and not just the last 2hrs you came on shift. If you get my drift?

[Mad-Dog11]

European Working Law Directives state the following: (read the last paragraph)

(i) workers to be entitled to a minimum of four weeks PAID holiday per year

(ii) an obligatory rest break for employees after 6 hours;

(iii) a minimum daily rest period of 11 consecutive hours;

(iv) a minimum average weekly rest period of 35 hours (ie 24 hours plus 11);

(v) night work not to exceed 8 hours on average per 24 hours, and never to exceed 8 hours if the work is specially hazardous or involves heavy mental or physical strain;

(vi) a requirement that laws must protect workers from the worst effects of monotonous work.

Exemptions cover a wide variety of employments ranging from total exemption for managing executives who do not have fixed hours of work and for the road, rail, air and sea transport industries, to partial exemption for staff at hospitals and in the emergency services.

Regards

MD

[Thrust-Bump]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Lala - I have worked with you but never as an Assistant. You weren't IN the hanger, but adjacent it in the room upstairs.

I can only make judgments on what I have experienced whilst knowing you. Lets say many other people are of the same opinion as me http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

As for the lack of grey hair, yep, you need some (hair that is).

To answer the original question, working 12 hrs is no different than working 8hrs. If one is good at ones job, then being able to apply yourself over a 12hr period shouldn't be difficult. Like I said before, when you did 12hr shifts, you didn't actually do any work in the first place. Yes your assistants did most of the work, but that wasn't through you wanting to ensure they learn more. :P

[boredcounter]

MD-11
Re yr last para
Don't get me wrong, I work the magic 12 Hr shift, you know, wher management tut when you turn up 15 mins before start time, but will not pay o/time for h/over, and would not change it.
Are you sure listed exemptions are not those covered by more, or similar restrictions elsewhwhere?
I only ask, remember the (SAA} frt agent, more than happy to work doubles, till it didnt suit. Newborn more important than money, and sued.......

It will not suit someone sometime (suits me)
then it is over to the courts..............


Bored



------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle

[KYGMSY]

Haven't yet seen a post from Lala in which he is not having an argument with someone.

[lalapanzi]

KYGMSY
How nice to hear from you :) Do you enjoy 12 hr shifts, assuming you work them?

Strange as it may seem no hidden agenda, just trying to gather some info to keep practices as they are!!!

T-B seems to be working to another agenda for whatever gain or reason. Its amazing what you can find out about people these days with the technology available - where their emails originate from. Take Jetset.co.uk hosted by another.com. Little programme I have just 'ping' the ip address takes you to the source of the message ( CBG as just an example ). Oops sorry went off the thread abit. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

Back to 12hr shifts, how does your company calculate your leave entitlement compared to office workers? Do you get anything extra for bank holidays?
Thanks

[This message has been edited by lalapanzi (edited 28 June 2001).]

[boredcounter]

Same leave as office workers, but docked 1.5 leave days per shift (unless taking leave for admin, crewing etc, all 8 hour days)
4 on 4 off pattern, but seems unfair to me, 1 working day=1 days leave. Bank Holidays, 8 granted if worked or not, rostered day off is just that, no choice to take a bank holiday. No compo what so ever for 4 nights, starting Good Friday, ending Easter Monday.
Give up 3 Bank Holidays for a reduced roster over Xmas and New Year, No nights onto 8's for about Three ever shortening weeks. You guessed it, make plans at your own peril, Stay till it is sorted. (ie had a 2030 finish rostered, last one in at 0230 due disruption.
I work 48 hrs in 4 days, NO OVERTIME for handovers and earn my four days off, why dock me 1.5 leave days per shift?

Bored

P.S., Believe it is the same leave conditions fo Eng'g, also on 12 hour pattern

[Thrust-Bump]

Lala - do you imply that CBG (being an IATA code) is the origin of such a person. If so, you are many miles off track. About 130 to be exact http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[lalapanzi]

Boredcounter - thanks for the info. Leave and shift works has and will always be a conscientuous issue. Somewhere along the way compromises have to be struck.

T-B just an example I used whilst sitting in my black leather chair. So what do you fly?



[This message has been edited by lalapanzi (edited 29 June 2001).]

[Thrust-Bump]

Lala - now on Barbiejets. So how is CVT these days. Have they turned it into an airport yet ??? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[JB007]

TB,

To answer your question....NOPE!!!!

