No need to tolerate thugs like this

[Phil Space]

Despite the perceived glamour of flying as a career the day to day routine has its problems.
This story below underlines why it is time for aircrew to get tough.
From the BBC website
Air rage smoker jailed for attack
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44144000/jpg/_44144532_robinson203.jpg
A 53-year-old man who terrified fellow passengers on board a holiday flight and assaulted an air steward has been jailed for 12 months.
Stephen Robinson clambered over seats to hit his victim after being told to put out a cigarette on the Thomas Cook Turkey to Newcastle flight in March.
At Newcastle Crown Court he admitted endangering the safety of the aircraft and causing actual bodily harm.
Robinson of Hope Town Lane, Darlington, forced the plane to be diverted.
The hearing on Friday heard how Robinson clambered over other passengers in his row of seats.
In the melee that followed airline steward Philip Miles was hit in the face causing damage to eight of his teeth, the court heard.
The busy Boeing 757, from Antalya to Newcastle, was diverted to Frankfurt in Germany where Robinson was removed.
Recorder Brian Forster QC said: "You terrified the people who were about you and you made the life of the aircraft crew very difficult."
In a report on the incident one passenger said: "I have never witnessed any behaviour like this before when I have flown and I hope I will never see it again." Tim Parkin, prosecuting, said Robinson offered the guilty plea on the basis that he admitted endangering other passengers but not the aircraft.
The court heard how Robinson became aggressive after trying to use a House of Fraser store card to buy drinks.
Cabin crew needed the help of passengers to restrain Robinson after the attack and held him down before he could be handcuffed.
Kristian Mills, defending, said Robinson had no money and was forced to eat leftovers from canteens as he roamed around the German airport for two days.
He eventually asked a charity to fund his flight home as nobody in the UK was willing to act as a guarantor.
The court was told that the judge had no power to ban Robinson from flying again, but that he had been blacklisted by Thomas Cook.

[fatboy slim]

It would be nice to think that it would be possible for his name and passport number to be shared with other UK airlines so no other crews have to be subjected to this vile piece of scum.

I like the bit about him wandering around FRA starving for three days though. Serves him right.

[Beausoleil]

Amusing though it is, I don't understand why he ended up starving in Frankfurt airport. Should he not have been arrested when he was "deplaned" (if that's the word)?

[dontdoit]

Doesn't he look well for 53 :eek::eek::eek:

That's enough to put me off drinking for life.

[Sudden Stop]

It would be nice to think that it would be possible for his name and passport number to be shared with other UK airlines so no other crews have to be subjected to this vile piece of scum.

I don't think there is any reason why airlines couldn't share their blacklists. Pubs and clubs certainly do for these type of animals...

[whoateallthepies]

Excuse a heli pilot for also asking Beausoleil's question. Why didn't our European brothers in Germany arrest him? Is there no pan-european arrangement to deal with arseholes like this?
Thank God I don't have to transport his like!
http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

[PBL]

Why didn't our European brothers in Germany arrest him? Is there no pan-european arrangement to deal with arseholes like this?

Answer to the first question presumably is:
* because there was no reason to suspect he had committed an offence over which Germany has jurisdiction
* because the U.K. had not issued an international arrest warrant under EU rules

The crew presumably wanted him off the plane as fast as possible, and didn't want to circle while the U.K. authorities completed the paperwork for an arrest warrant.

With increasing numbers of incidents of this type, it may well be a good idea for aircrew to familiarise themselves with the legal possibilities and procedures for dealing with such things. In saying this, I do not mean to suggest that the British crew were not so familiar. But questions on this thread so far suggest that others might not be.

PBL

[mbcxharm]

Before we go too far down the thread of 'why wasn't he arrested?', he was...or at least the German police came onto the aircraft and removed him themselves. Why he then ended up roaming the airport I don't know, but he was last seen by the crew being carted off by Frankfurt's finest...

[Captain Galactic]

As far as I know its up to the crew whether they want the passenger arrested and charges pressed. It would involve court cases etc for the crew in Germany which can be a hassle to say the least but ensures these scumbags don't get away lightly. Otherwise he's off the hook, which seems to have been the case here....

[FlyerFoto]

dontdoit said:
Doesn't he look well for 53

Thank god I'm a young 54 then! :cool:

[TightSlot]

The thing that surprises me most is that he has actually been jailed!!! Sadly, in many cases, the punishment handed down is disproportionately trivial for the distress caused - the law simply doesn't take it very seriously... (from personal experience)

However, in this instance, there was a good result - with time off for good behaviour and the current obsession for early release he shouldn't be out until at least... next week?

[TightSlot]

Sorry - follow-up post.

Out of curiosity, why cannot those convicted of air-rage type offences have their passports removed? Anybody know?

[FlyerFoto]

Tightslot said:

why cannot those convicted of air-rage type offences have their passports removed?

It would certainly make a lot of sense - if they can do that for known football hooligans it must be possible, especially when you've actually got someone in court.

