comparison between military and civilian aircraft ops

[MilOps]

Need some help here guys. At the moment I'm a sergeant Flight Operations manager in the RAF, extremely experienced as the military goes, obviously not so in 'Civvie street', my limitations lie in a lack of knowledge of civil ac ops and the airline industry. Now then, in three years I reach my option and really want to pursue a career in civil aviation, I intend to attend an FAA Flight Dispatchers Course as I hope this will complement my military experience. My main concerns are age, I'll be 40 and I'll have been in the RAF 22 years by then, and pay. I know the pay is crap and I certainly don't expect to walk in on top dollar, however I won't work for peanuts either. Any of you Ops/Flight Dispatchers who are ex military and made the switch, or any dyed in the wool civil operators out there with worthwhile gen then I'd be very grateful. Lastly are the City and Guilds or NVQs worth doing or do employers look for experience and enthusiasm. Thanks team.

[vipero]

You got the point: only peanuts here...
Good luck
Ciao
Paolo

"Flight Dispatchers tell pilots where to go"

[lalapanzi]

Vipero - just what is your problem? The negative vibes are just too much. Get yourselve another line of work for all our sakes. http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/dvv/cwmboom2.gif
Milops - I recall some years back someone from a similiar background as yourself working as a dispatcher. There biggest initial problem was adjusting to the way things were done. Very regimented in their ways, and lacked the flexibility civil aviation offers over mil. Regarding the C&G/NVQ options, have not come across an employer who puts much credience in them.
Good luck with the searches, and ignore people like Vipero.

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say it with icons!

[vipero]

Lala, you live in the heaven of what? Oooh...I got it: pilots...

Returning to dispatching/ops controllers, never seen good pays in our job in Europe.

Stay well lala, play with icons
Ciao
Paolo

"Flight Dispatchers tell pilots where to go"

[lalapanzi]

Vipero - and your definition of good pays is?

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say it with icons!

[vipero]

Like a 1st Officer maybe?? or an ATC controller...

Ciao ciao
Paolo

"Do I have to say again who shows the way to pilots?"

[waco]

Send me an e-mail
make it quick though - disappear abroad again shortly

[taildragger2]

MilOps..

I have friend who worked for the blue boys in ops, when he left the RAF he walked into a very good job at Gatwick with one of the majors in ground ops/dispach, I think he was earning about £24,000 P.A which I don't consider to be a bad wage. I can't really tell you much more as we lost touch some time ago but I'm sure your air force experience will really help you climb a few rungs of the ladder. I don't know if you read my "Whats my chances" thread but if you did you will know not to take any notice of tosspots like Vipero, the guy seems to enjoy making cynical and ****ty comments to chaps with a genuine interest "turkey!" :) But at least it allows us to realise that despite our passion for aviation some idots do crop up in this career! Good luck and I'm sure you won't be short of offers!....................................................T ailwinds............TD2

[The Groover]

Mil Ops,
Firstly I will Echo TD2's statement, who's rattled your Vespa chain Vip ??? Your comments are unhelpful and damage your credibility on these pages.
MO, your experience is what is important, and these days a salary of £21,000 + is easily not out of the question. In my experience I have come across a lot of good ex RAFers in the corporate side of the business, in my opinion that is where you will find the best salaries and conditions/hours similar to you are acustomed to. On the subject of C+G etc, I for one do not consider it a massive advantage, and on interviewing have never taken it over genuine experience and practical skills.
Good luck on the D mob !!

Theodore G Roover


Just keep groooooovin

[INCHOX]

MilOps
I've had loads of pals leave the mob and get decent aviation jobs. The image of a military bod being a regimented robot is crap. I've worked with the civvies - it's just the jargon and shaking the bosses hand instead of chopping him off. Apart from that the next civvy pilot you will meet will probably be ex-airforce or navy.

[vipero]

Dear MilOps,
nothing against you, I just wanted to say that maybe after 22 years in the Air Force you can hardly find the same wage in civ aviation...
Ask people who's really working in this field and see. Fellas saying "I've seen once one finding a job paied ..." are giving (maybe) false expectations.
Repeat: general wages for ops staff are not as we all wanted they should be.

