Hong Kong Express - Living and Working

[Jamie J]

I thought it would be helpful to post some info on living in HK and working for Hong Kong Express for those contemplating the move. Naturally, these are my opinions but I will try to stick to the facts and hope that this thread doesn’t deteriorate into one of those heated ranting type threads.

Living in HK – things to consider;

Accommodation is by far the biggest expense. Research this thoroughly and remember when looking at apartment floor areas, reduce the figure by 10-30% to get useable area ( they include windows sills, corridor to the lift etc). Also remember that rents are rising, (20% this year in many areas).
This cost is partly offset by lower tax (only 16%).
Most people don’t have a car. Public transport (including taxis) are likely to be cheaper and often more convenient.
Food is more expensive if you want to eat predominantly western products i.e you want certain breakfast cereals, cheeses, imported meat and veg etc.
In order of popularity with HKE/HKA pilots;
Tung Chung – to some a monstrous concrete jungle, to others convenient for the airport, cheaper than elsewhere and often good clubhouse facilities in your complex (pools, gyms, shops etc)
Discovery Bay – less of a concrete jungle, but still very artificial for many. Popular with families, artificial beach, 30 mins on ferry to Central HK.
HK Island – expensive, vibrant city life etc, 30 mins on a train to Central but allow 20-45 mins more to your door.
South Lantau Island – low rise accommodation, quiet, beaches but very few facilities/amentities and be prepared to travel.

Ref; property agents; century21, centaline, www.hongkonghomes.com.hk (http://www.hongkonghomes.com.hk), www.landfortune.com.hk (http://www.landfortune.com.hk),
Also; www.discoverybayhk.com.hk (http://www.discoverybayhk.com.hk), www.hkexpats.com.hk (http://www.hkexpats.com.hk), www.geoexpat.com.hk (http://www.geoexpat.com.hk)

Why come to HKE?

Let’s face it, expats don’t come to HK for the natural beauty, historical architecture or healthy living found in much of Europe. They don’t come for the space, beautiful beaches, clear sea or weather found in Australia. Most come for the money and/or to progress their careers.

Money:Do the maths. Make comparisons!
Single guys may be able to save money if you compromise on accommodation i.e share and/or live near the airport. If you want to go to the bars and clubs (incidentally, drinking there is expensive) or anything else in the city you either travel a lot or pay to live there and so won’t save anything! Lifestyle vs money.

Guys with partners have the same choice unless they have a bigger budget. Will your partner be able to get work? From my experience, talking to a lot of expats, it can be difficult because of visas and/or the preference for Chinese speakers. On the other hand if they can get an expat package before you come, because they have good/specialist experience in finance, IT or some other professions then you’re laughing.

Families:
This is the most difficult. Many of the guys at HKE have left their families at home or sent them home because they can’t afford to keep them in HK (housing plus expensive education – see www.esf.edu.hk (http://www.esf.edu.hk)) or their wife’s or kids were unhappy in HK. Pollution is bad and a real concern – see the above expat forums for more on this. HKE do not offer commuter contracts, also see below regarding annual leave. Other pilots have got their family here and are bearing the expense or their wife’s have a good job and/or their kids are young. Childcare, in the form of a domestic helper, is cheap.


Career progression;Unlike Hong Kong Airlines? (see pprune), HKE has promoted FOs to the left hand seat. Also the training is good and getting your first jet job, a 737 rating and/or early command are all reasons to come to HKE. Whether there are other more attractive opportunities elsewhere is up to you.

Attracting you to HKE is one thing but keeping you here may be another. For example, terms and conditions mentioned at interview or even in documents have been known to change, rostering is very unstable and annual leave is a mess. Annual leave includes Public Holidays, so 30 days leave is effectively 12 days leave a year ( 18 public holidays in HK – see www.qppstudio.net/bankholiday2007/hongkong.htm (http://www.qppstudio.net/bankholiday2007/hongkong.htm)).
You cannot tag Days Off onto each end of your leave to make it longer.
Your leave will not be approved until that months’ roster has been finalized. This means that you can’t book flights or make plans until the last minute.

