YPPH gets slot times

[Richo]

Saw the NOTAM today, effective from 1830 tonite (5 Oct).

Aircraft ariving at YPPH during the times of the normal 15 min holding periods, will in addition require:

If you depart and AD within 210nm of YPPH, you must call a phone number and be issued a Slot time for your arrival at YPPH.

There were a few lines about how you can expect to hold for only 8 min, if you can make your assigned slot time. I asume that this means even when you have a slot time you can still be held. It further says that ACFT will be held on the ground (departure AD) if delays are expected.

Now it does not affect me too much as almost all of our work comes in from outside the 210nm limit. But I sure feel for those who will be coming from
Busselton, Geraldton, Southern cross, Albany and any other ASD within that arc.

Can YPPH survive the mining boom much longer?

When will the much needed aerodrome expansion plan be implemented, where oh where is that 3rd runway?

How far out will be the next Slot time implementation, Meeka maybe?

[Led Zep]

I hear the brickworks is coming along nicely.


AMD TFC HLDG FUEL ADVISORY
ALL TFC 15 MINS
MON 0120-0300
TUE/WED/THU 0100-0300 AND 0915-1115
FRI 0915-1030
FLIGHTS DCT TO PERTH WITH FLT TIME IN EXCESS OF 8 HRS ARE EXEMPT
FROM THESE HOLDING FUEL RQMNTS

A. ANTICIPATED DELAYS ARE BASED ON RWY AVAILABILITY
B. ALL ACFT DEP FROM AERODROME WITHIN 210NM RAD OF PERTH, PLANNED TO
ARRIVE WITHIN PERIODS OF TFC HLDG FUEL ADVISORY ARE REQUIRED TO
OBTAIN AN AGREED LANDING SLOT TIME. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO
MED 1, HOSP, SAR, FFR PRIORITY OR HELICOPTERS.
C. SLOT TIMES MAY BE OBTAINED BY PHONE 08 9476 8620.
D. ACFT WIH A SLOT TIME, AND ARRIVING WITHIN 3MIN OF THAT TIME, CAN
EXPECT A MAX 8 MIN AIRBOURNE DELAY.
E. GROUND DELAYS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED IF AIRBOURNE DELAYS EXCEED
15MIN.
F. GENERAL AVIATION FLIGHTS (IFR AND VFR) SHOULD PLAN NOT TO USE
PERTH AERODROME DURING THE NOTAMED DELAY PERIODS, IN ORDER TO
AVOID EXCESSIVE DELAYS.
THIS SUPERCEDES TFC HLDG AS SPECIFIED IN
AIP ENR SUP AUSTRALIA FAC P-10
FROM 10 051030 TO 12 071030

Just what do they mean by General Aviation flights? That is pretty much all operators at PH from CAS to NJS!!!!!!!!! Or does that just mean bugsmashers?

[Track Coastal]

Can YPPH survive the mining boom much longer?

When will the much needed aerodrome expansion plan be implemented, where oh where is that 3rd runway?


according to these stats...
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/reports/maa.asp?id=2007
PH traffic numbers really haven't grown a great deal in the last few years- maybe its a case of 'hubbing' (everyone wants to arrive and/or depart at the same time). An hour or 2 of chaos, followed by a prolonged quiet period, followed by and hour or 2 of chaos etc etc.

[fl610]

Ah Australia....The only Third World Country where you can drink the water. :rolleyes:

[Howard Hughes]

Unless you live in Adelaide...;)

Speaking of Adelaide, how long till we get slots there, I mean those three aircraft must play havoc with ATC's 'afternoon quiet time'...:rolleyes:

[Knackers]

Instead of fixing the sysyem, they tinker with it. Like the 80km/hr speed limit on the Calder.

[cunninglinguist]

W A = Wait Awhile

[Quokka]

Knackers, oh so true... and it could have been fixed a long, long time ago.

[nig&nog]

what was the reason for closing the east-west runway that was near the northern end. it would be perfect now for all the fifo morning and arvo traffic. or better still they should make it a ctaf-r and then we would have no troubles.

nig not nog

[Capn Bloggs]

it (11) would be perfect now for all the fifo morning and arvo traffic
Well, for a start, it's now a huge taxiway. Second, it wouldn't make any difference to the arrival rates because it crosses 03/21, and the LAHSO distances on it would probably be too short for anyting but a hang-glider.