[VdG]

...... seems like the gaffers are shafting you ops ladies and gentlemen on the leave issue. Mathematically:

* 12 hr shifts = 42 hr weeks
* office workers hours range from about 37.5 to 40 per week in UK, Taken over 52 weeks you can work out how many more hrs the ops people put in.
* it may appear that 12 hr ops people get more time off than office worker colleagues, but if you think about it for a mo, if the ops people work more hours ( than office people ), then they MUST get less time off work.
* the office people get to see mum and kids every night and every weekend. pros and cons here of course as 12 hr people can get long periods off - but it has been earned by concentrated periods of long work hours.
* if bank holidays are not credited to the 12 hr ops people, whether rostered on or off duty, ( read the last 6 words again - they are important to the argument ) - then those office workers - who are already working less hrs per annum than the 12 hr ops people - will also get an extra 10 days public holiday ( taking UK as example ) in comparison to their ops colleagues.
* To make an ops officer take 1.5 days holiday per vacation day off ( due length of working day ) is scandalous but seems to be common practice.
* perhaps you need that Union you were talking about some month ago?

[Groundhog Day]

Very good point I never looked at like that before me tinks I will print this off and put it on our HR manager’s desk tomorrow.

"Boy are we being ripped off"

[lalapanzi]

Vdg
Is it not correct that working a 4on 4off pattern who actually only work 182.5 days a year, whereas the office worker works 261 days. 365 -(52 x 2)= 261
That being the case a shift worker on 12 hrs is actually only being paid for 11 hrs, as you are entitled to 1 hr lunch-break (don't all shout 'if only', that just not true in all cases).
So 182.5 x 11 = 2007.5
&
261 x 8 = 2088
So who works more hours?
Yes admittedly some company's only work 7.5hr days.

Then there's the leave.
Taking that shift workers have 20 days & office workers have 20 days who has more time off.
Shiftworker - taking into account days off either side of shifts / 4 days leave = 12 days off. 20 leave days = 5 sets of shifts.
5 x 12 = 60days off (now you actually work 122.5!!!)(or 1/3 of the year!!!!)

office worker - with weekends either side / 5 days leave = 9 days off.
20 leave days = 4 weeks.
4 x 9 = 36 + 8 BH = 44 days.
So they work 217 days.

It' a minefield - still want to slap this on the HR's desk? :)

[boredcounter]

Lala
cheers mate. You must be management to look at it like that. What an angle. Forget the compo for not being able to work flexi, like the office bods, sure Eng and F/crew would love to finish at 1600 also.
Let us round down to 182 working days.
182 unpaid handovers @.5hours each end of the shift = 182 hrs p.a.
182 unpaid lunches not taken, 364 HRS so far........That' over an office woring month..........or @ gbp11.00 per flat rate Hr about 5 grand a year, pro rata for those below, hhhhmmmmmm Thanks Lala.
Now let us be consultants 24-8 hrs per day..
Shoot, I thought I was in the wrong job.....


There's money out there somewhere, just no bugger pays it.....

------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle

[VdG]

....... the mathematics referred to earlier are indisputable. They are empirical and no amount of gobbeldygook can change that.

One response missed the point completely in that it is not the number of days worked or days off that count - rather, it is the hours worked vs hours off duty. Two simple examples shd make this clear:

1. Person A works 1 minute per day for each day of the year. So, he has had no days off but has worked a total of about 6 hours in the year. Not bad eh??

2. Person B ( Bionic Man?? ) works 24 hours per day for 100 days and then has 265 days off. This person will have put more time in at the office in those 100 days than the average office worker does in a year.

For simplicity, lunch breaks and leave were left out of the original posting. So long as one compares like with like, it doesn't change things. ( e.g office worker gets 1 hrs paid lunch break per day and 12 hr ops officer gets a similar pro rata paid break. )

QED??

[lalapanzi]

BC - just because I have put thing into perspective does not necessary make me management, but on this occasion you would be right :) I only have figures in this manner as this was now it was put to me when I 'negotiated' with management many many years ago.

VDG - if you can't dispute the figures what other way is there to put it. Every position, within the company's I have worked, includes an element of 'overtime'. This applies equally to shift workers for handovers, and office workers who end up working late! Whilst this does not apply to every single office worker in the interests of fairnes I have treated it as such.