For many pilots, 12 months will have fulfilled their career objective and the temptation to leave then, is common. You will have signed a 3 year contract which says you owe them pro-rate for your training if you leave early. The rights or wrongs of breaking a contract or whether the “bond” is legal in HK (pprune sources say it isn’t) or whether you’d be pursued around the world by HKE, is for you to decide.

Like all airlines in Hong Kong, HKE is struggling to attract enough pilots with experience. In the current market, the number of guys failing training and of pilots leaving HKE will most likely continue (to increase?), particularly as Cathay, Oasis and Dragonair are recruiting heavily. Whether this is recognized by HKE as inevitably hurting the bottom line which then leads to pilot’s terms and conditions improving, (rostering, leave, allowances etc) remains to be seen.

[continue#1]

Nice post mate! :D
sounds like it will suit some people and not others. Maybe a good idea for me for a first jet job? 5000TT 2500 turbo prop :confused:

[Dan Winterland]

With that experience, try CX or KA if you're intending to come to HK.

And bonds aren't legal in HK which is why CX and KA don't bond. The only effect they have is if someone leaves to go to another HK carrier, and then they will have a very difficult time in court if the individual desides to contest it.

[beerboy]

Also watch out if you come to HK and decide that you want to leave for one of the better paid local airlines. HKA and HKE will not touch each others pilots(there have been movements in the past but that is now stopped) and Oasis will not take on any HKA pilots unless they've served their three years. KA and CX are a different matter, however I believe it says somewhere in the KA recruitment, that you need a reference from your present employer, so be nice while you're there!

[Labomba]

Very very good post from Jamie J indeed. Very factual.
For those interested to come in HK, pls read it a second time !
Happy ldgs,

Neneto

[bacou]

Very useful for all those wanting to move to HK.
I applied recently for a position at HKE and thought life was better there.
Better being aware of everything before coming.
What remains really positive as you say is that promotion can be expected and not so many airlines promotes foreigner.

[hongkongfooey]

No rants, but to add a few home truths to Jamies post.

TC and Central, consistently the worst pollution in the SAR, very few other places get into the " high " readings, that lovely view from Carribean coast is almost totally obscured 6 mths of the year. But lets face it, on the lousy hsng HKE and HKA pay, its almost a case of " what choice do i have " ( other than a cubby house in Central )

Money: a VB effo now earns 100K base, even with crap Oz tax they are at least as well off if not better, and as stated in another thread, dont come for a " quick command ", you will be in a long line of others that have been promised same.

If your partner/wife had a good job in Oz, good chance she wont get one here, even IT, Medical, etc require at least Cantonese and sometimes Mandarin as well, the only exception I can think of is teachers.

If its money you want, as mentioned, go to CX or KA, and earn ( inc benifits ) at least double up to tripple what HKE/HKA pay.

[hongkongfooey]

Unlike Hong Kong Airlines? (see pprune), HKE has promoted FOs to the left hand seat

What remains really positive as you say is that promotion can be expected and not so many airlines promotes foreigner.

Whilst the above is true, how many commands coming up with 3 A/C ? They are even wet leasing one off HKA.
All I am saying is, like the guys that have come to HKA for same, don't hold your breath, and if they tell you 12-18 months, bank on double ( then you'll be rapt if it happens sooner )

[FCKNG AIRTAXIMAN]

Hey,anybody knows if HKE are recruiting pilots?:)

[Jamie J]

Yes they are. Then again, how many airlines do you know that aren't recruiting?
For low experience pilots: Minimum requirements are dropping at many airlines worldwide (ask the recruitment agencies), certainly in HK, so you may find that after no interest for ages, suddenly you've got 3 interviews and an offer for an immediate start. It can be difficult to know what to do in those circumstances but in the present climate I would recommend trying to delay your start date if you think something better could be in the pipeline. Some people have missed opportunities by delaying a decision but others have regretted jumping at the first offer (there are a few at HKE and HKA) and as the market stands at the moment I would recommend holding back for what you want.

[FCKNG AIRTAXIMAN]

Yes its true, but I got an interview in HKA it was ok and suddendly..no news:confused:, so I'm still waiting for any proposal:ugh:

[hongkongfooey]

Taximan, was it in the last few weeks? Things recently came to a grinding halt when they decided the potential newbies would have to do a sim and tech quiz.
If you have to go through that to join HKA, might as well go for Dragon/CX

[Allou dri]

AIRTAXIMAN....they got more than 10 drivers sim completed on queue for line training! That may answer the new offer could be on hold at the moment.