[Led Zep]

I'd wager the Dash guys would be up for LAHSO on RWY 29/11 (from memory). :E

[Quokka]

It's not a Caribou.

[mmciau]

And/or the residents of Cowandilla complain the vibrations from overhead
aircraft upset the viewing of OPRAH or "Days of Our Lives"!!!!

Mike McInerney
Marion, South Australia:)

[aircraft]

From the NOTAM:

F. GENERAL AVIATION FLIGHTS (IFR AND VFR) SHOULD PLAN NOT TO USE
PERTH AERODROME DURING THE NOTAMED DELAY PERIODS, IN ORDER TO
AVOID EXCESSIVE DELAYS.

I would suggest that "general aviation" applies to those flights that have nominated "G" in the "type of flight" box on their flight notification. The "G" stands for "general aviation".

The other "types of flight" are: "S" for scheduled air service, "N" for non-scheduled air service, and "M" for military.

[BrazDriver]

How did things go this morning with the poor wx and all??

[cunninglinguist]

Probably SSDD, 15 A/C holding at BIU and 3 A/C inside 30 nms, F50s being told to increase to max speed ( 10kts above their current speed ) and 717s being told to reduce to speeds that are below stick shaker ( oh yes, have heard it with my own ears ) :D

[Ref + 10]

cunning, were you responding to BrazDriver?

Must have got worse after my trip. We had no delay and things didn't seem too congested from what I heard on the radio. ATA was 1046.

[west atc]

I think Cunning may have been promoting the usual stereotypes that go along with people who have no idea about the big picture. Being a Monday morning it would have been unusual to have huge delays.

3-4 aircraft inside 30NM if there are instrument procedures is not unusual if you consider a landing rate of one every three minutes at 3NM a minute speeds gives you 9NM between aircraft, not hard to understand.

I still find it amusing that the mining companies all schedule their crew changes for the same times on the same days, meaning that 50-60 aircraft all want to arrive at the same time yet ATC still get blamed for the delay.

How about some common sense with scheduling, after all Perth is not that busy outside peak times so if arrivals were better spaced out you would find there would be a lot less delays.

Or is it just easier to blame ATC?

Back to the topic of the thread, slot times are just the start of the traffic management procedures that are to be introduced to manage the massive increase in traffic at peak times.

Oh and by the way if you are given a speed slower than you can do, tell us, we can’t hear the stick shaker, you are the one flying!

[cunninglinguist]

You make some valid points westy, particularly every man and their friggin' dog sceduling to leave at 530 ish and return at 930 ish, and its not your fault Australia's archaic system ( or is that over cautious ) only allows 3 A/C inside 30 miles, if that happened in Honkers for instance, they would have 90 holding on every day.

And yes, it is easier just to blame ATC ;)

Oh and by the way if you are given a speed slower than you can do, tell us, we can’t hear the stick shaker, you are the one flying!

The 717 likes to be operated at or around 330IAS to 10 miles :ok:
I'm sure Bloggs can back me on that one :rolleyes:

[Ref + 10]

Hi West,

The points you raised are points discussed at length around the cockpit many a day. If it was a bunch of pilots and ATC types running things like scheduling then yeah, it would be a nice steady stream over a couple of hours, however it isn't up us. I am yet to meet the General Manager that will tell a client that it can't be done between five thirty and seven between Tuesday and Thursday. That little quandry is left to you and I at the coal face.

If you want a small consolation, in my opinion the mines all seem to be upgrading their facilites to handle bigger aircraft that can service 100 seat jets. Coondewanna has done it and many others around the traps are planning or actually in the process of upgrading now. Hopefully the 100 odd people coming back from Coondewanna, Nifty, Shay Gap and the like will be coming back in 3 aircraft instead of 9 before long. Hopefully this will go some way toward helping in some small degree.

Blaming ATC is far easier at 6am than the General Manager of the company. You guys are the most accessible cause the boss is still sound asleep. I personally don't blame you but the tone of my voice may sometimes indicate otherwise. We all have a job to do and there are many "experts" out there throwing stones but in this particular instance I'll hold back cause I tend sympathize with your cause too (as much as it hurts me to say so ;)).