Must admit, this was the best item on the lunchtime news at work yesterday!

[SXB]

The article doesn't give any indication if this individual was jailed for ABH or endangerment of the aircraft or a combination of the two. I suspect it's more for ABH, which is a fairly serious and violent offence committed against some one who was carrying their employment duties and a 12 month jail term seems appropriate.

Taking passports away from people under such circumstance probably isn't appropriate, justified, practical and certainly not possible. Yes, football thugs have to surrender their passports when some international games take place but there is specific legislation which allows this.

I would bet money that this guy probably has some sort of criminal history, you don't become violent overnight at the age of 53 nor do violent people restrict their activities to aircraft. Taking his passport away wouldn't, in anycase, take away his ability to board aircraft, there are plenty of domestic flights in the UK.

[TightSlot]

Taking passports away from people under such circumstance probably isn't appropriate, justified, practical and certainly not possible
SXB - with respect and apologies, may I query that?


Appropriate - I'd suggest that it is so and would have a deterrent value?
Justified - Ditto?
Practical - In practical terms, the passport is physically removed and/or cancelled - surely not impossible.
Not Possible - This is what I was querying initially: Would additional legislation be required or is the possession of a passport a right that can be easily withdrawn?


I accept your point about domestic flights, however within the UK we can rely on a marginally more robust legal response to these kinds of incidents than on international flights.

[SXB]

Tightslot

I didn't really explain clearly what I meant. Because someone has been convicted of an offence which ocurred onboard an aircraft it isn't appropriate or justified to withdraw their passport. Aircraft sometimes cross borders and sometimes don't. The punishment simply isn't appropriate. If you're trying to prevent people from being violent on aircraft it wouldn't work. Also, if someone has a violent nature, like the chap in question, it's unlikely they would restrict their crimes to aircraft. I suspect the aforementioned toerag may have an alcohol problem and becomes violent when his supply is cut off.

As to taking away peoples passports, I'm sure the government can do this, in certain circumstances. But, if you were to withdraw a passport you'd be involved in a legal minefield where you, as a government, would be held accountable. The UK doesn't have a constitution but there are all sorts of things which are now enshrined in law which give people certain rights and the govt. has a legal obligation to protect and guarantee such rights, if they don't they end up in court. If you were to remove someone's passport the government would be in violation of a whole host of human rights laws. Let's just take one; citizens have the "right to leave to leave the country" If you don't have a passport it's difficult to leave. That's just one example but there are many, many more. We could move on to EU employment directives, free movement of trade etc

Is removal of passport a deterrent ? for sure it is, but in my opinion so is 12 months in prison. Hope this clarifies what I meant.

[west lakes]

The article doesn't give any indication if this individual was jailed for ABH or endangerment of the aircraft or a combination of the two


I saw this on our local news last night. It was for both.

The fuller story was that he had been found guilty at an earlier hearing at which the judge reccomended a ban from all aircraft.

This was a sentancing hearing with a different judge who stated he did not have the power to ban.
The guy actually has a holiday home in Turkey & is classed as a frequent flyer as well.

[FlyerFoto]

I always thought a UK pasport was a privelege, bestowed by Her Majasty's Government, requesting that a British citizen would be allowed to pass, unhindered, across international borders?

A privelege which, like most, could be withdrawn at any time - otherwise what would be the point of complicated application forms - you may as well by one when you by your travel ticket if it is a right.

Or am I being a little old-fashioned here?

[SXB]

FF
The right to leave the UK is something to which you are entitled, it is not a privilege. There are many 20th century examples of societies which did limit the movements of their citizens, the one which springs to mind is the USSR, though there are others.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, the person in question was dealt with by the courts and was sent to prison for 12 months. Personally, I think this is an appropriate punishment. Violent conduct is unacceptable, especially when the victim is simply doing their job, on this occasion the Court agreed and I think everyone should be satisfied with the end result.

[UniFoxOs]

Taking his passport away wouldn't, in anycase, take away his ability to board aircraft, there are plenty of domestic flights in the UK.

Want to bet?? Tried getting on an internal flight without a passport??

Seriously, though, why can't FAs have a taser to restrain thugs like this?

UFO

[SXB]

Want to bet?? Tried getting on an internal flight without a passport??

Yes, I'll bet. To board an internal flight in the UK you need a valid form of photo ID. A UK driving license with a photo is a perfectly valid form of identification and is accepted by the airlines as such.

[UniFoxOs]

Yes, but those of us who haven't moved in the last several years don't have one of those - and some of us are trying to avoid getting one.

UFO

[SXB]

Well, if you didn't have, or couldn't get a passport but you wanted to travel you'd get one, wouldn't you ?

Anyway, why on earth would anyone actively try to avoid having a driving license with a photo on it ?

[UniFoxOs]

Anyway, why on earth would anyone actively try to avoid having a driving license with a photo on it ?

Just a mild protest against creeping "big-brother-itis". I also intend to renew my passport at the last possible minute before it involves an identity card.