[Jamie J]

In response to questions re FO T&Cs via PMs I wrote this:
Rosters:
They are supposed to be issued 2 weeks before the end of the month for the following month. Usually this is delayed and then sometimes amended and reissued within that month. In September the roster was issued on 26thish Sept and there were 2 revised rosters subsequently sent out. The dir of Flt Ops sent an email apologising so maybe it was a bad month and there was a lot of complaints. One guy I flew with said they often changed Days Off which is not good for lots of reasons. The reason it's not stable is that they are often changing routes/schedules, lots of training, newish company (recent change of fleet) so systems aren't as established, new personnel (in the office as well as pilots and cabin crew) due to expansion and large staff turnover.
Manuals say;
1 day off in 7
2 consecutive days off in 14
average 28 DO in 12 weeks.
In actual fact most FOs (the hour builders) are complaining that they're not getting enough flying. In the first 12 months expect only 250-400 hrs at the moment cos the training is so delayed, then maybe 500-600? but noone can really give you reliable info on that as things change all the time.
Only one night stop (at the moment!) which is actually 2 nights + a day in a hotel in the middle of china. Allowance is HK300. No sector pay.
Junior FO pay HK$43000/month + 2000 "housing" allowance
Senior FO HK$45500 +4000.
Some medical cover. No education allowance for kids. No Loss of Licence insurance, free uniform, buy your own torch! That's it.
Call +852 3151 1800 to confirm this and for any other questions.
Full pay starts from getting HK licence, approx a week after base training and HKCAD exams are complete (3 months? after start date) To be SFO you need HK ATPL which requires 2800hrs.

[RonAir]

I've just completed my jaa me/cpl/ir in the UK before being shipped out here by the wife. House/school/kids all taken care of and right to work in HK included in spouses package so lack of benefits is not too much of an issue yet, but I only have 250TT, is it worth even applying to these guys, or do I have to go back to UK and find some hours doing taxi work (it doesn't look like there is any smallplane action here..).

Any tips would be useful..

[pilotinasia]

Looks like HKE has a much better deal compared to HKA's.

News says in HKA you need a HK ATPL with 4000hrs total time + 1000 hrs jet time to be senior fo. Can someone confirm if this is true ?

But as for $, lifestyle & career consider KA & CX.

[cpahka]

lifestyle @ KA :confused:, just an average 8 GDO a month, hardly get 3 consecutive G in a row!

[hongkongfooey]

Looks like HKE has a much better deal compared to HKA's.

True, except that HKA pay 15% of salary, as a bonus, after 3 years service, big difference :ok:

Ron, can only speak for HKA, but I think definitely not, sorry.

[TAC inop.]

Hi fellas
Promised a command interview when they come up next....any idea when that will be? everyone is delightfuly vague....and whats the skinny on the offered wage for a command?
thanks
TAC

[RonAir]

thanks hkf, it's what I thought, but any ideas as to how I can move forward...

[hongkongfooey]

Ron, mate, I know very little about HK aviation, but I think you will struggle big time to get a job here with 250 hours, maybe as things get worse with the pilot shortage that may change. If it does change I would think you woould have to get a type rating either 320 or 737. It might be worth trying the likes of Air Macau etc, I dont know what else to suggest?
Anyone ?

TAC, I am not HKE but HKA very similar, as discussed above, Skipper package around 75000hkd/month all up plus a bit of medical, stuff all holidays, sick pay or providence, basically one of the lowest paid ( inc corp ) jet jobs around. O/T after 70 hrs at around 1000/hr.

Surprised you offered a comand interview with HKE as all the talk here they dont do that, like HKA, so what gives HKE boys ???

[hongkongfooey]

Sorry, meant that HKE were supposed to be better for FOs than HKA because they only upgrade their own guys, clearly not the case if TAC been offered DEC ??

[cpahka]

Better than HKE/HKA, but lifestyle at Dragonair is cr@p!

[khomekuh]

Guys ! Seek another job! Hong Kong Express is rubbish! Believe me !