[Capt Claret]

In the spirit of friendly cooperation, if you (ATC) ask for best speed and "cancel STAR speed restriction"; and then want to change the sequence such that from FL360 you slow us to 260, then 220, then 180 but you don't tell us until inside 100nm, when the descent was planned to give you 320 kias to 3000', it plays havoc on the descent profile.

It was achieved but 3000' high at TOPD and then the additional slowing plus the need for engine anti-ice, means its speed brakes out for much of the descent. :8

[SOPS]

and is there a problem with speed brakes out....I thought thats what they were installed for?!?

[ScottyDoo]

That's an old whinge, Capt. C., but a good 'un.

Now, how about the abortion of a SID/STAR arrangement in Perth?

Has the owner of Perth Airport got shares in Jeppesen or something? How many bluddy pages are there for christ's sake???

Not sure how slot times will fix that arrangement - I just threw it in because it needed to be said... :rolleyes:

Like the 80km/hr speed limit on the Calder.

Do they still turn the lights out at midnight just as you're driving home from the pub??

[Capt Claret]

SOPS,

From a pax comfort point of view, it's not desirable to have the darn things out for half the descent. Inefficient too.

[bushy]

Looks like the usual lack of infrastructure, and silly planning.
The airport could use some more concrete, but you probably have to ask someone in London or somewhere to do that.
Surely it's better to depart sooner or later and save time and fuel? Or do you wait for ATC to tell you to do that?
And the term "general aviation" actually means "the things that fly" to normal people. What is often meant by aviators is "light aircraft". Why don't we call them that? This GA jazz was started by aeroplane sales people who said the "general public" were a bit scared of light aircraft, so we won't use that term. Our regulator joined with them in their deception.

[Jetpipe2]

The mines want to run their business too their own needs not those of a transport supplier. They have a lot more shift changes and issues than just the day they fly in and out.

After all this problem is faced by most city road users between 8 and 9 and then between 5 to 6 each day. Do you here people complaining about there office opening hours?

There is no easy solution to this problem whilst we are privatising aviation infrastructure. After all the airport wants to make money and isnt going to build a new runway for 1 hour a day. That wont keep the share holders happy!

Infrastructure that is critical should be the job of Governments, after all we got a new railway here to cover a 2 hour rush period, oh and a new freeway and it looks like we are getting a new port, but aviation has to be user pays.

If rail was a user pays system could you imagine the fares from Mandurah to Perth?

[Monopole]

The mines want to run their business too their own needs not those of a transport supplier True, but when the cost of all the holding or the cost of having to stop enroute to refuel is passed onto them, then it should be an issue to them.

I've had two clients in the last month get jacked with the holding at Perth (it helped when a Director of one particular mine was on board when a 1 hour flight became litteraly a two hour flight :mad:) change their departure times to avoid the holding :ok:. I asked both clients what would be/was involved in changing the flight times and it was as simple as just doing it.

What is the differance between departing at 0700 and planning to depart at 0630, but holding for 30+ mins on the ground like yesterday morning.

[SM4 Pirate]

What is the differance between departing at 0700 and planning to depart at 0630, but holding for 30+ mins on the ground like yesterday morning. Well no difference really huh? But if you didn't ring up and get a slot, would you have only got 30 mins holding? Non-players go to the back of queues; i.e. those with a slot (ticket) get in before the gate crashers.

If you want to legally queue jump; alter your ETD forward; but every now and then they may say no delay... Then what? If you don't meet your ETD with no delay, you get shuffled in the queue based on your true ETA.

CTMS works reasonably well in SY, ML and BN; subject to significant WX factors that occasionally cause it to go T!TS UP; ie forecast 35K westerly allowing for only RWY 25 Ops at SY; but it only blows 20K and the movement rate is way higher than CTMS predicted, thus all the delays are not 'really' required.

[Monopole]

SM4 Pirate

Since when did we need slot times for departure out of PH :ugh:
As for those required to receive slot times what a complete joke it has been.

ACFT WIH A SLOT TIME, AND ARRIVING WITHIN 3MIN OF THAT TIME, CAN
EXPECT A MAX 8 MIN AIRBOURNE DELAY 3 mins is generous. That could be gone just waiting for CCT traffic. What about those who depart a feild where you can not get into contact by phone. Can Centre or Flight watch issue slot times?