Ciao
Paolo

[Out Of Trim]

Mil Ops - I'm Ex RAF AATC CPL - currently working as Flight Despatch / Load Controller at LGW. I think the C & G are worth doing for the CV but, not sure if FAA Dispatchers course is necessary.. I work for one of the Handling Agents rather than a specific airline.. we deal with plenty; but the pay is definately not so good as a civvy unless your prepared to do a lot of overtime. Even with plenty of Overtime - would just about about manage £23 - £24K. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Happiness.. is being IN Trim!</font>

[MilOps]

Thanks everyone who responded with sensible answers. TD2 I did read your query and I for one applaude your determination to succeed in your dream, if it wasn't for ****ty eyesight I would be pawning my wife, dog and two cats to fly. Anyway in todays modern RAF overtime is a byword, I and my colleagues spend obscene amounts of time away defending uncle Tones policies, guard duty, orderly seargeant, blah, blah, blah. Furthermore the pay ain't that good if you consider what it takes and the time it takes to get there. I'm intreagued to discover however that C&Gs and NVQs are not that well received as the colleges will have you believe otherwise. Finally Vipero, I've been scanning these forum pages for a while now before getting involved myself and I feel compelled to comment that some of your rhetoric is becoming tiresome, if all you can do is be negative I suggest you go out and find yourself a good woman who can mother you and give you the attention you so obviously crave, along with a good bottle of Primitivo to strip the enamel off your teeth.

[taildragger2]

:) :) :)

Good luck MilOps...........Talk soon.........................TD2

[simshield]

Forget the C&G, as for the FAA dispatch licence it depends what you want. The current price for the dispatch licence is around £3000 plus some small change. A lot of money unless you can get the RAF to pay for some of it. Most of the classes and the written exam can be do in the UK, but the practical test still needs to be done in the USA.
The jobs you can expect vary quite a bit, but I have had one or two that pay a few pounds more because of the Dispatch Licence...

[vipero]

Will do MilOps, thank for the suggestion.

Ciao
Paolo

[This message has been edited by vipero (edited 27 February 2001).]

[VP8]

Milops

I am also an ex CPL AATC left on the last big push, now work with the mighty AN124 Ruslan, althought we do not do weight and balance (nearest I get is with my C172) we do get involved with payloads and distances we can go. I don't have any C&G's or dispatchers licence and find that in the UK if you can show the knowledge involved with the job concerned you got as good a chance as the next guy, we are on £21k here and a colleague has just left here to work with SITA in the nav/perf dept and will be on approx £28k so the work is out there and I find that some companies prefer ex mil...

Any way goodluck for the future matey!!

Il ne legitimi carborundum!!

BRGDS
VP8

[DeltaTango]

vipero:
"Flight Dispatchers tell pilots where to go"

hat might very well be....but the pilots actualy GO there....... :) :) :)

[walla]

Milops
hello mate i am ex AAC ops now working in civvy aviation,been out 3 years and i have been in civvy ops for 2.5 years.
I walked straight into a ops job when one became vacant and enjoying it.(most of the time)
Salary depends where in the country you wan't to work for and for who.
I am on 20k could be better but could be alot worse.
There is an ex RAF ops guy at universal ops in Stansted he might be able to help.

[MilOps]

Thanks again every one. Sorry for the lack of replies but I've been overseas for a bit, my initial enquiry to this forum was made from a tent in a desert location. Anyway I'm home now and before my next trip away in support of Aunty Betties Finest (?) I'll start nosing around. With three yeasr to go I at least have some time on my hands to research. Anyway the RAF can pay for an FAA dispatchers licence as part of my resettlement! Vipero ol' boy, hows the hunt for a good woman coning along? On my way back to blighty the other day we stopped off at one of my favourite stomping grounds at Gioia Del Colle for a bit, ah memories!!

MilOps types just bide their time.......

[vipero]

MilOps,
everytime I'm close this much to catch a lady she starts running screaming "help! police! help!"...does this mean something?

Ciao
Paolo

[no sig]

MilOps

Your RAF background is relevant and will no doubt get you into civilian aviation. As someone who has been recruiting Ops staff for many years I can tell you that, I for one, do indeed look for some qualification in Airline flight ops studies. The FAA Licence is a good one to do, however I would also recommend the C&G advanced Ops /Dispatch course which you should be able to do without having the Aviation Studies course before it, although if you have 3 years you may wish to do both or indeed all three.