[dingo222]

so whats the best overall hk fo job with someone that has an FAA ATP 3000 tt with 1000 pic on a t-prop? OR should I hold out and get more time first? Lots of conflicting ideas around here

[hongkongfooey]

Dingo, its a no brainer KA or CX.
You will effectively earn double at KA than HKE/HKA and whilst the :mad:hit artists at HKE/HKA tell you a command will come alot quicker....IT WONT!!
When you eventually do get a command, asuming they dont run out of pilots and close down, you will have the pleasure of still earning significantly less than a KA,CX, Oasis FO/SO.:{

On the bright side, free 737 endorsement :hmm:

[Jamie J]

For those who have sent PMs to me asking for more info, here is some more recent thoughts (to be read alongside my opening thread written in September 07):

Housing - infact average rentals increased 25% last year in HK and are predicted to be 25-30% this year. This is hurting because its by far the biggest expensive for people living here.

HKA/HKE new deal - HKE and HKE have merged management although operations remain seperate. Both sets of pilots have been offered amendments to their (different!) contracts. I can only speak for HKE pilots but judging by the reaction at meeting to discuss the amendments, they are extremely disappointed/angered. It offers very little for most pilots,( no pay increase) other than a 15% gratuity after 3 years. Pilots will continue to leave and management will hope they can continue to recruit from Indonesia, Phillipines etc (perhaps Adam Air pilots?!).

Other reasons to leave are many but for Capts include roster instabilty and very late issue, no commuter contract, lack of leave. For FOs, concern they will not get a command due to many DE Capts and low priority for an overstretched training Dept.

Apologies for the gloomy news but I have to be honest and say I can't recommend coming here IN THE CURRENT JOB MARKET.

[Allou dri]

just heard those jumped ship are begging to return and couple offered as capt.:confused: what a good job MF:{

[flycold]

how much is the tax in hongkong?
HKD45000 for f/o salary is after tax or before tax?
and could sombody summarize living cost in hongkong?
especially housing. this is most important.
company just provide HKD2000 for housing? :bored:
Thanks!:ok:

[hongkongfooey]

Flycold, the figure is pre tax, tax is basically 15%.
You can get a decent place for around 12-15K/month.
You can survive on HKA/HKE salary as long as that's all u want to do, survive.:eek:

[NotHere]

You can get a decent place for around 12-15K/month.
You can survive on HKA/HKE salary as long as that's all u want to do, survive.:eek:

Guess the same applies to those who wish to be bonded.......:ok: USD35000???? .......:}

Happy landings

[mythbuster]

Jamie J ,

So what has changed in the last 3 years ? Answer : Absolutely nothing !
What will change within the next 3 years ? Plenty, you probably won't have a job.

[MatRempit69]

Not Here

Understand there is no training bond in HKG. := Is it legal ? :(

Betul ke??

[hongkongfooey]

Not, the bond is unrecoverable, but then they like to tell you it's a loan, they are that :mad:ing stupid they think this changes everything :ugh:

[Jamie J]

Mat Rempit69,

The HKE Pilots Association recently sought clarification on the legality of bonds in HK. In short; if you sign the "Training Agreement" it is part of your contract and you are required to pay for your training ( US$ 36000 pro rata over 3 years ) nothing in HK Law prevents an employer from doing this.

Flycold,

For goodness sake, don't come to HK until you've researched rental costs yourself. See my first posting on this thread. HK$12-15k a month is about right if you live in Tung Chung and are single. I pay HK$38k for an old, scruffy apartment which is smaller and 5 times more expensive than the apartment I last rented in Australia. I live on Hong Kong Island though and can afford it cos my wife has a better paid job than me.

[Jamie J]

Most of what has been posted previously is still true, but;

In the last 2 months the Dir Flt Ops, Chief Pilot and President have all resigned. HKE and HKA continue to lose millions. Some have faith that billionaire Stanley Ho and other major shareholder Hainan Airlines will continue their support, others are worried that the plug could be pulled any minute.

Plans for A330s next year have been cancelled, instead rumour has it that HKE will start a B747 cargo operation soon (wet lease to start with), pending CAD approval.