Thrust-Bump so how many hours have u accumulated? Type rating? at a quess R/C SEP :)

JB - surely u have an opinion being an ex-ops person? ;)

[This message has been edited by lalapanzi (edited 06 July 2001).]

[Thrust-Bump]

Lala - don't you know what a Barbiejet is? Shame on ya. ERJ145 and fully type rated thank you. Shame life is up North, rather be back at home in the South. Oh well - one day maybe http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

What's the story behind the question on Ops 12hr shifts. Trouble brewing ???

[lalapanzi]

:rolleyes:
Did you actually ready anything of whats been posted or have you been too busy slagging me off to understand it? :confused:

As for type ratings - how do you propose to keep your r/c sep current now that its sold??

[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: lalapanzi ]

[Thrust-Bump]

Lala - wot gives you the impression that the company has been sold. The blue barbiejets are here to stay me thinks. You talk from the rear once again. Get the facts right then ask questions

As for 12hr shifts and your question, I simply asked why the indepth study. Most people are happy it seems to work the 12hrs and have the time off. Suppose now that you are pushing pens, you want to get the best for your troops do you ?? :eek:

[lalapanzi]

TB - oh but I know exactly what I am talking about, just trying to be polite and not expose you for the fraud that you are. To explain if I must:
R/C = radio control
SEP = single engine piston.
Now that is about the sum total of your flying experience. If you are still having difficulty in working this out, you can always drop me a 'private message' rather than waste all these peoples time with your garbage you are so good at spouting. http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/contrib/dvv/bash.gif

[boredcounter]

lala
thought so.....

TB
Barbie = CRJ, we got 'em first.....also exclude Scud and Junior Jet Fleet......
Are ERJ's not known as church steeples, coz every lighting bolt hits them........still :confused:

Oh yeah, 12 Hour shifts was the topic.


ERJ do one?

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: boredcounter ]

[boredcounter]

Lala
In answer to you origional Q, will you crew up for 3 handovers a day?


?
:confused:

[Thrust-Bump]

:( OK lala - 1 nil but hey, it's all a bit of fun or have you lost your sense of humour since working in cloth cap valley ;)

No hard feelings hey :rolleyes:

By the way, I don't work at CBG ! Figure that one out...... :eek:

[lalapanzi]

BC - I'm with you on this one. I would prefer things left as they are, and only just trying to gather other points of view. My thanks for your impute :)

TB - sorry is this your way of apologising. A bit of fun - so those allegations untrue :eek: So does that mean your not a 'pilot'? :eek:

[Thrust-Bump]

;) Well Lala, yes I'm sorry for the things said out of place. I do fly though and it aint RC :) In fact the barbiejet thing wasn't a wind up. See, even "frauds" like me can make it in life ;) Still, no harm done I hope. So how is life in cloth cap valley (CVT) ?? :cool:

[Eagle18th]

Let me throw a few more numbers into the equation...

A company I used to work for had a 4 on / 4 off shift pattern plus overtime.
The senior management decided to do away with overtime and in compensation increased the salary by a couple of thousand a year.

But here's the real sting in the tail...
All 4 Ops Controllers had 25 days holiday a year , which meant each person had to cover someone else for 25 extra shifts.
This meant that although you were entitled to 25 days leave, you also had to work an extra 25 days.
Management refused to see the staff point of view that this arrangement meant too many working hours/days per year.
Within 6 months 3 out of 4 Controllers voted with their feet and departed.

I now work 4 on 4 off again, but without the nazi regime and find it suits my lifestyle very well.

[Taildragger]

Lala/Thrust-Bump ...... Very entertaining, but why don't you slag each other off in private. Boring for those of us not in the "know"
Regards shifts...yes the 12 hours were great for me (Albeit a few years ago) The time off I got was fantastic, and high quality.
I was a bit boracic in those days and was able to take a second job, as did some of my colleagues. EU law (And in my current situation, Greek Law) sometimes is so restictive, and is not in favour of the employees. In many many years, I could count on the fingers of one hand (Well maybe two) the number of people that did not like shift work or 12 hour shifts. Truth be told, the early "Up" was the norm and it was rare to actually work the full time, but don't tell management.!! :)