UFO

[perkin]

Yes, you can actually board an internal flight with photo ID such as a driving licence or Armed Forces ID card...Does vary from airline to airline I think, but it is possible. Last time I flew MAN-ABZ-MAN I wasnt asked for my passport at any point.

Edit - Oops, several people beat me to it, sorry to repeat what has been said already!

[Rainboe]

Because the scum will probably get hold of the weapon, then you have a far bigger problem on your hands.

It's depressing seeing the flotsam and jetsam we inflict on our neighbours by handing out passports like confetti. Proof of misbehaviour abroad, or even violent criminal activity in the Uk should bar one from getting a passport. It would seem Governments are quivering in their boots at any risk of accusation of restricting travel by certain people. But when these Brits go abroad and do not act sensibly of respectfully in a foreign country, and get arrested, their passport should become null and void. Often, one is abroad and keeps very, very quiet lest one becomes known as one of the English 'Beer Monsters'!

[Union Jack]

Anyway, why on earth would anyone actively try to avoid having a driving license with a photo on it ?

Try a violent dislike of anything with the EU's or Council of Europe's grandiose symbol on it. And, no, it's nothing to do with my monniker!:)

Jack

[SXB]

Try a violent dislike of anything with the EU's (incorrect) number of stars on it. And, no, it's nothing to do with my monniker!:)

Why do you think the number of stars is incorrect ? It does not, and never has, represented the number of member states. If one were to be cynical I could suggest that this is yet another example of ignorance in the UK towards anything to do with the EU, or rather the EC in most cases. The twelve star symbol represents unity and perfection (though it's difficult to say this with a straightface when applying it to the EU) This particular symbol does not officially belong to the EU, in fact the Council of Europe have a monopoly on this and have had so since the early 1950's

It's depressing seeing the flotsam and jetsam we inflict on our neighbours by handing out passports like confetti. Proof of misbehaviour abroad, or even violent criminal activity in the Uk should bar one from getting a passport. It would seem Governments are quivering in their boots at any risk of accusation of restricting travel by certain people.

The Government has no choice, the right to leave and re-enter one's country is a fundamental entitlement enshrined in UK law. It should be pointed out that imprisonment, obviously, restricts the travel of scumbags, at least for the duration of their incarceration.

[GeorgEGNT]

I wonder if any of the crew come on here. Maybe they can pass on more details of the process of removing him etc (If their allowed!). I don't think his passport should be removed. Just his right to fly anywhere, the skies would be a much nicer place without people like him. What an idiot.

[west lakes]

Just an off hand comment but Tues night Police were called to an a/c in the UK at Capt's request following complaints of a pax smoking "The cabin Crew are unhappy" was his comment.
Don't know destination or airline

[BORN4THESKYS]

Absolute scum, Im sick of people like him, they make peoples lifes a total misery!! If the British Goverment even tried to take away his passport no doubt he would accuse them of breaching his Human rights etc etc.

[west lakes]

take away his passport


Yet they can if they are football hooligans!

[PingDit]

Leave him his passport. Introduce a blacklist for worldwide distribution to all air carriers and include his name. I'm sure he'll love the boat and train trip to his Turkish holiday home!

[Union Jack]

The twelve star symbol represents unity and perfection (though it's difficult to say this with a straightface when applying it to the EU) ...

So it's a bit rich for someone from Strasbourg whose boasts that their personal title is "Riding the Euro Gravy Plane" to start getting smart about the raison d'etre for the number of stars on the EU symbol - presumably with a straight face. Hypocrisy or what!

So thanks for the sermon SXB, and for so nicely confirming my views about the EU, and the Council of Europe since they are apparently so powerless that they can't stick up for their soi-disant monopoly...

Jack (not Jacques)

PS But I will amend my previous post!:)

[Final 3 Greens]

Dear Union Jack

I bet you enjoy reading your copy of the Daily Mail and gasping at the latest news about Brussels.

You obviously don't have the wit to detect the wry humour and irony in SXB's post, which is not a sermon but informative.

PS: I bet you are a staunch defender of the 'British' pound, even though it was invented by the French :ugh:

[SXB]

Union Jack

My comments simply corrected your error ridden post. I notice that you've now edited the original posting to reflect my correction, to be honest I was expecting some thanks but, perversely, you decided to make sweeping generalisations about my hard working colleagues in the EC and CoE. Fine chaps, all of them. In fact I saw some of them in our local Mercedes dealer this morning, most of them were mortified by your comments about our fine European Institutions, obviously we'll discuss it further during our three hour lunch break tomorrow, only briefly of course because we need to choose the colours of our new cars first. After that we need to invent some new legislation just to annoy the Brits, though it will have to wait until Monday as we don't work on Friday afternoons of course.....

[SXB]

Ps For anyone who doesn't believe F3G's comments about the 'French' pound, just do a google, he's right:)

[Shack37]

Would that be avoirdupois?

[mini]

Law of averages, given the amount of people that fly these days there's bound to be the odd :mad:wit.