Most pilots signed the new contract. Experienced Capts were the only real winners, others just signed to reduce their notice from 6 months to 3. HKE pilots now get overtime pay above 50 hrs but the annual free tickets to your home country have been removed.

Rostering is appalling. The roster is now published 2 weeks at a time due to so many changes. I had 31 changes in June from the original roster! We are also doing a lot more nightstops, (HK$290 per night allowance).

Command upgrades have been stopped "until further notice".

Hope this is helpful.

[hongkongfooey]

Jimbo, FWIW, the lawyer most of the HKA guys used told us the bond was not legal, also you can not " sign your rights away ", in other words, if it is in the HK labour ordinance ( which it is ) you signing a bogus contract does not allow HKE to take away your rights.
Surely if your lawyer was correct, HKA would be chasing the 30 odd guys that have left for their bonds ? 30 X 250,000= a lot of money :ouch:

[Major-Domo]

Can anyone tell me what's going on with this company ? With the Director of flt. ops. and Chief Pilot both resigning , can it really be such a basket case ?

[DrahNa]

What's their FO mins flight time req? Thanks in advance.

[MOETMAN]

DrahNa,

Man you can't be that desperate.

[DrahNa]

Well, actually I am.... I'm tired of eating peanut butter and jelly.
:E:ugh::8

[MOETMAN]

So you would prefer a c**k sandwich ?

[DrahNa]

:}Boy...that's not what you eat there right?:}:ugh::E

[Jamie J]

Hongkongfooey,
The HKEPA would be very interested if a different lawyer reckons bonds are illegal cos they spent a lot cash getting a legal opinion. Why not get in touch with them?
Agreed, the land of the land prevails over any employment contract. So which part of the Employment Ordinance says bonds are illegal?

[MOETMAN]

http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gifBoy...that's not what you eat there right?http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif:ugh:http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

Just ask Jamie J .

[hongkongfooey]

JJ, cant remember exactly where it is in the ordinance, but it is there.
Ask any of the guys that have left HKA recently for the name of the lawyer.
I am also led to believe that HKE CANNOT ask for more notice of resignation than they would give if they gave you the bullet. I believe ( unless it changed recently ) that they required 6 months notice, but would only give you 1 months notice if they terminated you, not on.
On top of everything else, lets face it, the reason CX and KA don't have bonds is not because they are great people, its because they can't, surely if they could they would ??
As I said, to my knowledge HKA have not been successful in gaining 1 bond from an ex employee, this in itself says a lot.

[404 Titan]

Jamie J

You also might like to know it was one of the main reasons CX has its crew for AHK based in Singapore. These crew are bonded and bonding isn’t illegal in Singapore but most definitely is in Hong Kong. No contract anyone signs in Hong Kong will ever make bonding legal.

[Jamie J]

Harmony,
I certainly hope that if you read all my threads that you will see that I don't just critisise.

Rostering is incredibly complex. You have only mentioned a very small number of the factors that have to be considered and that cause changes, so I have great admiration for rosterers. But from what I have seen, there are now more aircraft and more pilots but less rostering staff. They seem to have little experience and/or training, they are given less and less time due to constant changes to the schedule and they don't have any professional rostering software.

This is a result of short term cost saving and yet its knock on effects cost the company MORE. Flights have been cancelled or delayed due to mistakes, pilot utilisation is certainly lower than it could be and the CAD have now noticed that illegal rosters have sometimes been produced.

We all want improved efficiency and a profitable airline but the current management seem preoccupied with passing on the blame, making short sighted cost cuts and pressuring staff to produce more and more for less and less reward, rather than looking at how systems can be improved or listening to their staff.

[fiveoh]

I have heard stories of Asia being a good place to hour build frm many pilots. Currently 19 in canada and have finished ppl. After my commercial ME/IFR what is out there for me in hk. airlines like HKE, HKA, CX what are their f/o minimum reqd. To clarify my question, could a low hr rookie such as my self be employed in hk, with airlines like HKE or HKA.? Also if someone could chart out what I would need to fly with these guys eg: Atpl, Citizenship, visas, passport etc. What would a guy need?

Cheers boys and girls, and happy landings.

[Jamie J]

In short, no, you wouldn't get in with any airlines in HK without at least a couple of thousand hours. There is no GA to speak of either.