This one is my fav.
GROUND DELAYS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED IF AIRBOURNE DELAYS EXCEED
15MIN.
So how much taxi fuel do we need now. How long will the ground delays be? If I did not have 3 pax not show for their flight yesterday, and had I not put on extra fuel because of it, I would have had to wait my turn in the queue to the holding point only to turn around and refuel again :mad::mad:

[SM4 Pirate]

Since when did we need slot times for departure out of PH Well never, yet. :} I was thinking of your ETD from your inbound to PH leg; It doesn't have to be 0630 to 0700 either, was thinking more universally than that.:\

Can Centre or Flight watch issue slot times? Call and ask? We can call the flow from our consoles; they are working out the slot times; better for you to call, but if unable the more notice the flow has, the more likely you are to get a 'preferred' slot time.

[Monopole]

so-long,

If they introduce start clearance or advise of a start time when obtaining an airways clearance (that would be my preference, that way boarding can be delayed), well then I would be OK by that.

I am not getting hot under the collar, I merely stated that there can be considerable operational ramifications due to ground delays other then just running late. I am sure that nearly every pilot here realises that the problem is not due to the individual ATCer. I am equally sure that seeing a line of 20 odd a/c lined up on a taxi way or 20 odd a/c doing bog laps on a radar screen is equally frustrating to you guys.

The 3 minutes is generous - but the generosity is being given to the pilot in command - not to ATC. It has nothing to do with traffic in the circuit.
All they are saying is that of you can make the arrival time at the inbound point +/- 3 minutes, you will not be penalised any more than 8 minutes. If you can't - you might be. Sounds fair to me.
When I said "3 minutes is generous", it was actually tongue in cheek :E. I do not know if the FLOW adds any buffer onto the slot time ie; do they just offer a time that is favourable for them, or is it based on a flight planned ETI plus an allowance for taxi. I know it has nothing to do with CCT traffic as you stated, but it is far from inconceivable to be delayed by 3 mins or more on the ground for any number of reasons. Personally, I think most crew will carry the 15 mins holding anyway just to cover their own butts, making the concept of slot times (and the 8 mins holding) obsolete.

[Ref + 10]

Personally, I think most crew will carry the 15 mins holding anyway just to cover their own butts

I certainly do. Makes it a whole lot easier than declaring a pan after one lap o the holding pattern as I've heard twice this winter. 15 mins is virtually the minimum you'd carry.

As an aside I heard 3 717's today being given minimum groundspeed to avoid holding at PH. We hear that all the time but they were telling them at Paraburdoo!!

Thank goodness the rain is starting to give way to the sun...

[Knackers]

I heard that 40 aircraft held last Tuesday morning. Can that be true?

[west atc]

Quote: "I heard that 40 aircraft held last Tuesday morning. Can that be true?"

Absolutely true knackers. I was on that morning and after 70 departures in the morning we started holding at about 0105 and the last one held at about 0320.

The reductions in speed in the cruise way out made the workload manageable. If there were no reductions and all aircraft came steaming in at normal cruise there would have been way more delays and more aircraft holding at the one time. The speed reductions can sometimes help avoid holding but other times they just reduce the holding time.

There is no easy way of knowing how busy the inbound sequence will be so I believe it would make more sense to carry holding fuel when the NOTAM advises, surely it is better to have too much fuel than too little?

[willadvise]

Question for the operators into PH.
If you are told to reduce to minimum speed at 300-400nm from PH, does this eat into your holding fuel or will you still have a similar amount of holding fuel at 90nm PH because the reduction in speed doesn't use up that much more fuel?

[HEALY]

willadvise

Fair point! Once established in cruise we tend to get a ETA for PH and check it aginst flight planned time so you get a benchmark figure. Some speed reduction early on may put you back to long range cruise so you actually gain fuel on arrival to PH allowing more fuel for holding once you get to the holding points but the requirements to sit a minimum clean can put us towards the back of the drag curve and cause a time blow out (good for atc) and a fuel burn blowout (bad for us). If this occurs I will take off the difference with the new eta from the 15 mins and advise atc a bit closer in if it looks like holding is also going to be required.

Although atc dont want acft stacked up over Ph there is only so much you can do with maxpayload / min fuel flights. This will be compounded in summer with hot conditions not allowing the extra (mum and the kids ) fuel to be put on site and only having the bare minimum holding fuel. Add the arvo build ups over the Range and its fun and games all round.