Whatever course you do the basis of it should be close to the ICAO Flight Operations Officers Licence.

The more insight you have into civilian aviation the better.

[MilOps]

Thanks no sig. I'm assuming that the C&Gs you mention are all part of the aviation studies course, however I've never heard of the ICAO Flight Operations Officers Qualification. Any help on where to go would be useful. Over the last couple of years the RAF approached a college to create an NVQ in Aviation, mainly geared up at RAF types. The idea it seems was to encourage RAF AATCs and Flight Operations staff to gain a civilian qualification, however there have been a lot of problems. The RAF created the NVQ for the RAF resulting in a very poor take up, we're a suspicious bunch and are very aware of the differences between our and your type of operation, furthermore the college recently threatened to discontinue the NVQ due to lack of interest, implying that the only market target is the RAF, any ideas? I personally have grave reservations about wasting my energy on an NVQ of questionable value.

[no sig]

MilOps
The Ops NVQ has never really taken off ( no pun intended) ground handling NVQ has to a certain degree. The City and Guilds 728/7282 course, if I have the numbers right, have been around long time and are about as close as you get in the UK to the ICAO Flight Operations Officers Licence. The ICAO course is an outline that ICAO states should hold as minimum qualification where, and this is important, the state considers the need for a formal FOO accreditation, the UK do not. Bolton Street College in Dublin do the ICAO FOO course.

In the UK the C&G Ops/Dispatch course is a near equivalent but is not a licence as such. The FAA where valuable is very US biased, as you would expect and misses essential European content.

AVTECH and Redhill College Surrey do correspondence course for the C&G exams which are held in June and December.

[Old and Bold]

If you know your stuff (SNCO if you don’t then who does) you will have no problems getting started. It might take you a few months to find your feet but you will be surprised how similar it all is.

Top Tip don’t apply until you are on your termination leave as nobody wants to wait for you, they will interview you and expect you to be in accommodation nearby and ready to start within a month or so but don’t panic their is definitely lots of work out here…

PS….. get a job at Northolt then all the GA operators will love you cos you will get the best runway slots.

Good luck O&B

[INCHOX]

Whilst on the subject of various courses has anyone done a DFS German Nav Services Academy Flight Ops / Dispatch course as advertised in a recent addition of an international flight magazine?

[VP8]

As I said in my last post I left in the last big push in the 80's, I got a job offer and I went to Handbrake House and asked for early release using all my annual leave as I had just started a new leave year and terminal leave with a supporting letter from my Boss. Was getting two paychecks for 6 months...

Any way good luck for the future, don't get many dets to the Deathstar!!!

BRGDS
VP8

[brummie]

Oi Jumpseater / Ghost-rider / BIG E or XTC2000, surely at least one of you could make a comment here?? Its really asking for it, BUT i'm not risking a twanking by saying anything....

What can ex-mil staff bring to our civil airline......you may continue.....

Brummie

[jumpseater]

Perhaps they can bring some 'MARCHING HUP AND DAHN HEXPEEREEYENSE'.

'ANY WUN ERE NOT LIKE MARCHING HUP AND DAHN?'

BYEEE THE LEFT KERWIK HAMARCH! HALEFT RITE HALEFTE RITE...... :)

[brummie]

Yeh, but if one doesn't keep up the exercise, one will end up with a FAT ARSE.....

Brummie

[The Juggler]

Milops.
I am in my last 4 months awaiting demob and trying to get a proper job. If you want info on the C+G course give me a ring in the base ops room at the "Wokka" base in Hants this weekend.

vp8 gis a job after flying in the back of one of your heavies telling them where to go would be a pleasure..

Helis do it slow ans low

[VP8]

Juggler

Ref gisajob

If you send CV c/o
Christopher Fairchild
Air Foyle Ltd
Halcyon House
Luton
BEDS
LU2 9LU

or fax
01582-405850

they are definately on the lookout for an Operations Planning Officer circa £21k and £700 PA bonus.. flight managers are not reqd at mo due influx from Heavylift...

Good Luck in the future

BRGDS
VP8


[This message has been edited by VP8 (edited 16 March 2001).]